^or maybe if he receives ice punch as a move tutor. Being able to take on gliscor is something only a few Fighting types can boast off.
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Conkeldurr
- Thread starter Colonel M
- Start date
Ice Punch on Conk would be amazing, much less things would be able to wall him, namely the mentioned Gliscor. It would also give Conkeldurr an edge over Breloom, as he can now more efficiently eliminate Pokemon such as Dragonite.
So many things wrong here, i'd like to correct a few of them.
Firstly;conkeldurr has an enormous advantage-he isn't 4X weak to flying, which means skarmory can't pummel him with ease. Secondly, he's got payback, which means he isn't easily beaten by celebi. Oh, and finally, i do believe that he is more bulky. You say that poison heal makes up for it, but if an attack kos it at 100%, it will KO it anyhow, whereas conkeldurr will survive and drain punch right back. A secondary stab in seed bomb is pretty useless anyhow, and spore,while cool, can be absorbed by sacrifice bait. In short, i find that breloom is much easier to take out in every way, other than perhaps having to lose a pokemon to spore. I mean, what does conkeldurr lose to that breloom doesn't? The only things i can think of are powerful water-type attackers, and even then mach punch plus drain punch can crush them as they switch in.
Conkeldurr's niche over scrafty is not getting brutalised by conkeldurr, having an actual attack stat, guts to feed off of status instead of throwing it off, and mach punch.
Oh yeah, and one of alphatron's main points was that it would be hit by a heatran's fire blast to the face... good luck as i either use guts boosted plus one mach punch(Ninetales loves them status so i can get it) or catch you on the switch with drain punch.
As for rain, conk fares about as well as breloom does minus the water resist-either they lack toxicroak and you can F things up, or they have it and you can't. Only difference is that breloom can spore something, but then conkeldurr can't be beaten down by scizor.
Okay, first of all, even though Conkeldurr isn't x4 weak to Flying, it still takes hefty damage from Brave Bird, even after a Bulk Up. Yes, Celebi shits all over Breloom, but Slowbro and such shit on Conkeldurr. Every Pokemon has its checks and counters. You're also only listing the negatives of that secondary Grass-typing and completely ignoring the positives, namely the Electric and Water resistances. While Conkeldurr does indeed have more natural bulk, this is mitigated by the fact that Breloom gets an extra 6.25% health each turn. Seed Bomb is definitely not "pretty useless anyhow", as it allows Breloom to be probably the best Rain-stallbreaker in the meta. As for the Spore issue, yeah, you can sac a Poke to take it, but at the end of the day, you've still sacced a Poke. With new sleep mechanics Breloom is almost guaranteed to put at least one Pokemon out of commission for the duration of the game, Conkeldurr has done a good job if it even takes out one of the opponent's Pokes.
You also fail to realize that while there are more Pokemon out there that can deal with Breloom than Conkeldurr, Breloom defeats more Pokemon out there than Conkeldurr. What are the teams that Breloom does best against? Volt-turn and Rain stall, two of the three most common team archetypes. The third of these team archetypes, Sand, doesn't fare much better against Breloom, as their king, Tyranitar, gets absolutely dominated by Breloom. Breloom is a much better fit for the current metagame, and that's that.
yup, and don't waste time with Bulk Up+Flame Orb - use one or the other. You already hit hard enough with the Guts boost and you should really be punching holes and hitting and running - not sweeping teams. Drain Punch/Mach Punch/Facade/Payback @ Orb is his best set.
Guts Drain Punch vs 252/0 Politoed = 70% - 83%
Guts Drain Punch vs 252/0 Rotom-W = 66% - 78%
Guts Drain Punch vs 248/0 Scizor = 62% - 73%
Guts Facade vs 252/184+ Gliscor = 48% - 57%
Guts Facade vs 4/0 Dragonite (Multi-Scale broken) = 85% - 100%
Guts Facade vs 4/0 Celebi = 77% - 91%
Guts Facade vs 252/0 Latias = 79% - 93%
Guts Facade vs 252/252+ Reuniclus = 54% - 63%
Guts Mach Punch vs 4/0 Rotom-W = 44% - 52%
Guts Mach Punch vs 4/0 Terrakion = 77% - 91%
Payback (100BP) vs 252/252+ Jellicent = 84% - 100%
Don't waste time statting up while the opponent switches to a hard hitting special attacker - just start smashing everything that moves.
Guts Facade vs 252/0 Machamp = 83% - 97%
Guts Drain Punch vs 252/0 Politoed = 70% - 83%
Guts Drain Punch vs 252/0 Rotom-W = 66% - 78%
Guts Drain Punch vs 248/0 Scizor = 62% - 73%
Guts Facade vs 252/184+ Gliscor = 48% - 57%
Guts Facade vs 4/0 Dragonite (Multi-Scale broken) = 85% - 100%
Guts Facade vs 4/0 Celebi = 77% - 91%
Guts Facade vs 252/0 Latias = 79% - 93%
Guts Facade vs 252/252+ Reuniclus = 54% - 63%
Guts Mach Punch vs 4/0 Rotom-W = 44% - 52%
Guts Mach Punch vs 4/0 Terrakion = 77% - 91%
Payback (100BP) vs 252/252+ Jellicent = 84% - 100%
Don't waste time statting up while the opponent switches to a hard hitting special attacker - just start smashing everything that moves.
Guts Facade vs 252/0 Machamp = 83% - 97%
This makes a lot of sense actually. Flame Orb Conkeldurr is the Choice Band set with a status immunity and the ability to switch moves. Drain Punch mitigates the burn damage. It makes a cool Trick switch-in too!
Does the Choice Band set have any advantages over Flame Orb? Maybe it can run Hammer Arm instead of Drain Punch a little more comfortably due to the lack of burn damage?
Is this set better than the standard Leftovers Bulk Up set? Which is the standard/most popular Conkeldurr set at the moment? Lastly, what is the Band set used for? A while ago Bulk Up was the standard, and Band was used for Excadrill, as Mach Punch couldn't OHKO without it.
Why have Toxic orb? Flame orb is the much more prefered item since it does not badly poisons conkeldurr
Toxic Orb will deal less damage if you plan on staying in for 1 or 2 turns and the same amount of damage as Flame Orb if you stay in 3 turns. I'm not sure which orb is better on Conkeldurr, but it probably depends mainly on how you play it.
cb conkeldurr is the only one i have ever / will ever use, lol. the really scary thing about cb conkeldurr is when it gets a guts boost on top of the Choice Band boost - something is definitely dying every time it comes in, especially since most opponents go 'lol bulk up'.
superpower v. its most common switchins in my experience
physically defensive Skarmory 88.02 - 103.59%
physically defensive Forretress 86.44 - 101.69%
standard 4/0 Latios 101.65 - 119.86%
standard 252/240+ Tentacruel 66.75 - 78.57%
gliscor and slowbro deal with it just fine though, and prediction wars if the opponent has a gengar or a jellicent suck, but considering how bulky it is (pair it with wish jirachi!) and how easily it switches in, i'd use it over something like Terrakion any day.
I'd always use hammer arm on a CB set. It deals 48,5% - 57,49% to physically defensive Skarm, which is a clean 2hko with SR and since you're slower than Skarm it can't roost stall. If you can get a guts boost which, unfortunately, is only situational, you can do up to 85% to the same Skarm. Superpower's immediate power (no pun) exposes Conkeldurr to be an easy revenge kill prey and Skarm itself can OHKO it with brave bird after the defence drop.
To be honest though, I still think that the BU variant is the best one. The ability to switch moves while boosting your stats and recovering HP with drain punch is invaluable for something with the Conk's "staying power".
As for the comparison with Terrakion I think you're understimating Terra a bit. Being able to outspeed and OHKO (after a SD) the premier fighting counter in the game is something that Conkeldurr would kill for. Also, unlike Conkeldurr, Terrakion can use its speed to act as a solid revenge killer to many offensive threats of the current meta such us DD Nite and Salamence and other stat uppers like Volcarona.
To be honest though, I still think that the BU variant is the best one. The ability to switch moves while boosting your stats and recovering HP with drain punch is invaluable for something with the Conk's "staying power".
As for the comparison with Terrakion I think you're understimating Terra a bit. Being able to outspeed and OHKO (after a SD) the premier fighting counter in the game is something that Conkeldurr would kill for. Also, unlike Conkeldurr, Terrakion can use its speed to act as a solid revenge killer to many offensive threats of the current meta such us DD Nite and Salamence and other stat uppers like Volcarona.
Just posting to say that i agree with Tehy and many things posted here are wrong. No set of Conkeldur is outclassed by Brellom. The Bulk Up set is impossible to take down from the physical side after 1 Bulk Up unlike Breloom, who still dies from any remotely strong super effective attack or very powerful neutral physical attacks, like Infernape's Flare Blitz, CB Haxorus's Outrage, Gyarados's Bounce, Skarmory's Brave Bird, Gliscor's Acrobat, Mamoswine's Icicle Crash, Cloyster's Icicle Spear and some more that i may forget... Also Conkeldurr has an immensely more powerful Attack than Breloom, which doesn't use any EVs in Attack since you are talking about the Bulk Up set. Conkedlurr has room for Mach Punch, unlike Breloom and can destroy Celebi also unlike Breloom. All that are without Guts activated, which if you do, then Conk is in another level of power from Breloom. The CB and the Flame Orb set are again 2 times stronger than Breloom initially, have very strong priority, and have much better bulk initially.
I am not saying that Brellom doesn't have its pros, like Spore, Poison Heal and Grass typing, but it doesn't outclass Conkeldurr in any way...
Breloom also fears priority moves. Bullet Punch and Ice Shard especially as both are 2HKOs on Breloom at worst. Iron Fist boosted Mach Punch rivals Technican Mach Punch, I believe. On the note of Ice Punch for Conkeldurr, it's likely to get it, if mostly due to Iron Fist. Breloom, for some reason, did not get it in 4th or 3rd Gen so I doubt it'll get this gen, but Seed Bomb does sizable damage to Gliscor. If Conkeldurr DOES get Ice Punch, it definitely will not be outclassed by Breloom.
Honestly though, both Pokemon are different, neither outclasses the other. It just depends on what you need; Breloom's ability to use Focus Punch no problem, Poison Heal, Spore and (once) unique typing, or Conkeldurr's superb bulk, power and tanking abilities, as well as Guts.
Honestly though, both Pokemon are different, neither outclasses the other. It just depends on what you need; Breloom's ability to use Focus Punch no problem, Poison Heal, Spore and (once) unique typing, or Conkeldurr's superb bulk, power and tanking abilities, as well as Guts.
fair enough, different niches, my bad for bringing up the comparison.
how well does BU fare against Gliscor? subtoxic wins, acrobat wins, but what about the other two variants?
After a bulk up you can do 34,75% - 40,96% to the standard defensive variant of Gliscor with stone edge and 51,98% - 61,3% if your get a guts boost. Poison heal will probably turn a clean 2hko in a 3hko and a 3hko in a 4hko, and this is assuming that Gliscor taunts you as it comes in. So, yeah, you can beat toxic\taunt\EQ\protect Gliscor 1 vs 1.
Taunt\SD\EQ\ice fang Gliscor will still beat you, unless you get very lucky with damage rolls as a +2 EQ does 37,8% - 44,88% to a +1 def Conk (this is assuming a defensive SD Gliscor).
In conclusion, the only Conkeldurr that can reliably beat Gliscor is the, uncommon, suicide variant with toxic orb+facade. With guts boosted facade you can do up to 85% to a defensive Gliscor after a BU. Unfortunately this set has many drawbacks, notably:
1) stat up move+mach punch+facade+drain punch means that you'll be completely walled by ghost types;
2) loss of leftovers+hazards+toxic damage+possible sandstorm damage will make Conkeldurr last just a few turns.
I just really want to come in and say just how much goddamn ass Conkledurr is kicking for me these days. I've used him on pretty much all of my most recent teams and as long as I don't waste him too early he tends to tear teams limb from limb after just one or two boosts. Not to mention how easy it is to secure a guts boost in this metagame; hell, sometimes dumbasses will even Toxic you on purpose thinking they can stall you to death before you go and wipe out half their team.
What I love about him in particular is that his bulk is just enough to survive a plethora of attacks, allowing him to overcome the vast majority of his checks and then go on a sweep. Just a modest investment in Special Defense gives him to the bulk to take weak to medium powered special attacks with ease, allowing him to do things like lure in and obliterate Rotom-W and Latios that think they can remove you with coverage moves.
I would also like to say that I have almost universally found Payback to be better than Stone Edge. It's more reliable, and with it he can remove his own Ghost and Psychic type checks on the switch, frequently allowing him to go to town and decimate the entire enemy team.
Basically this is just a splurge about my love for the dorky looking mon, since it has proven to be one of the most effective bulky attackers I've ever used. What it really has over Breloom and Scrafty is that it has a near perfect balance between power and bulk, giving it JUST the amount it needs to muscle past the Pokemon that stop the other two cold. Breloom gets KO'd by special attacks too easily, whereas Conkledurr can actually set up on a pretty big number of weaker special attackers. Conk is perhaps the most successful sweeper I've ever used (partly because unlike Dnite nothing is really prepared for it).
What I love about him in particular is that his bulk is just enough to survive a plethora of attacks, allowing him to overcome the vast majority of his checks and then go on a sweep. Just a modest investment in Special Defense gives him to the bulk to take weak to medium powered special attacks with ease, allowing him to do things like lure in and obliterate Rotom-W and Latios that think they can remove you with coverage moves.
I would also like to say that I have almost universally found Payback to be better than Stone Edge. It's more reliable, and with it he can remove his own Ghost and Psychic type checks on the switch, frequently allowing him to go to town and decimate the entire enemy team.
Basically this is just a splurge about my love for the dorky looking mon, since it has proven to be one of the most effective bulky attackers I've ever used. What it really has over Breloom and Scrafty is that it has a near perfect balance between power and bulk, giving it JUST the amount it needs to muscle past the Pokemon that stop the other two cold. Breloom gets KO'd by special attacks too easily, whereas Conkledurr can actually set up on a pretty big number of weaker special attackers. Conk is perhaps the most successful sweeper I've ever used (partly because unlike Dnite nothing is really prepared for it).
My comments in BOLD.
Also, the above post is just so, so true. Thank you, Jimera.
Finally, some of this stuff is arguable, but you need to provide some proof before you start acting all cocky.
IMO, conkeldurr fears skarmory much more than breloom does. Skarmory outspeeds conkeldurr and taunts him before he can get enough boosts. Breloom is usually able to outspeed skarmory and put him to sleep before he can threaten breloom (assuming sleep clause isn't already active), and therefore fears him much less. Also, breloom can boost its attack TWO stages in one turn thanks to swords dance, something conkeldurr can't do.
Skarmory can just bait the Spore and then switch and sac a poke, then proceed to smash loom for the rest of the match with that 4x Brave Bird. The vast majority of Skarm don't run taunt anyway, so they'll have to eat a Drain Punch for a respectable chunk of damage if they want to WW out conk. If they try to BB, they'll just get their damage healed off by that mighty Drain Punch anyway. Loom is a great pokemon, I'm not disputing that, but saying that it outclasses Conkeldurr is just ridiculous. Conk can just rampage through most teams, especially the standard volt-turn if it doesn't have some kind of weird LO Psychic Celebi. Conkeldurr has been a key player on a lot of my most successful teams, and those who put it down are probably looking at its performance on paper as opposed to its performance in actual matches against common team archetypes.
Did I mention that it breaks standard stall better than Loom, because Skarm doesn't rape it?
Conkeldurr can 2-3hko Skarmory no matter what the set (CB Conk 2hkoes with Hammer Arm, and Bulk Up 2hkoes at +1 if statused or 3hkoes at +1 unstatused), while Brelloom fails to do any significant damage before getting WWed out, after Sleep Clause is activated.
So Conk owns Skarmory while Brelloom not.
I don't consider a 2-3 HKO particularly ownage. You can phaze it out the first 2 times it comes in, and if need be you can go suicidal with it on brave bird. I think only bar a crit on drain punch or the rare choice band set, Conk has never outright beat Skarmory for me, at worse they both go down.
Well considering the fact that Conkeldur can easily be statused if you play smartly, and also that Skarmory is switching in against Conk, so he will be at +1, and you realize that your only option is to phaze him out while taking ~50% damage. And if WW brings out the wrong poke, good luck finding time to Roost again. Not saying that Skarmory cannot check Conk, but many times he is very pressed to do so...
The thing is, Conkeldurr isn't coming in against Skarmory. When you're attempting to counter/check something, you have to come in on it. Alexwolf summed it up pretty well; you'll stop the rampage for a short time at the cost of half of your Skarmory's HP. Gliscor is honestly a much better check to Conk then Skarmory or other common physical walls, as most are steels and vulnerable to that Fighting STAB. However, the only scor that really beats out conkeldurr is sub/protect/toxic, others will just be 2hkod/3hkod by payback without really denting it.
The best checks are Latios and other bulky psychics; they don't take much from payback on the switch in and threaten to OHKO him before he can fire off another payback.