Announcement BW Cloyster Test

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dice

dice

is a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a defending World Cup of Pokemon Champion
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Hello gamers,

In response to the discussion amongst the BW OU Hub, SPL XV BW Discussion, and BW OU Tiering Discussion threads, the council has decided to call for a Cloyster retest. We recognize how the previous multi-pronged suspect may have skewed results, and players across the board have indicated how it is a polarizing element which bears discussion.

Cloyster provides a punishing +6 stat boost in one turn, with ample set-up against the Ground-type staples in the tier like Landorus-Therian and Gliscor. The SPL metagame introduced mixed Life Orb sets with Hydro Pump and Hidden Power Grass allowing Cloyster to bypass common checks like Keldeo, Magnezone, and Heatran, making it an even heavier burden while teambuilding. In response, defensive techs like Sitrus Ferrothorn and Earth Power Landorus-Therian emerged—the usage of which points toward a potentially problematic element. Cloyster also has access to Spikes and Explosion, which have yet to see use, indicating it may have untapped potential as well.

This suspect doesn't preclude us taking other action in the tier, and the council is still keeping a pulse on the health of the metagame. Following the conclusion of the Cloyster suspect, we will be surveying the playbase to help determine if any future action is needed. Thank you for your patience and continued discussion about the tier. Please understand that we are working through large bouts of differing opinions in order to make informed decisions.

Anyone who has met any of the below thresholds is automatically qualified to vote from tournament placements.

1) 6+ games or 3+ wins in SPL XV
2) BW Cup VII top 8
3) Finals of BW Winter Seasonal
4) Overall 2023 BW Circuit top 16

A list of qualified voters can be seen below:

Fakes, SoulWind, Dark Eeveon, dice, sensei axew, Rewer, elodin, jisoo, watashi, Nalorium, Finchinator, mael, GaryTheGengar, Mako, Star, Garay Oak, Raiza, Feaniix, Quarante8, zaaya, 3d, Shoka, Rubyblood, Goootzinho, Garay Oak, Kristyl, marsandback, Sergi, Finals of BW Winter Seasonal TBD

Much like last suspect, we will be offering a ladder component for community members to have a chance to vote whom do not immediately qualify. You must create a new alt with the prefix BWC and achieve a rating of 1600+ and a GXE of 85+ simultaneously. Please do not continue to ladder on your account after you achieve the reqs as we may not be able to verify that you achieved them if your rating/GXE ends up dropping.

The deadline for posting ladder reqs is Sunday, May 5th at 10:00 PM GMT -4, after which a voting thread will be created. This thread will remain open for discussion about this suspect ONLY, not other potential bans. Please refer to the other discussion threads in this subforum (linked above) for those purposes.
 
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Ladder voting reqs not carrying over from the last vote 3 months ago seems like an odd decision. Some people have reqs here from far longer ago than January

For reference, on the gems revote we included the full list from the first vote + added in people who had gained reqs through more recent tours. It was impossible to vote in the first one and miss the second
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gems-in-bw-ou.3703711/#post-9456311

And same for bw sleep
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...es-remain-banned-sleep-clause-lifted.3662023/

and sm uu quagsire, tons of examples really
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-uu-stall-2-the-quaggening.3694848/#post-9231894

looks like this might be the only revote i can find in PR that doesnt carry reqs over

Very thankful to have a revote to begin with but would be interested in the justification behind this, feels like its gone against the normal process

sincerely
Someone who doesnt want to have to ladder for reqs twice on the same mon 100 days apart
 
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Ladder reqs have never carried over anywhere (or at least OUs) afaik. Even if CG OU has two suspects back to back (which has happened this gen), nothing carries over. The Gems/Volc/Cloy original voter pool did carry over, but that had no ladder component and was also a straight up revote on an identical slate, which isn't true here. This is a new vote and will be a new voter pool, even if some of the tour reqs obviously remain the same from 4 months ago.
 
One idea that I've heard flying around about Cloyster being a positive force for the metagame is that it should be available to punish Ground-types for using "safe" moves. I very much disagree with this sentiment for a few reasons:
  • Cloyster very rarely gets used on teams with any sort of a backbone; it gets used almost exclusively on hyper offense teams that would almost rather get the opportunity for any safe switch, be it in for a KO or something else. That is to say that these HO teams almost would rather force a loss of a Pokemon for the opportunity to set up on a Pokemon that doesn't threaten it (that's one of the reasons these teams use suicide leads like Aerodactyl, Landorus-T, Azelf, etc). Contrast this to a balanced or even offensive team, where they want to keep their Pokemon healthy to switch into opposing Pokemon, so when they lose a Pokemon, their gameplay is getting chipped away at. If Lando-T or Gliscor KOes my Tyranitar and I send out Keldeo, while I do get the opportunity of a free switch and move on these Ground-types, I've also lost a part of my team's gameplan (having Tyranitar to Pursuit Latios, for instance). This, on the face of it, isn't inherently a reason why Cloyster should get banned (after all, most hyper offense teams operate in this fashion), except for...
  • Cloyster's newfound set diversity means that that one turn can lead to a huge swing in momentum in the game. During SPL this year, Dark Eeveon brought a mixed Cloyster set that is capable of destroying Pokemon that would check its regular physical set (Dark Eeveon vs Nalorium, week 4):
    Code: 
    Cloyster @ Expert Belt Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 204 Atk / 252 SpA / 52 Spe
Rash Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Grass]
    (set provided on Discord by peng)
    The existence of Hydro Pump and HP Grass on this set lets Cloyster destroy the Water and Steel types that would otherwise be able to (barely) handle its main set. Imagine stranding your Lando-T and Cloyster comes in. You pivot around it, you even get an Intimidate onto it so Rotom-W or Keldeo should be more easily able to handle it, and then it pops HP Grass and now your main Cloyster check is dead. This is on a Pokemon that already has the capability to sweep entire teams that is now able to remove its checks for the benefit for itself or its teammates (for instance, Scizor and Volcarona massively benefit when the opposing Keldeo is removed).

    +2 252+ SpA 30 IVs Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 88+ SpD Bronzong: 237-280 (70.1 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    0 Atk 30 IVs Bronzong Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 130-154 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ SpA 30 IVs Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 384-453 (136.6 - 161.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ SpA 30 IVs Expert Belt Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 533-629 (138 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ SpA 30 IVs Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 349-412 (124.1 - 146.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252+ SpA 30 IVs Expert Belt Cloyster Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Rotom-Wash: 269-317 (88.4 - 104.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ SpA 30 IVs Expert Belt Cloyster Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 326-386 (100.9 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ SpA 30 IVs Expert Belt Cloyster Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowbro: 358-422 (91 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ SpA 30 IVs Expert Belt Cloyster Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 288-341 (71.4 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +2 252+ SpA 30 IVs Expert Belt Cloyster Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 298-353 (77.6 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    This is already on top of sets that pack coverage to specifically destroy the Pokemon that would otherwise like to check it (Spike Cannon, Natural Gift, etc.).
  • Cloyster warps the builder too much; the realization of Cloyster's ability to just randomly kill everything on your team has forced players to specifically tech their team against it and give it 0 room for error. Earth Power Lando-T and Sitrus Berry Ferrothorn are two sets that top players have come up with that, while it improves your team's matchup into Cloyster, makes them worse against much of the rest of the metagame (Lando-T would much rather use its STAB Ground move to actually push damage into Reuniclus and Ferrothorn, Ferrothorn would rather have Leftovers or Rawst Berry to absorb Scald burns).
I don't think there is something inherently wrong with the ability to use "safe" moves with good Pokemon, whereas the ability to set up into a position where you can take out multiple Pokemon or even sweep depending on the set is very concerning for the tier. You still have options to punish these Ground-types even without Cloyster (even on hyper offense teams, which can have Air Balloon Pokemon or Dragonite to take advantage of Lando-T or Gliscor), and all Cloyster does in the current metagame is force matchup issues that can spiral into instant game wins.
 
Star

dpp ou latias may be the last old gen OU to have a ladder component which had a revisit vote, in this case the original voterbase was carried over + expanded to cover new tournaments

Voter id thread
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-ou-suspect-test-voter-identification-thread.3644862/

Revote
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-latias-test-second-voting.3651953/

Current gen precedent should surely be thrown out as the only examples of vote revisits on Pokemon lie either side of DLC dropping (cinderace, gliscor etc), not simply lying either side of 1 tournament to correct for a bad initial vote
 
why would the 2023 bw circuit top 16 and even the 2023 bw cup top 8 be grandfathered in to vote on a retest but not those who laddered and got reqs for the original test in 2024? isn't the whole point of this retest to give those who were screwed by voting in a botched suspect the chance to revote without a multi-pronged test? seems pretty intuitive to let everyone who voted last test vote again by default
 
Star said:
Ladder reqs have never carried over anywhere (or at least OUs) afaik. Even if CG OU has two suspects back to back (which has happened this gen), nothing carries over. The Gems/Volc/Cloy original voter pool did carry over, but that had no ladder component and was also a straight up revote on an identical slate, which isn't true here. This is a new vote and will be a new voter pool, even if some of the tour reqs obviously remain the same from 4 months ago.
Click to expand...
as someone who will have to ladder for reqs anyways, I implore you to just let reqs for the same pokemon carry over considering this revote is only happening because of the first botched suspect
 
When there is currently a Policy Review thread (with massive support) about the constant overreach of admins in oldgen tiering about "precedent", the wrong move to do is to then immediately overreach and try to force an objectively bad decision about "precedent" on the oldgen suspect test, that nobody seems to want

Please change this decision and do not just double down
 
Yes ABR , but many people (including myself) changed their stance on cloyster due to realizing how easy it smashes through common counterplay (slowbro, keldeo & magnezone) with its new mixed set. This is why we are pushing for a new suspect atp. If it stays in OU (which it wont) this is the last time (im very sure about that) cloyster is up for debate, since i doubt it'll see new moveset developments as impactful as this one (mixed grass sets)
 
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I intend to vote ban on Cloyster (vote going up soon btw). Contrary to some, I do not think the metagame needs a massive overhaul, but just some quality-of-life improvements. Cloyster is the primary one.

Initially I voted DNB before SPL and I do not really regret that vote, but seeing people pop off with the special set made it lame as Jirachi became the only real overlap in counterplay. It is ridiculous having woud-be established checks like Keldeo or Magnezone blown up by HP Grass or Hydro Pump all while retaining most of the effectiveness Cloyster clasically has with the physical set. And that set thankfully still is the more common one, but the strain on teambuilding just adds another unwelcome layer to things. It will not be doomed if it stays because there is still a big opportunity cost in using Cloyster, but definitely one of the things standing in the way of consistency in the tier right now.
 
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