BW Viability Ranking, mk. 2

[We Three Kings]

I think Gliscor is easily A. Taunt Protect is deadly, especially with speed. SD with Magnezone still runs through fatter sand and SubToxic pulls miracles vs offensive teams. Most effective with Spikes.

Rotom-W is a better water than Slowking and Jellicent. Annoys rain and gets momentum. Slowking's best niche in my opinion is as a Psychic+Keldeo check on weatherless, but the Pursuit weakness is huge and Ferrothorn still Spikes all over it in rain. Jellicent is decent, but Keldeo trends doesn't help it and it needs speed to use Taunt effectively. It doesn't spinblock well either.

Mew takes status and is ran over quite easily I think, could probably drop. I think defensive Starmie is awful, so I assume it's A because of the offensive sets. Otherwise I would easily drop that too.

Excadrill's three sets are all good, definitely A+. I think offensive Breloom is not that good, and while I adore Bulky Toxic Orb, it is not A+ at all. Terrakion and Reuniclus could both realistically be A, but I can see why they wouldn't be. Trappers are always hard to rank, but Magnezone could also have a case for A. It does still give away too many layers vs Ferrothorn rain though.

Toxicroak is excellent, SubToxic especially. Should be in the same ranking as the other rain sweepers.

Bulky Scizor is pretty bad, but offensive could probably keep it in A-. Not really sure, would like other opinions.

 

[Wizard]

Who is in charge of this thread? Some nominations which are generally agreed upon (Toxicroak, Tornadus, Rotom-W, Excadrill for example) should definitely be implemented. It's really sad to see how this thread doesn't even get 1/10th the attention the ADV Viability Rankings thread receives.
And yes A-rank should get a complete overhaul. Things like Rotom, Tornadus, Gliscor, Mew, and Excadrill are examples of Pokemon that should either be added to or removed from A. Other than that, the entire S-rank should be rediscussed imho (I believe there are ~8 top pokemons right now -- tyra chomp exca tios ferro poli lando keldeo, but I'm not 100% sure about who should be S and who should be A+). This is just my opinion though

And btw, what about the exit surveys performed by the council? I think they would be valuable resources for this thread and for the community in general, if they were to be shared.

 

[phosphor]

I'm really confused on what Lapras does that warrants B-

EDIT: it's a cheesetrapping ferrothorn set with whirlpool hydrarest and perish song that was supposed to be used with dug, I think it should no longer be on the list

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Thundurus-T: B+ —> A-
It’s my first time posting in here in a good while. I’d like to nom Thund to A- due to the fact it smashes rain very well and it’s seen some tour use as of late, most notably letting Finch sweep McMeghan with the agility boltbeam focus blast set which can also due an adequate job pressuring certain sand mons like non chople tar after agility. Plus, it’s better than certain other A- mons rn imo like scizor. Altho redoin all of A may not be a bad idea.

 

[Jimmy Turtwig]

It's been a while since someone posted here, but with the recent Sand Rush ban/Excadrill nerf the time feels right to make some changes to the BW viability rankings. Not sure who's going to actually update this thread now that the OP has been Unjustly Slayered, but at least some discussion can be sparked up about the direction in which the metagame is heading.

Rises:

Heatran A -> A+

Heatran has in my opinion always been great in BW. The ability to switch into Ferrothorn and Skarmory, arguably the best defensive mons in the tier, and force them out simply by showing its face is incredibly useful. Of course this is not exclusive to Heatran, but unlike say Keldeo, it’s not remotely concerned with anything these two can throw at him. It’s also quite versatile, with specially defensive sets being a real headache to play around for most teams, plus it’s great at keeping stealth rock up in the long run. More offensive 3 attacks sets with HP Ice are also really difficult to switch into, and Heatran is great at grabbing momentum precisely against those defensive teams where you need a way to make progress in your gameplan. The ban of sand rush Excadrill means all your well-earned momentum and hazards no longer disappear in the blink of an eye when playing vs rain offense, which can only be to the benefit of the bulkier sand teams Heatran thrives on.

Gliscor A- -> A

This is the one change I feel most strongly about. Gliscor is simply put one of the best mons in the current meta. Taunt shuts down a lot of its would-be switchins, and with spikes immunity, poison heal and one of protect/roost it basically never gets worn down by residual damage. What does get worn down though are all the mons you use to force Gliscor out, like Keldeo, Rotom-W and Latios. It’s quite telling that most people use ice fang as their coverage move, simply to have a way to hurt opposing Gliscor. That’s not to say there are no other options though: Toxic limits its counters to just one, namely itself (unless you want to bring up Gengar or something), Knock Off is generally annoying, U-Turn is a nice way to grab momentum and you can even give it Stealth Rock if you’re desperate. There are some other Gliscor sets like SpDef Swords Dance and SubToxic (with magnezone support) that are more situational but good nonetheless. While it’s naturally not as great vs rain as it is vs sand, you have other pokemon to pick up the slack there. All things considered Gliscor has never been better and should rise a rank.

Drops:

Keldeo S -> A+

This is probably a controversial opinion, but I don’t think Keldeo should be S rank. It obviously has many positive traits like a great speed tier, high power that can be further bolstered by rain and a much more solid defensive typing than its physical counterpart Terrakion. However, the amount of natural and common switchins to Keldeo on both rain and sand builds is so very high. There’s the ubiquitous Amoonguss, Latios (more of a check), Tentacruel or Toxicroak for rain teams, Slowking/Slowbro, Jellicent, bulky Starmie, Gastrodon and the occasional Celebi. A lot of these can be pursuited or otherwise worn down of course, but there’s a cost to pursuiting as well: your Tyranitar takes entry hazards, a scald here, some rocky helmet there. This weakens your position versus threats like Alakazam and Latios for which you really want to have a healthy Tyranitar. Wearing down counters via Scald burns, the recently introduced Toxic + Protect and entry hazards can be done but takes time, and Keldeo itself is just as susceptible to being worn down as its numerous switchins.

Breloom A+ -> A

Hmm Mr. Mushroom is a weird one. On the one hand Spore is broken, but every good team is prepared to deal with sleep in some way. Breloom’s lack of speed and bulk really hinder it, and while it can be quite menacing in some situations, it can also be completely dead weight in others (meaning vs sleep talk Amoonguss). It’s just nowhere near as consistently performing or metagame defining as any of the other pokemon in A+, hence the call for a drop.

Slowking A -> A-

Dropping Him is partially to have some consistency in the rankings. It makes little sense to me that Slowbro is down in B+ while his kingly brother occupies the royal halls of A rank. They are quite similar pokemon, with only their Def and SpDef base stats being swapped and Slowking having access to Nasty Plot as notable differences. While Slowking is better at slacking off Draco Meteor and tanking powerful rain boosted hits, Slowbro is a great option in his own right to really eat hits from Terrakion, Landorus-T and Garchomp well. Nasty Plot can be a niche way to deal with Reuniclus, but to me this is not enough to separate them two ranks. Also, is Slowking really better or at least more common than the likes of Tornadus, Tentacruel, Terrakion, Rotom-W and Reuniclus? If not then the rankings should reflect this.

Scizor A- -> B+

Don’t have much to say about this one other than he’s not that great, please don’t use him much. For every game it wins with a brilliant SD sweep or by pursuit trapping an important team member, there are 15 others where it is a complete liability and an invitation for powerful Water types, Skarmory, Heatran, Garchomp or Landorus-T to mess with your day. Quite Hood but ultimately Ungood.

 

[z0mOG]

I noticed the OP of this thread hasn't been changed since April of 2018 which is almost a year ago... That's not very friendly to new users looking to get into BW so maybe this could be updated? I'd happily join a VR team for this tier if there is one, won a smogtour with BW as a tier after all. Looking at the top of this list it looks outright outdated so I have some rise/falls to suggest (ones which Jimmy didn't touch on, absolutely agree on Keldeo/Breloom/Slowking/Heatran, and would bump Gliscor up to A+ myself).

Rises:

A+ to S
Ferrothorn has been seeing insane usage in both SPL and (from what I was willing to gather from) SmogTour. #1 in both. With the sand rush ban nerfing the best spinner in the tier, dual hazards ferro improved and is without question the most important mon on rain (bar toed) and one of the best splashmons on sand too. The only teams that wouldn't particularly benefit from Ferrothorn would be weatherless HO or sun stall, which only make up a very small portion of the BW meta. The splashability and perfect utility it provides definitely warrant an S rank.

A- to A (Maybe A+?)
When you think of BW rain right now, you HAVE to think of Tentacruel. The only rain teams that are even considered without tenta are balls to the walls offenses, which are not particularly in favor. Being one of the best Keld answers, as well as soft-answering a lot of other common threats like Ferrothorn and Toed, there is really no reason to ever not want Tenta on rain. Toxic spikes are as powerful as ever, and with sand rush drill being gone, that's one potent spinner down. Another great aspect of tenta is having decent set variety between toxic or toxic spikes and protect or substitute, which all dismantle different teams differently. Because tenta has access to spin and we are in a meta where spikes are as prevalent as they are, it gives rain a much larger edge over spin-less sand teams. It seems people are even catching on to Tenta being a good pick on sun to be stronger against other rains https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-424535.

A- to A+
Jimmy's post covered it all so I won't retrace his steps. I feel it should be higher than just A for how much of a presence it has in the tier right now, though.

A- to A
Rotom-Wash is very clearly the second best pivot in the tier after Landorus-T. It fares extremely well vs. both sand and rain, as well as having a notable presence vs weatherless as well. It also decent splashability, finding a home on any sand team as well as being a good offensive presence on vanilla offense with perhaps a scarf or 3-attack set. The coverage of wisp+pump+volt switch is just too good in this ferro/glis/rain BO meta to ever want to turn down the idea of using Rotom really.



Falls:

A to B+
Yeah... Starmie is not in a great place any more. It really only gets popularity on HO these days for being a spinner and keldeo check. Ferrothorn, Tenta, Slowking, Jellicent etc. are all too prevalent for Starmie to really have a ton of offensive presence in most matchups. Rain has also ditched Starmie as a go-to spinner for Tenta, except for on the rarer full-offense teams. Despite that I think it should drop hard, I'll acknowledge that it still has merit as, again, a staple on offense due to being the best offensive spinner. However, as that playstyle dies out, so must Starmie :(

A to A-/B+
Not exactly sure how Mew was in A to begin with really. Mew has, to my knowledge, never really had particularly good usage nor been too dominant in tournaments. I think it has merit as a utility taunter still, but it just takes too much damage from all the strong breakers in the tier without having resists. Latios, Keldeo, Garchomp etc. just don't give a shit about a Mew in the way. It's ultimately a pretty matchup-fishy pick and should drop for that primary reason.

A to B+
Also have 0 clue why Mienshao is A rank. I suppose it's okay as a scarfer and as a life orb breaker, but it just doesn't get much usage nor tournament presence. Not to mention with Tentacruel and Sp. Def Gliscor being as good as they are, it really only breaks with the life orb set, meaning it's slow and hard to bring in.

A- to B
Gyarados should drop for a lot of the same reasons as Starmie, so I'll keep it brief. Rain offense is just not as good as it used to be and Gyarados really doesn't need to be used anywhere else. CB set is still a strong lure, and DD can win outright with the right matchups, but reliability just is not a thing here. It hasn't even seen a game of usage this SPL for crying out loud :(


I will likely update this in the meantime as well. I play and watch a lot of BW so this is a tier I'd love to help improve where I can!

 

[LuckOverSkill]

Jirachi should drop to A...or even A-. The mon has too much to do for its capabilities. Excadrill is a headache, Rain Ferrothorn is everywhere (yes, you can run SubCM and setup on it, but then you still need to check so many boxes to do anything with it), Heatran is rising in usage. At this point I'm afraid the only usable set are defensive ones. They are pretty good though at stopping threats they are supposed to stop, as long as you carry U-Turn or a way to punish Ferrothorn switchins.

Reuniclus should move up to A. SPL is showing how powerful the mon is. I find peculiar that Alakazam is a whole 2 tiers above it, they should be in the same tier...speaking of which, Alakazam should probably drop to A. Too much Scarf Landorus-T, it doesn't OHKO Ferrothorn, ChopleTar is still everywhere, Rotom-W is annoying, and you have to hit multiple Focus Blasts.

Thundurus-T should move up to A-, or even A. With the rain balance teams that are running rampant in the tier it's back to being pretty good. It's biggest problem is (again) hitting Focus Blast.

Magnezone to A-, too much Ferrothorn for this mon to not be amazing. The mon has always been a staple of BW anyway, with all the DragMag teams you see around.

Yes to dropping Scizor, Gyarados, Slowking, and Mew (though I think Mew is still unexplored, but we can always put it back up if we get to find a better way of using it), I'm against dropping Starmie. Yes, it takes prediction to use (not even, Ferrothorn takes 40 from Hydro in rain), and yes, some games it just dies after firing off 2 attacks, but having a fast Pokémon with that kind of coverage is invaluable in BW. I suggest running 4 attacks on it if you're really that scared of getting walled. Psyshock annihilates Tentacruel, Rotom-W, and Amoonguss. I'm really enjoying running Mienshao right now, so I don't really want it to drop either. Keldeo should probably drop to A+ as well.

Yes to Gliscor, Ferrothorn, and Tentacruel rising. The Sun package (Ninetales Cresselia Chansey) could also rise up to B+ honestly.

 

[MANNAT]

A to B+
Also have 0 clue why Mienshao is A rank. I suppose it's okay as a scarfer and as a life orb breaker, but it just doesn't get much usage nor tournament presence. Not to mention with Tentacruel and Sp. Def Gliscor being as good as they are, it really only breaks with the life orb set, meaning it's slow and hard to bring in.

I agreed with most of the rest of this post, but I definitely have to disagree with this one. Mienshao is still a prolific offensive threat that can either bust through bulky offensive and balanced sand teams with a powerful Life Orb set or offer an insane amount of utility and cleaning potential with a frightening Choice Scarf set. The relative nonexistence of Gengar as well as the significant decrease in Jellicant leaves it much more free to throw out HJks and just generally wreak havoc against the standard teams flooding the metagame. Tent obviously a solid check to Mienshao, but rain usage is significantly down from past SPLs, and it lacks reliable recovery, so its existence isn't nearly as troublesome as you suggest. Additionally, from my experience physically defensive Gliscor seems to be more common than specially defensive (although spdef has been picking up a little bit with the inclusion of the fringe sun archetypes and rush drill ban), and that set gets cleanly 2HKO'd by HP Ice from Choice Scarf, even including Protect/PH shenanigans. Obviously, Mienshao isn't as meta defining as say Keldeo or Latios, but it's still a strong threat that dismantles common teams atm, so I'm fine with keeping in the A ranks.

Oh also as a side note, I think that rain offense definitely still has some potential to be really strong, especially with people like Ojama exploring alternative options as breakers like Breloom, it honestly just needs to be explored more. Regardless, the rain HO mons should still drop because they haven't really been successfully utilized in this meta.

 

[Rewer]

I've spammed bw games a lot the past few months, thought with not much success so far in spl unfortunately, but I'll drop my thoughts here too why not.

Rises:

Ferrothorn - A+ to S: Yes, ferro is the best pokemon in the tier right now. It's a staple on nearly all formes of rain (except the ones with defensive jirachi instead + something like bulky loom) and its very common on sand as well. Spikes are a huge part of the tier, and this thing is the best spiker for sure. A big plus of ferro is that its actually a safe switch for most latios sets in the modern meta (before they used trick or hp fire, but now they are mostly sleep talk, dragon pulse, no moves to threaten ferro).

Heatran - A to A+: Like jimmy said, forces out a lot of popular defensive pokemons, can take a lot of hits, can hit pretty hard too, has a versatile moveset that can beat a lot of different switchins, theres just way too many redeeming qualities about this pokemon and while by the time the thread was posted it wasnt too popular, A does no service to him. He should rise.

Tentacruel - A- to A+: A+ may sound too high for him, but i dont think so. Tentacruel is the go-to spinner on pretty much every rain team right now. Toxic Spikes keeps a lot of mons in sand at bay and the only reason its not as effective against rain is because they have their own cruel too. If you prefer toxic, thats also great because it can cripple many key pokemon such as rotom-w or jellicent, and if you get it on a breaker like hydreigon they are pretty much dead. You can also customize your defenses and speed depending on your team's needs. For how predominant it is on rain, I believe it deserves A+.

Gliscor - A- to A+: Fantastic pokemon and people finally stopped using the subtoxic protect set, wich is quite overrated. He's better as a staple on fat teams, be it sand fat, or the new sun stall, it has a gigantic versatility in its moveset, has probably about 12 viable moves it can run, but it mostly runs taunt to stops enemy spikes from going up and toxic cripples a lot of pokemon, and add that to the fact that this pokemon is literally immune to residual damage. Too many redeeming qualities to be here, it needs to go up.

Reuniclus - A- to A+: 80% win rate in spl as of week 8 speaks for itself. Reuniclus is the main win condition in bw right now, and also a fantastic cleaner especially with spikes up if you opt for the TR set. The traditional reuniclus answers of ancient times, such as spdef jirachi, cm roar latias, np celebi, cb ttar, cb scizor... are all pretty much nowhere to be seen or just plain bad. Reuniclus can sweep teams so effortlessly if given the chance and its tremendous effectiveness right now should be enough for A+.

Terrakion: A- to A: Has its flaws, but if Hydreigon is A, Terrakion should be too. It's still a fantastic breaker and many teams cannot switch into this thing or deal with sets like sd + protect. It's just a really strong pokemon that's easily crippled by residual damage, but it can do a lot of damage on its own. Should rise a bit.

Rotom-W - A- to A: Still has a lot of flaws, but it's the pivot you're looking for if you want space for your breakers, since its able to either volt on or cripple a lot of common pokemon, and the mons that usually abused it's presence are not common anymore, such as kyurem. I think A is a more accurate ranking for it.

Thundurus-T - B+ to A: Took the place of toxicroak as the main breaker of rain right now. Sub + 3 attacks is way too potent and just destroy many common teams in the meta once it gets going, and NP can work wonders too. It's not hard to get a sub with this thing either. Way more powerful than other pokemon in this ranking and definitely deserves a major rise.

Magnezone - B+ to A: Staple in pretty much every form of hyper offense, be it dragmag or screens or tailwind or whatever. Also a staple on sun stall teams, and not a half bad pokemon in a non-cheesy team. It removes ferrothorn, aka the main spiker of the tier right now, it also forces out defensive mons on its own and the chople berry can often come in clutch. Definitely deserves to go much higher.

Chansey and Xatu - B to B+: Stall has reinvented itself with moderate success, and we've seen a few variations of it in tour play, but these two are just stall staples so they should be higher for sure.

Azumarill - B- to B: This doesnt deserve to be this low at all, it's a great option for rain teams if you're looking for some really strong breaker + revenge killer and it's effectiveness is way higher than the other mons of this tier. Should most definitely rise.

Cloyster - C to B-: Yeah I know it failed hard on stage when I used it, but this thing just swept in many test games and with appropriate support its insanely deadly. Also has fairly decent amount of versatility in his moveset. Not a very solid mon, but I dont see why it should be in the worst tier of the VR when it can sweep so easily.

---

Drops:

Keldeo - S to A+: Definitely not near as good as it used to be, with rain infested by tentacruels, so many latios, jelli and amoongus being kinda popular too, and we keep saying how hard it is to spin and this pokemon takes spikes + sand... yeah it has many flaws so it's not worthy of S rank, but still a very deadly pokemon that can do a lot of works, so A+ sounds accurate.

Breloom - A+ to A: Dont get me wrong, the mushroom is still really strong, but people are much better prepared for sleep now, so it's just not as good as the other mons in A+.

Jirachi - A+ to A: Luck>skill described well why this should drop so read his post, although A- is way too harsh. It's still a great mon by it's versatility, support sets arent bad and it can still win games by itself with its sub sets once their checks are crippled. A sounds accurate for it.

Mienshao - A to A-: Still a decent mon too, but fallen out of favor for other breakers and revenge killers (such as scarf landorus-t). Wallbreaking with life orb mons hasnt been too common lately in general and its also super frail, feels like there are stronger options, and for the scarf set, other revenge killers are usually better. Not bad at all, but not as good as the other A mons, so it should drop.

Starmie - A to A-: Starmie doesnt seem to be in a good place right now. Sure it still hits like a truck but its frail and not very reliable as a spinner and usually not that hard to deal with as a breaker either, and the bulky spinning set faces direct competition from tentacruel and excadrill. Starmie is still decent but not too solid right now and should drop a tier imo.

Mew - A to A-: I think mew is underrated actually, it's still a pretty good mon that is really hard to kill sometimes and can win games by itself in some matchups, though it's also deadweight in others. I just think A is too high for it, but B- is too harsh, this thing can be really good. People also forget how versatile is this thing, so there's still a lot of nonsense potential here.

Gyarados - A- to B+: Not unviable, moxie scarf is probably the most viable set of this thing as a late game cleaner + revenge killer (yea it owned me), but definitely not as good as other A-. Drop.

Slowking - A to B+: Havent seen this being too effective. It struggles against residual damage such as spikes and scald burns, does a poor job of checking keldeo especially if it carries toxic, not that good against rain who has thund-I as a breaker now mostly, gets put to sleep by politoed, doenst check thunder reuniclus either, It's decent and viable, but should hard drop.

Gastrodon - A- to B+: I dont like this pokemon at all. Sure it's hard to kill and sort of counters some rain teams but its so weak to hazards and status, it's such a sitting duck. It's not hard to force it to recover and do whatever you want there, and it can only be a fat annoying thing in return. Does nothing in a handful of matchups as well. Should drop imo.

Scizor - A- to B: This pokemon sucks. Period.

 

[trc]

well half of your post is about offensive starmie anyway. that is really the only place i would use it as well so B+ or A- seems reasonable enough. you mention a standard core but 3 of those extremely common pokemon give starmie an incredibly tough time and it's not like it's very useful against scarf lando-t either. tentacruel is just so much better on rain without the pursuit weakness and b/c of toxic spikes which is gonna be more useful against the increasingly common sun stalls that starmie is useless against. ferrothorn usage at an all time high is obviously making starmie's life difficult too. it just gets overwhelmed too easily and doesn't really confer much advantage against the common teams at the moment (even when the defensive set can check gliscors/heatrans, which isn't all the time, it is too easily exploitable afterwards; it's also too weak to really act as that 'insurance policy' against setup gliscors, lando-ts, garchomps etc). i only particularly like the offensive starmie sets at the moment.

 

[phosphor]

well half of your post is about offensive starmie anyway. that is really the only place i would use it as well so B+ or A- seems reasonable enough. you mention a standard core but 3 of those extremely common pokemon give starmie an incredibly tough time and it's not like it's very useful against scarf lando-t either. tentacruel is just so much better on rain without the pursuit weakness and b/c of toxic spikes which is gonna be more useful against the increasingly common sun stalls that starmie is useless against. ferrothorn usage at an all time high is obviously making starmie's life difficult too. it just gets overwhelmed too easily and doesn't really confer much advantage against the common teams at the moment (even when the defensive set can check gliscors/heatrans, which isn't all the time, it is too easily exploitable afterwards; it's also too weak to really act as that 'insurance policy' against setup gliscors, lando-ts, garchomps etc). i only particularly like the offensive starmie sets at the moment.

I think we can agree on the top of B+, Thundy-T and Magnezone deserve to be used much more than Mie.

 

[Ejthewolfy]

Is there any hope of these changes being implemented into the list it would be just really damn lovely if there was stuff even like this vr couls be updated so people like me that are trying to get into the meta can have better help with it. Thats just a general thing about gen 5 resources but back to my main question is there gonna be any changes to this vr?

 

[MANNAT]

BKC Thoughts on updating this VR similar to what McMeghan is doing with the ADV VR or something along those lines? It's been eons since this has been updated and post-SPL/right when BW cup is starting up seems like the perfect time to do it

 

[peng]

Hey can we have a go at updating this? Seems outdated.

Latios feels like best mon in the tier and is equally effective on sand or rain. Forces your hand during teambuilding more than anything other mon

Ferro is pretty clearly S. Everyone above has mentioned this already. There are so many teams right now who's gameplan is simply "use latios to try and wear down Ttar/Ferro for late-game Zam/Exca/Thund-T/" and despite that it still often manages to come out on top. Its forced near 100% usage of Sunny Day on Magnezone. Just a ridiculous influence on the metagame.

Garchomp/Lando-T/Excadrill don't feel like they're 3 rankings seperate to me? Feels like when teambuilding its kinda a toss-up between which of the 3 you want cos they all seem comparably good but with their own niche. All 3 are good at scarf, set-up attacking sets, and bulky SR. Drill has spin, Garchomp has the best secondary STAB + movepool, Lando-T gets Intimidate/U-turn/ground immune. Would say they're all at the top end of A+. Gliscor plays a quite differently and doesn't necessarily compete in the same way, but its probably A+ as well - no way this thing is A-.

Keldeo similarly doesn't feel like S, though I get that this is controversial.

Slowking and Mienshao at A+ seem like flavour of the month picks from a year ago, undoubtably good but that good? Nah. Mienshao A-, Slowking probably B+? Feels like people overhyping literally anything with Regen when spinning is current quite easy - obviously regen is amazing but I think we're past the "stick anything with regen alongside a magic guard mon and lets go". Amoonguss is fantastic, but Slowking/Slowbro/Mienshao/Tangrowth are all niche.

Tentacruel up to A - as with Glisc, there's never been and probably never will be a BW meta where Tentacruel isn't one of the best support mons around.

Reuniclus up to A - feel like this ranking hasn't been updated since Boltbeam and Acid Armour sets became popularised. Its not a one-dimensional mon anymore - there's now 4 good Reuniclus sets (classic CM, CM BoltBeam, Acid Armour, OTR) which are pretty tough to tell apart from team preview, and rip through eachothers counters bar Jirachi.. Seems to be having a resurgence, would say its A rank.

Magnezone to A - Feel like this needs to be treated like Tyranitar and Politoed as a playstyle-defining Pokemon. Magnezone is the heartblood of DragMag teams, pretty solidly the 3rd most common/effective team archetype after Sand balance and Rain. Also fits very well onto Sand / Rain teams independent of dragons, as it supports stuff like offensive Lando-T, Glisc, Gyarados, Thundurus-T, Reuniclus, Terrak, Mamoswine, Tornadus really well. BW would be very different without Magnezone so fits at the bottom of A rank for me.

So just to compile that, I reckon a more accurate ranking would be:

S-rank
= 01

Latios
= 02

Tyranitar
+ 03

Ferrothorn
= 04

Keldeo (maybe A+)

A+ rank
- 05

Garchomp (probably an unpopular opinion, everyone else is happy with this in S)
= 06

Landorus-T
= 07

Politoed
+ 08

Excadrill
= 09

Skarmory
= 10

Alakazam
+ 11

Gliscor

A rank
- 12

Breloom
+ 13

Reuniclus (edit: bumped this up from #16, didn't realise how far i put it from Zam)
+ 14

Tentacruel
= 15

Heatran
- 16

Jirachi
= 17

Amoonguss
+ 18

Thundurus-T
+ 19

Magnezone

A- rank
= 20

Starmie
- 21

Jellicent
= 22

Rotom-W
= 23

Terrakion
= 24

Volcarona
= 25

Hydreigon
= 26

Kyurem-B
= 27

Dragonite
= 28

Gastrodon
= 29

Gyarados
= 30

Mamoswine
= 31

Tornadus
- 32

Mienshao

Not gonna go any further than that cos bar like Latias, Hippo, Toxicroak and the sun mons you don't really see anything other than these 30-odd.

 

[dice]

i won't do an in-depth classifying, but here's my personal rankings for s through a.

S-rank
1.

Latios
2.

Excadrill
3.

Ferrothorn
4.

Garchomp


A+ rank
5.

Keldeo
6.

Landorus-T
7.

Tyranitar
8.

Politoed
9.

Gliscor
10.

Breloom
11.

Tentacruel
12.

Heatran

A rank
13.

Skarmory
14.

Reuniclus
15.

Alakazam
16.

Amoonguss
17.

Thundurus-T
18.

Terrakion
19.

Rotom-W
20.

Jirachi
21.

Magnezone

s-rank is pretty unquestionable for me. while i'm ~known~ for exca spam, it's one of the most reliable defensive and offense forces in the tier. its combo of 4x sr resist, flexible sets (newfound offensive sand force + protect, sd + tect, spdef, scarf, mold breaker sd, etc), and ability to fend off stealth rock for teammates means its an invaluable asset to sand teams. latios is probably the most consistent pkmn right now given that it's so hard to swap into, has good speed and defensive utility, and enables partners like reuniclus/alakazam so well. an underlooked aspect of latios is also how it manages to force weather wars, especially if you're using it on a rain/sun team, baiting tar damage for a swift sand elimination. ferrothorn is the best defensive steel in the tier and fits on all playstyles. worry seed as a tech opens up more options vs dragmag and gliscor too. and garchomp is just such a fabulous enabler/sweeper and is nigh-on impossible to safely swap into. always gonna be one of the strongest forces.

the top of a-rank is fairly obvious imo. keld/landt are offensive and defensive powerhouses that fit on virtually any playstyle and see massive use. the rise of reuniclus in the metagame has shunted keld's versatility a bit, with tox/tect sets falling out of favor and relying on more of a rain and choice-heavy enactment, but it's still ridic strong. tyranitar up next because it sees use on every team--not out of want particularly, but out of necessity. stealth rock 'tar is pretty trash and choice sets can be hard to justify at times, but it's still important as ever. same with toed, for obvious reasons. gliscor is just one of the most reliable balance options in the tier and while hp ice reuniclus has seen an uptick, it still is a constant thread with spdef and phys def sets. its one of the best exca counters in the tier and has much more permanence compared to land-t. breloom's rise can be attributed to the recent meta adoption of poison heal sets. it's super strong regardless of the sets it runs and scares off sleep talk absorbs quite nicely. v tough mon to prepare for.

the rest are kind of just my general feel based on how strong i believe they are mixed w. defensive utility. none of which are as set in stone. reun/zam are both quite effective but i think reun takes the slight edge in current meta. just wanna say that jirachi is ass and deserves low a.

 

[ABR]

The OP is obviously outdated so I'll give my take on how the VR should look and hopefully spark some discussion. The specific subgroup divisions are hard to narrow down so I'll just list the mons ordered by viability.

~

1.

Tyranitar
2.

Ferrothorn
3.

Latios
4.

Landorus-Therian
5.

Excadrill
6.

Garchomp
7.

Keldeo
8.

Politoed
9.

Heatran
10.

Gliscor
11.

Tentacruel
12.

Rotom-Wash
13.

Breloom
14.

Reuniclus
15.

Amoonguss
16.

Magnezone
17.

Thundurus-Therian
18.

Alakazam
19.

Jirachi
20.

Skarmory

~

Tyranitar starts off this list as the most defining mon in BW OU. Weather is very central to the metagame and Tar is the most consistent setter. Sand not only negates rain/sun but also chips lots of mons with residual beyond that. Even without the weather war aspect, Tar is still extremely useful as a trapper, whether that's with chople or a scarf. I disagree with dice's "sr tar is trash" analysis because this is very easy to alleviate by running dual sr sand, and this can be done with something like Ferro or scarf Lando. I also think Sand is far and away the most consistent weather, with even rain being very far behind in terms of consistency, as it relies way more heavily on rain being up than sand does on sand being up (think of mons like tenta and the genies).

Ferro is next because it's the premier spiker and can fit on literally any sand or rain team. Spikes, sr, whip, gyro, leech, knock, twave, protect, and worry seed are all valid utility options with their own benefits. It also offers many defensive uses by being a steel type that resists water and is neutral to ground, while also having leftovers cancel out sr chip.

Latios also fits on all types of teams, except also dragmag in addition to sand and rain. Specs draco is the most spammable move in the tier and even though Tar is on nearly every team you can still force major damage / a kill before getting trapped. It also has a great speed tier, a spike immunity, sleep talk / trick utility, and overall great offensive checking to a lot of mons like Keld / Thund / Loom and the ability to revenge many more. Scarf is also a viable option as it outspeeds every other scarfer and dpulse is a solid cleaning move.

Lando is one of the more versatile mons here, as it can run anything ranging from scarf to fight gem to sr while also providing the general utility of intimidate. Scarf has access to the ever-spammable uturn and fight gem is nearly impossible to switch into safely.

Exca's viability is very heavily tied to it being the top spinner and spikes being so central to BW. Sand force destroys Ferro while also checking Reuni, and Mold offers a more spammable eq vs mons like Rotom. Lefties tect is amazing for scout + sand chip + its own healing but scarf has solid use too.

Chomp is really flexible with the different offensive sets it can run, whether that's orb, yache, dgem, or salac. These all can pose a serious threat due to general stab coverage combined with the variety of specifics one must account for. Scarf is also very notable due to great speed tier (scarflando, scarfdrill, volc), and outrage spammability.

Keld isn't as amazing as it was say a year ago due to Reuni limiting protect a bit but that set is still amazing vs non Reuni teams (you can trap it too). I also like the ice set that I used vs Ojama in classic because it hits dragons harder and really messes with Amoong after burn, but in general people are way more prepared for this set now. That being said, both choice sets are still scary to face in rain due to the sheer power of its water moves.

Toed is finally here because rain plays a very important role in the meta but imo it is far far worse than sand because of greater weather reliance and Toed being a worse mon than Tar in general. Protect + lefties is annoying to deal with sometimes but all other sets are really underwhelming and easy to switch into. As for rain itself, other mons in my top 20 that benefit from it / are often seen on rain are Keld, Tenta, and Thund-T.

Tran only really fits on sand (sun too) but both spdef and offensive magma sets are very good rn when you factor in protect and options like wisp / hp ice.

Glisc is essentially hazard immune, is mostly seen on sand but can fit on stuff like rain/sun stall as well. Taunt is the go to but sd is good with zone as well. Ice fang, knock, aace, and toxic are all solid utility options. It's just unkillable with protect sometimes.

Tenta is probably the sole best rain abuser in the tier because rain dish + tect offers so much recovery per turn. It's a good spinner with scald threatening water weaks / ferro and toxic / tspikes are nice utility moves.

Rotom is a mon that doesn't hard counter a ton defensively and it isn't a traditional "breaker" but it is a long term progress-maker with wisp being wisp, pump for volt stops, and volt. Even the traditionally reliable switchins like Amoong can't take sr + sand + burn + volt forever. Rotom is one of those mons you simply can't hold off forever.

Breloom has seriously improved lately with pheal rising in usage. Technician is pretty trash but pheal @ facade is so hard to switch into because it boosts and messes with every sleep absorber like Amoong and Lati can be trapped / chipped easily. Long term defensive answering requires very delicate playing around sleep usually (bar ace Glisc), otherwise you just need to revenge it with faster offensive mons. Loom is also a burn immune water res which is awesome vs scald + Rotom.

Reuni is one of the best setup sweepers in the tier because of the hazard immunity + ability to mess with other hazard immunes like Glisc with hp ice. Boltbeam + psy focus are both good options depending on what your team needs. It can still bypass Tar with focus/spikes but pursuit is an issue at the end of the day, which stops me from putting it higher.

Amoong is one of the key defensive tools for sand to not get run over by waters p much, it's also a really safe absorber of sleep considering the sleepers are Toed / Loom / other Amoong. Fire hits Ferro but ice is a solid option vs dragons and Glisc. Spore is great as always.

Zone's viability is very heavily tied to Ferro's, but balloon + mrise is also a nice option to dispose of Exca which is great atm. Zone teams can be really awk to make but as long as it traps other pokemon central to the meta it will be good.

Thund is one of the main draws of running rain, as those thunders are absurdly strong and sub/np/agility/ice/focus all let it pose a threat in different ways. 145 spa is no joke, and it outspeeds 100s + Lando Exca which is cool.

Zam has admittedly fallen out of favor recently, but sash still lets it act as an important stop to offensive mons that might otherwise get out of hand. Assuming you can keep spikes up then sash zam coming in late with the sash intact can simply checkmate your opp into the trades you want.

Rachi is pretty eh on sand but it's essential to dragmag and different sets function on rain, because it abuses thunder but also checks lati / torn nicely, and can uturn / wish as support.

Skarm closes out this list as a spiker nearly always outclassed by ferro because it's trash vs rain and way more passive in general, but helmet is still cool because it deters the omnipresent Exca spin.

 

[Wizard]

Garchomp/Lando-T/Excadrill don't feel like they're 3 rankings seperate to me? Feels like when teambuilding its kinda a toss-up between which of the 3 you want cos they all seem comparably good but with their own niche. All 3 are good at scarf, set-up attacking sets, and bulky SR. Drill has spin, Garchomp has the best secondary STAB + movepool, Lando-T gets Intimidate/U-turn/ground immune

I feel like this statement is partially incorrect. In my experience, Excadrill + Landorus is one of the most easy cores to put in a balanced sand team just because they offer so much utility, for such a small cost. Actually, if you are building around Excadrill and don't want to add Landorus (or Gliscor/Hippo) you'll have to take the long road and do lots of tweaking to cover all the roles the bulky Ground would have covered.
I'd even say there is no problem with running three ground-types in the same build either, I did it here for example. Certain things like Mamoswine, Skarmory and Mienshao become more tedious to play around than usual but I'll take the risk just because ground mons are that good.
It's true though that many times you'll have to choose between Garchomp and Excadrill. Wouldn't call it a "toss-up" because they're very different but I see what you wanted to say here.

Breloom has seriously improved lately with pheal rising in usage. Technician is pretty trash

Would you elaborate, please? I can't see how Techloom, one of the most influential forces ever in the context of bw ou, has fallen this low.

 

[peng]

I feel like this statement is partially incorrect. In my experience, Excadrill + Landorus is one of the most easy cores to put in a balanced sand team just because they offer so much utility, for such a small cost. Actually, if you are building around Excadrill and don't want to add Landorus (or Gliscor/Hippo) you'll have to take the long road and do lots of tweaking to cover all the roles the bulky Ground would have covered.
I'd even say there is no problem with running three ground-types in the same build either, I did it here for example. Certain things like Mamoswine, Skarmory and Mienshao become more tedious to play around than usual but I'll take the risk just because ground mons are that good.
It's true though that many times you'll have to choose between Garchomp and Excadrill. Wouldn't call it a "toss-up" because they're very different but I see what you wanted to say here.

Yeah maybe explained this badly. I'm not saying "just pick one", cos obv double grounds in BW is long proven (e.g. Lando-I + Exca was default offensive core back in like 2011).

I'm more saying that when teambuilding, I very commonly come across one of these situations:
1 - "I need a scarfer not wrecked by passive damage and with a sweepable STAB - which one of Chomp / Exca / Lando-T fits best here"
2 - "I need an SR user with some offensive presence - which one of Chomp / Exca / Lando-T fits best here"
3 - "My sweeper would appreciate something that can bait and weaken defensive mons - which one of SD Chomp / SD Exca / set-up Lando-T fits best here"

Obviously you can double (or even triple) up cos they can all do these 3 things incredibly well and most teams need at least 2 of those roles somewhere - as you mentioned Lando-T and Exca pairing is very common. I was more just saying that when teambuilding, its not like any one of them is the default best at any role (bar if you specifically require a spinner). If your team gives Skarm / Ferro too many chances then probably you go Exca cos of the utility from spin. If your team doesn't give up Spikes much and you'd get more value from Intimidate + U-turn, then Lando-T stands out etc etc [edit - by comparison, Ferro is ranked way above Skarm because it is the default for that steel-type spiker role unless you've going down a pretty specific teambuilding route.]

The current ranking has them split between S-tier (Chomp), A+ (Lando-T), and A (Exca), which is very misleading. IMO they're much closer than that, with none clearly a step better than the others.

 

[PsyducksChili]

Terrak for A

Terrakion is extremely versatile and powerful and has a nice matchup on things like Heatran, Kyu-B, Ferro, TTar, etc.and can even destroy more frailer Pokemón like a non-tank Garchomp or Politoed with a Choice Band or after an SD. It does get walled by some things like Amoonguss and can die to Alakazam, but it can do some serious damage. I find the the Choice Scarf and Choice band sets better, because band helps it rip through more defensive teams as scarf turns it into a fierce revenge killer. It also can function as a late game cleaner with SD or the CB sets. With proper team support, this thing can be such a massive threat at times, which is why I think it is deserving of the A ranking.

 

[McMeghan]

posting my Rankings since an update is underway

1. Tyranitar
2. Latios
3. Landorus-Therian
4. Ferrothorn
5. Garchomp
6. Keldeo
7. Breloom
8. Politoed
9. Heatran
10. Excadrill
11. Amoonguss
12. Rotom-Wash
13. Reuniclus
14. Magnezone
15. Gliscor
16. Tentacruel
17. Terrakion
18. Thundurus-Therian
19. Jirachi
20. Mamoswine
21. Starmie
22. Alakazam
23. Slowbro
24. Skarmory
25. Dragonite
26. Kyurem-Black
27. Volcarona
28. Gyarados
29. Tornadus
30. Gastrodon
31. Ninetales
32. Scizor
33. Jellicent
34. Latias
35. Celebi
36. Hydreigon
37. Mew
38. Ditto
39. Cresselia
40. Mienshao
41. Chansey
42. Toxicroak
43. Slowking
44. Kyurem
45. Xatu
46. Weavile
47. Tangrowth
48. Salamence
49. Hippowdon
50. Alomomola
51. Metagross
52. Forretress

Didn't bother with the Pokemons I never use, or never see being used. Could have made some honorary shit mentions for the absolutely awful stuff that some people insist on using such as Zapdos though.

Green = the good stuff that will always work games in and out
Red = great against the metagame, a lot of archetypes abuse them nicely as a result; more trendy than the Green 'mons
Blue = either good Pokemons falling out of flavor such as Jirachi, Alakazam and Skarmory or interesting metagame picks coming with abusable drawbacks
Purple = good Offensive Pokemons worth running but need more team support than the higher ranked stuff
Brown = mostly good Defensive Pokemons worth running but need to cover for their weaknesses in the builder appropriately
the rest = mostly niche picks that need you to have a good understanding of the metagame to recognize why you'd use them over the other stuff, but I see them as worthwile Pokemons in BW

 

[elodin]

giving my take on this as well

~

S rank
1.

Tyranitar
2.

Politoed
3.

Latios

A+ rank
4.

Excadrill
5.

Ferrothorn
6.

Keldeo
7.

Garchomp
8.

Landorus-Therian

A rank
9.

Gliscor
10.

Rotom-W
11.

Breloom
12.

Skarmory
13.

Heatran
14.

Reuniclus
15.

Tentacruel

A- rank
16.

Magnezone
17.

Thundurus-Therian
18.

Amoonguss
19.

Jirachi
20.

Alakazam
21.

Dragonite
22.

Starmie

B+ rank
23.

Mamoswine
24.

Terrakion
25.

Ninetales
26.

Tornadus
27.

Gyarados
28.

Kyurem-B

B rank
29.

Volcarona
30.

Hydreigon
31.

Jellicent
32.

Gastrodon
33.

Milotic
34.

Salamence
35.

Slowbro
36.

Scizor
37.

Celebi
38.

Mienshao

B- rank
39.

Chansey
40.

Cresselia
41.

Toxicroak
42.

Gengar
43.

Tangrowth
44.

Hippowdon

C+ rank
45.

Slowking
46.

Bronzong
47.

Mew
48.

Xatu
49.

Zapdos

C rank
50.

Kyurem
51.

Latias
52.

Weavile
53.

Kingdra
54.

Forretress

~

ok so i wanted to start off by saying i didn't really use any particular criteria to divide the rankings after b+ honestly. i just went with what made sense to me as i went along. but looking at the top 30 i have a very strong opinion as to why they should be ranked and divided this way.

starting off i think i'm the only person who ranks politoed this highly, but i think ranking it anywhere else is ridiculous when it's a metagame-defining force alongside tyranitar. i don't need to go in-depth on why rain is so good, but it's absurd to me that people don't rank politoed as highly as tyranitar / latios when it's clearly the second or third most important pokemon in the tier. i'd accept it if it were a completely trash mon and rain wasn't a popular playstyle, but it's legit a mon that does it job super well most games and has pretty good movepool to run many different sets. refresh toed is a very annoying setter to deal with, especially when you're facing it with sun because will-o-wisp becomes pretty much useless. it has access to hypnosis, which often cripples something on the enemy team. it has access to both psychic and ice beam, great coverage options to deal with all of amoonguss / breloom / toxicroak / dragons in general. anyway i just think what tyranitar and politoed do for the metagame is too much to not rank them 1 and 2 respectively. these 2 pokemon are bw's identity and they are great at what they do, even if individually they aren't such great mons as some others. latios is the only other pokemon i chose to rank s alongside them because it works similarly as it forces teams to follow very specific teambuilding patterns due to its ridiculously strong specs draco meteor. i don't need to go in-depth on this though, everyone knows how broken latios is.

the a+ pokemon sit just underneath these top 3 threats as even though they are ridiculously strong, i don't believe they shape bw's identity the way the top 3 does. excadrill sits at the top of a+ because of how effective it is at removing hazards and at dishing out damage throughout the game. i think both mold breaker and sand force sets are very good, and protect excadrill is extremely annoying for bulky sand teams to deal with as they usually carry scarf landorus-t as their best way to force it out. i think excadrill has a lot more versatility (scarf, protect, sd, sdef all viable sets) and utility (hazard removal) compared to the others in this rank, which is why it's #4 for me. ferrothorn is a staple on rain teams and super viable in bulky sand as well, has a ridiculously good movepool and is the best spikes setter in the tier. i rank keldeo above garchomp and landorus-t because it fits easier in most teams compared to the first, and it's a much bigger threat offensively compared to the second. while both garchomp and landorus-t have their prowesses, i do believe scarf keldeo under rain is still the hardest thing to deal with in bw.

a rank is quite straightforward. i do believe all these threats are just a tad worse compared to the ones in a+, which is why i chose to put them on a lower ranking. i start it off with gliscor because of its variety of sets and ability to be both a defensive behemoth and an offensive threat at the same time. hp ice reun's rise in usage kinda made people stray away from gliscor a bit, but i still think its defensive utility is just super important as excadrill is such a dominant threat, and gliscor is the best answer to it alongside skarmory. its longevity is amazing, sd is very good vs balance, taunt has tremendous utility, and all of u-turn / knock off / aerial ace are viable options that often catch people off-guard. rotom-w next because it's one of the few pokemon who are good vs all bw playstyles and fits easily onto most teams. rotom's just an extremely underated pokemon in my eyes, as it's possibly the best lead in the whole tier and never fails to deliver in a match. rotom always burns something and starts chipping away at stuff with volt switch very early in the game, while also being one of the best pivots into the threatening ground and water-type moves the tier has, not to mention the annoying longevity provided by pain split. just a very solid pokemon imo. breloom sits right under him as it's just one of those mons that can win a match on its own. spore is broken, bulk up / sd sets with poison heal are super hard to deal with, technician is still a threat even if it has fallen out of favor. skarmory sits at #12 for me because i think it's very solid at dealing with the broken ground-types this tier has, while also being a very decent pivot into some more obscure, but not unimportant threats, such as tornadus, kyurem-b, and gyarados. skarmory would be one of the best pokemon in the tier if not for magnezone imo, but i still think it's worthy of a high ranking, as "a well played skarmory wins every bw game on its own" - jayde. heatran i think is pretty good for the most part, but i don't like how rain shuts its effectiveness down so hard between politoed / tenta. yeah you can cripple them with will-o-wisp and chip at them with earth power, but i just think it offers very little to the table when dealing against these teams. still though this is one of the most annoying mons to deal with in the tier, as magma + protect sets chip things down under sand with ridiculous ease, and it has an amazing movepool to take advantage of common bulky sand archetypes. all of toxic, protect, roar, will-o-wip, substitute, magma storm, lava plume, hidden power ice are super solid options and getting caught off-guard by any of them can make your game a whole lot harder. reuniclus i could've probably ranked higher but i do think its effectiveness has been dropping recently as people have realized just how good excadrill is at dealing with it. sand force exca shuts down the hp ice / thunder set pretty damn hard, as exca is one of the hardest mons to switch into and reun just gives it free opportunities to dish out damage / set up swords dances. that said we all know what cm reun is capable of, and i do think as an offensive psychic its otr set is still very much viable too. tentacruel sits at the bottom of a rank for me because while i do think its one of the most important pieces on rain teams, its effectiveness is very much limited to them and exclusively when rain is on the field. it's still surely the best spinner for most rain teams, but i do think outside of rain it's just a very bad pokemon and that's why i can't rank it higher than #15. it still deserves a though just cuz of how broken it is under rain and how broken scald is.

a- starts with magnezone, a very defining threat in the tier. magnezone's utility is clearly a lot more restricted compared to the pokemon sitting in a rank, but bw teams are basically rain / sand / sun stall / dragmag, and dragmag is honestly a pretty underrated playstyle. i've tried some other combinations with magnezone in the past and this mon is just super solid at doing its job. being able to remove skarmory and ferrothorn from the equation is so effective in bw. the chople sunny day set is amazing for controlling weather too in weatherless teams. this is just a staple pokemon in many teams and it's honestly a very useful tool to have most games, so it sits at the top of a- for me. thundurus-therian right next because it's impossible to counter, thunder is broken under rain and its variety of sets just makes it one of the scariest offensive threats to deal with. amoonguss is a mon i probably could've ranked higher, but i do think it's too passive for the current state of bw and i don't like how it offers things like breloom and excadrill free turns once it has spored something (in breloom's case that doesn't even matter). it's also kind of annoying how the things it's supposed to beat are almost always able to chip it down even through regenerator, whether it's keldeo scald burning it, thundurus-t subbing on predicted spores, rotom burning it and volt switching on it etc. that said though this mon is still very much one of the best answers to many of the rain threats in the tier, and also always cripples things in a match with spore and sometimes stun spore as well, both pretty broken statuses. jirachi is just a lot worse now that excadrill is such a defining threat, but i do think the sub 3 attacks set can be very hard to deal with for some teams, and it serves a very important role of being the best steel-type in most weatherless teams / rain teams needing flying resists to deal with torn. sdef rachi is still the best answer to the psychic-types in the tier (zam / reun / latios), it's just annoying that it gives ferrothorn and exca so much leeway when its on the field. alakazam... i don't really know what to say about this one. i used to think orb zam was one of the best pokemon in bw, but it's just so unreliable compared to other offensive mons that i find myself never using it these days. it just offers 0 defensive utility and relies too much on focus blast hitting to be effective, which makes it a very easy pokemon to hate using. that said though this mon still has no counters other than sdef jirachi and chansey, and both focus sash and life orb sets are very big threats. dragonite is a mon i think is very underrated. it's a super solid answer to breloom and water-type moves in general. cb dnite is my favorite sleep talk absorber in the tier, as it carries ridiculously powerful moves in outrage / superpower and is able to switch into both amoonguss and breloom a lot better than latios due to its bulk and multiscale. i think special dragonite is also very underrated, as it fits pretty decently in rain and effectively counters keldeo, tentacruel, politoed, volcarona and other stuff. starmie is another mon i feel is underrated, but kinda on the same train as alakazam when it comes to its effectiveness. i dont like the defensive set at all and i dont think starmie fits on most sand teams, but i do think offensive specs / life orb starmie is one of the most underrated threats under rain. that said it still relies on hydro pump too much and it's really hard to function as both a spinner and a sweeper / wallbreaker.

i don't really feel like talking about the rest because they're not really that relevant. i tried dividing the ranks where it seemed appropriate. i don't think volcarona or hydreigon are often as effective at breaking / offer the same defensive utility as the things ranked in b+, so that's where i drew the line. i ranked a lot of bulky waters in b but that was honestly just a coincidence. i think they all serve different purposes but are all solid options in sand depending on what you want.

 

[M Dragon]

Ok, I will do this as well:

S rank
1.

Tyranitar
2.

Latios
3.

Landorus-Therian

A+ rank
4.

Ferrothorn
5.

Excadrill
6.

Garchomp
7.

Keldeo
8.

Politoed

A rank
9.

Breloom
10.

Rotom-W
11.

Heatran
12.

Tentacruel
13.

Gliscor
14.

Alakazam

A- rank
15.

Skarmory
16.

Amoonguss
17.

Reuniclus
18.

Thundurus-Therian
19.

Terrakion
19.

Jirachi
21.

Dragonite

B+ rank
22.

Jellicent
23.

Starmie
24.

Magnezone
25.

Gyarados
26.

Tornadus
27.

Kyurem-B
28.

Gastrodon
29.

Mamoswine
30.

Mienshao

B rank
31.

Mew
32.

Hydreigon
33.

Volcarona
34.

Slowbro
35.

Scizor
36.

Ninetales
37.

Slowking
38.

Latias
39.

Salamence
40.

Kyurem
41.

Gengar

B- rank
42.

Tangrowth
43.

Hippowdon
44.

Chansey
45.

Cresselia
46.

Milotic
47.

Toxicroak
48.

Bronzong
49.

Xatu
50.

Zapdos

 

[muffintime]

Literally any psychic or flying type counters it. I see no niche in this whatsoever. With the abundance of Landorus-T and Jirachi, Riolu better write his last will in OU. Also, Xatu and Espeon and such exists.

i know this is old but Xatu and Espeon are trash and aren't on most teams, and "any psych or flying types counter it" doesn't even make any sense (like seriously what are you talking about lol, it cant be because they are super effective because almost everything ohkos it anyways, that's not even the point).

 

[GamerOGuy]

i know this is old but Xatu and Espeon are trash and aren't on most teams, and "any psych or flying types counter it" doesn't even make any sense (like seriously what are you talking about lol, it cant be because they are super effective because almost everything ohkos it anyways, that's not even the point).

bro i wrote this years ago leave me alone i understand why it's good now

 

[MANNAT]

There is an updated version of this thread

just saying