Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

ClubbingSealClub
Jelliscent is the way to go IMO and this isn't easily trapped cause of burn and gothitelle locked into t-bolt is setup for Kyurem :)
 

Bad Ass

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electrolyte's bulky starmie

cube needs the spin support and this starmie hard counters heatran and keldeo, along with giving the team much needed speed
 
electrolyte's starmie is the best choice for a couple of reasons. It's the best pure counter to both threats we've listed on the other side, it will lure in electric attacks for kyurem-b, and it's a strong special attacker that can force switches, getting in Kyurem-b for free later on.

Another trend I've noticed overtime is that people save stealth rock and spikes til the end so that the other team has trouble getting through it. Starmie early gives us a Spinner for when the other team undoubtedly uses SR and Spikes to slow down Kyurem-B.
 

Reymedy

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Smogon was down for me, I had a message to do but sadly ... :(

So
I don't understand what you got against Slowbro. I mean, I do a little, but I seriously don't understand when you say that Jellicent offers more support ?
Can you explain why, I'm really interested.. I find it a little unfair to claim that
"it's goin to kick us into a 'select a wall for that pokemon' mode"
" I'd choose a pokemon with more support capabilites such as Jellicent"
without any form of explanation.


About the Wall etc stuff. Correct me if I'm calculating wrong. But if I can wall two pokemons with a single one, in the end I will have an unbreakable defensive core of 3 pokemons (2*3=6 I believe), which leaves me 3 pokemons to build an offensive core (6-3=3). So saying that we should not be picking defensive pokemons when they can wall a large part of the opposite team and spread status is not something I understand (moreover Slowbro is likely to wall the incoming Physical sweepers from team 2).

From my point of view, Jellicent can burn when Slowbro can ThunderWave. At the moment Twave is what we almost NEED. Whereas WoW is not far from being useless against the already picked pokemons.
So Slowbro brings more support.
Moreover it can burn aswell with Scald, and Jellicent got one single attacking move.. Surf

Taunt? we all see the speed invested, and Jellicent is not something hard to outspeed. The Taunt is likely to be a totally loss slot. Taunt Heatran is useless because he won't stay in on Jellicent and you better try to deal damage.

So yes, I'm really looking for your explanation on what a slow Taunter, with one single attacking move can bring, with one single low accuracy Status move, especially when he's crippled is annoyed by hazards, thus by switching in and out.
If it's about the spin block, you criticized me for chosing a Spinner before hazards, and now you seem willing to chose a Spin Blocker before a Spinner. I don't think you were fair here too.

On the other hand Slowbro can hit on two sides, get a Burn or a Paralysis, and won't get killed anytime soon with Regenerator. That's some other support skills.

I don't see how you lose momentum by the way, you seem to underestimate a little what can do a Paralysis on most of the pokemons of this Metagame.
I thought that I cleared any doubt on Slowbro's ability to not slow down that much the team. It is not only a wall for all the reasons I said, he can 2HKO both of the picks at the moment and "kill" them with Paralysis, I don't see Jellicent doing the same at all. So in terms of slowing the team, there is no comparison possible.

And I just realised that you did the cleaver post about not chosing a spinner, so I'll use it to criticise Starmie :
"I'm also not a big fan of Starmie either, albeit the idea is correct in my opinion. It is obvious that team 2 is going to eventually use hazards, so saving a spot for a spinner eventually is a good idea- however, I do not think it is so right now. Spinning is a very subjective strategy, as the effectiveness depends on the spinner and the team it faces. Choosing a spinner before the opponent even shows hazards is a bad idea, since there are so many more ways to set hazards then there are to spin them. If we restrict ourselves to Starmie now, this can easily be exploited by team 2, and they could choose a pokemon that is able to set hazards past Starmie (Ferrothorn, for example) That would leave us in a sticky situation. "

I bolded what I did change (it was just Starmie over Claydol and 1 for 2). And I increased the size of the most important part. I totally agree with you by the way, you really did open my eyes on this point, we should not rush for a spinner at all, and we should not rush for a spin blocker aswell isn't it?

For the Gothitelle part, our whole team for now is composed of 2 pokemons. So yes, probably she can, but a simple U-Turn kills her. Moreover Gothitelle comes on Jellicent as easily.
Jellicent can burn?
Well Slowbro can TWave with better accuracy, so we can run anything like Ttar or Scizor able to 0HKO the Gothitelle for sure after.
So yes, this argument about Gothitelle is a little annoying and unfair, because as I said, we can play around it pretty easily depending on Gothitelle set, and Slowbro is not the worst thing we could get trapped giving what he can do.
So submit this Gothitelle set for the next steps if you want, but I'm pretty sure you won't because there will be an easy want to abuse the weaknesses of the set you'll submit.

At least if you were defending the Latias submission, I could understand, but defending Jellicent with your line of logic is not really plausible and fair I believe.


H-C's Latias.
This will be my last complaining post, but I feel like in here it depends a little too much on who posts the set.
I don't think I can be blamed since I voted for someone else's pokemon because basically I have nothing to win in getting a pokemon chosen, the only thing I could lose by not seeing a pokemon I find better being picked is my interest in the project.

I just want to say, why people criticise me when I post because I chose a spinner, then post a spinner right after ?
Why people criticise and just almost totally ignore me when I submit Starmie because it is "weak", then heartfully vote for someone else's Starmie ?

All in all, I find that nobody gave me true reasons that I can understand -like when I submitted Claydol- to dismiss Slowbro. I could understand clearly why people believed Claydol was bad, it was logical, I took lessons from it. Here I just don't get it, and all that occurred was unfair in my opinion.
It's like, getting trapped by Gothitelle.. so what, is that all?

I will look ridiculous and stupid by posting this comment, but I'm really waiting for someone to make me lower myself and understand why nobody give attention to my submission.
Otherwise, I'll just keep looking at the coincidence that every single accepted set has been posted by known contributors, as something really unfortunate and unhealthy for the project (and for the forum overall).
I'm not saying this for my own self, I believe there were also good and relevant sets that have been overlooked when posted by unknown or not respected players. I bet you all know what I'm talking about anyway.

I see this project as a way to improve myself, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying my idea is the best and all. But by giving insufficient or just no reasons to dismiss/ignore a set, I don't feel like I'm improving at all.
I have no attention to be rude to anybody here, and if I was, I apologize. If you consider me as non beneficial to the debate/project, since I'm complaining here, I'll accept this verdict without questionning and not post anything else here.
 

Pocket

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Electrolyte's Starmie.

Spin > Spinblocking, plus Starmie's Speed always comes in handy. Scald > Hydro Pump, though ;/
 
Melee Mewtwo
Counter Heatran+Keldeo and put offensive pressure on team 2 and providing Thunder Wave support? Yes please.
 

Electrolyte

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Remedy as I have a feeling you're pointing at me with that, I would like to clear up some confusion regarding all that choosing-a-spinner before hazards thing.

For one, Team 2 currently does not really have too much of a problem with hazards anyway. It'll be annoying to have layers upon us, but we could easily add a Taunter to make the idea less intimidating, or we can just choose pokemon that don't mind hazards much or can put forth enough offense to prevent the opponent from ever setting them in the first place. However, now that we are voting for team 1, who already has an SR weak pokemon, having a spinner is nice, since that's one less threat we have to worry about.

However, even that is besides my main point. Spinning is something makes Starmie a great addition- but it is far from the main reason why I think it fits in the first place. Claydol, on the other hand, really didn't seem as if it could do much besides spread some hazards and spin. Starmie's range of aid was much wider- as it's speed and coverage let it handle many threats Kyu-B doesn't like- where as Claydol and Heatran's synergy is just ehh at best. Of course, I am not bashing your post, but merely providing an explanation as to why previously the idea of a spinner was so frowned upon but suddenly it's wanted like gold.
 
Melee Mewtwo

It's getting pretty close so I'll go ahead and vote for myself.

I'm not a big fan of Starmie. The only real threat it pressure it puts on team 2's picks is spinning. If team 2 doesn't put a big emphasis on keeping hazards down or uses something that can easily set them up, then Starmie becomes a free switch-in for the likes of Latios and Hydreigon who can fire off super powered Draco Meteors. Even Offensive Dragonite can take advantage of Starmie to set up a DD. Even if hazards do become important, Sableye can easily spin block this Starmie while providing every useful priority Taunt + WoW or even going for a sweep with CM. One SR weak mon doesn't exactly mean Rapid Spin is required (plus it has giant bulk and Roost).

4 SpA Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 91-108 (28.17 - 33.43%) -- 0.02% chance to 3HKO

4 SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 64-76 (19.81 - 23.52%) -- possible 5HKO

4 SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Sableye: 139-165 (45.72 - 54.27%) -- 3.13% chance to 2HKO

(Sableye's priority Recover lets it PP stall out Hydro Pump while fishing for a miss)

4 SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 71-84 (21.77 - 25.76%) -- possible 4HKO

4 SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 60-71 (19.86 - 23.5%) -- possible 5HKO
 

ginganinja

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This will be my last complaining post, but I feel like in here it depends a little too much on who posts the set.
I don't think I can be blamed since I voted for someone else's pokemon because basically I have nothing to win in getting a pokemon chosen, the only thing I could lose by not seeing a pokemon I find better being picked is my interest in the project.

I just want to say, why people criticise me when I post because I chose a spinner, then post a spinner right after ?
Why people criticise and just almost totally ignore me when I submit Starmie because it is "weak", then heartfully vote for someone else's Starmie ?

All in all, I find that nobody gave me true reasons that I can understand -like when I submitted Claydol- to dismiss Slowbro. I could understand clearly why people believed Claydol was bad, it was logical, I took lessons from it. Here I just don't get it, and all that occurred was unfair in my opinion.
It's like, getting trapped by Gothitelle.. so what, is that all?

I will look ridiculous and stupid by posting this comment, but I'm really waiting for someone to make me lower myself and understand why nobody give attention to my submission.
Otherwise, I'll just keep looking at the coincidence that every single accepted set has been posted by known contributors, as something really unfortunate and unhealthy for the project (and for the forum overall).
I'm not saying this for my own self, I believe there were also good and relevant sets that have been overlooked when posted by unknown or not respected players. I bet you all know what I'm talking about anyway.

I see this project as a way to improve myself, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying my idea is the best and all. But by giving insufficient or just no reasons to dismiss/ignore a set, I don't feel like I'm improving at all.
I have no attention to be rude to anybody here, and if I was, I apologize. If you consider me as non beneficial to the debate/project, since I'm complaining here, I'll accept this verdict without questionning and not post anything else here.
People didn't like your Claydol suggestion because it was a) easy to take advantage of and beat and b) offensively lacking. Of particular concern was Gengar totally and utterly walling your Claydol suggestion (iirc it was Spin / SR / Toxic / EQ) which was also fairly threatening to Heatran via Focus Blast, and getting a free Substitute on Claydol which have made it difficult to handle.

Starmie is different, it walls the 2 members of Team #2, it spins away the Stealth Rock that Team #2 will eventually use to try and wear down Kyurem-B, it hits fairly hard with base 100 SpA, its fast and its tricky to spinblock.

No-one thinks your Slowbro suggestion is bad, people just prefer Starmie for its spinning of SR which Team #2 will eventually use. Its a case of personal preference (in this case) which is why people are voting for Starmie and not Slowbro. Don't feel disheartened by your pokemon not getting chosen, last time ganj4lF submitted a pokemon every single round for both teams, and he only got support for his final nomination of the challenge. If you keep submitting good ideas, people start to respect you, and you might get support for a future nomination. Complaining about how your nomination didn't get picked however, will prolly not earn you much support.

Have a nice day
 

ganj4lF

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Voting is closed! Here's the tally till now:


So it seems that we have a tie. I counted the votes twice, to avoid mistakes, both Rotom-W and Starmie are tied with 7 votes. I gave the voters some additional hours to break this tie, but noone showed up and the tie is still there. Guess I'll need to break it myself.

So I'm going to cast my vote and support Melee Mewtwo's Rotom-W. While Starmie is awesome typing-wise, and to get rid of hazards, I don't think Kyurem is incredibly crippled by those: having Roost and a huge bulk, it can easily switch in and regain the lost health. Starmie's attacking prowess is underwhelming, and I feel that's easily exploited (even with the addition of Scald, many things just don't care). Also, picking a Spinner so early may be a tactical disadvantage: we're investing many resources (a teamslot) on something we might not even need (for example, if they only pick SR and not Spikes, Kyurem's arguably OK without Spin support, at least in my opinion; and they can probably do such a choice if they see us taking a Spinner). By picking Rotom we get a generally very useful pokemon that does not perfectly counter the enemy team so far, but brings lots of usefulness in Thunder Wave, Volt Switch, and much more punch behind its attacks.

So, welcome the new addition of Team 1!


Melee Mewtwo's Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Def / 148 SAtk
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Pain Split
- Thunder Wave

We're now going to discuss the third pokemon of Team 1. As usual, the discussion will last 72 hours at least. I'd like to remember to everyone to keep a calm and polite tone while discussing, it'll be more enjoyable for all of us.

Go!
 

Heatran @ Air Balloon
252SPA/4SPD/252Spe
Nature:Modest
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power
-Hidden Power Grass
-Stealth Rock

This Heatran is able to come in and threaten one of team 2's mons out, setting SR up in the process. That mon will most likely be team 2's Heatran, as this Heatran set, with Air Balloon intact, walls their Heatran set, which can only Roar us out at best while we deal hefty amounts of damage to it with Earth Power or break a sub.

HP Grass is there so that we can use it if we predict a Keldeo switch in (though it might not do much, so double switching into Rotom might be better).

And, as we all know, Heatran synergises extremely well with Rotom and Cube, setting up hazards and dealing with mons that they don't like, such as Dragons and Grass. Finally, Rotom can take ground type attacks should Heatran's Air Balloon pop.

P.S. Heatran might have a hard time dealing with Dragons without Dragon Pulse.
 
I'd like to reccomend Toxicroak.

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
252 Atk, 244 hp, 12 def
Adamant Nature
-Drain Punch
-Sucker Punch
-Substitute
-Bulk Up

It can take on both Heatran (with it's powerful fighting attacks) and Keldeo (sporting a water immunity and fighting resist).

It offers useful resists for both Kyurem-B (fighting and rock) and Rotom-W (Grass). Rotom-W also covers Toxicroak's weakness to ground, fire, and flying.

It can't outspeed Heatran without going Jolly and running max speed, but Heatran can't directly switch in on toxicroak either.
A spread of Jolly and 192 speed is certainly viable as well, which would let Toxicroak Bulk up on the switch to OHKO heatran with a +1 drain punch.

Calcs:
252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 289-343 (89.19 - 105.86%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 165-196 (51.08 - 60.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 108-128 (29.34 - 34.78%) -- possible 4HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Toxicroak: 96-114 (26.08 - 30.97%) -- possible 4HKO
 

Breloom @ Focus Sash
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Swords Dance

One of the best leads with spore, sword dance and mach punch. Further, with volt switch there are plenty of opportunities to bring in Breloom safely while protecting it's sash. It's likely we'll need a spinner, but that was probably the case anyways with Kyrum-B. It can even beat Heatran as it can live a fireblast with sash and proceed to spore sword dance and mach punch. It's likely that the Evs should be tweaked as it doesn't outspeed, but since it uses sash, having extra bulk is likely of little significance and it gives it a chance to out speed potential counters.
 
@Sacaen: Your Toxicroak gets outsped and OHKOed by Heatran's Fire Blast after Rocks. This means that it is necessary to get have a sub up, to prevent getting OHKOed. However, T2 might keep up offensive pressure or have fast Taunters to stop us from getting a in a sub.
 
Hmmm, Latios or Lando. Latios has an easy time switching in, is naturally fast, and hits like a truck. On the other hand, RP Lando only has three viable counters and one is already hard countered by Rotom-W who also takes care of the Ice Shard revenge killers. Offensive Ferrothorn can't come in on Lando but HP Fire LO Latios doesn't really mind whatever a Ferrothorn tries to do. Latios is pursuit trapable but Scizor and Tyranitar are going to need a Scarf to do that while Weavile can only come in after a kill. I guess Bisharp could be a problem but he can't do much in general. Hmm, well Latios has more switch-in opportunities and is virtually un-counterable without going fully defensive whereas Lando has to worry about Latias and Heracross coming in and raising hell.


Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Fire]

What does this set do? Latios is a fast and super powerful Dragon. Draco Meteor is the main STAB and 2HKOs almost everything that doesn't resist it. Surf takes care of team 2's Heatran who might otherwise try to switch-in on DM. HP Fire is used over Psyshock since the later doesn't get any really important OHKOs and, without the former, offensive Ferrothorn would be able to easily switch-in and set up Spikes while threatening to OHKO switch-ins. Roost is to heal off LO damage as well as anything else that may prevent Latios from staying in tip top condition. LO lets it switch between moves so that it doesn't get locked into a weak HP Fire or have to rely much on prediction to kill its switch-ins.

How can this set help the team? Since Rotom-W already counters Team 2's picks we have a free slot. Latios is a massive powerhouse with little viable counters in this project. It also has an easy time switching into Heatran and Keldeo (as long as it dodges any HP Ice) while threatening to KO them and almost any switch-in. Levitate and lack of SR weakness helps to dilute the hazards weakness brought to the team by Kyurem-B.

What can the other team do in response to this set? There isn't a sure fire answer Team 2 can use to deal with Latios without having to go the defensive route. SubPetaya Empoleon is the only offensive option avaiable but even he can't switch into a full power DM more than once. They can try to use prediction or a revenge kill to bring a Pursuit trapper in but that isn't reliable.

What potential additions can be made to deal with these responses? Defensive mons tend to rely on Status to put pressure on the opposing team. Kyurem and Rotom-W don't really mind T-Wave much. Laitos and Rotom-W don't suffer the attack drop from burn. Toxic can be blocked by the addition of a steel type. Scizor is an excellent choice for this role as it pairs excellently with Rotom-W to form a powerful Volt-Turn core that is a pain for defensive teams to deal with in general. SubPetaya Empoleon is already countered by Rotom-W. Nothing can be done about a trapper being successfully brought in safely, but Latios isn't used to counter anything on Team 2 so losing it isn't going to leave a hole defensively.
 
Landorus


Landorus
252 special attack 252 speed 4hp timid
Earth power
Hidden power ice
Substitute
Focus blast
Life orb
Sheer force
This Landorus counters a lot of pokes. Unless they want to lose all their momentum and choose blissey/chansey this poke can, with a sub up, proceed to do a load to a load of their pokes. This poke also resists fighting which is good and can do a lot with earth power to them. I promise I didn't copy melee mewtwo's idea I was gonna post it anyway but took to long.
 

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