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Regarding hazards: Stealth Rock will be assumed to be on both sides of the field unless is a part of your core. This is done to replicate normal battle conditions as closely as possible. So if you want to use something really stealth rock weak then carrying a spinner is probably a good idea.
Another thing: If your core does not obviously counter the Round One core, please post explaining how your core wins.
Saying "it comes in on Drain Punch" is not a counter if Payback OHKO's you. Look at the Duo Destruction thread in LC or No Luck Involved's post for a solid post and explanation.
Also can we clarify a point about hazards and general field conditions? Normally this works better when no hazards at all are assumed, but since NLI brought but that Mothim may need a spinner, it raises the point. Since no hazards are assumed on the side of the core, it only makes sense to do so for the other core as well. Checks and Counters become far too situational otherwise. Obviously using stuff like Focus Sash is still pointless, but assuming Stealth Rock cuts down the effectiveness of so many Pokemon.
As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't assume one way or the other. In any given instance, SR will either be there or not based on the way the game has gone thus far (maybe one player Taunted Golem or something idk, or maybe it got spun away later in the match). An ideal counter/counters would be able to reliably handle these Pokemon with or without the presence of SR, but I think that it shouldn't be held against said Pokemon (or at least, not much) if they are weak to SR since it's equally likely that SR won't be up.
edit: Raseri beat me to posting but whatever. I still think it shouldn't be held against the counters since SR is not guaranteed to be up at all.
As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't assume one way or the other. In any given instance, SR will either be there or not based on the way the game has gone thus far (maybe one player Taunted Golem or something idk, or maybe it got spun away later in the match). An ideal counter/counters would be able to reliably handle these Pokemon with or without the presence of SR, but I think that it shouldn't be held against said Pokemon (or at least, not much) if they are weak to SR since it's equally likely that SR won't be up.
With the amount or reliable Stealth Rock laying Pokemon in NU I believe that it is safe to assume that both teams are going to be able to get them up the majority of the time. If the Stealth Rocks got spun away it is safe to assume that you have a Spinner on your team, and that could be a part of the core that you post. If you have an otherwise solid counter that needs hazards removed, why not add a spinner? It isn't a hard counter if it loses with hazards down. You may receive partial credit but it wouldn't be fair to give full points to a single pokemon that needs a partner to counter the core posted. Just like I will assume that Stealth Rock is on the counters side unless I use a spinner in the group.
I will end this round sometime on Sunday and post a new one. Good luck to all! And may the best counter win.
Well to be fair, Stealth Rock is not part of this particular core, so if we assume that core has Stealth Rock surely there should be a third Pokemon added to it?
I realise I am extending the point but at what point do we stop focusing on the core and end up talking about the entire team instead? As far as I'm concerned, if a core doesn't have Stealth Rock then why would a spinner be needed to help counter said core? They aren't setting the hazards, their teammates are, just as the opposing cores team is spinning them away.
Basically, are we looking at this in a core vs core situation or a whole real game situation? The latter makes little sense, as then stuff like prior damage and whole prediction arguments become factors.
I think it's a balance of the two extremes. I think it's reasonable (and good) to assume that the core is used in a real battle scenario and that the potential counter(s) would have to switch in on it. This can extend to SR being on the field imo but doesn't have to. But where it stops is where other Pokemon outside of the core are drafted in to take hits.
It wouldn't be very informative if this exercise was done in a vacuum with both core and counter starting from scratch from Turn 1, I think it needs to be grounded somewhat in reality, i.e. assume Gurdurr comes in for free somehow (e.g. against Metang setting SR) - what can you do now? Since Gurdurr and Duosion compliment each other so well, what can counter both if they have gotten a free switch and prevent them supporting each other? At least that's my interpretation of the exercise.
For the record, if your core requires assumptions, it won't get points. What I mean by that is that if your core requires your team to have a spinner, then you need to include a spinner as one of the Pokemon in your core. If you post Drilbur, you would be expected to pair it with Hippopotas as well (unless Drilbur countered the core outside of sand). Stealth Rock and Spikes can be used with your calculations, but if your core can't do it without Stealth Rock and Spikes then it WILL be called into question.
I believe that a similar situation arises here. If you need to assume things for your core to work then it is not very effective. Stealth Rock can be found on nearly 100% of teams so it is almost guaranteed for it to be on the field. Besides if I say that there is no Stealth Rock what is stopping people from just posting a whole bunch of really bad Focus Sash mons?
If you really want to be at 100% then run a spinner? If I want to use Vespiquen + Articuno(a terrible core I know) I would have to assume you guys set up Stealth Rock.
So from now on: Stealth Rock is assumed on both sides unless either side runs a Rapid Spinner / Magic Bounce Natu. Other than that we will assume that no other prior damage has been done to any Pokemon used in the exercise.
It can switch into Gurdurr very easily, even if you assume SR is on your side of the field: 252 Atk Gurdurr (+Atk) Payback vs 252 HP/0 Def Pelipper: 16.05% - 19.14% (6-7 hits to KO)
Now, what remains is you Rain Dance up, and Hurricane for an easy OHKO on Gurdurr. Rain + LO boosted Hydro Pump, albeit inaccurate, threatens a near OHKO on Duosion. It can't exactly switch into Duosion (it can roost stall, but it can calm mind and it starts getting nasty) You have Hurricane confusion on your side though, and Hurricane also happens to hit hard enough to force repeated recovers until it confuses or gets criticalled--but it's not exactly a reliable 1 vs. 1 against Duosion.
If that disqualifies it as a proper counter for both, then:
Altaria @ Life Orb
192 HP / 252 SpA / 64 Spe
Nature: Modest
Trait: Natural Cure
- Roost
- Draco Meteor
- Power Swap
- Dragon Pulse Perish Song
Duosion vs Altaria:
252 SpAtk Life Orb Altaria (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 252 HP/0 +1 SpDef Duosion: 65.57% - 77.25% (2 hits to KO)--high chance of 2HKO even with the Special Attack Drop
0 SpAtk Duosion Psyshock vs 192 HP/0 Def Altaria: 33.63% - 39.82% (3 hits to KO)--you can weaken it significantly with Power Swap
Gurdurr vs. Altaria:
252 SpAtk Life Orb Altaria (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 252 HP/0 +1 SpDef Gurdurr: 67.65% - 79.41% (2 hits to KO)-- guaranteed 2HKO with SpA Drop
252 Atk Gurdurr (+Atk) Payback vs 192 HP/0 Def Altaria: 16.52% - 19.76% (6-7 hits to KO)-- Payback on the switch, but hurts a lot more when it's not on the switch: still, manageable with Roost.
It always avoids 2HKO with rocks, nearly always 2HKOes, negates setup with Power Swap (and can use the special attack boost for itself). Roost can heal any damage from this duo, and you outspeed them all. DPulse is there to discount any PP arguments.
Well Close Combat also has 8 PP and people never think about that running out of PP, so w/e. Running LO on a single attacking move set with 8 pp is stupid, but some people are using niche counters anyways so w/e.
This with Dragon Pulse > Perish Song is a legit set, though.
No. The calc you're giving is for a +0 Payback from a Gurdurr with 0 Attack EVs and a neutral nature, which is not what's in the OP. Misdreavus is dominated by Gurdurr, especially if they predict the Taunt and just 2HKO with Payback as soon as you switch in.
Simple, come in on anything (Duosion only does 0SpAtk Duosion (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/0Def Jumpluff (Neutral): 39% - 46% (141 - 166 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.) then put either Duosion or Gurdurr to sleep. Swords Dance on the next turn, then smash face with Acrobatics. The only problems it runs into are if Sleep Powder misses or they wake up turn one. Other than that, Jumpluff strong.
Okay, basically, Torterra does not fuck around. This set can switch into both Gurdurr/Duosion regardless of what order they are in or what they do and beat both of them consecutively. First a few calcs to show how it does unboosted:
0SpAtk Duosion (Neutral) Hidden Power (Bug) vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Torterra (Neutral): 35% - 42% (140 - 166 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Note that those calculations stay the same if both Torterra and Gurdurr/Duosion have the same amount of boosts (only matters for +6 really since you'll be busy boosting most of the time).
So assuming Torterra faces off against Duosion first. There are 2 possible outcomes for the turn in which Torterra switches in:
1) Duosion uses Calm Mind. Probably the better of the 2 options for Duosion since it HAS to boost to have a chance of beating Torterra at all.
2) Duosion uses Hidden Power. It gets some direct damage on Torterra which, however, is negligible since Torterra can then use Amnesia on the next turn and heal it off easily.
Once Torterra is in it should always use its attacks in this row against Duosion: Amnesia, Amnesia, Amnesia, Curse. After that, it depends on what Duosion does:
- If it used Calm Mind while you came in, then twice more during Amnesia and then used Psyshock on the 3rd Amnesia, use Synthesis. You just need a second Curse then (so you can 2HKO Duosion with Earthquake doing 50% - 59%) while staying high on health so you can at least tank one attack from Gurdurr. Gurdurr can then be killed the way I describe later on.
Log:
Start of turn 1
lose1 called Duosion back!
lose1 sent out Torterra!
Duosion used Calm Mind!
Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Start of turn 2
Lose1's Torterra used Amnesia!
Lose1's Torterra's Sp. Def. sharply rose!
Duosion used Calm Mind!
Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Start of turn 3
Lose1's Torterra used Amnesia!
Lose1's Torterra's Sp. Def. sharply rose!
Duosion used Calm Mind!
Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Start of turn 4
Lose1's Torterra used Amnesia!
Lose1's Torterra's Sp. Def. sharply rose!
Duosion used Psyshock!
Lose1's Torterra lost 46% of its health!
Lose1's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 5
Lose1's Torterra used Curse!
Lose1's Torterra's Attack rose!
Lose1's Torterra's Defense rose!
Lose1's Torterra's Speed fell!
Duosion used Psyshock!
Lose1's Torterra lost 32% of its health!
Lose1's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 6
Lose1's Torterra used Synthesis!
Lose1's Torterra regained health!
Duosion used Calm Mind!
Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Lose1's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 7
Lose1's Torterra used Curse!
Lose1's Torterra's Attack rose!
Lose1's Torterra's Defense rose!
Lose1's Torterra's Speed fell!
Duosion used Calm Mind!
Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Lose1's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 8
Duosion used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
Lose1's Torterra lost 31% of its health!
Lose1's Torterra used Earthquake!
Duosion lost 193 HP! (57% of its health)
Lose1's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 9
Duosion used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
Lose1's Torterra lost 35% of its health!
Lose1's Torterra used Earthquake!
Duosion lost 141 HP! (42% of its health)
Duosion fainted!
Lose1's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
lose2 sent out Gurdurr!
At this point Torterra has enough health to survive anything Gurdurr throws at it and heal up, winning the 1 on 1 battle against it easily.
- If Duosion Calm Minds one more time in that following example (so once as you come in and then three times while you Amnesia), then you can Curse twice instead of once. Psyshock won't deal enough damage, and Torterra outspeeds Duosion even after a Curse so Psyshock's damage output will soon diminish.
Together with the Calc before, that's 63% max after Leftovers. You'll get hit for 32% max again next turn and can thus comfortably heal up and proceed to beat Duosion the same way as outlined above.
Start of turn 1
lose1 called Duosion back!
lose1 sent out Torterra!
Duosion used Calm Mind!
Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Start of turn 2
Lose1's Torterra used Amnesia!
Lose1's Torterra's Sp. Def. sharply rose!
Duosion used Calm Mind!
Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Start of turn 3
Lose1's Torterra used Amnesia!
Lose1's Torterra's Sp. Def. sharply rose!
Duosion used Calm Mind!
Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Start of turn 4
Lose1's Torterra used Amnesia!
Lose1's Torterra's Sp. Def. sharply rose!
Duosion used Calm Mind!
Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Start of turn 5
Lose1's Torterra used Curse!
Lose1's Torterra's Attack rose!
Lose1's Torterra's Defense rose!
Lose1's Torterra's Speed fell!
Duosion used Psyshock!
Lose1's Torterra lost 42% of its health!
Lose1's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 6
Lose1's Torterra used Curse!
Lose1's Torterra's Attack rose!
Lose1's Torterra's Defense rose!
Lose1's Torterra's Speed fell!
Duosion used Psyshock!
Lose1's Torterra lost 28% of its health!
Lose1's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 7
Duosion used Psyshock!
Lose1's Torterra lost 31% of its health!
Lose1's Torterra used Synthesis!
Lose1's Torterra regained health!
Lose1's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 8
Duosion used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
Lose1's Torterra lost 29% of its health!
Lose1's Torterra used Synthesis!
Lose1's Torterra regained health!
Lose1's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 9
Duosion used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
Lose1's Torterra lost 30% of its health!
Lose1's Torterra used Earthquake!
Duosion lost 193 HP! (57% of its health)
Lose1's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 10
Duosion used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
Lose1's Torterra lost 27% of its health!
Lose1's Torterra used Earthquake!
Duosion lost 141 HP! (42% of its health)
Duosion fainted!
Again, Torterra can easily survive Gurdurr's attacks at this point and win.
- Duosion can Calm Mind all the way to +6 to circumvent the Amnesia boosts and 3HKO with Hidden Power [Bug] thanks to being faster. This would be a good option if Torterra didn't just need 2 Curses to kill Duosion. So Duosion uses Calm Mind as you come in, 3 more times while you Amnesia, 2 more times while you Curse, uses Hidden Power [Bug] twice, is far from a 2HKO, and is 2HKO'd by Earthquake in return.
Start of turn 1
lose2 called Duosion back!
lose2 sent out Torterra!
Duosion used Calm Mind!
Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Start of turn 2
Lose2's Torterra used Amnesia!
Lose2's Torterra's Sp. Def. sharply rose!
Duosion used Calm Mind!
Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Start of turn 3
Lose2's Torterra used Amnesia!
Lose2's Torterra's Sp. Def. sharply rose!
Duosion used Calm Mind!
Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Start of turn 4
Lose2's Torterra used Amnesia!
Lose2's Torterra's Sp. Def. sharply rose!
Duosion used Calm Mind!
Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Start of turn 5
Lose2's Torterra used Curse!
Lose2's Torterra's Attack rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Defense rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Speed fell!
Duosion used Calm Mind!
Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Start of turn 6
Lose2's Torterra used Curse!
Lose2's Torterra's Attack rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Defense rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Speed fell!
Duosion used Calm Mind!
Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Start of turn 7
Duosion used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Torterra lost 38% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra used Earthquake!
Duosion lost 187 HP! (55% of its health)
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 8
Duosion used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Torterra lost 40% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra used Earthquake!
Duosion lost 147 HP! (44% of its health)
Duosion fainted!
Again, far too much health for Gurdurr to deal in one blow before Torterra can heal up.
Note that Duosion also loses if it only uses Calm Mind 5 times instead of 6 thanks to only doing 31%-37%, which means Torterra can heal it off easily.
All other actions taken by Duosion are even worse than the ones outlined above so Duosion always loses, which brings us to Gurdurr.
Gurdurr can't do much at all except for one thing: Bulk Up until it is at +6 and try to weaken Torterra to the point where Duosion can finish it off with Hidden Power [Bug] (35% or below for a guaranteed kill).
Torterra also has no problem coming in on Gurdurr, thanks to unboosted Drain Punch only dealing 20%-24%, which means Torterra can then start cursing up. Hence, Gurdurrs best bet is boosting itself up to +6, then hitting +5 Torterra with its Drain Punch once which does:
After that turn, Torterra will be at +6 as well, which means Drain Punch does 20%-24% while Torterra does 24%-28% back with Earthquake. Gurdurr's downfall is the lack of Leftovers and reliable recovery; Drain Punch healing is not enough to offset the damage done by Torterra's barrage of Earthquakes. Hence, Torterra only has one goal here: Kill Gurdurr with at least 43% of its health to spare so it can survive one hit from Duosion and OHKO it:
which will happen eventually if Torterra always uses Synthesis when an attack by Gurdurr puts it below the magical 43% including Leftovers (in case Torterra lands a crit). If nothing else, it just has to wait for Gurdurr to use up all 16 Drain Punch PP before being safe from everything it can do.
Log:
Start of turn 1
lose2 called Gurdurr back!
lose2 sent out Torterra!
Gurdurr used Bulk Up!
Gurdurr's Attack rose!
Gurdurr's Defense rose!
Start of turn 2
Lose2's Torterra used Curse!
Lose2's Torterra's Attack rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Defense rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Speed fell!
Gurdurr used Bulk Up!
Gurdurr's Attack rose!
Gurdurr's Defense rose!
Start of turn 3
Gurdurr used Bulk Up!
Gurdurr's Attack rose!
Gurdurr's Defense rose!
Lose2's Torterra used Curse!
Lose2's Torterra's Attack rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Defense rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Speed fell!
Start of turn 4
Gurdurr used Bulk Up!
Gurdurr's Attack rose!
Gurdurr's Defense rose!
Lose2's Torterra used Curse!
Lose2's Torterra's Attack rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Defense rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Speed fell!
Start of turn 5
Gurdurr used Bulk Up!
Gurdurr's Attack rose!
Gurdurr's Defense rose!
Lose2's Torterra used Curse!
Lose2's Torterra's Attack rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Defense rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Speed fell!
Start of turn 6
Gurdurr used Bulk Up!
Gurdurr's Attack rose!
Gurdurr's Defense rose!
Lose2's Torterra used Curse!
Lose2's Torterra's Attack rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Defense rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Speed fell!
Start of turn 7
Gurdurr used Drain Punch!
Lose2's Torterra lost 24% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra had its energy drained!
Lose2's Torterra used Curse!
Lose2's Torterra's Attack rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Defense rose!
Lose2's Torterra's Speed fell!
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 8
Gurdurr used Drain Punch!
Lose2's Torterra lost 20% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra had its energy drained!
Lose2's Torterra used Earthquake!
Gurdurr lost 97 HP! (25% of its health)
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 9
Gurdurr used Drain Punch!
Lose2's Torterra lost 22% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra had its energy drained!
Lose2's Torterra used Earthquake!
Gurdurr lost 100 HP! (26% of its health)
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 10
Gurdurr used Drain Punch!
Lose2's Torterra lost 22% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra had its energy drained!
Lose2's Torterra used Synthesis!
Lose2's Torterra regained health!
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 11
Gurdurr used Drain Punch!
Lose2's Torterra lost 22% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra had its energy drained!
Lose2's Torterra used Earthquake!
Gurdurr lost 94 HP! (25% of its health)
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 12
Gurdurr used Drain Punch!
Lose2's Torterra lost 20% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra had its energy drained!
Lose2's Torterra used Earthquake!
Gurdurr lost 91 HP! (24% of its health)
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 13
Gurdurr used Drain Punch!
Lose2's Torterra lost 21% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra had its energy drained!
Lose2's Torterra used Synthesis!
Lose2's Torterra regained health!
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 14
Gurdurr used Drain Punch!
Lose2's Torterra lost 21% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra had its energy drained!
Lose2's Torterra used Earthquake!
Gurdurr lost 90 HP! (24% of its health)
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 15
Gurdurr used Drain Punch!
Lose2's Torterra lost 22% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra had its energy drained!
Lose2's Torterra used Earthquake!
Gurdurr lost 105 HP! (28% of its health)
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 16
Gurdurr used Drain Punch!
Lose2's Torterra lost 22% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra had its energy drained!
Lose2's Torterra used Synthesis!
Lose2's Torterra regained health!
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 17
Gurdurr used Drain Punch!
Lose2's Torterra lost 24% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra had its energy drained!
Lose2's Torterra used Earthquake!
Gurdurr lost 102 HP! (27% of its health)
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 18
Gurdurr used Drain Punch!
Lose2's Torterra lost 20% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra had its energy drained!
Lose2's Torterra used Earthquake!
Gurdurr lost 96 HP! (25% of its health)
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 19
Gurdurr used Drain Punch!
Lose2's Torterra lost 23% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra had its energy drained!
Lose2's Torterra used Synthesis!
Lose2's Torterra regained health!
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 20
Gurdurr used Drain Punch!
Lose2's Torterra lost 20% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra had its energy drained!
Lose2's Torterra used Earthquake!
Gurdurr lost 94 HP! (25% of its health)
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 21
Gurdurr used Drain Punch!
Lose2's Torterra lost 22% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra had its energy drained!
Lose2's Torterra used Earthquake!
A critical hit!
Gurdurr lost 69 HP! (18% of its health)
Gurdurr fainted!
Lose2's Torterra restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
lose1 sent out Duosion!
Start of turn 22
Duosion used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Torterra lost 40% of its health!
Lose2's Torterra used Earthquake!
Duosion lost 334 HP! (100% of its health)
Duosion fainted!
Note that Stealth Rock, in all cases, does not make a difference thanks to its boosting moves forcing Duosion/Gurdurr to boost as well -> Leftovers negates it.
Also note that Shell Armor prevents Critical hits, which means that there is actually no way for Torterra to lose if it follows the strategies outlined above.
Tl;dr: Torterra counters the core because it's a fucking boss.
Togetic (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Wish
- Encore
- Protect
- Air Cutter
Come in on any move that Duosion or Gurdurr use and Encore it. This ensures that they will never be able to boost up and kill you. The extra speed EV's help you outspeed Gurdurr. Try not to Encore Recover on Duosion since it could turn into an annoying stallfest, although you will still win since you can PP stall it. Air Cutter is preferred over Tri Attack due to higher PP since in the case that you Encore Duosion's Calm Mind while beat down Gurdurr even faster. Wish is used over Roost since Roosting on a Gurdurr Drain Punch makes it super effective against you.
252 Atk Gurdurr (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 248 HP/212 Def Eviolite Togetic (+Def) : 21.09% - 24.92%
5 hits to KO
0 SpAtk Duosion Psyshock vs 248 HP/212 Def Eviolite Togetic (+Def) : 18.53% - 22.36%
5-6 hits to KO
0 SpAtk Togekiss Air Cutter vs 252 HP/4 SpDef Eviolite Gurdurr: 43.32% - 51.34%
2-3 hits to KO
0 SpAtk Togekiss Air Cutter vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Eviolite Duosion: 20.96% - 25.15%
4-5 hits to KO
0 SpAtk Togekiss Air Cutter vs 252 HP/0 +6 SpDef Eviolite Duosion: 5.39% - 6.59%
16-19 hits to KO
Even if you Encore Calm Mind, you can still beat Duosion thanks to Air Cutter's 40 PP and no Leftovers recovery. (Edit: Unless you miss like 30 of them)
Vespiquen (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd (take off a Speed IV so Payback only does 50 Base Power)
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Roost
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Attack Order
The Queen herself!
This beast can counter both Duosion and Gurdurr easily without hazards while it can still have an excellent chance to take down either, even with Rocks on the field!
Turn 1
Switch into Vespiquen as Gurdurr Bulk Ups, if it attacks then just proceed to toxic stall it
Turn 2
Gurdurr Bulk Ups while you Toxic it and activate Guts :(
(If it uses Payback, then it will only do less than 30% allowing you to easily Roost stall it.)
Turn 3
Gurdurr uses Payback doing around half damage, you can either Substitute or Roost afterwards, proceed to Toxic stall it to death by Roosting
It takes 6 turns of Toxic damage to kill it. Even after Switching into Stealth Rock, Vespiquen's Leftovers should be able to take it up to around 62%, letting you still Roost stall.
Turn 1
Switch in as it Calm Minds, (if it Psyshocks then it easily loses as you can setup a free Sub on it and Attack Order it)
Turn 2
Spam Attack Order. If it Calm Minds then it will be at +2 and it will be at a maximum of 65% health. If it Psyshocks it will do around 32-38%
Turn 3
Spam Attack Order again.
If having Calm Minded the previous turn, it Calm Minds again, you win by killing it next turn, if it attacks it will do less than half and you will kill it next turn.
If it attacked the previous turn then it has to attack again, doing another 32-38 %, you will kill it next turn, and Lefties will help.
If it switches into Stealth Rock, then Lefties will bring you to 56.25, if it attacks turn 2, then you will be at 24% minimum after Lefties, Roost turn three as it Calm Minds bringing you up to 80%. Then use Attack Order twice to kill it.
If it Calm Minds on turn 2 as you Attack order then you will be at 62%, then Attack Order again as its Psyshock only does 50% max. Attack Order for the kill afterwards.
I think that Duosion can win if it Recover stalls you and Rocks are down although I'm too lazy to calculate how much Recovers it needs, whether Vespiquen can pressure stall it, Lefties recovery as it Recovers, and factoring in Attack Orders high crit chance. So many variables!
All in all, Vespiquen is a pretty solid counter to this core
If anyone can find something wrong then please post!
Yeah the problem is, as you already mentioned, Stealth Rock which is assumed to be up on both sides during this.
I tried to replicate the battle situation, and Vespiquens only way of beating Duosion is through a crit; it can't even pressure stall safely because then Duosion can just snatch a 4th Calm Mind and start doing ~70% per Psyshock.
Vespiquen unfortunately dies whether it heals off the damage from Stealth Rock:
Start of turn 3
lose2 called Torterra back!
lose2 sent out Vespiquen!
Pointed stones dug into Vespiquen!
Vespiquen is exerting its Pressure!
Lose1's Duosion used Calm Mind!
Lose1's Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Lose1's Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Vespiquen restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 4
Vespiquen used Roost!
Vespiquen landed on the ground!
Vespiquen regained health!
Lose1's Duosion used Calm Mind!
Lose1's Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Lose1's Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Start of turn 5
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose1's Duosion lost 38% of its health!
Lose1's Duosion used Calm Mind!
Lose1's Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Lose1's Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Start of turn 6
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose1's Duosion lost 41% of its health!
Lose1's Duosion used Recover!
Lose1's Duosion regained health!
Start of turn 7
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose1's Duosion lost 36% of its health!
Lose1's Duosion used Recover!
Lose1's Duosion regained health!
Start of turn 8
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose1's Duosion lost 38% of its health!
Lose1's Duosion used Psyshock!
Vespiquen lost 201 HP! (58% of its health)
Vespiquen restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 9
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose1's Duosion lost 38% of its health!
Lose1's Duosion used Psyshock!
Vespiquen lost 164 HP! (47% of its health)
Vespiquen fainted!
or just outright attacks:
Start of turn 3
lose1 called Torterra back!
lose1 sent out Vespiquen!
Pointed stones dug into Vespiquen!
Vespiquen is exerting its Pressure!
Lose2's Duosion used Calm Mind!
Lose2's Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Lose2's Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Vespiquen restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 4
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Duosion lost 40% of its health!
Lose2's Duosion used Calm Mind!
Lose2's Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Lose2's Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Vespiquen restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 5
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Duosion lost 35% of its health!
Lose2's Duosion used Recover!
Lose2's Duosion regained health!
Vespiquen restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 6
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Duosion lost 39% of its health!
Lose2's Duosion used Recover!
Lose2's Duosion regained health!
Vespiquen restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 7
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Duosion lost 38% of its health!
Lose2's Duosion used Calm Mind!
Lose2's Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Lose2's Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Vespiquen restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 8
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Duosion lost 41% of its health!
Lose2's Duosion used Recover!
Lose2's Duosion regained health!
Vespiquen restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 9
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Duosion lost 38% of its health!
Lose2's Duosion used Recover!
Lose2's Duosion regained health!
Vespiquen restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 10
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Duosion lost 41% of its health!
Lose2's Duosion used Recover!
Lose2's Duosion regained health!
Vespiquen restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 11
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Duosion lost 36% of its health!
Lose2's Duosion used Recover!
Lose2's Duosion regained health!
Vespiquen restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 12
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Duosion lost 37% of its health!
Lose2's Duosion used Psyshock!
Vespiquen lost 201 HP! (58% of its health)
Vespiquen restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 13
Vespiquen used Roost!
Vespiquen landed on the ground!
Vespiquen regained health!
Lose2's Duosion used Psyshock!
Vespiquen lost 186 HP! (54% of its health)
Vespiquen restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 14
Vespiquen used Roost!
Vespiquen landed on the ground!
Vespiquen regained health!
Lose2's Duosion used Calm Mind!
Lose2's Duosion's Sp. Att. rose!
Lose2's Duosion's Sp. Def. rose!
Vespiquen restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 15
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Duosion lost 38% of its health!
Lose2's Duosion used Recover!
Lose2's Duosion regained health!
Start of turn 16
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Duosion lost 40% of its health!
Lose2's Duosion used Recover!
Lose2's Duosion regained health!
Start of turn 17
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Duosion lost 38% of its health!
Lose2's Duosion used Recover!
Lose2's Duosion regained health!
Start of turn 18
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Duosion lost 38% of its health!
Lose2's Duosion used Psyshock!
Vespiquen lost 243 HP! (70% of its health)
Vespiquen restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Start of turn 19
Vespiquen used Attack Order!
It's super effective!
Lose2's Duosion lost 41% of its health!
Lose2's Duosion used Psyshock!
Vespiquen lost 122 HP! (35% of its health)
Vespiquen fainted!
Note that I just followed the steps you gave me. Vespiquen unfortunately only wins through a Critical Hit against Duosion (which I assume are excluded for this challenge since it'd be ridiculous to counter something through critical hits).
Okay, this guy basically doesn't fuck around and does shit like it's done downtown: no screwing around, but just donking stuff. It comes in on both Duosion and Gurdurr easily, even with Stealth Rocks up, Curses up while erasing their boosts with Clear Smog and proceeds to smash them with Earthquake.
I just maxed Defense because even against something as bulky as Torkoal, Gurdurr hits like a ton of bricks. Unfortunately for him, it's not beating Torkoal any time soon who just uses Curse at will, Clear Smog to erase Bulk Up boosts and then Rests off all the damage.
If Duosion is out, Torkoal easily wins. It can switch into anything with impunity, stat up and erase boosts seeing how the best Duosion can do is Calm Mind on the switch and then Psyshock Torkoal
The only "threat" to Torkoal at this point is Duosion predicting the Rest and using Calm Mind, then Calm Minding against and using Hidden Power twice. However, that also falls short by a long shot:
while using Clear Smog to get rid of the Bulk Up boost. Now Gurdurr will fail to kill the 18% (worst outcome) Torkoal with Drain Punch, who can proceed to Rest and begin the Cursing cycle.
In the end, Gurdurr will fall to the mighty Tortoise as well, thanks to no recovery outside of Drain Punch:
Trait: White Smoke
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Shell Smash
- Rapid Spin
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power Grass
Shell Smash Torkoal beats every single spin-blocker in NU other than Frillish and Lampent - both of whom are uncommon. Sub Disable Haunter is a bit annoying as it out-speeds you but you do 39-46% damage with +2 HP Grass anyways. I choose Torkoal over Cryogonal because 1) Shell Smash Torkoal is cooler and 2) Torkoal doesn't get defeated by Psyshock/Gurdurr. Note that this set is just to act as an offensive spinner for Masquerain; it isn't really a sweeper because it's so damn slow.
Masquerain can easily set-up on Gurdurr / Duosion and BP boosts to Torkoal.
Gurdurr's Payback to Masquerain: 23.03 - 27.4%
Duosion's Psyshock to Masquerain: 29.73 - 34.98%
i'm going to end this now, not many posts the past little bit and I want to get a new round started. It will take me awhile but I'll have comments for everyones counters b y the end of the day
Yamask can easily switch in on both gurdurr and duosion, being immune or resistant to most of their attacks in fact! Yamask can safelt burn gurdurr because it is in fact slower than gurdurr, and mummy removes its guts ability, crippling it. haze removes any boosts either of them have accumulated, and if it can pp stall duosion out of psyshocks, its game over for both Pokemon. a +2 psyshock from duosion doesnt even 2hko yamask, so it can rest safely outside of a critical hit and haze away the boosts on the wakeup turn, with the 8 speed evs it can outspeed duo, while underspeeding gurdurr, the perfect speed for the job. Here are some calcs to prove duosion can handily take on both Pokemon.
286 Atk vs 442 Def & 280 HP (80 Base Power): 57 - 67 (20.36% - 23.93%)
unboosted duosion psyshock
339 Atk vs 442 Def & 280 HP (50 Base Power): 56 - 68 (20.00% - 24.29%)
unboosted gurdurr payback
1356 Atk vs 442 Def & 280 HP (50 Base Power): 220 - 260 (78.57% - 92.86%)
+6 gurdurr payback
1144 Atk vs 442 Def & 280 HP (80 Base Power): 222 - 262 (79.29% - 93.57%)
+6 duosion psyshock
572 Atk vs 442 Def & 280 HP (80 Base Power): 111 - 132 (39.64% - 47.14%)
+2 duosion psyshock (realistically the strongest attack you will take)
Rotom-S can not take on both at once. It can defeat both one on one but not both one after the other. 0 points.
Musharna has the same problem as Rotom-S. It can beat both individually but not both with the same move.
Wartortle can come in on either and spin, haze out their boosts so I'll assume you do that first before sending butterfree in. I can't really follow your train of thought or battle plan exactly so I have to assume your moves. It seems to do fairly well with spin support so I'll give you one point.
Because you used SpDef evs it can possibly lose to Gurdurr if he rolls medium-high damage rolls. It still does well the majority of the time but I can only give you one point
Braviary dies in the process and loses with rocks down. 0 poiints. Volbeat and Samurott loses 1v1 even if volbeat sacs itself to get Rott in for free. 0 points.
If you switch in on Calm Mind from Duosion it loses 1v1 because Psyshock will continually get more powerful and you will be forced to Quiver Dance to keep up. 0 points.
Loses 1v1 to both. 0 points.
It looks good. 2 points
Loses to Gurdurr. 0 points
It works well, assuming Fire Blast doesn't screw you over. 1 point.
It isn't a hard counter, but you have the advantage the entire time and can win 1v1. One point
Pelipper can't beat Duosion. 0 points. Altaria can potentially kill it self against Gurdurr with LO recoil(roosting is risky because Drain Punch puts him out of the KO zone for a second Draco Meteor. It handily beats Duosion and normally beats Gurdurr so one point.
Barring a one turn sleep you win. 2 points.
Yes. Two Points.
You already posted another counter so I decided to count excess ones for half the amount of points. It works though so 1 point for you.
CBB is right. 0 points
Yes again. One point
Torkoal was used in the previous post. 0 points.
It seems to work. One point.
Time for bonus points! No Luck Involved gets one for the most creative set, giving him 3 points for the round! DTC gets -1 points for posting a Pokemon used in the previous post!
Leaderboard:
No Luck Involved - 3
CrashinBoomBang - 3
Django Reinhart - 2
FLCL - 2
Molk - 1
Amarillo - 1
TropiOUs - 1
The Reptile - 1
DTC - -1
If I made a mistake with your set feel free to tell me, I am human and I could have punched a number into a damage calc wrong.
