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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
Could you elaborate on your use with it? Sure a specially defensive Hariyama can take +1 Thunderbolt or other normally effective attack from Genesect, but other bulky Pokémon like Snorlax can much more easily. And the only way Hariyama (or Snorlax) can quickly take care of Genesect in one hit is with a Fire Punch and Heatran with an Earthquake respectively. So I'm just wondering why you chose Hariyama specifically
252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Genesect Thunderbolt vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Snorlax: 33.59% - 39.69%
0 +1 Atk Life Orb Genesect U-turn vs 252 HP/0 Def Snorlax: 46.56% - 54.96%
252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Genesect Thunderbolt vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Hariyama: 58.54% - 68.9%
0 +1 Atk Life Orb Genesect U-turn vs 252 HP/0 Def Hariyama: 26.42% - 31.1%
0 +1 Atk Life Orb Genesect U-turn vs 252 HP/0 Def Snorlax: 46.56% - 54.96%
252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Genesect Thunderbolt vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Hariyama: 58.54% - 68.9%
0 +1 Atk Life Orb Genesect U-turn vs 252 HP/0 Def Hariyama: 26.42% - 31.1%
But Darmanitan is somewhat frail (base 105 HP is nothing if you have base 55 defenses, as Darmanitan will fall to any super-effective or strong neutral STAB attack) and relies on a move that inflicts recoil damage. Darmanitan also isn't sufficiently fast without a Choice Scarf, and is weak to Stealth Rock. Chandelure is not as frail but is not bulky either and is even slower.
Keldeo is however not weak to SR and has a respectable bulk that lets it survive some super-effective non-STAB hits such as a Thunderbolt from non-Choice Specs variants of Starmie. It also has a good speed that makes a Choice Specs even more viable.
Also, Tornadus-T is very dependent on rain, while Keldeo is able to function very well outside it (though it's even more powerful under it).
I use Hariyama on my current OU Team, so I will elaborate as to my specific set I am running, which looks like this............
Hariyama @ Leftovers
Nature: Careful
Ability: ThickFat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpDef / 4 Def
Moveset:
-Force Palm
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Whirlwind
I found this in the creative movesets thread, and it seemed viable, so I tested it. And it works WONDERS versus todays common threats in the OU metagame!
This Hariyama variant hard counters some top OU threats, including Genesect, Heatran, Tyranitar, and Cloyster (even AFTER a Shell Smash).
It also can tank not one, but TWO Draco Meteoros from the Lati Twins.
The ideal here is a role that is threefold. Counter threats mentioned above, first, and formost.
With support and hazards, Whirlwind can work to both phase, and rack up a fair amount of residual damage in the process.
I use Forrettress as a teammate to supply the hazards, Forrey is only weak torwars Fire type moves, and Hariyama's Thick Fat ability allows it to switch in, without much cost in the process.
Force Palm, albeit being only a 60 BP move, brings two things still. A 120 base attack STAB, and a 30% paralysis rate, as well. Yes, this plays torwards hax, and chance, however, if you get the parahax on a switch versus the Lati twins, Tornadur-T, ect, you gain yet another great advantage.
That's my own take on Hariyama. I think it's very much worth being paid attention to in todays OU metagame.
EDIT
Side note:
Genesect @ Choice Scarf (the most common variant I have encountered)
Nature: Naive
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpAtk / 252 Speed / 4 Atk
Moveset:
-U-Turn
-Ice Beam
-Flamethrower
-Thunderbolt
Versus the Hariyama variant posted above, max damage output is a mere 23.2% if hit with Thunderbolt. Segnifigently less from any of Genesect's other three moves.
Hariyama takes a crap on Genesect!
Being able to take on, and win versus four top OU threats is alway a plus, especially with the bulk Hariyama has on both ends of it's spectrum, even without major investment in Def.
Tornadus-T is not "very dependent" of rain, Hurricane has the same percentage as Focus Blast. You'll likely fish one out. If all else fails, Tornadus still has it's blistering speed to U-Turn the hell out for some nice Regenator recovery.
This is why you have acces to U-Turn, but overall in my opinion I'd rather use Tornadus-T's unique abilities over Keldeo.
Blizzard also has the same accuracy as Focus Blast, and is much more powerful as Ice Beam, and still more likely to hit than to miss. Yet people use Ice Beam because it's much better to use a not as powerful move that doesn't miss than to use a very powerful move that can miss.
People use Focus Blast even though it is innacurate because they have no other choice except Hidden Power Fighting, wich is very weak in comparison and prohibits you from using a Hidden Power of another type. Either that, or you have the option to either risk the 30% miss, or lose important coverage. It's certain that if Aura Sphere was avaliable as TM, people would always use it instead of Focus Blast if possible.
However, Hurricane is a different history. You aren't using this move because you are dependent of its coverage, but because it has STAB. You have the option to use Hurricane under rain, but if you don't do that, this severely decreases the viability of Hurricane, even though it is the most powerful STAB option for Tornadus-T. That's why Tornadus-T is not viable outside rain teams (unless you plan to use it with Acrobatics or to check rain teams) and is also the reason that Tornadus-T effectiveness decreases under other weathers; you are using a Focus Blast that has worse coverage.
As I said above Hurricane is basically a Focus Blast with worse coverage, and it's even worse under other weathers.
Keldeo can do things like counter garchomp outside of rain. Also, who says Keldeo needs to run its water STAB? NOt saying thats popular, but Torn is kinda relies on rain to even sweep whereas Keldeo does not. Keldeo also has fast speeds too, just like Torn-T, so Keldeo can be used more than just rain teams. Making Keldeo a better choice outside of rain than Torn-T would.
Keldeo is not viable without water STAB as its movepool is so shallow that it doesn't even get good coverage options and has to resort to Hidden Power. These coverage options are very weak against neutral targets, and without Hydro Pump or Surf, Keldeo is going to struggle trying to damage physical walls that aren't weak to Secret Sword or its coverage moves.
Also, Keldeo is not going to counter Garchomp anytime soon due to the sheer power of Outrage - it can OHKO Keldeo if boosted, and even Earthquake puts a large dent on him. However, Keldeo is a great check because Garchomp loses to Icy Wind and it cannot come into Hydro Pump at all. Even if Garchomp survives the first hit, he's not going to survive the second.
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves |
| Hydro Pump 62.714% |
| Surf 37.551% |
Uhhh...looks like the overwhelming majority of people say so. When you add the chances of Keldeo having either Hydro Pump or Surf together, you get 100.265%, meaning that everybody runs either one of the two moves with a small amount of people using both on the same set. You really can't abstain from using a Water STAB on Keldeo - its movepool is so abhorrently shallow that your only real options for attacking moves are Water STAB, Secret Sword, Hidden Power, and Icy Wind. I would definitely not recommend using Keldeo without a Water-type attack unless you're running some awkward Swords Dance set, and even then, you'd probably be using Aqua Jet lol.
e: ninja'd by DFA, oh well
Don't explain the technicalities of Hurricane to me, as I already know them. I was referring to Weatherless environment outside of Rain, you just brought weather with your response which wasn't stated to begin with. Specs Keldeo is forced to switch when it's counter/check come in(Celebi,Latias,Jellicent etc.). Tornadus-T is forced to switch when another weather is introduced. Point being Keldeo has more counters, and Tornadus-T gets a bonus from regenerator to fight another time.
@ Lavos: Its used a lot, but not necessarily needed. Kinda like your Rotom-W on that sun team in BW1. (not that that is common, I was only pointing out that Keldeo is viable on more than just rain teams and it can still be used w/o a water attack, although not advisable, can work). Since people are comparing it to Torn-T, a LO sweeper, to a CM sweeper which are differnet all together and Torn-T is only a rain abuser whereas keldeo works in sun / hail / sand / rain / weatherless / deo-d offense / etc.
EDIT:
My bad: checks -.-. It out speeds and can OHKO (even with secret sword with enough boosts). Even still, Torn-T fails to counter OR check yache chomp in sand (or any other weather but rain). Still make a valid point in my previous post ;-;
EDIT:
My bad: checks -.-. It out speeds and can OHKO (even with secret sword with enough boosts). Even still, Torn-T fails to counter OR check yache chomp in sand (or any other weather but rain). Still make a valid point in my previous post ;-;
I used Keldeo for awhile (I'm more of a stall player, though), and found it to be boardline useless out of rain. It really should have gotten IBeam.
Sorry, do not get me wrong, I have the habit of talking this way, even when I'm not talking about Pokémon. Back to the Keldeo subject, Celebi, Latias and Jellicent are not true counters as they are all weak to coverage moves that Keldeo commonly carry (Icy Wind and HP Ice to the former two, HP Ghost to the latter two and HP Electric to the latter). You must first identify the coverage moves that Keldeo is using to know what will counter it, and even though they can tank one of these coverage moves, they are hard pressed to survive the second. but Tornadus-T has sure-fire counters. Apart from SD Jirachi, changing the weather decreases Tornadus-T effectiveness as I said, and there is nothing that Tornadus-T can do unless it has Rain Dance.
It's true, however, that Keldeo would be happy if it had a move to gain momentum like Tornadus-T has, and a better ability. I must admit that these are points that Tornadus-T has over Keldeo.
My point is: Keldeo is all but useless outside of rain (except on sun of course) but the rain is still welcome to power up Hydro Pump. And I am not saying that Tornadus-T is better or worse than Keldeo under rain (but Tornadus-T is worse OUTSIDE rain).
I use SubCM Keldeo with HP Ghost / Secret Sword in order to beat all of Rock Polish Gene's Counters (Bug Buzz / Flamethrower / Ice Beam / RP) on a Deo-D offense team. It works really well, gets around 1500 on Beta, and just started lattering on PS with it. Anyways, I am not saying that you should run the Keldeo I am, as I only run hp ghost to hit specific things for the team (more than just for Gene, js), but what I am trying to say is that it works. It makes a good rain counter. As in for rain in general: Keldeo does physical damage to blobs and with susbtitute can set up. Can your Torn-T do that? o-o
Ok, one more try to get it at you. 'Specs' Keldeo will switch out when it's counters/check come in, as in it'll already be locked into(more than likely or why would it be coming in?) a resisted move by said counters/checks. The majority are also bulky enough to take un-stabbed moves, while also packing Recover. ;) Starmie can even take them all bar Hp whatever(and Hydro pump outside of Rain) and KO with Psychic or Psyshock which they do pack ._.
Edit: but whatever Keldeo is Keldeo, same for T. lol different usage.
Actually, in my opinion, Keldeo is far more useful as a set-up sweeper outside of rain. This may just be the way I use it, but it really works for me. I use the Substitute Calm Mind set and my #1 favorite things to set up on are bulky waters. When I used to run a rain team, I was dismayed that sometimes scalds and surfs were able to break my subs. However, once I started using a weatherless team, I could sub and boost in the face of pretty much any Jellicent, Tentacruel, and roar-less Vaporeon.
Most Starmie do not carry Psychic STAB, and generally their only option to hit Keldeo super-effectively is Thunderbolt, wich doesn't OHKO if Starmie doesn't use Choice Specs, and even then the OHKO is not guaranteed:
252 SpAtk Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Keldeo: 75,93% - 89,51%
2 hits to KO
252 SpAtk Choice Specs Starmie Thunderbolt vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Keldeo: 87,04% - 103,09%
18,75% chance to OHKO
As for the counters that force Keldeo to switch when it is locked in the wrong attack; this happens with just about any Choice Pokémon. But I must admit that this is a point that Tornadus-T has over Keldeo, as it has U-Turn to compensate this unfortunate situation.
Torn-T can in fact do, with Superpower.
I haven't calced it in a while, but doesn't Toxic Chans beat Torn-T? Superpower iirc doesn't do enough (now I am NOT suggesting coming in on Superpower, I am suggesting coming in on Hurricane) and iirc Chans can take a Superpower, Soft, Superpower, Soft, Toxic, and just spam Soft and beat it. Whereas Keldeo (Sub and Lum in particular) have a much easier time with Chansey.
Yeah, Keldeo is amazing on weatherless teams, especially offense. Outside of Rain, there aren't many good offensive Water-types (even in Rain, they're only really offensive because of the boost) and even fewer that can set up. Keldeo does this incredibly well. It's also an excellent glue Pokemon. HO team having issues with Cloyster? Slap on a Keldeo. Blissey's a headache? Keldeo is your pony. Rain troubles? Not with Keldeo around. Its only problem is that it really only gets one chance to sweep with its frailty, but sometimes one chance is all you need.
By the way, I've found that offensive CM Espeon is a pretty damn good Pokemon. Magic Bounce is just such an amazing ability for a setup sweeper - Switch it in on almost any wall, bounce back their attack, CM on the switch, and their "counter" eats a +1 Psyshock. What I'm currently running:
Espeon @ Leftovers
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball / Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Psyshock is to not be walled by various Special walls as well as hitting CM Keldeo and a few other Pokemon, although you could easily make a case for Psychic (it's a bit stronger). Shadow Ball vs. Grass Knot is a case-by-case thing (I've used both, I'm not sure which I like better) but HP Fire is pretty much necessary or you always lose to Scizor. It's fun to hit Genesect with it on the switch too!
By the way, I've found that offensive CM Espeon is a pretty damn good Pokemon. Magic Bounce is just such an amazing ability for a setup sweeper - Switch it in on almost any wall, bounce back their attack, CM on the switch, and their "counter" eats a +1 Psyshock. What I'm currently running:
Espeon @ Leftovers
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball / Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Psyshock is to not be walled by various Special walls as well as hitting CM Keldeo and a few other Pokemon, although you could easily make a case for Psychic (it's a bit stronger). Shadow Ball vs. Grass Knot is a case-by-case thing (I've used both, I'm not sure which I like better) but HP Fire is pretty much necessary or you always lose to Scizor. It's fun to hit Genesect with it on the switch too!
if you don't come in on superpower, yes, chansey can beat tornadus-T. superpower won't deal more than about 60% to 252 def eviolite chansey (no HP investment, not bold either). you can heal up or wish/protect and let tornadus slowly drop its attack while slipping in seismic tosses. toxic ensures you can beat it, but you don't need it to do so.
ofc then the bastard uturns and suddenly regenerator erases all your hard work >_>
and as for espeon, shadow ball is definitely more important imo, because otherwise there are cmers that can beat you via type advantage (eg latias, which can go toe to toe in a cm war with espeon and easily win if espeon only has NVE moves). baton pass is also good in that slot; the spdef boosts can make some mons unbreakable (hf breaking through a chansey when it has +4 sdef) and nobody will risk roaring on the baton pass when an espeon is in. bulky waters don't have an easy time beating you anyway; scald will do absolutely nothing and you're immune to status. you might end up slapping at each other in futility, but it's better than getting into a cm war with other psychics and losing every single time
As for the Espeon set i really don't see the point of using HP [Fire]. HP [Fighting] deals more damage to Hydreigon and Tyranitar while it provides the same damage against Ferrothorn, Jirachi and Bronzong in Rain (which is the main weather where they're seen). You lose to Scizor even with it since Bullet Punch is an easy KO with Espeon a little bit weakened.
EDIT: Haven't read the part about the Genesect switch-in. That is interesting.
EDIT: Haven't read the part about the Genesect switch-in. That is interesting.
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Espeon: 90,04% - 106,27% (37,5% chance to OHKO)