Conkeldurr

lmitchell0012 said:
IMO, conkeldurr fears skarmory much more than breloom does. Skarmory outspeeds conkeldurr and taunts him before he can get enough boosts. Breloom is usually able to outspeed skarmory and put him to sleep before he can threaten breloom (assuming sleep clause isn't already active), and therefore fears him much less. Also, breloom can boost its attack TWO stages in one turn thanks to swords dance, something conkeldurr can't do.
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Dude I think your completely off. First of all I was talking about Sub Punch Conkeldurr so taunt really doesn't bother Conkeldurr that much. If anything, SubPunch Conkeldurr has an easier time with Taunt Skarm because they usually drop Brave Bird for Taunt...

Now Breloom fears Skarm way more than Conkeldurr does. Like The Truth said, any decent player would bait a spore and save Skarm if they were facing a Breloom. Breloom cant set up on skarm because its 4x weak to Brave Bird and Sub Punch can't hit Skarm as hard either. Conkeldurr on the other hand can easily take a Brave Bird if needed and has a chance to 2HKO with SR.

IMO Conkeldurr and Breloom are very different pokes that are played completely different from each other. Don't know why theres so much comparison between the two.
 
Olympus said:
Dude I think your completely off. First of all I was talking about Sub Punch Conkeldurr so taunt really doesn't bother Conkeldurr that much. If anything, SubPunch Conkeldurr has an easier time with Taunt Skarm because they usually drop Brave Bird for Taunt...

Now Breloom fears Skarm way more than Conkeldurr does. Like The Truth said, any decent player would bait a spore and save Skarm if they were facing a Breloom. Breloom cant set up on skarm because its 4x weak to Brave Bird and Sub Punch can't hit Skarm as hard either. Conkeldurr on the other hand can easily take a Brave Bird if needed and has a chance to 2HKO with SR.

IMO Conkeldurr and Breloom are very different pokes that are played completely different from each other. Don't know why theres so much comparison between the two.
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If you have to let one of your other pokemon get crippled, skarmory isn't doing a very good job at countering breloom.

But you're just proving my point even more. You have to switch if you want to save skarmory. Unlike with breloom, skarmory doesn't have to switch on conkeldurr because conkeldurr can't cripple him.
 
Aside from Gliscor, Skarmory is one of the best Breloom counters... It sucks having something put to sleep but its impossible to cover every threat in the metagame this gen. After sleep clause is activated, Breloom is completely walled by skarm, but lets not get off topic here, this is a thread on Conkeldurr...


If Skarm switches into a Focus Punch, it can take over 50% and risks being 2HKOed because Conk can easily take at least one Brave Bird. If you try to phaze it away, your still going to have to take the Focus Punch and have the same risk... Best case scenario for Skarm is you live with almost no health left. Does that not count as being crippled?
 
@Limitchell

According to your logic nothing except Poison Heal Gliscor counters Brelloom because of Sleep Clause right?

But this isn't how things work... You sac the least valuable member of your team to sleep and then you counter it, this is how it goes, so give Skarmory a break already as this argument ain't getting nowhere.
 
I've recently been using sub punch Conkeldurr, and it's awesome. That focus punch just dents so much. And the fact that people still think It's a BU one means the opportunity to make a sub is that much easier. And the unprotected Focus Punches are awesome. ;3
 
I don't know sub punch makes it a lot easier to take down because after you take a hit, and kill it's sub, it can't do shit with it's sub gone. It just seems to situtational, it probably fairly well at taking down a pokemon vs. offensive teams, but on the other hand it also gives them the opportunity to set up on conk.
 
Scarfwynaut said:
I don't know sub punch makes it a lot easier to take down because after you take a hit, and kill it's sub, it can't do shit with it's sub gone. It just seems to situtational, it probably fairly well at taking down a pokemon vs. offensive teams, but on the other hand it also gives them the opportunity to set up on conk.
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The times I've used it has been situational I admit, but when I do use it to a good advantage it works wonders. But subpunch is not the best thing in the world granted, but it's not bad imo.
 
CB Conk may work well, but then Gliscor, Skarm and Jellicent wall it. Gengar can come in for free and threaten Conk out. CB Conk has raw power, but being choice-locked is just the cue for some pokemon to jump in laugh in Conkeldurr's face and set up. However, if conk is able to switch up moves, then Payback will hit for Super effective on Gengar and Jellicent. Skarm and Gliscor still may threaten Conk though...
 
I've tried Flame Orb/Toxic Orb set. This set can easily abuse Guts and Id like to see what you guys think. I use the following set.

Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb/Toxic Orb Lv. 100 -- Guts
Nature: Adamant - EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 SDef
-Mach Punch
-Facade
-Payback
-Drain Punch

OR
Conkeldurr @ Flame /Toxic Orb Lv. 100 -- Guts
Nature: Impish - EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 Spd

-Mach Punch
-Payback
-Drain Punch
-Stone Edge
 
Dr Ciel said:
I've tried Flame Orb/Toxic Orb set. This set can easily abuse Guts and Id like to see what you guys think. I use the following set.

Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb/Toxic Orb Lv. 100 -- Guts
Nature: Adamant - EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 SDef
-Mach Punch
-Facade
-Payback
-Drain Punch

OR
Conkeldurr @ Flame /Toxic Orb Lv. 100 -- Guts
Nature: Impish - EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 Spd

-Mach Punch
-Payback
-Drain Punch
-Stone Edge
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switch your evs to 128hp, 252atk, 128spd change your nature to adamant because with the status orbs you wont be lasting to long anyway even with drain punch so its best to deal as much damage as you can and facade or stone edge can both be very useful so its up to you
 
G-Von said:
I was wondering, how effective would a Sheer Force set be now that C-durr has the elemental punches?
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Surely Iron Fist (if it's released) is better? As that boost Drain Punch and Mach Punch too! Maybe a set with DP/MP/ThunderPunch(for Gyara)/IcePunch could work with Iron Fist. Nobody dares to status it as it might run Guts, and it gets a good enough boost with the other abilities. The element of suprise is there, which is always good.
 
G-Von said:
I was wondering, how effective would a Sheer Force set be now that C-durr has the elemental punches?
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Unless I am mistaken with my mathematics, running Guts is better it seems. Running Sheer Force+Life Orb nets you a 1.6 boost while Guts+Flame Orb nets you a 1.5 boost in power. So in exchange for a small 10% power drop, you gain all the secondary effects more importantly a status "immunity". Running Guts makes facing bulky waters much safet since you won't have to fear a 30% chance of being absolutely crippled

As much as I love Conkeldurr he really is having a hard time with TornadusIT dominating.
 
iamQmai said:
Surely Iron Fist (if it's released) is better? As that boost Drain Punch and Mach Punch too! Maybe a set with DP/MP/ThunderPunch(for Gyara)/IcePunch could work with Iron Fist. Nobody dares to status it as it might run Guts, and it gets a good enough boost with the other abilities. The element of suprise is there, which is always good.
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I just checked and iron fist is NOT released yet, so sheer force is the only way to go. Also I checked and I couldn't find any information anywhere that said the Life Orb bug had been fixed so I'm assuming you can still use the life orb for free.

Finally, even if it got Iron Fist, Iron Fist only provides a 20% boost instead of a 30% like sheer force, and does not negate life orb recoil. Determining which is superior isn't as simple as it might first seem.

So, anyway, looking at a sheer force set, it actually seems to have a lot of merit now. The elemental punches give it ridiculous coverage when combined with fighting type moves, allowing conk to hit almost everything super-effectively. Life orb negation allows Conk to get a huge power boost without losing any coverage or health as well.

Unfortunately, sheer force still affects precious few fighting type moves, meaning Conk's choice of STAB is rather difficult. It can opt for Drain Punch, Mach Punch or Hammer Arm as always, but will take Life Orb damage when using those moves. The Sheer force boosted options are unfortunately limited to Dynamic Punch (lol), Focus Blast (LOL), Rock Smash (LOLOLOLOLOL) Low Sweep and Force Palm, with only the last two being even considerable. However, both are only very slightly more powerful than Drain Punch after Sheer Force, so Drain Punch is probably the better option since the healing will offset recoil.

Still, when you're hitting 11/17 types super-effectively, it might be worth considering. At the very least it makes skarmory and gliscor think twice before switching in!
 
Jimera0 said:
Finally, even if it got Iron Fist, Iron Fist only provides a 20% boost instead of a 30% like sheer force, and does not negate life orb recoil. Determining which is superior isn't as simple as it might first seem.

So, anyway, looking at a sheer force set, it actually seems to have a lot of merit now. The elemental punches give it ridiculous coverage when combined with fighting type moves, allowing conk to hit almost everything super-effectively. Life orb negation allows Conk to get a huge power boost without losing any coverage or health as well.

Unfortunately, sheer force still affects precious few fighting type moves, meaning Conk's choice of STAB is rather difficult. It can opt for Drain Punch, Mach Punch or Hammer Arm as always, but will take Life Orb damage when using those moves. The Sheer force boosted options are unfortunately limited to Dynamic Punch (lol), Focus Blast (LOL), Rock Smash (LOLOLOLOLOL) Low Sweep and Force Palm, with only the last two being even considerable. However, both are only very slightly more powerful than Drain Punch after Sheer Force, so Drain Punch is probably the better option since the healing will offset recoil.

Still, when you're hitting 11/17 types super-effectively, it might be worth considering. At the very least it makes skarmory and gliscor think twice before switching in!
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I would probably prefer Sheer Force>Iron Fist too. I guess a SF set with life orb and Mach Punch/Drain Punch/Thunderpunch/Ice Punch would be a decent set for it. It is a shame that his best fighting moves that are boosted by SF are so weak though.


ThePillsburyDoughBoy said:
Unless I am mistaken with my mathematics, running Guts is better it seems. Running Sheer Force+Life Orb nets you a 1.6 boost while Guts+Flame Orb nets you a 1.5 boost in power. So in exchange for a small 10% power drop, you gain all the secondary effects more importantly a status "immunity". Running Guts makes facing bulky waters much safet since you won't have to fear a 30% chance of being absolutely crippled

As much as I love Conkeldurr he really is having a hard time with TornadusIT dominating.
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I'm pretty sure its 1.69. Not 1.6 since you do not add the boosts. They are supposed to be multiplied.
 
G-Von said:
I would probably prefer Sheer Force>Iron Fist too. I guess a SF set with life orb and Mach Punch/Drain Punch/Thunderpunch/Ice Punch would be a decent set for it. It is a shame that his best fighting moves that are boosted by SF are so weak though.




I'm pretty sure its 1.69. Not 1.6 since you do not add the boosts. They are supposed to be multiplied.
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Mach Punch would hit so weakly though... still might be the best option. As for the way the boosts stack, it actually depends on whether the game applies the second boost to the modified stat or the unmodified stat. In the first case you are right, but in the second case you're not. Everywhere I've read has said 1.6x boost though so I'm presuming that it was tested a long time back and found to be the later case. I'd have to check though.


Pillsbury does bring up a good point though, as the choice between Guts and Flame orb and SF and LO is not very clear cut. Let me spell out the pros and cons.

LO and SF:

Pros:
-Slightly more powerful coverage moves.
-No passive damage from using coverage moves
-No set up time for boost

Cons:
-Slightly weaker STAB moves
-Vulnerable to status
-Weaker Payback (should you chose to use it)

Guts and Flame Orb:

Pros:
- More powerful STAB moves
- Immunity to status after 1 turn on the field
- Stronger Payback (should you chose to use it)

Cons:
- Boost requires 1 turn on the field to activate
- Large amounts of constant passive damage
- Weaker coverage moves except for Payback

As you can see, it's a bit of a wash. The Flame Orb set sacrifices a LOT of survivability in return for the status immunity and more powerful STAB. Really, the choice probably just comes down to personal preference.
 
Jimera0 said:
Mach Punch would hit so weakly though... still might be the best option. As for the way the boosts stack, it actually depends on whether the game applies the second boost to the modified stat or the unmodified stat. In the first case you are right, but in the second case you're not. Everywhere I've read has said 1.6x boost though so I'm presuming that it was tested a long time back and found to be the later case. I'd have to check though.


Pillsbury does bring up a good point though, as the choice between Guts and Flame orb and SF and LO is not very clear cut. Let me spell out the pros and cons.

LO and SF:

Pros:
-Slightly more powerful coverage moves.
-No passive damage from using coverage moves
-No set up time for boost

Cons:
-Slightly weaker STAB moves
-Vulnerable to status
-Weaker Payback (should you chose to use it)

Guts and Flame Orb:

Pros:
- More powerful STAB moves
- Immunity to status after 1 turn on the field
- Stronger Payback (should you chose to use it)

Cons:
- Boost requires 1 turn on the field to activate
- Large amounts of constant passive damage
- Weaker coverage moves except for Payback

As you can see, it's a bit of a wash. The Flame Orb set sacrifices a LOT of survivability in return for the status immunity and more powerful STAB. Really, the choice probably just comes down to personal preference.
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With how you broke it down it is pretty much up to personal preference. With these new elemental punches, it makes Conkeldurr somewhat unpredictable. I'm sure the super majority of people ran Guts before the BW2 move tutors. Now, a legitimate choice has to be made and people will still fear statusing it because they do not want to take the chance of giving it an unnecessary attack boost.
 
Jimera0 said:
Unfortunately, sheer force still affects precious few fighting type moves, meaning Conk's choice of STAB is rather difficult. It can opt for Drain Punch, Mach Punch or Hammer Arm as always, but will take Life Orb damage when using those moves. The Sheer force boosted options are unfortunately limited to Dynamic Punch (lol), Focus Blast (LOL), Rock Smash (LOLOLOLOLOL) Low Sweep and Force Palm, with only the last two being even considerable. However, both are only very slightly more powerful than Drain Punch after Sheer Force, so Drain Punch is probably the better option since the healing will offset recoil.
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Wait, I'm confused, aren't Low Sweep's and Dynamicpunch's effects primary (they always happen)? I may be wrong, but I thought that secondary effects were those had a chance to happen, as opposed to those two. Anyway, you're right, even then none of them is more competitively viable than Drain Punch and/or Mach Punch, Force Palm has 78 BP after the boost but DP makes you heal and is only 3 points weaker (without accounting for STAB)...
 
Ernesto said:
Wait, I'm confused, aren't Low Sweep's and Dynamicpunch's effects primary (they always happen)? I may be wrong, but I thought that secondary effects were those had a chance to happen, as opposed to those two. Anyway, you're right, even then none of them is more competitively viable than Drain Punch and/or Mach Punch, Force Palm has 78 BP after the boost but DP makes you heal and is only 3 points weaker (without accounting for STAB)...
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There's a difference between a primary effect and a secondary effect w/ 100% chance of activation.

The latter is prevented by Sheer Force and blocked by Shield Dust.
 
Yea, about that, I'm not anyone to say if there's a difference or not, but according to Bulbapedia's description of DynamicPunch "DynamicPunch inflicts damage and confuses the target." That means it's the primary effect, though I know the smogon description says something else. Has it been tested actually? Because I think the difference is much more than simple semantics... But could you give me a definition of primary and secondary effect, just to clarify?
 
Ernesto said:
Yea, about that, I'm not anyone to say if there's a difference or not, but according to Bulbapedia's description of DynamicPunch "DynamicPunch inflicts damage and confuses the target." That means it's the primary effect, though I know the smogon description says something else. Has it been tested actually? Because I think the difference is much more than simple semantics... But could you give me a definition of primary and secondary effect, just to clarify?
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The description isn't meant to be a precise definition, just to give you an idea of how it works.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Sheer_Force_(ability) Explains the difference, and also gives a full list of affected moves.
 
Thank you, although I still don't have it clear the difference between primary and secondary effects. I always thought secondary effects to be something that could happen but wasn't certain, as opposed to always happening, I guess I was wrong...
 
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