Chandelure

[Bombkirby]

No offense, but Shandera likely isn't the only pokemon you have issues with if you carry only a single pokemon faster than base 80 speed. Even ScarfRotom would have helped you out by Tricking a Scarf.

Another thing to note is that you can now see your opponents' team before battling them, which means you know they have Shandera. From the start, you should think of a way to execute your strategy no matter which pokemon the chandelier manages to pick off.

"it was still behind a sub"

;)

Yeah I had 1 really fast guy left but he was screwed as all he could do was kill the sub. And what good is that? And are you implying I NEED a tricker on my team? That I NEED to build a team around countering Shanderaa? Noooooo thanks. :O

Also I'm very sure you can only see the opponent's team if its a random wifi match. Thats how PBR worked. (3v3 and everything.) If its a friend code match it should be private.

 

[Bombkirby]

Just about any decent Choice banded Aqua Jet user OHKO's Shanderaa.
The fact that it's going to Calm Mind and/or Nitro Charge 6 times is to be expected from most players right now and it's a noobish strategy that will drop in usage pretty soon.

Or you could bait it in coming on something it clearly has the advantage against that's running a surprise Shed Shell, then switch into something like Flash Fire Houndoom or Tyranitar and KO it with Pursuit.

Shanderaa is far from broken, it's just that Gen 4 tactics don't work anymore.

ONCE again..."still behind a sub"

I'd need two aqua jetters to kill the sub then the actual pokemon.

EDIT: YEAH YEAH SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST! I'm used to mmochamp's auto combine system where if you post twice it automatically merges the
posts! >_<

EDIT: Also, not even Ditto could stop it! I just learned (very painfully) u can't transform into things behind subs.

 

[RocketSurgery]

Yeah I had 1 really fast guy left but he was screwed as all he could do was kill the sub. And what good is that? And are you implying I NEED a tricker on my team? That I NEED to build a team around countering Shanderaa? Noooooo thanks. :O

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of the cure". Instead of building your team to deal with subCM DW Shandera you should make sure your team is capable of preventing its setup, which is a lot less specific. Have a pokemon which is setup bait? Either slap a shed shell on it, give it U-turn/Volt Change/Baton Pass, or don't send it out until you know they don't have shandera/shandera is dead. Shed shell is a little specific, but escaping moves are useful for more that getting away from shandera. Scouting is always a good idea when you don't know the foe's team. To prevent the set-up, taunt is a good thing to have on a pokemon, and works against anything that tries to set up. Roar/whirlwind is also good for any set-up foe and work through subs. Stealth rock and spikes are also handy, as they'll take chunks out of shandera's health (spikes not so much if shandera has a balloon).

There a lots of ways to prevent a setup, and lots of them aren't shandera-specific. So yes, you are expected to be able to deal with subCM DW Shandera. You always have to worry pokemon which are problematic for your team. RMT threads often have very long threat lists where the poster would detail how their teams could deal with specific threats.


It's probably worth reminding people that if any DW Shandera is going to be broken, it will most likely be scarf, as it can revenge kill (or just kill if you can get it in safely) a foe's pokemon that could be trouble for your main sweeper. Particularly steel types - once they're down there's nothing to resist draco meteors or outrages.

 

[Athrosu]

I decided to give Shandera one last try with a more sweeper-ish set, and this one actually works pretty well.

Shandera@Salac Berry
Flash Fire
Modest, 252 SpAtk / 252 Spd / 6 Defense
- Endure
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- HP Fighting / Energy Ball / HP Ice

With a max SpAtk of 427, giving it attack power very nearly on par with Kyogre and Palkia, Shandera hardly needs Calm Mind boosts; however, its somewhat poor speed makes it easy to land a hit to one of its many common weaknesses, limiting its effectiveness. Unboosted, it can 2HKO almost anything short of special tanks like Blissey and Snorlax, but the speed needs to be fixed. Most people would probably respond by running Choice Scarf and making it another revenge killer, but I opted to try an older trick instead: Endure/Salac. Simple strategy: come in on a resisted attack (preferably Fire, for the boost), predict the super effective attack and Endure. After the Salac boost, it outruns everything slower than base 130 speed, allowing it to use its power to the fullest. I've heard that some people are using SubSalac Shandy on the ladder as well.

Unfortunately, Shandy's movepool is actually pretty poor; its offensive options are basically just Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, Psychic, and pretty much every special Fire move. Flamethrower/Fire Blast and Shadow Ball are no-brainers thanks to STAB, and of course you use Endure because it's the whole point of the set. Fourth move is to guarantee OHKOs on whatever particularly threatens your team; HP Fighting prevents it from being walled by Heatran, while Energy Ball is good for fighting off Water-types that don't have Aqua Jet.

Hardly perfect; it's screwed by most weather, Aqua Jet hurts it bad (it resists most other priority, though!) and Scarfed revenge killers can often rip it apart. Additionally, the Salac boost being a one-time thing kind of sucks, and most neutral hits are 2HKOs rather than OHKOs. As a late-game sweeper, though, it's possibly unmatched at shredding the remnants of your foe's team with no setup.

I had my Moroberu out (mushroom pig) and he uses spore and Shanderaa comes in! Well....I knew a grass and a fire move. I was screwed because I couldn't hurt it that much. All I could do was cower behind my substitute. And once it woke up it put down a sub and calm minded up 6 times. I couldnt do anything! Not even spore because of the sub! It's leftovers kept me from doing any large damage to it. And once it was set up it just swept me. Oh yeah it held that speed berry and became super fast after a few subs. So not cool.

So was it holding Leftovers or Salac Berry? Because it can't hold both.

 

[IcyMan28]

Like you said, Enduring down to Salac boost isn't the best of strategies. It is ruined by Sand, Hail, Bullet Punch, Sucker Punch, and Aqua Jet, though I guess it does resist Quick Attack/Extremespeed.

Not to mention that Shandera can accomplish the same with Modest + Choice Scarf, if sweeping late game is your concern. By then, you've likely eliminated or sufficiently weakened checks, and also had the utility of using Shandera as a revenge killer throughout the match. It could work, but it is generally inferior to other sets, IMO.

 

[SJCrew]

You can't switch to a counter against Dugtrio, either, but we don't ban Arena Trap. And let's not forget Magnet Pull and Pursuit, which together put dozens of Pokemon in danger of being trapped and killed at any time.

Dugtrio is incredibly weak, has no defenses, and can't trap flying foes. Magnet Pull only works on Steel types. Even as fellow trappers, they have absolutely nothing on Shandera. Trapping and killing the majority of the metagame is better than trapping and killing a portion of the metagame under certain circumstances.

Assuming sets and predicting the foe's usage is basic to countering ANY Pokemon.

But even with all of that preparation, he can't fully stop Shandera. Tyranitar with Pursuit might be a problem, but suppose for a moment it were a sub variant of Shandera. Then he can just sub on your Breloom, kill it, then WoW Tyranitar just to shit in your coffee. Choice Scarf is the most common and practical set ATM, but Shandera is perfectly capable of adapting the same way the metagame is. So instead of facing like, say, 100% DD Mences and blocking them all the time with a max/max Suicune, it could just become 60% DD/40% Mix. Right then and there, the fine line is blurred, even moreso when you're up against a powerful Pokemon with usable Speed and Shadow Tag.

Also, I'd like to mention this once more, just so we understand what we're dealing with: Shandera can trap and kill Tyranitar just like everything else. Even if you think you've got it all covered, your opponent could be just one step ahead of you.

Most things frail enough to be checked by Scizor's Bullet Punch are going to be in similar danger from Scizor's Pursuit; as such, they can't easily switch to a counter either.

Weavile, Tyranitar, and Mamoswine don't really care about Pursuit at all. Also, it requires prediction to use effectively, whereas Shadow Tag...doesn't.

All the rain teams in Gen V have been throwing a real wrench in Shandera's success; even Shadow Tag does no good against water sweepers. It's come to the point where I'm considering taking it off my team because I just don't get as much use out of it as I would a weather counter. Though saying that, it could be quite effective on a sun team, using Flash Fire to absorb boosted fire attacks aimed at your Grass-types and firing back with sun-boosted FF-boosted 140 SpAtk Flamethrower.

Specs Shandera can trap and kill a Politoed that's suffered a little bit of prior damage. Send in your weather starter and gg. Well, maybe not, since some people like to go overboard and run two weather starters. Annoying fucks.

 

[soul_survivor]

there are limits to what shandera can beat. obviously faster pokemon have the upperhand. If sandstorm is out it can't kill dorryuuzu, and other fast pokemon like scarfchomp and did no one notice he doesn't really hurt sazando(dark/dragon) as he totally wall shandeera's moves. shandeera may be "broken" as it can stop many common walls but it is also very easy to beat.

 

[Athrosu]

One thing that could be interesting is Shandera in Ubers. I don't play ubers and thus don't know exactly how the metagame rolls, but basically half of Ubers is weak to Ghost and the damage calcs give some encouraging predictions about its performance. A super effective STABed Shadow Ball off a 145 base SpAtk is a terrifying thing, capable of 2HKOing Deoxys-D and Soul Dew Latios/Latias. Max HP Lugia and Giratina are barely 2HKOed; 51.9% - 61.1% and 53.1% - 62.7% respectively, so not guaranteed 2HKOs after Lefties, but still a very high chance. It has a guaranteed OHKO against 0 HP Mewtwo (but NOT 4 HP Mewtwo), and Timid Max SpAtk can only 3HKO it with unboosted Ice Beam. Fire Blast 2HKOes all but the bulkiest of Dialgas, and HP Electric 2HKOes less-bulky versions of Manaphy.

All that is unboosted, by the way - boost his SpAtk one level, and even mighty Lugia is OHKOed after Stealth Rock. Is that firepower usable, considering that it's basically the slowest thing in Ubers (except for Wobbuffet)? I don't know. On a Trick Room team, though, it could become deliciously fearsome.

Specs Shandera can trap and kill a Politoed that's suffered a little bit of prior damage. Send in your weather starter and gg. Well, maybe not, since some people like to go overboard and run two weather starters. Annoying fucks.

Even with Energy Ball, a max SpAtk Modest Shandera can only 2HKO Politoed, while Politoed always OHKOes back with Surf. In other words, if your definition of broken is "it can revenge kill a slower Pokemon which has already lost half of its health" then I think we're done here.

 

[Redjar]

Shandy's are pretty frail and not too fast. I generally don't have a problem w/ them, but I'm not running any choice sets either. Ditto is far more annyoing IMO.

 

[Agonist]

Did you know that Shandera gets Acid armor?:

Shandera
@Leftovers
Calm
252 sp attck 216 spd 48 sp def
nitro charge
acid armor
flamethrower
shadow ball

'Nuff said

what do those evs accomplish? And I'd rather just destroy shit than boost it's defense

 

[jrrrrrrr]

One thing that could be interesting is Shandera in Ubers. I don't play ubers and thus don't know exactly how the metagame rolls, but basically half of Ubers is weak to Ghost and the damage calcs give some encouraging predictions about its performance.

Another encouraging fact is that Shandera can benefit from Groudon's Sun in Ubers. I'd much rather have that on my team than Ninetales.

 

[TLK]

there are limits to what shandera can beat. obviously faster pokemon have the upperhand. If sandstorm is out it can't kill dorryuuzu, and other fast pokemon like scarfchomp and did no one notice he doesn't really hurt sazando(dark/dragon) as he totally wall shandeera's moves. shandeera may be "broken" as it can stop many common walls but it is also very easy to beat.

It's only easy to beat once it kills one of your Pokemon already. And without Pursuit he'll just come in again and pick up another free kill if he can.

Scarf Shandera with Shadow Tag is ridiculous.

 

[Charlemagne]

Specs Shandera can trap and kill a Politoed that's suffered a little bit of prior damage.

If it's raining, Shandera will have a hard time switching in on Politoed, regardless of how much HP it has. A Rain-Boosted Surf from a Politoed with no SpAtk investment whatsoever OHKO's 0/0 Shandera, even without SR damage.

I wouldn't call that a reliable way to get rid of Politoed. Gothiselle probably does a better job at that.

 

[SJCrew]

I wouldn't worry about switching in on Politoed, since it's not supposed to be a counter of any kind and that's usually a bad idea. Even if you have to get something killed, trapping and KOing Politoed is usually a harbinger of doom for Rain teams. Shandera can pushes the weather game in your favor pretty easily.

Gochiruzeru? Oh yeah, you're fucked. GG, Rain.

 

[shrang]

Anyone else using Shandera along with a Dragon-filled team?? He traps Steels better than Magnezone ever could. I'm using it on my uncreative 4drag(2)mag team (More like 4drag1mag1shand), and he's absolutely awesome. After you ruin their Metagross, Nattorei, Forretress oh whatever hell Steel they have, just spam CB Ononokusu, break down their walls and then just spam ScarfChomp or something like that for the win. Watch out for Ditto, though.

 

[Chou Toshio]

So far, I have found Spell Tag extremely underwelming, but this is probably because the only pokemon Shanderaa seems prone to switch into on my team is Skarmory, who was carrying Shed Shell for Magnezone anyway. Skarm-Tar is possibly even more lethal this gen than last. At least to Shanderaa. That is all.

Anyway, if that enemy Skarmory isn't getting Leftovers recovery, it probably isn't the best Shadow Tag target.

Edit: Shrang, that seems brilliant!

 

[KokoaKiwi]

Chou, Im pretty sure you mean Shadow Tag. Spell tag is a hold item D:

 

[Blln]

I've found Shanderaa to be pretty underwhelming, and this is coming from somebody who was absolutely sure it was going to be banned before testing it for myself. The main problem lies in its speed and its fire typing. Without a Choice Scarf, Shanderaa is far too slow to do what it wants to do, and every time it kills something it allows Terakion or Doryuuzu or Randorosu that one critical turn to set up which usually means the end of the game. However, with a Choice Scarf he becomes instant pursuit bait for Ttar or Scizor. I think the best way to use Shanderaa is to have a very specific game plan, like shrang's 4 dragon team, and use Shanderaa is a means of pulling that off, but you can't really just throw Shanderaa onto a regular team and expect it to break the game open for you because it just wont.

 

[Pidge]

Set-up Shandera sets are a joke. This metagame is dominated by Rain and Sand Pokemon, and the only way set-up Shandera will do anything is if Aianto has to 'Make Friend' with the foe first.

 

[deluge]

Unless the Smogon policy has changed Shadow Tag Shandera will not exist in the metagame yet right?
It seems they may only be releasing Gen V DW abilities in the third game at the earliest.

Anyway, people hate Shadow Tag but it seems that it can't be THAT bad on Shandera.
Having common weaknesses (including SR) and only moderate bulk should make it more manageable.

It'll be great for revenge-killing slower weakened Pokemon but can it really swtich in on near anything with little risk and trap the way Wob can?
Skarmory seems like reasonable bait but Skarm has been carrying shed shell for a generation to escape from Magnezone.
A Ground type wall like Hippowdon that always carries Quake (and sometimes Edge too) is also a very risky thing for Shandera to walk into as are bulky waters.

Shandera cannot hope to Trap/Kill something with a good Aquajet or Sucker Punch so it cannot eliminate its mortal enemies.
Furthermore, it'll always have to run when these switch in while taking SR damage (you did lay it right).

If you're slow and you kill something there's the chance that Shandera can switch in and revenge you.
However YOU killed something, YOU drew first blood, and your opponent only evened the score in a tit for tat transaction.
Hopefully, since you initiated the agression, you were wise enough to eliminate a Pokemon that would have hindered your strategy so you'll be ahead in some sense even though Shandera equalized numerically.
So it seems as if Shandera only gave your hapless opponent a tool to reduce YOUR Pokemon's brokeness (by ensuring that it fainted at most one of his Pokemon) and it's not inherently broken itself.

So to recap, switching in will often be risky for Shandera but it is probably a potent revenge killer (which implies something had already been fainted on the other side so Shandera only numerically evened the score).
This means that you may have to think carefully about what you kill with who because Shandera may exact swift vengenace on a Pokemon you were not ready to lose.
But it seems to encourage a higher level of strategy in it's role as a inescapable revenge killer from hell.
Since Shandera's flame of justice may not allow you to 'get away' with a kill you may need to arrange it wisely so you're still 'up' even if numerical equalization proves inevitable.
A Pokemon that's good at keeping your killing spree in check is waging a successful war against brokeness by inhibiting sweeps rather than being broken itself.

However, there are Pokemon that Shandera may be able to swtich into and setup on with little risk.
But any competent team should have the moves to dispatch a Shandera to prevent the fainting of more Pokemon (Aquajet, for example, which also checks the threatening Doryuuzu).
If your opponent had succeeded in eliminating your Shandera check then found an opportunity to set up and sweep you then you were outplayed and should be gracious in loss.

Just from what I've seen, I don't think Shandera has the tools to be truly overpowered even with Shadow Tag.
It may challenge assumptions from Gen IV such as the one that sweeps should be relatively easy (as if Mischievous Heart and Eccentric haven't done enough to that).
But it may end up doing more to balance than unbalance.

 

[Ulevo]

Anyone else using Shandera along with a Dragon-filled team?? He traps Steels better than Magnezone ever could. I'm using it on my uncreative 4drag(2)mag team (More like 4drag1mag1shand), and he's absolutely awesome. After you ruin their Metagross, Nattorei, Forretress oh whatever hell Steel they have, just spam CB Ononokusu, break down their walls and then just spam ScarfChomp or something like that for the win. Watch out for Ditto, though.

Exactly this. I've been using Shandera with great success. I have no idea how people have been coming to the conclusion he is underwhelming. Scarf Shandera just cleans up. Overheat is so strong for a trapper, and in the event you're in a pinch against a stronger sweeper you can't take down, use Memento. Shandera is very invaluable.

Tyranitar laughs in its face though. I think people will eventually catch on once they start getting irritated enough.

 

[TickingSeedotBomb]

I've been using Scarf Shandera with Shadow tag to awesome success in my sun team! HP Fighting hurts Tyranitar a great deal and Overheat just decimates! with a little rapid spin support scarf Shandera is utterly amazing! He usually wins M.V.P more often than not.

 

[Bologo]

Exactly this. I've been using Shandera with great success. I have no idea how people have been coming to the conclusion he is underwhelming. Scarf Shandera just cleans up. Overheat is so strong for a trapper, and in the event you're in a pinch against a stronger sweeper you can't take down, use Memento. Shandera is very invaluable.

Tyranitar laughs in its face though. I think people will eventually catch one they start getting irritated enough.

When people say Shandera is underwhelming, it's pretty obvious that they don't mean he's a bad pokemon. They just mean that he's underwhelming compared to what people were thinking before we actually started playing the game. Ie. they don't think he's living up to the hype that basically said he was undoubtedly uber or some shit like that. Kind of like how PorygonZ and Heracross were hyped up in the beginning of Gen 4. Frankly, I agree with them.

With that said, Shandera is still incredibly useful. His ability to get rid of threats that really annoy my team are nice. In essence, he's kind of like Heatran in Gen 4, who was the "glue" to a lot of teams. He's also a great Spinblocker, though he really has to watch out for Starmie and Doryuuzu. I don't like the CM sets, but the Choice Scarf set is very nice.

The thing is, on the DW ladder, there's a lot of ridiculous stuff like Eccentric Ditto, more Mischievous Heart users, Magic Mirror, all four weathers with auto-users, and stuff like that. When you have something like the DW ladder where there's possibly "too much" diversity, which can create chaos, Shandera helps keep things in check. This is just my opinion, but I think Shandera brings some helpful balance to the Dream World ladder, not the opposite.

The way I see Shandera, he's kind of like an OU-capable Dugtrio. The main reason Dugtrio fell into UU in Gen 4 IMO, was that he couldn't take more than one hit without dying horribly, and he just couldn't hit hard enough. Shandera can do this, but he can't do it overwhelmingly well either, which is why I really can't see him as broken.

I just hope that people will accept this as a new generation and have an open mind about adapting to stuff like Shandera. He's honestly not that difficult to play around. Just make sure that your team is both dependent on each other, but also independent. The only way Shandera will completely ruin your team is if you lose one pokemon and your team completely crumples as a result. This isn't Shandera's fault, that's your team's fault. Every pokemon on the team should at least be able to do something, regardless of who's alive on the team. Basically what I'm saying is, have a strategy to carry out on your team, but make it so that your team will still have a fighting chance if the strategy fails. If you don't do this, I can guarantee that Shandera will only be one of the problems your team faces.

 

[Master Morty]

what do those evs accomplish? And I'd rather just destroy shit than boost it's defense

they allow Shandera to take a special hit twice when it acid armors, and then nitro charges, giving it exactly enough speed to outspeed the majority of ou. It plays more defensively than the cm/scarf sets, but look at Shandera's base 145 sp attack stat. Does that really need a boost?

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

they allow Shandera to take a special hit twice when it acid armors, and then nitro charges, giving it exactly enough speed to outspeed the majority of ou. It plays more defensively than the cm/scarf sets, but look at Shandera's base 145 sp attack stat. Does that really need a boost?

Well,lots of times,my Shandera can't OHKO and will die if I have low HP.
So yes,Shandera could use a bit of a boost.