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Bye bye Latias! Bring in the apes...

Then again, Scizor's rather OP in OU too. Both of them deserved the boot more than Latias.
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Scizor is slower than everything and has a powerful, but terribly-typed STAB priority move. I can name a lot of things that can take a Uturn/Bullet Punch or two and kill it with health to spare, like Gyarados, Jirachi, Lucario, and Infernape. Scizor U-turning the entire match instead of abusing the one thing that makes it good just racks up SR damage and allows almost anything to take it out afterward. Bullet Punch doesn't make up for the fact that it's just plain too slow and U-turn doesn't hit anywhere near hard enough to make it a serious threat.

Either you have to be able to switch in a full health Cress the instant you see Mence
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So you can Ice Beam and OHKO? I think that's what you meant to say.
 
Dragonite has 100% replaced Mence in the suspect testing. He is on every team. His DD Outrage is equally as powerful as Salamence's. He also fills out perfect coverage. He can also run a wallbreaking set even easier (for against stall, not offense). Is Dragonite broken too? This I ask you. Speed doesn't matter much when you're behind a DD and the only option for either is to revenge kill, now does it? They're on the same level and, at the moment, Dragonite usage is completely ridiculous. It is honestly on 90%+ of the teams I've seen.
 
I see an increase in Starmie usage, because if Infernape does become as popular as everyone suggests, people will start looking for something to stop it, and Starmie takes super effective damage only from U-turn and Grass Knot. And resists everything other than those two as well as Stone Edge, which it takes neutral damage from. So there are a plethora of oppurtunities for it to switch in, and it can out speed Infernape, and OHKO it with either Surf or Hydro Pump.
 
Class said:
Dragonite has 100% replaced Mence in the suspect testing. He is on every team. His DD Outrage is equally as powerful as Salamence's. He also fills out perfect coverage. He can also run a wallbreaking set even easier (for against stall, not offense). Is Dragonite broken too? This I ask you. Speed doesn't matter much when you're behind a DD and the only option for either is to revenge kill, now does it? They're on the same level and, at the moment, Dragonite usage is completely ridiculous. It is honestly on 90%+ of the teams I've seen.
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I'd bet 90% of those are using Dnite either because their out to prove that DNite can be as good as Mence or because they have Mence on their team and just hastily replaced it with the closest possible counterpart.
 
What really gets me upset is that Latias got banned only 3 days ago, and now everyone wants to jump in and get rid of Mence, as well as the number of people there are claiming Dragonite has to be banned. W/ Latias gone, many of the Metagame will shift and teams will change to accomadate the loss of a good Special Defender/Attacker. Many Pokemon will rise and drop in usage, and as such, many people are testing teams w/o Latias worries. I.e. Latias was more of a threat to my stall team than Mence, CM and Roosting in my face while I tried setting up on it. Salamence DDs, but after a while, LO, SS, Poison, Confusion, etc usually stopped him from KOing more than one of My Pokemon. As such, many people are testing out stall w/o Latias, b/c stall has heavily increased in usage and I doubt that was entirely Mence's fault.

I think there needs to be more time to allow the metagame to re-shift itself b4 we remove something as large as Mence.


BTW, I doubt Dragonite will do that exceptional in ubers. Salamence/Chomp at least outrun a number of Pokemon, while Dragonite is out sped and dented by Spacial Rends, STAB Draco Meteors from base 150 Sp Attack, and Ice Beam.
 
I posted a minute ago, but I wasn't quite happy with it and wasn't sure anyone would look back at my edit, so I'll just delete that and post this. Then again, this is the Latias thread, so whatever. Why was the argument I was responding to even in here?

ok, before any one of you ever says that again, I want you to think of what the most important aspect of actually being a counter is: switching in relatively safely and posing an immediate threat to the Pokemon in. Weavile cannot do that, it is a revenge killer. Scizor switching in on a Fire Blast will make you look stupid and if Bullet Punch doesn't KO, you're losing that Scizor of yours. If I prevent rocks or spin them out, Scizor doesn't do a damn thing until I've damaged/killed at least four Pokemon. Tyranitar can't switch in and KO under any circumstances. Draco Meteor doesn't need to KO Vappy and Suicune, it just needs to hit them on the switch-in and a subsequent attack will take them out. In fact, if they're at about 70% with no boosts, I can bring Mence in and end them with a Draco Meteor.

Switching in on Mence is difficult as fuck because it has perfect coverage, great offenses on both sides, and at least 100 BP on all its moves. There's nothing easy about taking that out and if you claim it is, you're an inexperienced player and your bias will only hold this discussion down.
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This. In fact, the 100 BP thing is an understatement when you consider the other multipliers:

Draco Meteor vs a non-steel: 210
Outrage vs a non-steel: 180
Earthquake vs a steel: 200
Fire Blast vs a steel: 240

It might as well be hitting the entire freaking metagame super-effective at once. If it wasn't for Scizor I wonder if there would even be any argument about Salamence's (or for that matter, Latias's) status.

While other pokemon have "checks" with no counters as well, it is important to remember that Salamence can still hit all of his checks super effectively/hard with just Draco Meteor / Outrage / Earthquake / Fire Blast. Lucario can't run Bullet Punch / Extremespeed / Crunch / SD / CC / Ice Punch all on one set, and Gengar can't run Substitute / Pain Split / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / HP Fire, either.
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This, too. Salamence doesn't need to use weird sets. Infernape being able to use Earthquake, Thunderpunch, Stone Edge, etc doesn't matter if it doesn't have room for all the moves it needs at once. Salamence does. Salamence doesn't need to use weird moves to get past its counters, it simply doesn't have them to begin with. The only things I can think of that can take it on are Regirock in sandstorm and Cresselia, neither of which is all that great in OU to be honest... nor are they capable of quickly healing afterward. It's still just a temporary fix.

I must have been arguing about this stuff on Shoddy for hours today. The number of people saying "I hate Smogon, I'm quitting OU" or "x counters it with priority/scarf" is appalling. Guess what. If you get in Mamoswine/Weavile to use Ice Shard or whatever your revenge killing technique is, you had to have sent it out after something on your team fainted already, and it only gets more kills the next time it comes in. When Salamence comes in on something that doesn't outspeed it or survive one of its attacks and doesn't carry a move to kill it with (many Choiced Pokemon among them), you have to choose something on your team to be used as death fodder immediately, or just vow to never use that Pokemon at all. That's just wrong.

I've heard the argument that you're an idiot and deserve to lose if you let Salamence use Dragon Dance. So basically, we all have to use Scizor/random Scarfer, often sac something every game, and never use Ground/Fire moves with Scarftran/Scarfgon, and never use stuff like HP Electric Vaporeon. Yeah... sometimes the anti-ban arguments provide better reasons for the ban, ironically.

Sorry for going off-topic, if I did.
 
You know what's funny? Before the tests to see if Mence was UBER, not too many people complained that Mence was UBER. Now, half of the community are arguing about it.
 
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but one thing that sets dragonite apart from salamence is its access to a priority move...extremespeed. Also, dragonite is able to hit harder than salamence does with fighting type moves, as salamence doesn't get superpower. Another interesting thing about dragonite is that he's able to increase his speed a lot quicker if he desires, as salamence doesn't have access to agility.
 
You know what's funny? Before the tests to see if Mence was UBER, not too many people complained that Mence was UBER. Now, half of the community are arguing about it.
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Seeing Latias banned makes half the community think this needs to be banned, then this, then this, until half of OU is in Ubers.

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but one thing that sets dragonite apart from salamence is its access to a priority move...extremespeed. Also, dragonite is able to hit harder than salamence does with fighting type moves, as salamence doesn't get superpower. Another interesting thing about dragonite is that he's able to increase his speed a lot quicker if he desires, as salamence doesn't have access to agility.
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It's mainly the extra speed that separates the 2. There move pools follow similar trends bar the examples you gave. Most usually go w/ DD over Agility b/c the attack boost.
 
It's the same trash we heard with Garchomp. I agree that he showed some serious centralization, but everyone is over-estimating these pokemon. You have to use the pokemon you like to win, and although the selection is somewhat small, it's totally possible. I do it. I have been for a while now.
And I'd like to make a note to all, that mostly bad players are the source of all this malcontent.
 
Seeing Latias banned makes half the community think this needs to be banned, then this, then this, until half of OU is in Ubers.
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More like people have realized that "4th gen Pokemon have no counters, only checks" was unacceptable and stupid, and could be changed fairly easily because it only applied to a few Pokemon. Dragonite isn't getting banned because it's too slow, Flygon isn't getting banned because it's too weak, Infernape isn't getting banned because it doesn't have enough moveslots, etc. There isn't a slippery slope and I wish the bitching about it would stop.

I get the "just play the game the way it was given to you and shut up" viewpoint, but we'd still be using Wobbuffet and Garchomp if we followed that idea.
 
In addition, people are taking advantage of specialize pokemon. You don't have to use only the movesets/EV sets posted on smogon. Use a little ingenuity. I used to run a Zapdos that effectively countered Salamence EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. no joke.
 
In addition, people are taking advantage of specialize pokemon. You don't have to use only the movesets/EV sets posted on smogon. Use a little ingenuity. I used to run a Zapdos that effectively countered Salamence EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. no joke.
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I ran a stall team that only feared Suicune and Latias, and only them b/c they kept setting up on me. Mence wasn't an issue b/c residual damage kept him from sweeping.
Many would rather ban him so they don't have to try thinking outside the box. Shoddy is plagued by Cookie Cutter OU teams.

Another way of getting rid of Mence is switching something faster in on a DD before it boosts too much an KO it.
 
Speed doesn't matter much when you're behind a DD
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It does when you're being checked/countered by Flygon and Jirachi. Also, having lower speed and no Intimidate makes you much less threatening to the likes of sweepers like Lucario and Gyarados both of whom are capable of outpacing and KOing you anyway.

Plus, Mence isn't broken for just DD, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. One of the key roles Mence fulfills that Dragonite doesn't is as a mixed attacker. Believe it or not, if you want Dragonite to actually perform anywhere near half as well as a mixed attacker, you're going to have to gimp him on a lot of speed and concentrate solely on beating walls. Mence doesn't have to sacrifice anything because it already has sufficient speed and special attack, meaning it can throw some leftover EVs into attack get some extra KOs.

In fact, let's take a look at all the things Salamence can reliably beat by tying or outspeeding them that Dragonite can't:

Dragonite (lol)
Electivire (go ahead and laugh, but it's still OU, some people are going to use it, and if you face it, you can't kill it)
Flygon
Gliscor (some run Ice Fang as it is and in the face of this suspect test, expect to see more of it)
Gyarados
Heracross
Kingdra
Lucario (note that this is a much bigger deal than most, as Salamence is one of the main checks for Lucario)
Suicune

That list alone is going to keep Dragonite from going the same route as Mence, and we're not even going to count the speed loss Dragonite incurs just trying to run mixed sets. Also, consider that 100 vs. 110 Sp. Att, as a Draco Meteor into Fire Blast won't always work for Dragonite the same way it does for Salamence.

@ Airfoil: I'm sorry, but could you just like, gtfo this thread or something? There's zero logic or reasoning behind any of your claims and you're just going to give other newbies an excuse to bandwagon off of your horrible ideas and muck up this thread like they did the last one.
 
Airfoil said:
Another way of getting rid of Mence is switching something faster in on a DD before it boosts too much an KO it.
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......

It doesn't matter if it's faster if it's not a 100+ base speed Scarfer (which you're most likely only using to kill Salamence anyway). And, you know, just pray it doesn't attack instead, like the arguably more dangerous Mixmence always will.

Many would rather ban him so they don't have to try thinking outside the box. Shoddy is plagued by Cookie Cutter OU teams.
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We've tried and failed to find counters that aren't overspecialized dead weight. The only thing you really described was Sandstorm and Stealth Rock, which everyone uses on their "Cookie Cutter OU teams" already. It doesn't really work, apparently.

EDIT: @ below Pumping EVs and thinking makes you immune to confusion, huh? You people really need to stop acting like others are dumb for not having solutions to things if you don't have them either. All you do is insult the community instead of actually give some sort of argument or helpful suggestions. For all I know, Airfoil and ohittoku are the same person.

I predict this post and some of the others being moved to the Salamence area later...
 
Airfoil said:
I ran a stall team that only feared Suicune and Latias, and only them b/c they kept setting up on me. Mence wasn't an issue b/c residual damage kept him from sweeping.
Many would rather ban him so they don't have to try thinking outside the box. Shoddy is plagued by Cookie Cutter OU teams.

Another way of getting rid of Mence is switching something faster in on a DD before it boosts too much an KO it.
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See? You can think of things to do. I'm all for democracy, but in this case, I think the nublets need to be silenced. I have never once played Smogon, pre-Garban, or post-soul dew clause and not enjoed myself. It's about the pokemon you're using, not the ones you're fighting. Take Machamp for instance. I have a really good team, and I'm a decent player. But that fucker rips through me like no tomorrow. Do I clamour for a ban? No. I pump up some EVs and think a little.
 
I won't be able to ladder until Summer vacation comes in my area. So I have a question to ask. What has been replacing Latias so far? I would think that Starmie and Zapdos would be the prime pokemon for this since Starmie checks Infernape while Zapdos plays the role of the bulky special attacker.
 
Airfoil said:
I ran a stall team that only feared Suicune and Latias, and only them b/c they kept setting up on me. Mence wasn't an issue b/c residual damage kept him from sweeping.
Many would rather ban him so they don't have to try thinking outside the box. Shoddy is plagued by Cookie Cutter OU teams.

Another way of getting rid of Mence is switching something faster in on a DD before it boosts too much an KO it.
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Sorry for sounding like a noob, but what exactly is a cookie cutter OU team?
 
Agent123 said:
You know what's funny? Before the tests to see if Mence was UBER, not too many people complained that Mence was UBER. Now, half of the community are arguing about it.
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Not true, there were 2 social groups dedicated to banning it. And there was probably many not even in the social group. After all, the reason he's being tested is that theres enough support in the first place. People are just posting publicly about it because then was not the time.

And I don't know why, but every team I face has a rotom. Guess what the biggest threat to my team is?
Scarfrotom
 
Everyday, I ask my friends, do you think Latias or blissey should be uber?

And almost everytime they say no.

Now, we can rejoice in the fact that one less dragon plagues the metagame.

But hey, now when I make a Latias, I know what I'll name it. Mtn Dew and Soul Jew come to mind.

Still, despite what was said above, I did enjoy my Latias. Going to be hard to replace.
 
Class said:
Dragonite has 100% replaced Mence in the suspect testing. He is on every team. His DD Outrage is equally as powerful as Salamence's. He also fills out perfect coverage. He can also run a wallbreaking set even easier (for against stall, not offense). Is Dragonite broken too? This I ask you. Speed doesn't matter much when you're behind a DD and the only option for either is to revenge kill, now does it? They're on the same level and, at the moment, Dragonite usage is completely ridiculous. It is honestly on 90%+ of the teams I've seen.
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False. Speed plays a factor by a large amount. You have to consider the fact of who can revenge kill what. Scarfed pokemon can revenge kill easier without worrying about the speed tie, and then you have to take into consideration the EV spread difference. To match a good speed you have to dump more EV's on Dragonite, thus losing either bulk, or potential power somewhere else. Sal having base 100 for speed is a bit too much, since the amount of power it has is overwhelming on majority of the OU Metagame.
 
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