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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Nah, Hidden Power Fire would definitely be superior to Fighting on the Espeon set. What are you trying to hit with Fighting, anyways? If the answer is Tyranitar, Grass Knot does almost as much anyways, and against Chople variants you'll be glad you have it instead of HP Fighting. Grass Knot also helps a ton against SDef Hippowdon, Gastrodon, Jellicent, etc. Besides, Espeon desperately needs HP Fire, both to OHKO Scizor and OHKO Genesect as it switches in. It's also nice against Forretress, Skarmory, and Jirachi, all of which would flat-out wall CM Espeon if it lacked HP Fire. Espy definitely suffers from four-moveslot syndrome, and no set is perfect by any means, I'm just trying to maximize its overall usefulness.
 
I hate trying to set up Espeon, with Genesect running on nearly every team, as it can just U-turn at will. I know Scizor did this before, but Genesect outspeeds with a scarf.

Though I do agree Hp Fire is greater than Hp Fighting, with it all you have to worry about is hitting Heatran. Hp fighting sucks especially with all the Scarfed Tars nowadays.
 
Am I the only one who finds Espeon relatively easy to deal with? I never seems to do anything and its easy to predict it coming in to bounce back something. Even when one does run a hidden power to hit either Scizor or Heatran, Scizor can KO with bullet punch most of the time and heat ran can tank a hit. But generally just use something with U-Turn to wreck it or a powerful move. The best set always ends up being dual screens IMO.
 
Offensive Espeon is especially effective against defensive teams, who primarily rely on status and resistances to beat sweepers. Statusing Espeon is difficult with Magic Bounce, and unless you have Scald + Sand/Hail even status doesn't wear it out that well. With Setupbait Tentacruel running around practically everywhere, it can even spread status by coming in on Toxic Spikes. It's an effective tool for offensively leaning teams that have trouble with stall and company.
 
In my experiences, magic bouncers are only really good on sun offense or stall teams, Xatu being a bit better than Espeon in each case. Espeon is only better than Xatu on Baton Pass teams, or Semi-Pass teams. I think its because Xatu gets Heat Wave, partial flying type (so U-turn can hurt it as much as it will Espeon), and U-turn. Espeon is also good on Sun Offense, but with popularity in Sun-Turn, Xatu is usually seen more.
 
Agreeing with some of the previous posts about offensive Espeon. It's pretty hard to set up successfully with all the faster threats like Genesect and such flying around, and even when you've set up a couple Calm Minds you're pretty easy to revenge. It really does not support the bulk to set up easily, and investing in bulk limits your Speed or Special Attack investment, either of which lost means you're now slower than something else, or you have to setup even more to break through your checks. Personally, I've never had a problem with Espeon but I can definitely see why some people have. It causes a lot of problems for teams with a defensive playstyle, and can be very annoying to play around. When you see it in team preview, you always take a risk when trying to status something, or setup hazards. Espeon can easily switch in on Amoonguss's Spore or Skarmory's Spikes and completely disregard them. This is one of the reasons why some form of offense is greatly appreciated by stall, mainly things such as CB Tar and bulky DD Gyara.

In terms of the better Magic Bouncer, I'd always use Xatu. The x4 fighting resist is especially helpful, especially when switching in vs Breloom who Espeon risks taking a Bullet Seed from. Xatu can also form as a great pivot for offensive teams with Magic Bounce, Roost and U-Turn. It easily switches in against hazards setters, deflects their hazards and U-Turns out on the oncoming switch. This is amazing for offensive teams, and actually gives them some way to beat stall. Combine this with the new threats such as Genesect, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T and Keldeo and stall is arguably even harder to use in B/W2. I'm interested to see if anyone has had any good fortune with using stall in B/W2, as all my stall teams are generally beaten by Sub CM Keldeo or the new VoltTurn with Genesect and friends.
 
Posting to say that Keldeo has one true counter, because DFA claimed he didn't, and this is SpDefensive Celebi with a moveset of Giga Drain, Recover, Perish Song, U-turn / Baton Pass / Hidden Power Fire. Check out some calcs:


  • Specs rain Hydro Pump: 38.86 - 46.03%, never 2HKO after SR.
  • Specs HP Ghost: 40.59 - 48.01%, 10.94% chance to 2hko after SR. 11% chance to get 2hkoed by a move that is rare on the not most used set of Keldeo (Icy Wind + HP Electric is the most common combo on Specs Keldeo), WITH SR up.
  • +1 LO HP Ice: 52.97 - 62.37%, while Giga Drain does 35.91 - 43.34% to +1 Keldeo, which means that you 2HKO Keldeo, while it can't 2HKO back (2 Giga Drain do 72% damage min, so after Keldeo has taken SR damage and 2 LO rounds, he is dead). Keldeo can't 2HKO back because of the Lefties and Giga Drain healing.
  • +1 HP Ice: 40.59 - 48.01%, which means that you can use Perish Song, avoid the 2hko and burn the 2 turns with Recover (without Perish Song, you can lose from Lefties CM Keldeo, especially if it is running HP evs).
So here you have it people, THE Keldeo counter!
 
Tabuu said:
Quick Question...How effective is Sandslash???
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I run an offensive sand team centered around Sand Rush Sandslash sweep and I've peaked at 1830 rating on showdown.

It's like an Excadrill with less damage but that can take a hit or two.

I'll post an RMT about it as soon as I'm done with it.

alexwolf said:
Posting to say that Keldeo has one true counter, because DFA claimed he didn't, and this is SpDefensive Celebi with a moveset of Giga Drain, Recover, Perish Song, U-turn / Baton Pass / Hidden Power Fire. Check out some calcs:


  • Specs rain Hydro Pump: 38.86 - 46.03%, never 2HKO after SR.
  • Specs HP Ghost: 40.59 - 48.01%, 10.94% chance to 2hko after SR. 11% chance to get 2hkoed by a move that is rare on the not most used set of Keldeo (Icy Wind + HP Electric is the most common combo on Specs Keldeo), WITH SR up.
  • +1 LO HP Ice: 52.97 - 62.37%, while Giga Drain does 35.91 - 43.34% to +1 Keldeo, which means that you 2HKO Keldeo, while it can't 3HKO back (2 Giga Drain do 72% damage min, so after Keldeo has taken SR damage and 2 LO rounds, he is dead). Keldeo can't 3hko back because of the Lefties and Giga Drain healing.
  • +1 HP Ice: 40.59 - 48.01%, which means that you can use Perish Song, avoid the 2hko and burn the 2 turns with Recover (without Perish Song, you can lose from Lefties CM Keldeo, especially if it is running HP evs).
So here you have it people, THE Keldeo counter!
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Specially defensive Amoonguss also takes piss damage from Keldeo's moves, resists both stabs and HP electric, and is neutral to HP ghost. He only has to fear the rare Icy Wind / HP Ice, but if Keldeo locks himself into that just switch out into an ice resist right as you come in and watch your HP fill up.

He also walls SubCM Keldeo to no end. If using Giga drain and 28 SpA EVs, he always breaks Keldeo's sub until Keldeo gets to +3. Or you can just use Seed Bomb and not give a crap about his SpD boosts.
 
Amoonguss would be a perfect counter too (Specs HP Ice 2hkoing is not a problem, because you have Regenerator and can switch into anything to take the hit after), but the problem is that he has a chance to lose from max SpA SubCM Lefties variants, and gets outright defeated by Max HP SubCM variants.
 
Offensive Espeon is especially effective against defensive teams, who primarily rely on status and resistances to beat sweepers. Statusing Espeon is difficult with Magic Bounce, and unless you have Scald + Sand/Hail even status doesn't wear it out that well. With Setupbait Tentacruel running around practically everywhere, it can even spread status by coming in on Toxic Spikes. It's an effective tool for offensively leaning teams that have trouble with stall and company.
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as i mentioned earlier, if you have your own CMer chances are you can beat espeon by getting into a cm war with it. espeon has to choose between recovery with morning sun and more coverage with which to beat opposing psychic CMers. my latias has never lost a CM war with espeon. i think i'd lose if it was running shadow ball, but you can't always find a slot to run shadow ball on espeon, now can you?

and definitely xatu is the superior magic bouncer in general. even against stall i'd say it's superior. it'll never end the game against stall where as a boosted espeon can, but stall will NEVER KILL XATU unless it packs a strong SE STAB, like a significantly invested tyranitar. roost and uturn make a lot of difference (morning sun having only 8pp kinda kills it against stall).

i wouldn't say magic bounce only functions on sun, or on stall. i actually don't really like magic bounce on stall; xatu is a difficult mon to run stall wise because it doesn't really have a great typing for the things that stall is already plagued by. the thing about magic bounce that makes it good is that it costs you no momentum to use it which is why many sun and volt-turn alike appreciate it so much (modern sun being quite volt-turn heavy in and of itself). spinning is a huge loss of momentum for offense teams where as magic bounce is little more than a uturn in, and another one out. that's what makes it so good. in general magic bounce can break many stall teams, but it's at its best when you have volt-turn which allows you to easily slip the bouncer in against support mons.
 
and definitely xatu is the superior magic bouncer in general. even against stall i'd say it's superior. it'll never end the game against stall where as a boosted espeon can, but stall will NEVER KILL XATU unless it packs a strong SE STAB, like a significantly invested tyranitar. roost and uturn make a lot of difference (morning sun having only 8pp kinda kills it against stall).
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U-turn is nothing unique to Xatu, as Espeon has Baton Pass, which is the same and sometimes even better, as it lets you escape from slower Pursuit users. Yeah U-turn does a bit of damage, but the main purpose of both moves on pokes such as Espeon and Xatu is momentum gaining. Xatu's advantages are reliable recovery in any weather, and better typing (Heat Wave is nice too, but not THE reason to use Xatu, as Espeon can hurt Steels too with HP Fire, which is almost as strong as Xatu's Heat Wave).
 
ironically, though, espeon and xatu's movepool differences mean that espeon often doesn't have room to run BP on its sets, where as xatu has only one set and it ALWAYS runs uturn. espeon always needs a psychic attack. then if you run screens, you have to choose between bp, a second attack and morning sun. if you run cm, you have two moveslots but now you need a second attack so you still only have one slot to use for BP, morning sun or your third attack (and because psychic is a shit typing, you'll always be walled unless you run 3 attacks). compare to xatu, who always runs uturn and roost because they're among its best moves

i don't deny that espeon CAN run bp, but it often cannot because its 4mss is way worse than xatu's, where as xatu never has that conflict. i wonder if xatu would have that conflict, if it knew CM? we'll never know
 
It doesn't matter if it has 4 mss, because she still has the capability to use it. So if Espeon had the same typing as Xatu and reliable recovery, she would use it, to do what Xatu does, but with more speed and special bulk, and a bit less physical bulk.
 
alexwolf said:
U-turn is nothing unique to Xatu, as Espeon has Baton Pass, which is the same and sometimes even better, as it lets you escape from slower Pursuit users. Yeah U-turn does a bit of damage, but the main purpose of both moves on pokes such as Espeon and Xatu is momentum gaining. Xatu's advantages are reliable recovery in any weather, and better typing (Heat Wave is nice too, but not THE reason to use Xatu, as Espeon can hurt Steels too with HP Fire, which is almost as strong as Xatu's Heat Wave).
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The difference between U-turn and Baton Pass is that U-turn goes last (since Xatu isn't speedy), giving you switch advantage, whereas Espeon is usually ran at max speed with 110 base speed, which can't give you momentum. On stall teams, like you mentioned, non-speed invested espeon might work , but xatu's typing is usually appreciated on stall teams (fight resist / not u-turn weak). Not to mention Xatu can fit on a volt-turn core whereas Espeon can't. Heat wave is stronger than HP Fire as you mention (and if Scizor is in rain, it can U-turn on Espeon whereas Xatu doesn't mind a U-turn), but also, Xatu can take bullet punch and espeon can't, so it checks Scizor much better. Not to mention it resists fighting types on stall teams, which has its uses, and also isn't taking SE damage from U-turns. As you also said, Xatu gets healing in any weather, and it has more PP js. So Xatu would fit on more stall teams in general since Espeon can work in certain weathers properly with morning sun while Xatu can work on any stall team. Just saying that xatu doesn't fear pursuit trapping that much anyways so its generally better for switch advanatge, whereas baton pass can't so u-turn IS unique.

Edit: Not just stall teams, but even offensive-based teams, unless baton pass themed.
 
Shurtugal said:
The difference between U-turn and Baton Pass is that U-turn goes last (since Xatu isn't speedy), giving you switch advantage, whereas Espeon is usually ran at max speed with 110 base speed, which can't give you momentum. On stall teams, like you mentioned, non-speed invested espeon might work , but xatu's typing is usually appreciated on stall teams (fight resist / not u-turn weak). Not to mention Xatu can fit on a volt-turn core whereas Espeon can't. Heat wave is stronger than HP Fire as you mention (and if Scizor is in rain, it can U-turn on Espeon whereas Xatu doesn't mind a U-turn), but also, Xatu can take bullet punch and espeon can't, so it checks Scizor much better. Not to mention it resists fighting types on stall teams, which has its uses, and also isn't taking SE damage from U-turns. As you also said, Xatu gets healing in any weather, and it has more PP js. So Xatu would fit on more stall teams in general since Espeon can work in certain weathers properly with morning sun while Xatu can work on any stall team. Just saying that xatu doesn't fear pursuit trapping that much anyways so its generally better for switch advanatge, whereas baton pass can't so u-turn IS unique.

Edit: Not just stall teams, but even offensive-based teams, unless baton pass themed.
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You didn't understand me. I only said that the main reasons to use Xatu over Espeon are reliable recovery and flying typing. U-turn and Heat Wave are easily replaced by Baton Pass and HP Fire, so they are not the reasons to use Xatu over Espeon.
 
alexwolf said:
Posting to say that Keldeo has one true counter, because DFA claimed he didn't, and this is SpDefensive Celebi with a moveset of Giga Drain, Recover, Perish Song, U-turn / Baton Pass / Hidden Power Fire. Check out some calcs:


  • Specs rain Hydro Pump: 38.86 - 46.03%, never 2HKO after SR.
  • Specs HP Ghost: 40.59 - 48.01%, 10.94% chance to 2hko after SR. 11% chance to get 2hkoed by a move that is rare on the not most used set of Keldeo (Icy Wind + HP Electric is the most common combo on Specs Keldeo), WITH SR up.
  • +1 LO HP Ice: 52.97 - 62.37%, while Giga Drain does 35.91 - 43.34% to +1 Keldeo, which means that you 2HKO Keldeo, while it can't 2HKO back (2 Giga Drain do 72% damage min, so after Keldeo has taken SR damage and 2 LO rounds, he is dead). Keldeo can't 3hko back because of the Lefties and Giga Drain healing.
  • +1 HP Ice: 40.59 - 48.01%, which means that you can use Perish Song, avoid the 2hko and burn the 2 turns with Recover (without Perish Song, you can lose from Lefties CM Keldeo, especially if it is running HP evs).
So here you have it people, THE Keldeo counter!
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Wow, a counter to Keldeo. However, your calculations show that Keldeo still hits Celebi like a truck, this is just to show the sheer power of Keldeo, and that it should not be understimated. It's like Slowbro, who can shrug off some hits from Terrakion, but will fall to repeated Stone Edges, since it hits him like a steamroller.
 
@the sandslash comment, yes Slash can be useful on Sand teams, as someone said, it is basically a bulky Exca but you're not weak to all kinds of priority (though you do gain an Ice Shard weakness, it isn't huge, Mamo can't do massive amounts to Slash anyways) and it's pretty cool to be honest.

Espeon vs. Xatu is a stupid arguement and I have no idea why Espeon is so far ahead of Xatu, ESPECIALLY when people talk about OFFENSIVE Espeon. Espeon is better than Xatu on two kinds of teams: dedicated Pass teams, and Smashpass teams. Other than that, Xatu. Xatu's U-turn definitely adds up as I run Attack EVs on Gene and vs. Latias, U-turn does like 90% and Xatu can definitely make up for that. Plus, Xatu has Heatwave, can actually live a few Pursuits, and can withstand things with Gyro Ball due to its lower speed, higher bulk, and reliable recovery. Offensive Espeon? Really? With Gene everywhere? Scizor? Pursuittar? Lati@s? And vs all of those, Xatu can Twave or Toxic and cripple (Gene and Latios in the case of Twave, Latias for Toxic), Heatwave and flat out roast (Gene, Scizor), or just U-turn and dent it a bit (Ttar, Lati@s) and with hazards, things weak to U-turn don't like switching into Xatu multiple times, as although it IS a weak hit, it does add up.

So yeah, Xatu>>>>>>>>>Espeon.
 
alkinesthetase said:
ironically, though, espeon and xatu's movepool differences mean that espeon often doesn't have room to run BP on its sets, where as xatu has only one set and it ALWAYS runs uturn. espeon always needs a psychic attack. then if you run screens, you have to choose between bp, a second attack and morning sun. if you run cm, you have two moveslots but now you need a second attack so you still only have one slot to use for BP, morning sun or your third attack (and because psychic is a shit typing, you'll always be walled unless you run 3 attacks). compare to xatu, who always runs uturn and roost because they're among its best moves

i don't deny that espeon CAN run bp, but it often cannot because its 4mss is way worse than xatu's, where as xatu never has that conflict. i wonder if xatu would have that conflict, if it knew CM? we'll never know
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I used Espeon in a HO as a Screener and my fourth move was Baton Pass, only for running away from Pursuit and also, to gain momentum as a pseudo U-turn. I don't think Morning Sun or second attack is better. If Morning Sun was like Recover..., maybe.

Yes, Psychic as a neutral STAB sucks but it is the price to pay for to have a wonderful ability.

In the war of Xatu-Espeon, there isn't one better all the times than the other, they have different niches.
 
so what defensive ghosts have people tried in OU, besides jellicent? i'm actually looking at mismagius right now because its support movepool is absolute lunacy (Gengar is the only other ghost with perish song, froslass and gengar are the only two other ghosts with a fast taunt, and mismagius is the ONLY ghost with heal bell) and its special defense is superior to gengar's, at the cost of being vulnerable to toxic. i haven't actually used it yet though because let's face it, 60/60/105 bulk is pretty pathetic. anybody else explored defensive ghost options outside of OU? any interesting niches?
 
Cofagrigus is cool for Mummy and those astounding defenses (lol Scizor and Conkeldurr) but isn't that great in practice. Sableye is still Sableye. Froslass is only really good in Hail since it's weak and frail. Golurk can set up SR, spinblock, and check Terrakion all in one. That's all I can really think of defensively (and Golurk is more like bulky offense anyway).
 
Golurk isn't very good in pratice. It can spinblock it's own Stealth Rock? Yes, it's true, but... Starmie with Hydro Pump... Tentacruel with Scald...

Dusclops actually has solid defenses despite its 40 base HP. I have used him for a time, and I can say that it is actually terrible. It has solid bulk, but lacks reliable recovery, and it can't fight back against most things.

I haven't yet tried Mismagius, so I can't say how it does. At the moment the only defensive Ghost-type that is really good, however, is Jellicent. It's a shame that the metagame lacks solid options for Ghost-types in both offensive and defensive sides...
 
I've been seeing a number of Deo-D + Cofagrigus teams around the place, and I'm relatively impressed with them. Cofagrigus isn't half bad as an offensive spin-blocker, its massive bulk lets you take on common spin-blockers, while not being completely offensively shit like Jellicent (unless you use Specs, lol) because it can use that Trick Room + Nasty Plot set which could actually get quite nasty if you're unprepared for it. Couple that with a Trick Room Reuniclus and you have the option of having partial Trick Room, partial standard offense team.
 
i have heard a lot about nasty room cofag - it was actually the first RU set I EVER read! - but i don't love it in OU because you need two turns to set up. that is a LOT to ask for right now, although i can see how mons like deoxys-D help with that problem.

looked at golurk because it resisted terrakion's stabs, that already was a compelling reason to use it, but i couldn't convince myself of its bulk and pathetic speed in OU. the game seriously needs some steel/ghost lovin (imagine kitsunoh's typing with levitate... my stall team would cry tears of joy)

dusclops has always sucked in OU and i think it's obvious why... it does like nothing lol, it just sits there. i once actually faced a dusknoir in OU though and believe it or not it was even worse than dusclops. it had less bulk and did like nothing. i accidentally switched in tentacruel on it forgetting it had earthquake, but i only made that mistake because my opponent seemed to have forgotten that EQ hits poison types super effectively, because he'd previously been shadow balling cruel for 17% at a time. too bad because dusknoir has some serious class, being a major character of DS pokemon mystery dungeon games.

sableye made me sad when i used it. it's much better suited to an offensive team who needs one slot that will royally screw stall, than it is to a stall team trying to glue. i was actually running it for the priority taunt because i had lost to BP just 10 minutes before and damn was i pissed. has like no bulk though so having priority recover means absolutely nothing.

and finally, jellicent. i actually used jellicent in BW1 and loved it, although i hated how it lost to starmie (you can't really stall out tbolt with recover even if you're specially defensive enough to take them... a crit will kill you long before starmie runs out, unless you're a cursed body jelly). tentacruel is my bulky water right now though (stronger rain counter than jellicent being the main reason) so the typing overlap is too much of a risk. ima try mismagius next time i ladder with my stall team, we'll see what happens
 
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