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Chandelure

It's the same idea as Latias, except with Shadow Tag.

You bring in a Pokemon. They bring in Shandera (as a revenge kill or on a boosting move), it dies, you get to Pursuit it. With Latias, you at least got to pick who died so that ScarfTar could take it out, but here you don't get to choose.

And Latias didn't have any immunities (although it had better defensive typing overall, Psychic is worse than Ghost typing-wise), or 145 base Special Attack, or the big killer, Shadow Tag.
 
Here's the funny thing about Shandera: if you lure Ttar in early with something else, or if it's the lead, you can trap it and KO it WITH Shandera. Afterward, you're free to trap and kill at your leisure. That's pretty fuckin' ironic.
 
Well, that varies depending on your movepool and the Tyranitar in question. Specially defensive variants will laugh and kill you anyway, but more offensive ones might be KOed by HP [Fighting] (not that I'd use HP [Fighting], I wanna revenge kill Dragons). I think someone calced it and showed you'd cripple Tyranitar regardless, so...
 
The only time I'd ever worried about it being specially defensive is if I see it using Curse. Otherwise, I'll safely bring in my Specs Shandera on the revenge or something and OHKO with HP Fighting. If it's taken some prior damage, I really don't have to care which variant it is; Shandera will trap and kill it. Just the fact that it can feasibly trap and kill its own counter puts it on an entirely different level.

Also, revenge killing Dragons is a pretty big part of why I keep Weavile on a lot of my teams. :P
 
The only time I'd ever worried about it being specially defensive is if I see it using Curse. Otherwise, I'll safely bring in my Specs Shandera on the revenge or something and OHKO with HP Fighting. If it's taken some prior damage, I really don't have to care which variant it is; Shandera will trap and kill it. Just the fact that it can feasibly trap and kill its own counter puts it on an entirely different level.

Then you must be facing really bad players, sir. There's a lot of stuff that can't be ohko'd in the current 'metagame', defensive or not. Actually, there isn't a single dragon that dies in one hit, while they can all set up or just ko back. A remotely decent player will always use a curser with a lot of special defense, and if it's already cursed even once, will kill you back (snorlax, swampert, t-tar, even quagsire for god's sake. Abagoora will lol at you with stab, se, life orb +1 aqua jet).

Edit: T-Tar doesnt die to HP fighting even after stealth rock, and nails back with Stone Edge, EQ, Crunch, or Pursuit.

Honestly, I'm extremely surprised seeing people still have trouble with Shandera.

Edit 2: I take it you haven't been playing too much, since weather teams are extremely common (namely sand and rain, to a bit lesser extent). All 4 weathers stop cold Shandera. In the sand, T-Tar, Garchomp, Doryuuzu, Randorosu, Blissey, you name it- none of them minds Scarf Shandera too much. Rain teams will just oustpeed and OHKO, not much to argue here. Sun is a mixed bag: Boosted STAB hurt more than Kingdra's Waterfall, but a lot of stuff will outrun, damage, status, or ohko (Blaziken's Stone Edge, Venusaur's EQ or sleep powder, Urugamoth walls you to no end, etc). Finally, hail stall. Raw special power won't get past Walrein or Regice. Regice will eventually outstall, and Shandera just cannot touch Walrein. Mamoswine can carry a scarf, resist with thick fat and ohko back, or just dodge the fire move with snow cloak.
 
A remotely decent player will always use a curser with a lot of special defense
I really shouldn't dignify this with a response, but since I'm a fool, I'm just going to call you out on this right now. The premier "Curser" on most teams is Bulk Up Roopushin and Overheat is a near-OHKO on even his most specially bulky set.

Other than that, I have never heard anything as ridiculous as "every team needs a Curser with a lot of special defense". Watching and playing some of the top players as well as the occasional tournament should be enough to tell you that's nowhere close to true. Honestly, where do you get these ideas?

T-Tar doesnt die to HP fighting even after stealth rock, and nails back with Stone Edge, EQ, Crunch, or Pursuit.
Did you forget the part where I said Specs? Assuming Timid nature, 97.1% - 114.6% on 4 HP , 86% - 101.6% on CB, and 82.2% - 97% on 252 HP, which is about the max amount of bulk I'm willing to assume for the average Tyranitar. Most Tyranitar variants are entirely offensive, supplemented with a bit of bulk to keep it alive for beating other weather supporters

There's a lot of stuff that can't be ohko'd in the current 'metagame', defensive or not.
My post had nothing at all to do with the metagame; I was referring solely to Tyranitar. Even good players can have their shit ruined by Shandera every so often because it's very powerful, has usable speed, and putting Shed Shell on everything is ridiculous and no one is going to do it. You can play around Shandera, I know, I've done it before, but you cannot completely avoid it or downplay it. Its capabilities speak for themselves, even if you don't acknowledge it (which is quite ignorant, considering it's a top-level threat and the single most used Pokemon on PO's main metagame).
 
I really shouldn't dignify this with a response, but since I'm a fool, I'm just going to call you out on this right now. The premier "Curser" on most teams is Bulk Up Roopushin and Overheat is a near-OHKO on even his most specially bulky set.

Other than that, I have never heard anything as ridiculous as "every team needs a Curser with a lot of special defense". Watching and playing some of the top players as well as the occasional tournament should be enough to tell you that's nowhere close to true. Honestly, where do you get these ideas?
These "ideas" are directly for smogon's Gen IV Strategydex. Some may be outdated, but nevertheless prove my point about how cursers must be specially bulky.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/bastiodon
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gastrodon
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/bibarel
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/cradily
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/lapras
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/miltank
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/regirock
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/snorlax

The last articles actually run 252/252 Careful. That's where these ideas come from.
Edit: I said, cursers NEED special defense, not "every team needs a curser". I acknowledge my ambiguity.

Did you forget the part where I said Specs? Assuming Timid nature, 97.1% - 114.6% on 4 HP , 86% - 101.6% on CB, and 82.2% - 97% on 252 HP, which is about the max amount of bulk I'm willing to assume for the average Tyranitar. Most Tyranitar variants are entirely offensive, supplemented with a bit of bulk.
Tell me again how is Specs shandera remotely threatening. It's like Choice Band Rampardos: Brutal offensive, mediocre speed and mediocre defenses (70/90/90 isn't too bulky, especially with all those weaknesses).



My post had nothing at all to do with the metagame; I was referring solely to Tyranitar. Even good players can have their shit ruined by Shandera every so often because it's very powerful, has usable speed, and putting Shed Shell on everything is ridiculous and no one is going to do it. You can play around Shandera, I know, I've done it before, but you cannot completely avoid it, omit it, or downplay it. Its capabilities speak for themselves, even if you don't acknowledge it (which is quite ignorant, considering it's a top-level threat and the single most used Pokemon on PO's DW tier).

Everyone using shandera = overhype. Right, he's an amazing pokemon, I won't deny that. Top tier ou, if I say so myself. However, Shandera can't keep up with hyper offensive, as most stuff can take at least a hit and ohko, or outrun right off the bat. Shandera's good to revenge slow, weakened stuff, skarmory, or nutela nattorei. It's a reverse Dugtrio at best. Sure, may not have a counter thanks to Shadow Tag, but has way too much checks to name.
 
These "ideas" are directly for smogon's Gen IV Strategydex. Some may be outdated, but nevertheless prove my point about how cursers must be specially bulky.
Cursers needing Special Defense is a given, which is precisely why I pointed out that Tyranitar would only run that much bulk if it were using a Curse set.

I more or less interpreted your argument as "every team needs a Curser, and that Curser should have a lot of special defense", not "Cursers need a lot of special defense". My apoligies for the miscommunication.

Tell me again how is Specs shandera remotely threatening. It's like Choice Band Rampardos: Brutal offensive, mediocre speed and mediocre defenses (70/90/90 isn't too bulky, especially with all those weaknesses).
With better Speed, immunities, more bulk, and Shadow Tag. If Rampardos had all that, he'd probably generate just as much controversy.

Specs Shandera is a tactical nuke. You trade your ability to check faster sweepers for the ability to take out slower, bulkier offensive Pokemon more reliably. To be specific, it's one of the best offensive utilities for killing weather starters early on, rivaled only by Gochiruzeru. I posted calcs in another thread showing just how much damage they cause to every auto-weather Pokemon in the standard meta, and if you have them at around 70%, you can send in either one and take them off the map.

Really, the difference between Specs and Scarf Shandera is entirely preferential and should be tailored for what you want it to check. Both sets are equally viable.
 
Before replying, I'll go try Specs Shandera in the next 10+ battles. I'm skeptical about its viability with such a low speed, but it may prove me wrong.

Edit: my own results so far for specs Shandera

First Battle: Shandera was a bit of a deadweight since most pokes could outrun anyway (Sazandora, Borutorusu, Uruga, and Kerudio).
Second Battle: Nice. Sent in Shandera as fodder but ended up OHKOing a latios that attempted to Recover. Not sure didn't he Draco Meteor, though.
Third Battle: Took out the the Hippo, but Im not sure that was too useful in this specific match.
 
Shandera is fuckin annoying. Every time I switch in Shubarugo and use Megahorn, it just waltzes in and destroys it with Fire Blast. Cant even switch it out... destroys the concept of counters.
 
Honestly, I'm extremely surprised seeing people still have trouble with Shandera.

Don't talk such nonsense. I can't remember the last time Shandera didn't kill at least one of my Pokemon, nor the last time my Shandera didn't kill at least one opposing Pokemon. Emphasis on the 'at least' here btw. How do you expect somebody not to have troubles with this thing? You can't counter it - a smart opponent will often leave you in a situation where you only have one choice and that's to lose your Pokemon.
 
Dragonite (Anti Lead) / Shandera (Balloon Nitro charge) / Empoleon (Tank) / Smuglord (Special Sweeper) / Garchomp (scarf) / Roobushin (bulk up).

My actual team for example. My Jaroda is pretty much the only pokemon that has issues with Shandera. Even if it swtiches in (not after a ko), either Leaf Storm or HP Rock will hurt it badly, or even worse, I might sub or glare. A lot of people in PO carry at least 3 u-turners/volt change users and don't really mind shandera. May be 'nonsense', but there's a lot of us that don't really mind scarf shan.
Then again, I just ragequit when people successfully pull the Aianto/Shandera set up.
 
You didn't say Scarf Shandera, you just said Shandera. From here, I can see Specs Shandera killing everything on this team besides Garchomp and maybe your own Shandera.

And remember, none of these things have to or even will be at full health by the time Shandera comes in. For instance, an Empoleon at 70% or lower is effectively dead; Timid Specs Overheat does 71% minimum (71% - 83.9%).

Even if Scarf is the most popular set, Shandera has way, way more destructive potential than that. Underestimate it at your own peril.
 
You didn't say Scarf Shandera, you just said Shandera. From here, I can see Specs Shandera killing everything on this team besides Garchomp and maybe your own Shandera.

And remember, none of these things have to or even will be at full health by the time Shandera comes in. For instance, an Empoleon at 70% or lower is effectively dead; Timid Specs Overheat does 71% minimum (71% - 83.9%).

Even if Scarf is the most popular set, Shandera has way, way more destructive potential than that. Underestimate it at your own peril.

My bad, I was assuming scarf timid shandera the pervious posts.
 
May be 'nonsense', but there's a lot of us that don't really mind scarf shan.

Where are these people then? I just skimmed the last 3 pages and you're the only one saying anything of the sort (ps, you have a shitload of posts in this thread).

I can only talk from experience; I topped the DW PO ladder two days back and I found that, against battlers of similar deviation, play was very centralised around Shandera. There was a lot of Volt Change and U-turn spam, and you just knew the opponent was always looking for a Shandera victim. There was also a lot more Tyranitar, presumably to Pursuit Shandera away. Every single Nattorei was, as far as I could see, holding a Shed Shell. Things with Fire/Ghost weaks such as Burungeru, Celebi, Scizor and Metagross were practically non-existent despite them being fantastic Pokemon. Of course, centralisation =/= broken but what I found most annoying is how quickly games can degenerate into a revenge-kill fest. There has been so many times where I've wanted to strike the final blow on an opposing Pokemon but I know that if I do that, Shandera will just waltz in and kill me and I simply can't afford to lose that Pokemon just yet so I have to make a dumb switch or something like that. It's like 'you kill me, I kill you, then you kill me and I kill you again' and whoever's left standing at the end wins YAY! Of course, this can be attributed to how hyper-offensive the metagame is right now but it's obvious from playing that Shandera is the main culprit.

It's also noteworthy that I haven't seen a single stall team on DW, but I ran into a couple on Wi-Fi. You wanna hazard a guess as to why that is?
 
I'm interested in the Team Synergy of Shandera and Tyranitar (Much like the Electivire/Gyarados combo) easily abusing Shadow Tag to get +6/+6 or an easy kill.
 
lets not forget shandeera has a base 80 speed. at 1st thought its good at ruining the stalling steel pokemon like skarmory,bronzong, and other defensive steel pokemon. shandeera has limits to what it can sweep,but when used by an experienced trainer you guarenteed 1 kill.
 
Yeah, Shandera and Magnezone are preventing me from putting Rugged Helmet on my poor Nuttre!

I like Shandera, and I think he's cool, but this time he's gone too far!
 
lets not forget shandeera has a base 80 speed. at 1st thought its good at ruining the stalling steel pokemon like skarmory,bronzong, and other defensive steel pokemon. shandeera has limits to what it can sweep,but when used by an experienced trainer you guarenteed 1 kill.

(First post) You could always just switch in to like blissey or a special attacker, trap it, then use nitro charge to get your below average speed up to +6, then use calm mind 6 times and destroy with shadow ball nitro charge and hidden power fighting. Use leftovers for recovery of hp, and your evs can be on more of the defensive side due to you being +6 in special attack special defence and speed.
 
Rayquaza said:
Perhaps the concept of "you must always be able to counter X pokemon" needs to be dropped once and for all from the metagame.

To be honest, I think we dropped that a long time ago. 4th Gen Lucario and Infernape, amongst others, didn't really have a solid counter but we never considered them anywhere near suspects.

There are far too many people in this thread who seem to think Shandera is best used as a sweeper; it really isn't. Calm Mind is a waste of his potential and I'm not surprised people are finding him underwhelming if that is what they're using. In my experience, Shandera is the dictionary definition of the Support Characteristic but is not even close to meeting the Offensive Characteristic.

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
 
Where are these people then? I just skimmed the last 3 pages and you're the only one saying anything of the sort (ps, you have a shitload of posts in this thread).

I can only talk from experience; I topped the DW PO ladder two days back and I found that, against battlers of similar deviation, play was very centralised around Shandera. There was a lot of Volt Change and U-turn spam, and you just knew the opponent was always looking for a Shandera victim. There was also a lot more Tyranitar, presumably to Pursuit Shandera away. Every single Nattorei was, as far as I could see, holding a Shed Shell. Things with Fire/Ghost weaks such as Burungeru, Celebi, Scizor and Metagross were practically non-existent despite them being fantastic Pokemon. Of course, centralisation =/= broken but what I found most annoying is how quickly games can degenerate into a revenge-kill fest. There has been so many times where I've wanted to strike the final blow on an opposing Pokemon but I know that if I do that, Shandera will just waltz in and kill me and I simply can't afford to lose that Pokemon just yet so I have to make a dumb switch or something like that. It's like 'you kill me, I kill you, then you kill me and I kill you again' and whoever's left standing at the end wins YAY! Of course, this can be attributed to how hyper-offensive the metagame is right now but it's obvious from playing that Shandera is the main culprit.

It's also noteworthy that I haven't seen a single stall team on DW, but I ran into a couple on Wi-Fi. You wanna hazard a guess as to why that is?
Hi there, never had any problem dealing with Shandera. In fact, I cannot recall the last time it happened to me that Shandera killed a Pokemon of mine that Dugtrio wouldn't have.

I must say, Shandera is kinda completely fucked by my main strategies, so it may be a coincidence. Nonetheless, from my point of view, a Golduck is more threatening than Shandera.
 
I do hope you realize that even though Shandera causes minimal trouble for your team, you understand why everyone else has a problem with it, correct?

Also, I would like to see that team of yours, if you don't mind. If it's Trick Room, you can spare us the liberty of doing so, as it explains more than enough.
 
Hi there, never had any problem dealing with Shandera. In fact, I cannot recall the last time it happened to me that Shandera killed a Pokemon of mine that Dugtrio wouldn't have.

I must say, Shandera is kinda completely fucked by my main strategies, so it may be a coincidence. Nonetheless, from my point of view, a Golduck is more threatening than Shandera.

So you have nothing 4x weak to Ice or Grass, or 2x weak to Fire or Ghost? Because a Scarf set with Shadow Ball, Fire Blast, Energy Ball, and Hidden Power Ice can take out quite a lot. Add to that the CM set which beats Blissey, and the Specs set which can even handle stuff like Swampert and Roobushin, and I highly doubt you simply don't have trouble with Shandera. Try raising the minimum rating of the competition, because your opponents must not be very good at all. Any one of these sets is pretty much guaranteed one kill against any given team, unless of course you're running a team full of stuff like Lanturn and Snorlax. The bold part is hilarious, tbh.
 
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