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Bye bye Latias! Bring in the apes...
- Thread starter firecape
- Start date
I think Zapdos is going to make it back. It was basically never used in the Latias metagame because it was walled by Latias and was inferior to Latias in terms of pretty much everything.
NPApe is going to be extremely dangerous with Nasty Plot/Fire Blast/Focus Blast/Vacuum Wave. Pretty much the only counters for this set are Tentacruel, Defensive Starmie, Bulky Gyarados and Cresselia, yet, with the exception of Tentacruel, they all have the chance of being OHKOed after SR and a NP. Vacuum Wave is mainly for ScarfTar but considering it will probably decrease in usage due to to absence of Latias, Grass Knot will be a better option as it allows me to OHKO Bulky Gyarados and Defensive Starmie, leaving just Tentacruel and Cresselia as counters. Tentacruel can be trapped and OHKOed by Dugtrio while Cresselia can be worn down by Pursuit from the likes of Tyranitar.
NPApe is going to be extremely dangerous with Nasty Plot/Fire Blast/Focus Blast/Vacuum Wave. Pretty much the only counters for this set are Tentacruel, Defensive Starmie, Bulky Gyarados and Cresselia, yet, with the exception of Tentacruel, they all have the chance of being OHKOed after SR and a NP. Vacuum Wave is mainly for ScarfTar but considering it will probably decrease in usage due to to absence of Latias, Grass Knot will be a better option as it allows me to OHKO Bulky Gyarados and Defensive Starmie, leaving just Tentacruel and Cresselia as counters. Tentacruel can be trapped and OHKOed by Dugtrio while Cresselia can be worn down by Pursuit from the likes of Tyranitar.
Then of course there is Vaporeon, who completely walls that set.
Standard Nasty Plot Infernape deals 101.3% - 119.4% to standard wish support Vaporeon with focus blast after a nasty plot, so Vaporeon doesn't wall the set completely.
I like this change. While I disagree that Latias was "uncounterable", when threads like this occur and people respond with "Crap, there go 66% of my teams", something is wrong. No Pokemon should be that good that you want to use it on 2 out of 3 teams you build. What makes Latias so dangerous is not that it has no counters, it's the fact that it is so versatile. Latias is impossible to counter because if you counter it wrong, you lose 3 pokemon. I don't think people put enough value on versatility. What makes Pokemon like Jirachi and Latias so awesome is not that they have great stats (the fact that they do merely makes their other strengths more obvious), no, their real strength is the fact that you do not know what is coming. Jirachi and Latias can both run pretty much any type of set in the world, and therefore are impossible to counter with one pokemon. Latias had to Uber because in addition to needing a variety of counters for each form of Latias, it always has a STABed Draco Meteor behind it. And that's just wrong.
As for what's coming in the metagame, I haven't tested numbers yet, but something tells me that a defensive Tyranitar will be rape considering that Latias was the main TTar counter.
As for what's coming in the metagame, I haven't tested numbers yet, but something tells me that a defensive Tyranitar will be rape considering that Latias was the main TTar counter.
Only surf from Latias with choice specs 2KOs 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar. Bulky Tyranitar (252 HP / 216 Special Defence, Careful) is 3KO'd by specs surf! Defensive Latias's dragon pulse only does 14.4% - 17.3% to the same Bulky Tyranitar. So when you say Latias OHKO'd Tyranitar no matter how you EV'd Tyranitar, you're clearly wrong.
I think you've got that the wrong way around.
I predict that Lucario, particularly physical variants, will drop in usage. This is because Latias was an excellent lure for things that SD Lucario can easily set up on, not to mention Lucario and Latias' perfect synergy in terms of weaknesses and resistances.
Well, Pokémon like Infernape will be rampant, but the revival of a number of specially-oriented Pokémon will bolster Tyranitar's effectiveness for sure. While I see the usage of Scarf Tyranitar going down rather drastically (though it might not show up so visibly in the stats, since it's so late in the month already), there's no doubt imo that Tyranitar will continue to rock. I just don't think people will feel it's necessary to deal with Latias or anything anymore.
Yeah, I'm going to miss using Latias as Pursuit bait... LatiLuke was my favourite offensive combination and was present on a number of my Latias-era teams. :( It's hard to tell about Lucario, imo, since while it will miss Latias's insane support capabilities, it won't miss Scarf Tyranitar (no more Bullet Punch? Screw Gengar @_@), but it also won't appreciate the presence of more Salamence, and Zapdos will annoy it a bit. I'm not sure how effective Lucario will be anymore, but it's still pretty good, so we'll have to see!
Lucario is one of those pokemon that has always been better on paper than in practicality. Sure, on paper, he's got great typing, a solid movepool, and agility or swords dance. But what exactly in the metagame is he going to be setting up on? With EQ and *insert a fire move here* being so prevalent and easily available for many Pokemon, Luke is always destined to be the perfect candidate to be passed a substitute + boost, and little else beyond a niche sweeper.
Completely untrue. I don't know how to explain what you have already seen on paper, but Lucario in practice is a very efficient lategame sweeper. He sets up easily on Pursuit, Rock-type attacks, Choice-locked Pokémon, a forced switch, ... list goes on. I mean, what does Infernape set up on? In short, he plays like your standard frail sweeper. I don't think an offensively-oriented Pokémon that hangs around the top ten usage is much of a 'niche sweeper'.
maybe more luke are going to be running stone edge now. SD/ES/CC/Stone edge seems like the best set to use now. Since Gyarados will most likely be prominent on stall teams to deal with infernape this seems like a good gyarados/bulky zapdos lure.
and is grass knot fixed yet?? if not i dont think a +2 GK kills 252/4 gyarados after SR damage
EDIT: from 252 neutral natured infernape of course
EDIT: from 252 neutral natured infernape of course
Nah, it hasn't been fixed yet. Don't think it's likely to be fixed in Shoddy 1, given the current policy of not correcting the glitches in the existing simulator in favour of working on the new one. With no SpDef, though, the 2HKO is certain, even without SR.
252 Timid Life Orb Infernape +2 Grass Knot vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Gyarados: 73.9% - 87.1%
without LO: 56.9% - 67%
So Gyarados comes in on the NP, takes a huge hit, but can still kill it, assuming the monkey stays in.
252 Timid Life Orb Infernape +2 Grass Knot vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Gyarados: 73.9% - 87.1%
without LO: 56.9% - 67%
So Gyarados comes in on the NP, takes a huge hit, but can still kill it, assuming the monkey stays in.
I like these changes. we're going to finally be out of the steel/dragon gridlock that tay predicted oh so long ago in his team pride and prejudice. for each dragon we ban, we further nerf the steels, as their most valuable (and unique) resistance was to dragon, and it will become a less prevalent type. if we ban salamence, the only dragon type with base 100 speed will be flygon, as opposed to flygon, garchomp, salamence, and latias. however, these dragons also checked the elemental types, water, fire, electric, and grass extremely well, and these are types that steels don't do so well against. I think that there will be a huge rise in usage of the sweepers of those types, some standouts (imo) being zapdos and infernape. the metagame will focus on these types I think, and the metagame is going to turn very speed-oriented, like late d/p. if salamence gets banned, I would not be surprised if scizor falls out of #1, that's how hard steels get nerfed when dragons get banned. that may be a little far.
I think that this metagame will be very fun, as there will be a lot more diversity and, as I said, we won't be in that damned steel/dragon gridlock anymore.
I think that this metagame will be very fun, as there will be a lot more diversity and, as I said, we won't be in that damned steel/dragon gridlock anymore.
the ironic thing was I just caugt a Latias in Sapphire, then built a team around it today, Lol. buuut, I guess it had to be done(the meta was too much ground/steel/dragon), though I want my 3 hours of life back.
oh well, might as well make an uber team, LOL.
oh well, might as well make an uber team, LOL.
I understand that. I chose Latias to be my first RNG abuse in my real SS cart.
I caught it the day before Latias was banned, oh well. I am glad she was banned, though.
BTW, aren't all Sapphire Latiases really bad Iv-wise?
Dragonite, I guess. Or maybe Flygon. It's a dragon themed team, so there aren't that many options.
EQ says hi.
Back to the first stages of platinum xd
Latias is going to be hardest to replace on stall teams IMO.
Everyone is saying Infernape will be great, but what about heatran? It just lost its best counter.
Everyone is saying Infernape will be great, but what about heatran? It just lost its best counter.
None of those really have much bulk. I think (I don't know cause I nver used Latias that much) the appeal of Latias was it's dragon typing (lots of resists) and good defence combined with realiable recovery and good sp. Atk to boot. I'm not saying there isn't another pokemon who can do that, I haven't checked yet. But you don't find a pokemon with all those traits easily.