CAP 8 CAP 8 Stat Spread Submissions / Discussion

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

OK, I'll try this stat spread and see what happens

108HP/87Atk/75Def/95SAt/95SDf/95Spe

Base Stat Total: 555

108HP/95SDf

As you can see, this gives CAP8 a 'Very Good' score in Special Tankiness, which will well and truly encourage attackers to use physical attacks instead, in which it can utilize Static and/or Rough Skin to full effect.

95SAt/95Spe

True, this is supposed to be Somewhat Defensive, but it does need to be able to at least OHKO Gyarados. With 95SAt and Thunder Bolt, CAP8 is able to OHKO Gyarados that don't invest in SDf without even investing in SAt, while 95Spe + Choice Scarf = guarantee that CAP8 can outspeed Dos before it even gets the DD boost. True, this does leave it entirely suspectabile to Dugtrio, but I want him to be a check, so I don't find that a problem.

75Def

75Def is the absolute MAXIMUM defense I can give it with the amount of HP it has while still allowing Duggy to 2HKO it with EQ. As I said earlier, I want him to be a check, and all Pokes make better checks when they're able to at least 2HKO their enemies or wall them to death (since Dugtrio's a revenge killer, he has to suffice on the former). On the plus side, this does allow CAP8 (with 252HP and 252Def EVs) to survive a DDDos's Earthquake before putting it out of its misery via TBolt.

87Atk

I put the rest of the base stats into Atk, making this number 87. But let me assure you, 87Atk IS usable. Hell, Duggy makes do with only 80Atk and a less powerful STAB move (Earthquake only has 100BP), while this guy has Volt Tackle AND Outrage (both of which have 120BP).

Any comments are welcome, as long as they're constructive

EDIT: Fixed image so you can actually see base stats etc.

Still waiting on comments

 

[Fuzznip]

Well, I've been looking through these posts, and I noticed that Speed should be pretty high, and I actually think it should, because it would be nice to have a fast Dragon, but bulky at the same time.

107 HP / 75 Atk / 75 Def / 98 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe

ODB: -1.7 - No Bias
PSB: -27.5 - Bias to Special
BSR: 410 - Very good
Stat Total: 555

I reduced the health, but still made it have enough so it can use the 101 subs.

I also reduced Attack and Defense significantly, because this CAP generally doesn't need a lot of Attack, as most viable Electric-type attacks are special, aside from Volt Tackle. I reduced the Defense so it can lure in physical hits to utilize on contact abilities.

I wanted this to be faster, so I increased its speed to 100, which gives it a max. of 328, which is quite reasonable.

Any thoughts?

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Well, I've been looking through these posts, and I noticed that Speed should be pretty high, and I actually think it should, because it would be nice to have a fast Dragon, but bulky at the same time.

107 HP / 75 Atk / 75 Def / 98 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe

ODB: 1.7 - No Bias
PSB: 27.5 - Bias to Special
Overall Rating: 410 - Very good
BSR: 555

I reduced the health, but still made it have enough so it can use the 101 subs.

I also reduced Attack and Defense significantly, because this CAP generally doesn't need a lot of Attack, as most viable Electric-type attacks are special, aside from Volt Tackle. I reduced the Defense so it can lure in physical hits to utilize on contact abilities.

I wanted this to be faster, so I increased its speed to 100, which gives it a max. of 328, which is quite reasonable.

Any thoughts?

A bit too similar to mine actually, but other than that, not too bad

 

[Plus]

I don't think this should be fast at all. Think Paralysis here. I think 50-70 Speed is perfectly acceptable, whatever taken away from it can go to other stats.

I'm thinking paralysis here, and I still think Speed is important. The only way to paralyze the opponent is through moves or the ability Static. Now, Static isn't exactly the most reliable thing to depend on when going for paralysis. It's 30% Para rate works for only contact moves, and chances are that moves like Ice Beam will hit this pokemon the most. EQ doesn't even trigger Static.

In terms of paralyzing, you could paralyze more effectively with higher speed than lower speed. You strike first and paralyze the opponent. There is no benefit to going last for this even when you are trying to paralyze something.

If you mean that going first after the paralysis is beneficial, you could practically say that with any pokemon. With that reasoning, why not give salamence 140 attack and 50 speed? It could definitely rape under paralysis.

Speed as I've also mentioned can set up support fast such as screens if we ever do give this pokemon screens. Speed works for defense, and I don't think you are seeing that. Most people associate speed with power, but it can also mean crippling your opponent faster. Take Fidgit for example. Being fast is very beneficial and is usually maxed out when using it. Even speed there is important.

There is no downside to having high speed for CaP 8. 80/100/110 defenses are fine enough especially with a satk of 90 and good enough stab types.

 

[Korski]

I agree with Dragonites that speed is really not important on this CAP and actually should stay low. Every OU dragon is pretty fast. Even if you boost up its speed to the 100s, it's still going to end up being a worse Latias (who screens and supports and does all the stuff this pokemon will be doing with a higher stat total). And with dragon attacks being so high powered, a CAP dragon that outspeeds the other dragons will just end up being used as a dragon counter/sweeper. And don't say it won't. STAB dragon moves + speed = sweeper. ALWAYS. We need to rethink the dragon-type beyond whether it's going to use Outrage or Draco Meteor.

The electric/dragon typing makes it very tempting to go for high octane offense, I know, but remember, this pokemon is not supposed to clean up the field. It's most likely going to be an early-game supporter and dragon lure and/or a late-game tank, so it needs to focus on defenses and be able to outrun only its most direct counters and switch-ins (which I have outlined in my submission). Let Starmie or someone deal with the dragons and Fidgit.

 

[Spiny Norman]

First, thanks for the support Gooey Kablooie!

I just want to give a few reasons to justify my spread a little more (not all of which are going to be particularly novel to this or other threads):

-a slightly defensive pokemon is not necessarily meant to sweep off the bat; hence many of them (suicune, revenankh etc.) have either a stat-up move or a weather-abusing ability. A typical stat-up move for dragons (and dragon-likes) being Dragon Dance. Often this is seen on pokemon who lack the speed to sweep, but have the bulk to stat-up and the attack to abuse (Ttar, Gyarados, Feraligatr etc.). I would also argue Calm Mind or Nasty Plot are not dragon-electric moves, being used ONLY by Lati@s and Pikachu/Raichu & Plusle/Minun respectively.

-Going purely Physical is interesting! There are several abilities that would make physical moves really shine - iron fist, reckless, rock head. Ability-boosted moves like this coming off a decent attack that could be boosted by dragon dance would be something to reckon with. A lot of the art has been of pokemon that look as though they would punch/bite/rake the hell out of you rather than take you out with bad breath.

-The High HP of the spread & natural resists begs for Substitute to be used and abused. Combined with stat-ups (bellyCAP anyone?) and/or berrys and/or Focus Punch and/or status, not to mention avoiding burns/para...plenty of versatility, and more pros on the physical side.

 

[Veedrock]

107 HP / 75 Atk / 75 Def / 98 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe

ODB: 1.7 - No Bias

The range is 0 to -20. That was the entire point of the bias poll.

 

[Fuzznip]

The range is 0 to -20. That was the entire point of the bias poll.

Typo, it's meant to be -1.7, thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Plus]

I agree with Dragonites that speed is really not important on this CAP and actually should stay low.

Could you name a benefit of staying low that is infinitely superior to making it high?

Every OU dragon is pretty fast. Even if you boost up its speed to the 100s, it's still going to end up being a worse Latias (who screens and supports and does all the stuff this pokemon will be doing with a higher stat total).

I already said that the typing alone allows it to switch into things that Latias previously couldn't, namely Scizor. Also, saying that every OU dragon is fast doesn't warrant this CaP to be slow. Thing is, speed is a great stat. A worse Latias statistically, but the typing just makes up for this. Electric/Dragon is definitely better than Psychic/Dragon. The switchins that this thing can come in on are different than Latias, so don't compare the two simply on stat structure.

And with dragon attacks being so high powered, a CAP dragon that outspeeds the other dragons will just end up being used as a dragon counter/sweeper. And don't say it won't. STAB dragon moves + speed = sweeper. ALWAYS. We need to rethink the dragon-type beyond whether it's going to use Outrage or Draco Meteor.

Uh, no, a counter must switch in on pretty much everything a Dragon has to dish out, survive, and retaliate. Say you switch this in on a dd, or a dragon move. Well, you're screwed. That's not a counter. It's simply a check. Not a very reliable one either. It's not getting levitate, so the ground weak stays. The only common type that Dragons pack that it resists is just Fire.

The electric/dragon typing makes it very tempting to go for high octane offense, I know, but remember, this pokemon is not supposed to clean up the field.

Well obviously not, what do you think the purpose of this thread is? We already established the fact that this thing is going Slightly Defensive. We are already restricted from going high octane offense.

It's most likely going to be an early-game supporter and dragon lure and/or a late-game tank, so it needs to focus on defenses and be able to outrun only its most direct counters and switch-ins (which I have outlined in my submission). Let Starmie or someone deal with the dragons and Fidgit.

How exactly would it lure Dragons? The possibility of this thing packing a Dragon move or a status inducing move is high. I definitely wouldn't want to switch my dragon in on this. If anything, this thing will not be a Dragon counter. Fidgit doesn't deal with Dragons either. Bulky waters do. Starmie can only Ice Beam Dragons. Even then, you'd need to pack Life orb to 2HKO a standard Latias. Without it it is a 3HKO.

Even then, something in your response really contradicts yourself.

I agree with Dragonites that speed is really not important on this CAP and actually should stay low.

so it needs to focus on defenses and be able to outrun only its most direct counters and switch-ins (which I have outlined in my submission).

In this case, you have already proven how important it is to have speed. That is the importance of speed, and it seems that it's threats (not counters) also tend to have moderately high speed.

Fidgit, for example, can switch in on thunderbolt and encore it. I put 110 on my spread because of this. This way, it outruns 105 and can bypass this. Speed, no matter how low or high it is, is important. In this case, I believe that having a decently high speed is beneficial to this pokemon.

 

[polelover44]

Here's the first draft of my submission, to definitely be changed when I get feedback, and polls are completed.


100 HP/60 Atk/110 Def/90 SP.Atk/100 SP. Def/70 Speed

Physical Sweepiness: 80: Rank -2: Moderately Bad
Physical Tankiness: 157: Rank 4: Very Good
Special Sweepiness: 111: Rank 1: Above Average
Special Tankiness: 145: Rank 4: Very Good
O/D Bias: -19.1: Moderate Bias to Defense
P/S Bias: -13.8: Moderate Bias to Special
Rating: 345: Very Good
BST: 530


Reasoning:

HP: 100, aside from being a nice round number, gives the CAP a maximum HP of 404, which allows it to take a hit from Seismic toss without breaking its Sub.

Atk: Not entirely unusable, could be a CB Sweeper, but there has to be 1 stat that's bad.

Def: This makes it bulkier than Swampert, Jirachi, Celebi, everything that will combat it as a bulky... thing.

SP. Atk: Pretty good, not enough to give it an offensive bias, but good enough to actually dish something out.

SP. Def: Although it has awesome physical bulk, it still needs to be able to not get destroyed by something like Alakazam, Heatran, or Porygon-Z.

Spe: Yeah... not the greatest, but not terrible either. Can outspeed something like CBRhyperior that can OHKO through the defenses, but is outsped by most major threats, giving it a 'not-broken' status.



Damage Calcs:
Max Atk. Tyranitar's Earthquake vs. Max/Max CAP8: 252-296 (62%-73%)
SpecsTran's Earth Power vs. Max/Max CAP8: 174-204 (43%-50%)
CBMamo's Earthquake vs. Max/Max CAP8: 271-319 (67%-78%)
Max Atk. Deoxys-A's Extremespeed vs. Max/Max CAP8: 89-105 (22%-26%)
Max SP. Atk CAP8's Draco Meteor vs. Min/Min Salamence: 328-386 (109%-129%)
Max Atk +2 Scizor's Superpower vs. Max/Max CAP8: 214-252 (52%-62%)
Max Atk +2 Rhyperior's EQ vs. Max/Max CAP8: 377-444 (93%-110%)

More to come

come on, I'm wanting critiques...

 

[Coronis]

95/70/100/90/100/110
Psweep: 109
Ptank: 141
Ssweep: 140
Stank: 141
ODB:-0.3
PSB:-13.6
Overall rating:414 very good

Ok, well this is my spread for a very good rating, i will change it if need be.

110 speed outruns a lot of things, including fidgit which can screw it over as Plus mentioned.

The 90 Sp.atk is because i don't want this to have overpowering attack stats, with the large amount of high powered electric/dragon attacks. The 70 attack is because i don't think this thing should be able to physically sweep...at all.

Now onto the defenses. I wanted this to be bulky on both sides which is why it has 100/100 defenses, and the 95 HP is fairly high, but low enough to keep it in the very good section.

What do you think?

 

[Veedrock]

I actually think 110 is too fast. Latias has the "fast specially biased balanced dragon" thing going for her, and this is looking to be an inferior clone (typing, I know). I don't want this thing to be slow, but such a number is quite unnecessary. Kitsunoh's a scout and "only" has 110, something that's meant to be defensively inclined does not need that much speed. Gliscor sits at 95 and can tank like a champ, so I'd like if we could stay at or around that range (I would think 100 is the absolute highest reasonable).

On that note, if some of the overly fast submissions would dump some of that into Physical attack, that'd be cool.

Edit: Also, all these 70 speed submissions are not gonna fly with me.

 

[thegreat4]

100 HP/70 Atk/100 Def/100 SAtk/100 SDef/70 Spe

Physical Sweepiness: 90: Rank -1: Below Average
Physical Tankiness: 145: Rank 4: Very Good
Special Sweepiness: 122: Rank 2: Moderately Good
Special Tankiness: 145: Rank 4: Very Good
O/D Balance: -9.6: Slight Bias to Defense
P/S Balance: -16.5: Moderate Bias to Special
BSR: 353: Very Good
BST: 540

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

OK, I'll try this stat spread and see what happens

108HP/87Atk/75Def/95SAt/95SDf/95Spe

Base Stat Total: 555

108HP/95SDf

As you can see, this gives CAP8 a 'Very Good' score in Special Tankiness, which will well and truly encourage attackers to use physical attacks instead, in which it can utilize Static and/or Rough Skin to full effect.

95SAt/95Spe

True, this is supposed to be Somewhat Defensive, but it does need to be able to at least OHKO Gyarados. With 95SAt and Thunder Bolt, CAP8 is able to OHKO Gyarados that don't invest in SDf without even investing in SAt, while 95Spe + Choice Scarf = guarantee that CAP8 can outspeed Dos before it even gets the DD boost. True, this does leave it entirely suspectabile to Dugtrio, but I want him to be a check, so I don't find that a problem.

75Def

75Def is the absolute MAXIMUM defense I can give it with the amount of HP it has while still allowing Duggy to 2HKO it with EQ. As I said earlier, I want him to be a check, and all Pokes make better checks when they're able to at least 2HKO their enemies or wall them to death (since Dugtrio's a revenge killer, he has to suffice on the former). On the plus side, this does allow CAP8 (with 252HP and 252Def EVs) to survive a DDDos's Earthquake before putting it out of its misery via TBolt.

87Atk

I put the rest of the base stats into Atk, making this number 87. But let me assure you, 87Atk IS usable. Hell, Duggy makes do with only 80Atk and a less powerful STAB move (Earthquake only has 100BP), while this guy has Volt Tackle AND Outrage (both of which have 120BP).

Any comments are welcome, as long as they're constructive

EDIT: Fixed image so you can actually see base stats etc.

Still waiting for comments... again

 

[Deck Knight]

You know what... I really appreciate tennis' help but I have to go with my gut. The Quite Good spread just doesn't do what I think it needs to do. I've gone back to the drawing board. If tennis wants it as his submission he can feel free to take it.

This might be an unpopular direction to take, but I'll do it anyway. I'm undecided on the Very Good Model, but the Calcs didn't impress me for Quite Good. It's locked in the limbo of not having the raw bulk or SA to do either, and quite frankly neither of my spreads used speed so in reality Tyranitar and Scizor were still beating it to the punch, no matter what the numbers say.

New [Quite Good] Model:

107/60/112/110/71/55 BST: 515

PSweep: 74, Rank -3: Very Bad
PTank: 166, Rank 5: Extremely Good
PSweep: 117, Rank 1: Above Average
PTank: 114, Rank 1: Above Average
ODB: -19.2, Moderate Bias to Defense.
PSB: -4.7 No Bias (Towards Special)
BSR: 298, Quite Good.

Features:

107 Base HP: The same logic as before, easily enables 101HP Subs, and leaves you with min 355 and max 418 for economical Leftovers numbers.

Low Attack: To be honest physical attacks just don't have the BP behind them to make 70 worthwhile. If you're behind a 101HP Sub Blissey can't do jack to you anyway, especially since they've almost all dropped Ice Beam for Flamethrower. 60 Seems to work for SubGar so why not.

Impressive Bulk: Defense is nearly as good as Hippowdon, and lets you capitalize on on it.

Threatening SA: 110 is a solid score capable of good destructive power.

Speed, the paralysis factor: 55 Base Speed will outspeed basically any paralyzed pokemon, Scarfed or no. If you want to beat Swampert a scant 44 EVs is required.

Light Screen plox: All Electrics learn Light Screen, and a fair few Dragons do. This still has substantial SDef and after Light Screen most special attackers will shy away.

I will post new calcs then reassess. Any Special Defensive Calcs remain the same.

Offensive Calculations:

Defensive Spread: (252 HP/252 Defense/4 SA, Modest)

Special: 283 SAttack vs x SDef & x HP

Draco Meteor:

Naughty/Naive Standard Salamence: 146-172%
Timid Defensive CM Latias: 85-101%
Scarf Flygon: 144-170%

Dragon Pulse:

Naughty/Naive Standard Salamence: 93-110%
Timid Defensive CM Latias: 55-65%
Scarf Flygon: 93-110%

Thunderbolt:
Standard Gyarados: 148-174%
Spinner Starmie: 95-112%
SubPetaya Empoleon: 76-91%
Support Tentacruel: 46-56%
SDefensive Haxkiss:43-51%
Scarf Togekiss: 58-69%
Impish Defensive Arghonaut: 59-70%
Adamant SDefensive Argonaut: 46-55%

Defensive Calculations:

Defensive Spread: (252 HP/252 Defense/4 SA, Modest)

Adamant CB Scizor:
Bullet Punch: 14-17%
U-turn: 33-39%
Superpower: 37-45%
Pursuit: 18-22% (25-29% when fleeing)

Adamant CBTar:
Crunch: 38-45%
Stone Edge: 48-56%
Earthquake: 64-76%
Superpower: 38-45%
Aqua Tail: 14-16%

Adamant Scarf Jirachi:
Iron Head 10-12%
Zen Headbutt: 21-25%
U-turn: 12-14%
Ice Punch: 26-31%

Adamant Agiligross (Leftovers):
Meteor Mash: 16-19%
Zen Headbutt: 26-30%
Earthquake: 43-51%
Ice Punch: 32-38%
Thunderpunch: 4-5%

Adamant LO Gyarados:
Waterfall: 15-18%
Earthquake: 53-62%
Stone Edge: 26-31%
Ice Fang: 34-40%
Bounce: 16-19%

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

Personally, I'd take ten points from Physical Attack, and add it to your Speed, making it 100 HP/70 Atk/105 Def/80 Spa/109 SpD/95 Speed=559

Ok, I ran that through the BSR, and it still has a rating of "Very Good". Since most people are voting Mixed Special, this BSR actually adheres to that.

 

[1059860]

Stats:
100 HP / 50 Atk / 129 Def / 101 SpA / 90 SpD / 75 Spe
BST: 545 (same as that of Togekiss)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Breakdown & Features:

100 Base HP: It is at a minimum of 341 and max of 404, assuming 31 IVs. Basically, at max, this Pokemon is able to set up 101-Subs, unable to be broken by 1 Seismic Toss or Night Shade. It is very standard, and paired up with its defensive abilities, this Pokemon fairs very well.

50 Attack: It's identical to that of Togekiss, which means it's not meant to be used, but in certain circumstances, it can still be used very effectively. It is still useable for moves like Outrage or Focus Punch (for Sub-Punch, along with its 101-Subs) to take out some threats such as Blissey if needed to. Its purpose is similar to Gengar's Attack: Useable but advised against.

129 Defense: This allow it to be an efficient physical wall, easily able to switch in most physical attacks, especially these omnipresent Bullet Punches from Scizor and Metagross (still have to watch out for Earthquake from Metagross), and several others, especially those moves of the types that this Pokemon resists. Tagged along with good HP, it is very useful. Albeit not being a Steel type, it has better walling ability than Swampert, and yet not overpowered (surpassed by some OUs such as Cresselia or Rhyperior).

101 Sp.Attack: Offensively, it's obviously better than its Attack, and it's the more advised choice of the two. It's not extremely high, but high enough to make Draco Meteor, Thunderbolt and some other moves a good threat. If used as a bulky Specser, then it can be quite dangerous.

90 Sp.Defense: It's not overpowered, or else it will be very hard to take down due to the already awesome Defense. It has very nice resistances (Few examples: Fire, Electric (4x), Grass, Water, etc.) and can switch in with only a small chuck of HP taken off if correctly EVed. This Pokemon can also be a Milotic in some way, only with higher Defense than Special Defense, so it can be EVed in Special Defense if one want to use this Pokemon as a general wall. If, by any chance at all, Calm Mind is given, it can also be very useful to boost this stat while rising the 101 Base Sp.Attack to a larger, more threatening concern.

75 Base Speed: It is mediocre to prevent this Pokemon from mass-sweeping, since it has been suggested to be a somewhat defensive Pokemon, however, it does have enough speed, so if by any chance, someone decides to put quite a chuck of EVs into it, it can outrun a Metagross and kill it if the Metagross isn't very healthy (since Bullet Punch would do little damage, it would have to Earthquake). Other than that, it's a happy medium, for not being overly powerful sweep-wise, while not dreadful as it can be used. For variation, it may even be scarfed; since there are many different ways to use a lot of Pokemon, this one should yield some very nice surprises as well.

Now, let's see some calculations of damage:

Offensively:
*Offensive ElecDragon: Quiet: 252 HP, 252 SpA, 4 Def @ Leftovers

Draco Meteor
- Standard Salamence (Naughty): 100% (Guarenteed OHKO)
- Calm Mind Latias (Defensive): 100% (Guarenteed OHKO before Calm Mind)
- Flygon (Band or Scarf): 100% (Guarenteed OHKO)

Dragon Pulse
- Standard Salamence (Naughty): 100% (Guarenteed OHKO)
- Calm Mind Latias (Defensive): 64% - 76% (Guarenteed 2HKO unless Latias heals)
- Flygon (Band or Scarf): 100% (OHKO)

Thunderbolt
- Gyarados (Standard Set): 100% (Guarenteed OHKO)
- Tentacruel (Standard Set): 54% - 64% (Guarenteed 2HKO with SR, high chance of 2HKO even without SR, due to Black Sludge)
- Togekiss (252 HP/252 SpD): 50% - 59% (Guarenteed 2HKO with SR)
- Starmie (all listed sets): 100% (Guarenteed OHKO)
- Empoleon (Sub+Petaya): 90% - 106%
- Arghonaut (252 HP/224 SpD Adamant): 55% - 65% (Guarenteed 2HKO with SR; very high chance of 2HKO without SR due to Leftovers)

Defensively:
* Physically Defensive ElecDragon: Quiet: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA @ Leftovers
Adamant LO Scizor (252 Atk EV):
- Bullet Punch: 11.39% - 13.61%
- X-Scissor: 30.45% - 35.89%
- Superpower: 30.45% - 35.89%

Adamant Leftovers Metagross (252 Atk EV):
- Bullet Punch: 5.94% - 7.18%
- Earthquake: 40.10% - 47.52%
- Meteor Mash: 14.85% - 17.82%

Adamant LO Gyarados (252 Atk EV):
- Earthquake: 49.5% - 58.42%
- Waterfall: 14.6% - 17.33%
- Ice Fang: 32.67% - 38.61%

That's just a few for now. If mine gets chosen, then I may do more later. :naughty:

 

[Veedrock]

Suggestion: do calcs against common threats that are neutral. It's nice that the attacks really hurt, but they're super effective, of course they do a lot! You're really not selling the attack stat by putting emphasis on hitting what is weak to it and supposed to hurt.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Honestly, it would be better to get a higher attack on this pokemon so that mixed is an option. And frankly, I'd also like to see somewhere between 95 and over 100 speed.

 

[1059860]

Honestly, it would be better to get a higher attack on this pokemon so that mixed is an option. And frankly, I'd also like to see somewhere between 95 and over 100 speed.

This Pokemon has been voted to be more defensively and more towards specially biased. It almost impossible to satisfy those 2 requirements with 95 to 100+ speed and high Attack...

 

[Darkflagrance]

Key is not "high" attack in the absolute sense, but "higher" attack, as in relation to special attack. The difference is between 50 attack and 80 attack, the latter of which I tend to favor. Other part is frankly, speed is sometimes as integral to defense as it is to offense; we are running some false dichotomies here if we don't acknowledge that.

 

[The_Bassoonist]

Some continued and further extended Calcs for my suggested spread:

First, the spread again:

HP 105 (351-414)

Att 80 (Neutral 196-259) (+nature 221-284)

Def 105 (Neutral 246-309) (+nature 276-339)

SP.Att 85 (Neutral 206-269) (+nature 232-295)

SP.Def 105 (Neutral 246-309) (+nature 276-339)

Spd 75 (Neutral 186-249) (+nature 210-273)

BST: 555

Physical Sweepiness: 105. Rank 0. Average
Physical Tankiness: 156. Rank 4. Very Good
Special Sweepiness: 110. Rank 1. Above Average
Special Tankiness: 156. Rank 4. Very Good
Offence/Defence Balance: -18.9. Moderate Bias to Defence
Physical/Special Bias: -2.9. No Bias (slight bias to Special)

Overall Rating: 419. Very Good

Speed tier
Neutral 0EVs (186 speed) outruns:
Rhyperior (neutral nature, max speed)
Breloom, Skarmory, Metagross (neutral nature, no speed)
Scizor, Vaporeon, Umbreon (neutral nature, no speed)
Tyranitar (neutral nature, no speed)
Magnezone, Porygon2, Swampert, Weezing (neutral nature, no speed)
Rampardos (neutral nature, no speed)
Blissey (neutral nature, no speed)
Magnezone, Swampert, Weezing (-nature, no speed)
Donphan, Regis, Tangrowth (neutral nature, no speed)
Dusknoir, Marowak (neutral nature, no speed)
Rhyperior (neutral nature, no speed)
Spiritomb (neutral nature, no speed)
Bronzong (neutral nature, no speed)
Snorlax (neutral nature, no speed)
Outruns Jolly Tyranitar with 232 EVs
Outruns Adamant Scizor with 172 EVs
Outruns Adamant Tyranitar with 140 EVs
+1 reaches 279
+2 reaches 372

+nature 0EVs (210 speed) also outruns:
Marowak (+nature, max speed)
Heracross, Suicune (neutral nature, no speed)
Gyarados, Milotic (neutral nature, no speed)
Dragonite, Mamoswine (neutral nature, no speed) Rhyperior (+nature, max speed)
Heatran (neutral nature, no speed)
Marowak (neutral nature, max speed)
Outruns Jolly Tyranitar with 132 EVs
Outruns Adamant Scizor with 76 EVs
Outruns Adamant Tyranitar with 44 EVs
+1 reaches 315
+2 reaches 420

Defensive Calcs:

MaxHP/MaxDef +nature

Adamant LO Gyarados
EQ 50.72%-59.90%
Ice Fang 32.85%-39.13%
Outrage 60.87%-71.98%
Waterfall 15.22%-18.12%
Bounce 16.18%-19.08%

Adamant CB Metagross
Meteor Mash 23.19%-27.54%
EQ 62.32%-73.43%
Pursuit 12.56%-14.98%
Zen Headbutt 37.20%-44.20%
Bullet Punch 9.42%-11.11%

Adamant CB Weavile
Ice Punch 64.25%-75.85%
Night Slash 29.95%-35.51%
Pursuit 17.39%-20.53%
Brick Break 21.50%-25.36%
X-Scissor 22.95%-27.05%
Ice Shard 34.78%-41.06%

Adamant LO Salamence
Outrage 97.10%-114.49%
Dragon Claw 65.22%-76.81%
EQ 54.11%-63.77%
Brick Break 41.06-48.31%

MaxHp/maxSp.def +nature

Modest Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z
Ice beam 58.94%-69.57%
Tri Attack 49.76%-58.94%
HP-Ground 43.48%.51.69%
Dark Pulse 24.88%-29.47%
Hyper Beam 92.75%-109.66%

Modest Specs Heatran
Earth Power 54.59%-64.25%
Dragon Pulse 54.59%-64.25%
Fire Blast 27.05%-31.88%
HP Ground/Ice 42.51%-50.24%
Overheat 31.64%-37.44%

Modest Specs Salamence
Draco Meteor 113.04%-133.33%
Dragon Pulse 65.22%-76.81%
Hydro Pump 16.18%-19.08%
Flamethrower 12.80%-14.98%

Modest Specs Stratagem
Paleo Wave 34.30%-40.48%
Earth Power 51.69%-60.87%
Ancientpower+Technician 38.36%-45.65%
Ice Beam 54.59%-64.25%
Giga Drain+Technician 12.80%-15.22%

Offensive calcs

MinAtt neutral nature Dragon Claw vs
4Hp/MinDef
Tyranitar 19.59%-23.10%
Salamence before Intimidate 52.41%-62.05%
Salamence after Intimidate 34.94%-41.57%
Mamoswine 24.03%-28.45%
Dragonite 46.91%-55.56%
Stratagem 31.68%-37.58%

MinAtt neutral nature Thunderpunch vs
4Hp/MinDef
Gyarados before Intimidate 98.80%-116.87%
Gyarados after Intimidate 66.27%-79.52%
Starmie 58.02%-69.47%
Togekiss 44.87%-53.85%
Heatran 19.75%-23.46%
Kitsunoh 25.17%-30.13%

MinSp.Att neutral nature Dragon pulse vs
4Hp/MinSp.Def
Salamence 61.45%-72.89%
Mamoswine 35.08%-41.71%
Kingdra 60.27%-71.92%

MinSp.Att neutral nature Thunderbolt vs
4Hp/MinSp.Def
Gyarados 101.20%-120.48%
Azelf 39.04%-46.23%
Infernape 38.10%-45.24%
Kitsunoh 33.77%-40.07%
Tyranitar 16.67%-19.59%

MaxAtt +nature CB Dragon Claw vs

4hp/minDef Tyranitar 42.11%-49.42%
4hp/minDef Salamence before Intimidate 112.65%-133.73%
MaxHp/Def Bold Blissey 39.50%-46.64%
MaxHp/168def Impish Hippowdon 25.24%-30.00%

MaxAtt +nature CB Thunderpunch vs

4Hp/minDef Kitsunoh 55.63%-65.66%
4hp/minDef Aerodactyl 137.09%-161.59%
MaxHp/minDef Scizor 42.15%-50.00%
MaxHp/MaxDef Bold Suicune 47.52%-56.44%

MaxSp.Att +nature specs Dragon Pulse vs
4hp/minSp.Def Salamence 131.93%-155.42%
MaxHp/minSp.Def Rhyperior 67.28%-79.49%
4hp/minSp.Def Mamoswine 75.69%-89.50%

MaxSp.Att +nature specs Thunderbolt vs
4Hp/minSp.def Tyranitar 37.13-44.15
MaxHp/minSp.def Skarmory 153.29%-181.44%
MaxHp/MinSp.def Metagross 57.69%-67.86%
MaxHp/minSp.def Scizor 66.57%-78.78%
MaxHp/minSp.def Suicune 83.66%-99.50%


If you want me to cover anything else in the calcs, just let me know, but that'll be it for now.

 

[dialga_438]

100 HP/70 ATT/100 DEF/90 SpA/100 SpD/95 Spd

ODB= -5.9
PSB= -13.0
OR= 398 (VERY GOOD)
BST= 555

100 HP- Bulkyness is aided by this good HP, which caps out at 404.

70 ATT- If you want to use this, you better use CB.

100 DEF- Great defensive capabilities.

90 SpA- Great to make use of the amazing STABs.

100 SpD- Helps it take hits from the special side.

95 Spd- Makes it fast enough to make use of those great stats.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

90 / 80 / 105 / 105 / 80 / 85

Physical Sweepiness: 110 (Above Average)
Physical Tankiness: 142 (Good)
Special Sweepiness: 141 (Good)
Special Tankiness: 113 (Above Average)
Offense/Defense bias: -0.5 (No bias)
Phyiscal/Special bias: -1.3 (No bias)
Overall Rating: 349 (Very Good)

Home internet is still down at the moment so I don't have much time to do damage calculations. Generally speaking I made me spread on gut instincts and from various comments made by certain people.

Yeah, a lot of these are way too slow for my liking. I know it's all personal business but yeah, I don't dig slow 'mons. 80 is the bare minimum I can stand, assuming it has Dragon Dance.......

.....I actually think 110 is too fast. Latias has the "fast specially biased balanced dragon" thing going for her, and this is looking to be an inferior clone (typing, I know). I don't want this thing to be slow, but such a number is quite unnecessary. Kitsunoh's a scout and "only" has 110, something that's meant to be defensively inclined does not need that much speed. Gliscor sits at 95 and can tank like a champ, so I'd like if we could stay at or around that range (I would think 100 is the absolute highest reasonable). On that note, if some of the overly fast submissions would dump some of that into Physical attack, that'd be cool.

Honestly, it would be better to get a higher attack on this Pokemon so that mixed is an option. And frankly, I'd also like to see somewhere between 95 and over 100 speed.

I'm slightly disappointed that I couldn't get 95 speed on my spread, but as of now I can't find a spread that's to my liking that had 95 in speed. Probably try later when I have the time.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

Gothic Togekiss, even though I usually don't like the mid-ground approach everyone is taking on making their stats, your build so far is actually very appealing. Personally, I would like to see more HP investment, and I'm even up for some sacrifice of speed to get that...but god knows, there are a ton of people who are going to want to disagree with me on that, haha, probably you included.