CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[DarkBlazeR]

tl;dr - skip to the last paragraph.

I'd just like to say that I'm convinced that Weak Armor alone will not be sufficient in the speed boosting department. Realistically, even with 110 HP / 99 Def it will be very difficult to switch into a physical attack Aurumoth can tank while uninvested - it takes a ton of prediction to pull off, moreso than would be ideal in the current metagame. It absolutely needs Rapid Spin and/or Magic Bounce support, otherwise hazards will lead to its quick demise. With Team Preview, it is very unlikely your opponent will be foolish enough to mindlessly throw around Fighting/Ground attacks. The second problem is that it is still easily revenged killed by every common Scarfer at +1 due to its mediocre Speed tier, including the ubiquitous Genesect. Also, at -1 Defense Aurumoth is at high risk of being revenge killed by priority users (I think some people in this thread might even be forgetting that Weak Armor lowers your Defense stat). Here are some calculations from some of OU's most common priority users: (Note that I deliberately excluded Mach Punch users due to Aurumoth having a 4x resistance to Fighting)

Adamant CB Scizor Bullet Punch vs -1 Defense 0/4 Aurumoth: 67.87% - 79.78%
(possible OHKO after SR, guaranteed OHKO after SR + 1 layer of Spikes)
Jolly LO Scizor Bullet Punch vs -1 Defense 0/4 Aurumoth: 53.74% - 63.16%
Adamant CB Dragonite Extremespeed vs -1 Defense 0/4 Aurumoth: 61.50% - 72.23%
(high chance to OHKO after SR + 1 layer of Spikes)
Adamant +0 Dragonite Extremespeed vs -1 Defense 0/4 Aurumoth: 41.27% - 48.48%
Adamant LO Lucario Extremespeed vs -1 Defense 0/4 Aurumoth: 42.38% - 49.86%
Jolly LO Mamoswine Ice Shard vs -1 Defense 0/4 Aurumoth: 36.01% - 42.38%
Jolly non-LO Mamoswine Ice Shard vs -1 Defense 0/4 Aurumoth: 27.98% - 32.69%
Jolly CB Terrakion Quick Attack vs -1 Defense 0/4 Aurumoth: 27.42% - 32.41%
Adamant LO Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs -1 Defense 0/4 Aurumoth: 71.47% - 84.21%
(possible OHKO after SR, guaranteed OHKO after SR + 1 layer of Spikes)
Adamant CB Azumarril Aqua Jet (no rain) vs -1 Defense 0/4 Aurumoth: 50.14% - 59.00%
Adamant CB Azumarril Aqua Jet (in rain) vs -1 Defense 0/4 Aurumoth: 75.07% - 88.09%
(guaranteed OHKO after SR)

We need to be prepared for how the metagame is going to react to Aurumoth - for example Breloom will probably start running Stone Edge more often, weak U-turns are going to be less common, CB Terrakion will likely spam Stone Edge more than Close Combat, etc. Simply put, Aurumoth definitely needs another way of boosting its Speed outside of Weak Armor, otherwise it will be a failure. Agility is an interesting option - it gives Aurumoth the jump on scarfers, and it has enough coverage to get by on a Life Orb boost alone - though the recoil will be VERY detrimental, and furthermore giving it only Agility would mean that Weak Armor would see virtually no use.

The goal of the concept was to create a high risk, high reward CAPmon. I'm worried that if we hold back on what we're giving it too much, we'll end up with something that only lasts two to three turns. If we focus all our efforts on making it as risky to use as possible without some kind of heavy reward, it'll be more trouble to use than it's worth. Contrary to popular opinion in this thread, I don't think Quiver Dance/Dragon Dance will break Aurumoth, nor are they "safe" options - just how are any set up moves in this hyperactive metagame considered "safe"?

Giving Aurumoth QD and/or DD will give it a meaningful way of being threatening in the OU metagame. Remember that this is BW2 and not DPPt; Speed is almost everything in this metagame. It is unlikely to be able to sweep with Tail Glow/Swords Dance without a Speed boost, and combining that with a Speed boost with Weak Armor will be almost impossible against a smart player. Cotton Guard seems like a bad gimmick to me; especially when players are going to be targeting its Sp. Defense as opposed to its Defense.

However, QD and DD do have application with Weak Armor. The idea is that you switch into a weak physical attack to get the initial +1 Speed, then follow up with QD or DD to get +1/+2. There's a lot of mind games in this situation - do you go ahead and set up, expecting a switch, or do you stay and outright outspeed/KO the opposing Pokemon whom predicts you will set up?

I can understand why QD may be seen as pushing the concept though. I'm fine if we decide not to give it to Aurumoth, however I feel as if it does need at least one speed-boosting move other than Agility. DD seems to be more accepted in this thread, which makes sense as it is a "tamer" move than QD. As aforementioned, Aurumoth cannot rely on Weak Armor alone for Speed, and needs to hit hard in order to be worth the risks.

Since people do have the freedom to choose which VGMs they include on their movepool submissions, I'm going to say that Quiver Dance and Dragon Dance should be allowed - just don't include them on your movepool if you have a problem with them. As for my opinions on the other discussion moves: allow Will-o-Wisp, Glare, Thunder Wave, Stun Spore and Cotton Guard, but disallow Shift Gear. Although I obviously want Aurumoth to be very good, I feel that getting +1/+2 in a single turn is just slightly too good for this 'mon. Not necessarily broken, but it detracts from the concept of using Weak Armor in the first place, and doesn't need to rely on LO to have the power to break through things, unlike the Agility set.

 

[Korski]

Okay I am going to post again about something different this time:

I think Substitute should be Disallowed!

This move is, in theory and in practice, the antithesis of our concept, entirely. It is a move that was invented so that players could specifically avoid taking risk, instead guaranteeing safety from status and damage>25% until the opponent reacts enough to hit the Sub or Phaze it away. Sure, it costs 25% of your HP, and Aurumoth is weak to Stealth Rock and just about anything can break its Sub and all that, but conceptually speaking:

Originally Posted by Fat capefeather

Justification: Many of the Pokémon that are successful in OU are relatively easy to play or have great "safe" options (e.g. U-turn). Yet, many other Pokémon look very powerful, but are less successful than they could be because of some large risks involved (e.g. Hydreigon), and some aren't successful at all (e.g. Honchkrow). This self-balancing concept intends to explore what it takes for a risky Pokémon to be successful, and how much inherent risk a Pokémon can get away with. It should be emphasized that this concept is NOT about luck management, but rather, it is about what the user can afford to do given his/her opponent's options, and vice versa.

Looking at Aurumoth now and then looking back on this makes capefeather look like some sort of sorcerer or fortune teller, but that's beside the point. Substitute is the ultimate "'safe' option." It is safe for every Pokemon, universally and irrespective of perceived power. It also dramatically limits the opponents' options, which in turn removes that aspect of "what the user can afford to do given his/her opponent's options, and vice versa," and so we learn nothing except that Substitute is still a really good safe option. For Aurumoth specifically, Substitute would be a blanket response to defensive Pokemon that could status/wear it down and a blanket cushion against faster Pokemon that can, for the most part, all O-2HKO the thing, and many of whom Aurumoth can KO with its STABs from behind the safety of its Sub. You can say what you want about Speed-boosting moves, but they don't even compare to the simplicity and ease of Substitute's safety or its interference with the risk/reward duality. Substitute is rarely, if ever, the "wrong move choice," and will even more rarely put its user at a disadvantage. With the concept of "risk" so clearly burned into the frontal lobe of CAP's collective mind-think, Substitute should be flashing red alerts everywhere. Precedent be damned; this move is bad for the concept and bad for the Pokemon.

 

[DarkBlazeR]

Actually, there is sort-of precedent for that kind of move exclusion - Regigigas cannot learn Protect or Rest by TM (technically things like Caterpie, Weedle, Magikarp etc have precedent, but they don't really count as they don't learn any TMs).

I do like the idea of disallowing Substitute, as (I think?) Weak Armor can be activated from behind a Substitute - this significantly reduces the risk of utilising it.

EDIT: Tested Weak Armor, and it in fact does not activate after a Substitute. This was what I was worried about, and it does definitely change my view a bit. However, I still think Substitute is contradictory to the concept; especially with Illusion as if a Substitute is broken, your disguise is not lost.

 

[Deck Knight]

I support Dragon Dance for an entirely different reason: It is an excellent bluffing move. A lot of the Dragons in OU are Stealth Rock weak, and this let's CAP 4 mimic them admirably, to the point the opponent won't know that Ice Beam isn't going to KO untill they face down a boosted Megahorn or Zen Headbutt instead of Outrage (a Steel threat would probably by prepared for Superpower).

Quiver Dance I think should be allowed because it combines very well with Stored Power and our Bug/Psychic type is far from invulnerable even after two boosts.

Shift Gear is something on the other hand that I feel is quite unnatural and the very fact it can boost Speed to +2 as well as an attack stat will allow Aurumoth to go very bulky since its Speed and an offense will be solved in a single set-up. Disallow.

As long as we're on the subject of stat boosters, I can't help but feel a verdict should be rendered on Baton Pass. My instinct says it fits with U-turn and Volt Switch as disallowed because of how it mitigates the Pursuit weakness, and should thus be disallowed, but our Pokemon would have a very unique competitive niche as an Illusion Pokemon that could gain a free boost with it and Baton Pass out.

 

[forestflamerunner]

Okay I am going to post again about something different this time:

I think Substitute should be Disallowed!

This move is, in theory and in practice, the antithesis of our concept, entirely. It is a move that was invented so that players could specifically avoid taking risk, instead guaranteeing safety from status and damage>25% until the opponent reacts enough to hit the Sub or Phaze it away. Sure, it costs 25% of your HP, and Aurumoth is weak to Stealth Rock and just about anything can break its Sub and all that, but conceptually speaking:
Looking at Aurumoth now and then looking back on this makes capefeather look like some sort of sorcerer or fortune teller, but that's beside the point. Substitute is the ultimate "'safe' option." It is safe for every Pokemon, universally and irrespective of perceived power. It also dramatically limits the opponents' options, which in turn removes that aspect of "what the user can afford to do given his/her opponent's options, and vice versa," and so we learn nothing except that Substitute is still a really good safe option. For Aurumoth specifically, Substitute would be a blanket response to defensive Pokemon that could status/wear it down and a blanket cushion against faster Pokemon that can, for the most part, all O-2HKO the thing, and many of whom Aurumoth can KO with its STABs from behind the safety of its Sub. You can say what you want about Speed-boosting moves, but they don't even compare to the simplicity and ease of Substitute's safety or its interference with the risk/reward duality. Substitute is rarely, if ever, the "wrong move choice," and will even more rarely put its user at a disadvantage. With the concept of "risk" so clearly burned into the frontal lobe of CAP's collective mind-think, Substitute should be flashing red alerts everywhere. Precedent be damned; this move is bad for the concept and bad for the Pokemon.

I'm on my iphone so i have to make this brief. I think it is relatively safe to say Auramoth will have only one free slot to distinguish its sets in any noteable way (two stabs+coverage move). This means that no set can run both a boosting move and a substitute or priority and a substitute or what have you. We also know that substitute, while incredibly useful, is by no means any sort of uber power move, as many pokemon, such as haxorus, volcarona, and salamence often forgo that option in favor of recovery or coverage. Furthermore, i beleive, in any experiment, you should have a control group to gauge any differences in your treatment groups. For those reasons, i say keep substitute on the set in order to gauge how effective the setup/support sets are compared to the safe option substitute provides.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

IRL issues so I'll make this quick

I've disallowed Shift Gear and should really have done the same to Baton Pass from the beginning

I've allowed WoW, TW, Glare and Stun Spore, as well as Cotton Guard

Please continue to discuss Quiver Dance, Dragon Dance, and possibly Substitute, particularly in relation to the other two moves.

EDIT: I also added Cosmic Power and Stockpile to the Allowed list.

EDIT2: Also disallowing Belly Drum because jesus people we are not wasting our time with stuff like that

 

[psykokitty]

One of the main arguments people are focusing on is that Aurumoth needs to boost its speed to be truly competitively viable. While this is true, it should be remembered that Aurumoth only really needs to raise its speed relative to its opponent's in order to gain the upper hand. As such, paralysis moves (or moves that lower the opponent's speed) will have the same general effect as boosting Aurumoth's speed directly, but carry with them a "strategy risk" in that your opponent may switch to something else and you'd have to start from square one in terms of speed; a risk that purely raising Aurumoth's speed would not entail.

For these reasons, I think we should allow Glare, Stun Spore, and Thunder Wave but disallow Shift Gear, Quiver Dance, and Dragon Dance. A further reason for disallowing QD is the SpDef boost that others have already given a shout-out to. Shift Gear... seems too much for me, as I fear it would essentially outclass any sort of reward that would come from Weak Armor. Finally, in all honesty, I wouldn't be upset if DD were allowed, I just think that finding more creative ways to help Aurumoth outrun its opponents (such as paralysis or getting that Weak Armor boost) would fit the concept better than a run-of-the-mill speed-boosting move.

As for the others... I think we should allow Will-o-Wisp. There's been discussion on how this could nerf potential counters such as Scizor, but didn't we say that we wanted a way to avoid having hard counters? I think that WoW will only help us succeed in that.

Finally, I think we should allow Cotton Guard. It may be gimmicky, but there is a high-reward, late-game strategy in trying to get more Weak Armor boosts after taking out your opponent's special attackers, not to mention the potential Stored Power sets that go along with this.

EDIT: Damn it ninja'd again by BMB. Why does this happen every time I actually have something constructive to say?

 

[jas61292]

The best (only remotely convincing) argument against Quiver Dance is that it also boosts CAP's SpD, which is its "weak spot," "as we've said all along." No, it's weak spot is not its 6 common weaknesses or its unbelievably limited list of resistances for how slow it is, nor is it the vast number of Pokemon that can threaten it out of battle instantly or its vulnerability to entry hazards. It's not even Moth's contrived offensive Abilities, difficulty setting up, or its direct competition from other Pokemon who don't have those first six non-weaknesses. It's actually the low Special Defense, which is not just another ton of risky bricks we've dropped on our CAP; instead it's the only thing keeping Aurumoth from skyrocketing through Ubers and into the stratosphere to hang out with Huge Power Arceus, Darth Vader, and Wargreymon.

To throw this back the other way, the best (and only "remotely convincing") argument for Quiver Dance is (what I consider the laughable claim) that we are currently an awful Pokemon with no reason to use if we can't boost speed. Its not like we have great mixed offensive power, naturally outspeed half of OU, and have more physical AND Special Bulk than some walls such as Gliscor. And of course, we obviously don't also have 3 fairly amazing abilities and ways to boost both power and speed individually. And, I mean, resisting arguably the two best offensive types in the game means nothing, right?

Seriously people. Look at what you are saying. Yes, we are not a better straight up mixed sweeper than Genesect. Yes, things can revenge kill us. If they couldn't we would be making an Uber. You see, Pokemon are OU for a reason. Cause they are good. Losing to an OU Pokemon doesn't mean you are bad. It means they are good. Throwing on random powerful moves just so that we can make up for other OU Pokemon being good is just looking at this in the completely wrong way.

Of all the ways to boost power that exist, none remove risk more than Quiver Dance. It against the concept in almost every way due to how we have already built this Pokemon. It takes all the risky parts of this CAP and patches them up with the only good excuse being that "we aren't good enough".

And to top it all off, as I already said, risky QD has been done before. WE WON'T LEARN ANYTHING FROM IT! Volcarona is this exactly but MORE risky and MORE rewarding. There is nothing to be gained by giving this except possibly making Aurumoth too powerful. Not saying that would happen, but no result that comes from it could be positive.

That being said, forestflamerunner made some very good points in the case of Dragon Dance. Physical attacking is right now far inferior to special attacking on paper. Giving it a superior option on this side will make things more even on both sides of the spectrum, which is something we want. Now, I am still hesitant as I am not a fan of the speed boost, but right now, I am leaning towards thinking we should allow Dragon Dance and not QD or Gear Shift.

EDIT: Come on bmb. You need to stop this whole "posting while I am writing my post" thing :p

Anyways, on the topic of Substitute, I am largely torn. In concept, as has been brought up by Korski, it is one of the safest moves in the game. However, without the right set to use it on, the "safety" it provides is largely useless and just ends up sacrificing your HP. As of right though I think it definitely depends on what other moves it gets. If for some reason it gets Quiver Dance, then there is no way in hell we should let it also have substitute. SubQD is incredibly safe a strategy that we should not be even considering allowing. And, while not as safe, I am tempted to say the same about SubDD. However, if we lack these moves, I see no real reason not to allow Substitute. Without the right moves it is not really a safe option at all. It can indeed be very risky. In my personal opinion, we should allow it, unless moves that make it safe are also allowed.

 

[Legend13]

I may have been a little harsh in my first post; of course Shift Gear got disallowed (thank you BMB!), and i'm still against Quiver Dance, but I'm going to give Dragon Dance a second chance. The problem is, Moth already has Calm Mind, and if Quiver dance is allowed, it will be completely outclassed by it (spd+2 & spa+2 < spa+2 & spd+2 & spe+2 obviously). Dragon Dance however, is middle ground between Agility and Swords Dance, which is actually just fine.
Allow Dragon Dance, but Disallow Quiver Dance.

EDIT: Substitute is a given for any pokemon, and if you want it, you have to sacrifice another move for it (forgot this in the OP).

 

[Verminator]

There've been some really great arguments in the thread so far, and as a result I think my stance on Dragon Dance is starting to soften. Seeing as how many scarfers still outspeed after +1, I suppose Weak Armor alone might not be enough, and grabbing a +2 speed boost after a WA boost + DD is the kind of big payoff that taking a big risk should reward. So, I'm starting to come around to this one, even though I'm still grateful that Shift Gear is no longer on the table.

However, I'm not as convinced about Quiver Dance. Again, I'm softening up a little to it, but not to the point where I'm entirely convinced. Patching up your special bulk while boosting your attacking power and speed kind of seems antithetical to the concept, especially seeing as Aurumoth's special bulk is the only weak point in its armour (nyuk.) In addition, the big boost you get to Stored Power from just that one move is really scary. I know Tail Glow is the same and additionally buffs your Sp. Atk to crazy levels, but with TG you stay slow and don't take hits any better than you did before. With QD, you outspeed more or less everything that isn't scarfed, and the Sp. Def boost makes it possibly even easier to grab a second boost and then go on a game-finishing rampage. While I agree that we need to make sure that Aurumoth is viable, I think that this might just prove to be overkill and that we should try and stay clear of it if we can help it.

As for Sub, well, I just plain don't see how it breaks the concept. As Forestflamehunter said, if you want to run sub then you either have to drop one of your STABs, your coverage move, or your boosting move, and I don't think that losing any of those is an attractive proposition. Lose your psychic attack, now Terrakion is likely to stomp you flat. Lose your Bug attack, now Tyranitar is probably going to make you his bitch. Lose your coverage move, now Heatran, Skarm, Scizor and Genesect turn you into their plaything. Lose your boosting move, and you just really aren't that threatening anymore. Sure, you downplay the risk by using sub, but thanks to the curse of 4MSS you're also diminishing your potential reward. I don't foresee any harm in allowing it simply because it just doesn't look like a great option to me.

 

[GRs Cousin]

EDIT2: Also disallowing Belly Drum because jesus people we are not wasting our time with stuff like that

Despite everyone else either favoring it or noting how it definitely isn't broken? Not even a justification of why it's disallowed to humor us? That's rather... Abrupt, for a lack of a better word.

And to top it all off, as I already said, risky QD has been done before. WE WON'T LEARN ANYTHING FROM IT! Volcarona is this exactly but MORE risky and MORE rewarding. There is nothing to be gained by giving this except possibly making Aurumoth too powerful. Not saying that would happen, but no result that comes from it could be positive.

Essentially all that needs to be said about Quiver Dance, not even taking into account the overcentralizing power of No Guard Blizzard/Thunder/Overheat/Quiver Dance sets would have. Seriously, let's not have Quiver Dance, please. We don't need a reverse Snorlax on every set of Aurumoth.

 

[Umbreons]

We should really disallow Quiver Dance. If we allow Quiver Dance then it will outclass Calm Mind. Not Gearonly that, but you will basically making this thing OP. It's not as OP as Shift Gear But it is still OP with the stats that this bug has.

On to Dragon Dance. Dragon Dance is a good move, but isn't OP like the above moves. No need to talk about this too much. But, It's a great idea.

Finally, there is Substitute. Substitute helps keep your pokemon alive longer, so if you run a sub-leftovers Buggy, this thing can stay alive longer. But, because of it's 120 Attack and 117 Special Attack, this thing will need swords dance or something like that if it becomes bulky. Cause it does have a good Defense stat. But, this set would cause you to ony run 2 moves, so IT IS A RISK.

 

[Aquaking]

Alright, so i have finally decided to stop lurking and post since i have a lot to say about the movepool. First off, I want to talk about Dragon Dance and Quiver Dance. Now, i've noticed some talk about making Aurumoth choose between speed and power. I think this is where our risk should come in, and that people are too scared of Dragon Dance or Quiver Dance along with Weak Armor.

While Weak Armor + Dragon Dance/Quiver Dance is a great combo and removes the choice between power, it has its own risk in the defense drop. 110/99 isn't amazing defensively, and Aurumoths' multitude of weaknesses just add on to that. Plus, i believe that its long list of weaknesses would solve any problems with the SpDef boost Quiver Dance gives.

I guess the real difference is that it could take some nonSTAB coverage options like HP Fire that some sweepers may carry, but anything that has STAB would still likely kill it. So, risk isn't something we really have to worry about in giving Aurumoth Dragon Dance or Quiver Dance.

Now, as DarkBlazeR has said, Aurumoth would likely use Agility and a Life Orb to cover the problem of Speed vs Power outside of Weak Armor, as DD/QC are not as good without the extra speed boost.

Overall, its offensive prowess is enough so that we really don't have to worry about it when Life Orb can give it a power boost.

There is no generic speed boosting item besides a Choice Scarf, and Aurumoth really doesn't have the amazing STAB coverage to just spam away with things like Megahorn or Psychic. Say what you want about it fixing speed, but think about situations where a Life Orb's ability to boost power AND still choose what move you use next make it more useful than a Choice Band/Specs.

Basically, if we give up Weak Armor, we give up anyway to boost our speed without dedicating our boosting move to speed.

Now all of this is not to say that we cannot use attack boosting moves, it's just that we will be basing the power vs speed choice on ability. Really, we will defining the Power option as sets with Weak Armor.

The way I see it, Weak Armor is the only way to get any boost to speed when we choose to run an offense boosting move, and frankly without it Aurumoth is horribly out sped.

One thing i've noticed people haven't mentioned is that while a +1 to speed won't get its counters that run Choice Scarf, what are the percentages of every common scarfer that will actually use a choice scarf? Are we really forgetting that there is such a thing as CB Salamence and Swords Dance Terrakion, and that they are not just there for surprise value but can actually pull off a decent sweep? Sure there will be things that outspeed Aurumoth, but choosing to forego the speed boost of the two dances for the extra power of Swords Dance/Tail Glow should bring the risk here.

The way I am looking at it is, scarfers won't really be a check but a situational counter, and I thought we had said that what we wanted was lots of counters but no solid checks?

All in all, I see no good reason to not Allow Quiver Dance and Dragon Dance. If you really don't like it, then vote for a movepool without them.

Anyway, moving on. I am not really sure about what we should do with Substitute. It's a generally safe option, but it have an extremely strong precedent since almost every Pokemon is existence has access to itm bar things like Magikarp and Unown.

I guess precedent is not something we really worry about, so i think its fine if we Do not allow Substitute.

Finally, i want to talk about Belly Drum.
I haven't seen any arguments that really speak to me and say, "wow, they have a really good point. We should disallow Belly Drum."

I know I sound a bit like a parrot here, repeating what everyone else has said about it, but it really is the quintessential risky move, so i am all for Allowing Belly Drum.

So, tl;dr: Yes for Quiver Dance, Dragon Dance and Belly Drum, No for Substitute.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

I have work to do but

Despite everyone else either favoring it or noting how it definitely isn't broken? Not even a justification of why it's disallowed to humor us? That's rather... Abrupt, for a lack of a better word.

a) pointless, distracting and idiotic if you don't have priority, and we're not wasting precious VGM slots on fantasy
b) if you do have priority?

+6 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 85.59 - 100.84%
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 86.57 - 102.12%
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 79.01 - 93.2%
+6 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) ExtremeSpeed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 68.51 - 80.46%

Yeah... no.

Essentially all that needs to be said about Quiver Dance, not even taking into account the overcentralizing power of No Guard Blizzard/Thunder/Overheat/Quiver Dance sets would have. Seriously, let's not have Quiver Dance, please. We don't need a reverse Snorlax on every set of Aurumoth.

a) Snorlax/Suicune are bad in OU
b) Do you honestly think No Guard QD/Overheat/Thunder/Blizzard would work

Not saying I disagree that QD should be disallowed though, or that we have little to learn from QD as opposed to its other options.

Will post with an actual opinion when I have time. Carry on until then.

 

[adhdtv]

I don't know If I'm allowed to bring this up now, but I'd like to bring up a really risky move. Growth. If Aurumoth is played in the sun, it gets an extra fire weakness, but with No Guard, it will always hit Thunder and Blizzard in the sun, and it is supposed to be a mixed sweeper, so giving Aurumoth Growth would boost both its sweeping capabilities except it still would not be fast, so that is an added risk. It might be outclassed by dragon dance and quiver dance, but I thought that I could bring it to the table for discussion

 

[forestflamerunner]

Right now, dragon / quicer dance and substitute should take precedent over most other moves since those three will dramatically alter how auramoth is played. I understand why bmb would want to push aside gimmicks like belly drum so as to ensure a focus discussion. However, i think belly drum could be useable in the same way auraboah could be viable, so i'd like to ask bmb to move belly drum to pending with stuff like trick and gravity and all the other gimmicks

 

[Verminator]

I don't know If I'm allowed to bring this up now, but I'd like to bring up a really risky move. Growth. If Aurumoth is played in the sun, it gets an extra fire weakness, but with No Guard, it will always hit Thunder and Blizzard in the sun, and it is supposed to be a mixed sweeper, so giving Aurumoth Growth would boost both its sweeping capabilities except it still would not be fast, so that is an added risk. It might be outclassed by dragon dance and quiver dance, but I thought that I could bring it to the table for discussion

I quite like this idea, it'd be great for mixed sets for sure. For what it's worth, this isn't totally out there as far as flavour's concerned either, as Illumise already learns this move. I think it should be allowed.

 

[Octaazacubane]

Allow Quiver Dance, Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, Tail Glow and (I guess) Substitute
Quiver Dance does increase Aurumoth's SpD, but it's still not walling much, especially with SR and damage incurred during the set-up turn. Frankly, it's not going to sweep much w/ either unboosted offense or speed. QD would hardly make physical Auru obsolete, with Megahorn, Extremespeed and Sucker Punch. DD is the same, minus the SpD.
Swords Dance and Tail Glow fit Auru's concept well, skyrocketing its offense, but leaving it prone to revenge-killing w/o a speed boost. If Auru does gets a weak armor boost, it'll be frightening w/ SD or TG (reward), but you risk being KOed before you can use the boost.
Substitute does seem to run against the risk/reward grain, but would hardly be game-breaking on Aurumoth, and would probably be dropped for coverage or a boosting move on most sets even if allowed. I have no strong opinion, though.

 

[CiteAndPrune]

My stance on QD and DD hasn't changed since last post (disallow QD but allow DD) and with SG off the table I don't have all that much to respond to, although...

About Substitute. I guess this could go either way, because even if it's allowed, the 4MSS will open up new weaknesses, and Aurumoth can always get phazed away after losing HP to make the sub (and any passive damage incurred on the way). Using up one turn to put up the sub, then another to set up, and not getting phazed immediately would be a miracle to happen. And what if you get Taunted? Encored? There's enough ways to deal with the sweeper set that I wonder if the 4-move attacker wouldn't be more viable for blowing holes in teams with super-effective coverage (although... hmmm).

With the brief mention of Baton Pass (and its immediate disallowing) I'd like to point out something else to people - that Aurumoth, particularly Illusion ones, makes for an awesome Baton Pass recipient. Pick up a reliable Baton Passer that can give a bulky sub, Agility, or preferably both, and click Baton Pass. Assuming you didn't get phazed/disrupted, then...

If Aurumoth and the Pokemon it's disguised as with Illusion have completely different checks (some physical Swords Dancer and its Tail Glow variant), then the opponent has to make a gamble choosing who to switch to and stop you. The mindgames potential is hilarious... and Baton Pass in and of itself isn't an easy strategy, although it's rewarding when it does work out.


Regarding Belly Drum... but I already said why it's bad. It's for the same reason Ghost Curse isn't used so much - the combined damage you take switching in + setting up + losing half max HP (+ hazards and passive damage) is just too much.

About Growth though... the Growth said would need 2 special moves and something physical (probably Extremespeed) to not be outclassed by 3 special moves including Psyshock for Chansey and Blissey. Probably a No Guard variant indeed, utilizing perfect accuracy Thunder+Blizzard in sunny weather. With their neutral coverage plus Extremespeed maaaaybe.... but I'm concerned that other options would simply prove superior after all.

Also glad to see Cosmic Power on the allowed list for the synergy with Stored Power. Now Aurumoth has two moves (Calm Mind and Cosmic Power) that can patch up its SDF stat (well, three counting Stockpile if you're a fan) but we all know how commonly you see defense-boosting Pokemon in the metagame, particularly when you have sweeper stats. And those that do bulky sets have some reliable recovery to work with... what will we have? Wish? But that's precisely the good part, they're not going to break Aurumoth but just fit right in with the rest of our arsenal... I hope so at least.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Volcarona has a much higher and better speed tier to use QD, as well as much higher defenses iirc. It would truly require 2 boosts to dismantle a team, while having a bit poorer coverage than volcarona. This makes it far riskier, and I'd like to see Quiver Dance on Aurumoth.

 

[Legend13]

If we are going to use Quiver Dance, we might as well get rid of Calm Mind, since the latter is completely outclassed. (yeah i know it's a short post, but some people seem to be forgetting this).

EDIT: point taken.

 

[DarkBlazeR]

If we are going to use Quiver Dance, we might as well get rid of Calm Mind, since the latter is completely outclassed. (yeah i know it's a short post, but some people seem to be forgetting this).

Psychic is superior to Psybeam on Alakazam. Volcarona learns both Quiver Dance and Calm Mind.
Your point being?

 

[Legend13]

Psychic is superior to Psybeam on Alakazam. Your point being?

Simply that it's a waste of space, and even then, Quiver Dance treads a fine line between being OP and being just fine. (this exchange is probably going to get deleted now)

 

[Cuiv]

If we are going to use Quiver Dance, we might as well get rid of Calm Mind, since the latter is completely outclassed. (yeah i know it's a short post, but some people seem to be forgetting this).

The thing is... I can't imagine ever even considering using Calm Mind on Aurumoth, whether it gets Quiver Dance or not. Aurumoth is not particularly bulky, has few resistances and a ton of weaknesses, and is slow. I don't care if Quiver Dance outclasses Calm Mind; Calm Mind is just plain bad on Aurumoth. (In fact, these days Calm Mind is bad in general in OU.)

 

[Pallas Athena]

Going through the three moves up for discussion now:

Quiver Dance: Quiver Dance does have a difference from Weak Armor, and is potentially almost necessary with it. Consider the fact that scarf Genesect will outspeed CaP4 after a +1 boost. This set is extremely common and metagame defining - not something you want to be weak to at all. Indeed, this could stop a Weak Armor or Quiver Dance sweep cold. In order to sweep past this common behemoth (and other faster scarfers), CaP4 would need to hit +2. As it almost certainly will not be setting up more than once given a Stealth Rock weakness and vulnerability to Spikes, few resistances, low special bulk, and no recovery the second boost will almost certainly have to come from Weak Armor.

In fact, I hold that either Quiver Dance or Dragon Dance would be necessary to make Weak Armor viable at all, when Scarf Terrak/Torn/Gene will still outspeed at +1. Additionally, the risk of taking a hit and then a turn of setting up makes up for the sweeping capabilities of CaP4. Remember, we need reward to go along with the risk.

I think people also overestimate how good this will be after a +1 boost, when many major threats of sand, rain, sun, and weatherless can still outspeed and KO after Stealth Rocks, and this assumes no damage on the setup. The fact is, Quiver Dance is a powerful boost, but the reward only starts to equal the risk.

Substitute: The concept specifically mentions substitute, and not every portion of the Pokemon has to be risky. If you go for substitute, then that's a risk because now a coverage move, a STAB move, or a setup move is lost. CaP4 would greatly appreciate all three. Substitute also means that CaP4 more or less cannot come back in.

tl;dr allow all three, I need to start using "aurumoth"