-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Cross Evolution (now with Viability Rankings!)
- Thread starter dsm77773
- Start date
Yeah. Probably not worth using for the reasons you've listed here, the fact that it decreases the user's Attack stat of the user considerably, and the fact that it only increases HP by a very slight amount whereas most second-stages that could feasibly use its boosts have low HP. You're probably better off with an evolution that increases both Special Defense and other stats significantly like Gardevoir or Gallade, in all honesty.
I suppose its boosts are still worth noting merely for how 'lopsided' they are, though.
Since no one has brought this up...
Delcatty (Misdreavus) @ Leftovers
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Skill Swap
- Mean Look / Substitute / Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Baton Pass / Dazzling Gleam
Base Stats: 80/80/80/105/105/105
Typing: Ghost
Like Normalize Gengar in AAA but with slightly less Speed (and SpA) and one less STAB (although it does get Nasty Plot). It even gets Baton Pass from Delcatty, through which it canpass Mean Look to potentially provide a favorable opportunity for some other team member (for example, Cranidos+Froslass with Rock Polish and/or Swords Dance), or (EDIT: Dang, I didn't know this wasn't a thing anymore...) pass Substitute or Nasty Plot for something that needs a Sub to hide behind or a boost in SpA, respectively. Alternatively, it can run Dazzling Gleam for coverage.
(Reminder that Misdreavus is tied with Tangela for highest BST of any (currently) legal stage 1 cross-evolver.)
Gastly can also abuse this strategy with a stat layout of 50/55/50/120/55/100 (slightly higher SpA but slightly less Speed and much less bulk) and extra Poison typing. However, it does not get Nasty Plot. (Delcatty gives it Calm Mind, though.)
Drifloon is slower (base 90 after cross-evo) and weaker (70 Atk and 80 SpA after cross-evo) than the previous two mentioned and lacks Mean Look, but it packs an extra immunity (Ground) and can go physical with Acrobatics and Knock Off. Not to mention, if it sees fit to inherit Wish from Delcatty, it has the highest HP stat (base 110) for such a role.
There are even more abusers, but they are too slow to make good use of the combination in question. (The next fastest is Small Pumpkaboo with base 76 after cross-evolution.)
The main problem, though, is that +20 across the board is not all that stellar; in fact, it is between quartile 1 and the median for all stats and BST alike.
Also, I feel like creating another (hopefully) helpful resource: a list of type alterations after cross-evolution.
EDIT: Updated to include Diggersby (Ground secondary) and Marill (Water primary).
Delcatty (Misdreavus) @ Leftovers
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Skill Swap
- Mean Look / Substitute / Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Baton Pass / Dazzling Gleam
Base Stats: 80/80/80/105/105/105
Typing: Ghost
Like Normalize Gengar in AAA but with slightly less Speed (and SpA) and one less STAB (although it does get Nasty Plot). It even gets Baton Pass from Delcatty, through which it can
(Reminder that Misdreavus is tied with Tangela for highest BST of any (currently) legal stage 1 cross-evolver.)
Gastly can also abuse this strategy with a stat layout of 50/55/50/120/55/100 (slightly higher SpA but slightly less Speed and much less bulk) and extra Poison typing. However, it does not get Nasty Plot. (Delcatty gives it Calm Mind, though.)
Drifloon is slower (base 90 after cross-evo) and weaker (70 Atk and 80 SpA after cross-evo) than the previous two mentioned and lacks Mean Look, but it packs an extra immunity (Ground) and can go physical with Acrobatics and Knock Off. Not to mention, if it sees fit to inherit Wish from Delcatty, it has the highest HP stat (base 110) for such a role.
There are even more abusers, but they are too slow to make good use of the combination in question. (The next fastest is Small Pumpkaboo with base 76 after cross-evolution.)
The main problem, though, is that +20 across the board is not all that stellar; in fact, it is between quartile 1 and the median for all stats and BST alike.
Also, I feel like creating another (hopefully) helpful resource: a list of type alterations after cross-evolution.
- Stage 1 to Stage 2
- Primary type
-
Synchronize | Inner Focus; +40/+10/+60/+15/+65/+10
-
Natural Cure | Cloud Nine; +30/+30/+30/+30/+30/+30
-
Volt Absorb | Quick Feet; +10/+10/+10/+65/+30/+75
-
Cute Charm | Pixilate; +40/+10/+15/+65/+65/+5
-
Flash Fire | Guts; +10/+75/+10/+50/+45/+10
Flame Body | Gale Wings; +17/+23/+12/+16/+14/+22
-
Leaf Guard | Chlorophyll; +10/+55/+80/+15/0/+40
-
Snow Cloak | Ice Body; +10/+5/+60/+85/+30/+10
-
Synchronize | Magic Bounce; +10/+10/+10/+85/+30/+55
-
Rock Head | Sturdy | Sheer Force; +40/+40/+40/+25/+20/-40
-
Water Absorb | Hydration; +75/+10/+10/+65/+30/+10
Thick Fat |
Huge Power| Sap Sipper; +20/0/+10/0/+10/+20
-
- Secondary type
-
Battle Armor | Sniper | Keen Eye; +30/+40/+20/+30/+20/+30
Hyper Cutter | Shell Armor | Adaptability; +20/+40/+20/+40/+20/+20
Iron Fist | Mold Breaker | Scrappy; +28/+42/+16/+23/+23/+15
Sand Veil | Water Absorb; +20/+30/+20/+30/+20/+20
Chlorophyll | Early Bird | Pickpocket; +30/+30/-10/+30/+10/+30
-
Poison Point | Poison Touch | Adaptability; +15/+15/+30/+37/+63/+14
Levitate; +5/-30/+5/+5/+5/+60
-
Effect Spore | Poison Heal | Technician; 0/+90/+20/+20/0/+35
Blaze | Thick Fat; +25/+30/+10/+25/+10/+10
Blaze | Iron Fist; +20/+20/+8/+20/+8/+20
Blaze | Speed Boost; +15/+25/+20/+15/+10/+10
-
Swarm | Tinted Lens; +30/+65/+5/+65/+5/+30
Speed Boost | Infiltrator; +30/+45/-45/+20/+20/+120
Hustle | Serene Grace | Super Luck; +20/+20/+20/+40/+40/+20
Intimidate | Unnerve; +30/+30/+30/+30/+30/-5
-
Snow Cloak | Cursed Body; +20/+30/+20/+30/+20/+60
-
Anticipation | Overcoat; +20/+30/+40/+50/+60/0
-
Anticipation | Overcoat; +20/+50/+60/+30/+40/0
Pickup | Cheek Pouch |
Huge Power; +47/+20/+39/+18/+41/+21
Sticky Hold | Storm Drain | Sand Force; +35/+35/+20/+35/+20/+5
Torrent | Damp; +20/+15/+20/+10/+20/+10
Swift Swim | Hydration | Water Absorb; +25/+15/+15/+15/+15/+5
-
Shell Armor | Skill Link | Overcoat; +20/+30/+80/+40/+20/+30
Thick Fat | Hydration | Ice Body; +25/+25/+25/+25/+25/+25
-
Illuminate | Natural Cure | Analytic; +30/+30/+30/+30/+30/+30
-
Magma Armor | Flame Body | Weak Armor; +10/+10/+80/+10/+40/+10
-
Steadfast | Inner Focus | Justified; +30/+40/+30/+80/+30/+30
Anticipation | Overcoat; +20/+40/+50/+40/+50/0
Sand Rush | Sand Force | Mold Breaker; +50/+50/+20/+20/+20/+20
Swarm | Shell Armor | Overcoat; +20/+60/+60/+20/+60/-40
Sturdy | Overcoat; +25/+25/+50/+25/+25/+25
Sturdy | Magnet Pull | Sand Force; +30/+10/+10/+30/+60/+10
Swarm | Technician | Light Metal; 0/+20/+20/0/0/-40
-
Simple | Unaware |
Moody; +20/+40/+20/+20/+20/+40
-
- Primary type
- Stage 2 to Stage 3
- Secondary Type (none for Primary Type)
-
Sand Stream | Unnerve; +30/+50/+40/+30/+30/+10
Torrent | Protean; +18/+32/+15/+20/+15/+25
-
Swift Swim | Sniper | Damp; +20/+30/0/0/+50/0
-
Steadfast | Justified; +30/+90/+30/0/+60/+30
Water Absorb | Damp | Swift Swim; +25/+30/+30/+20/+40/-20
Overgrow | Bulletproof; +27/+29/+27/+18/+17/+7
-
Shield Dust | Compound Eyes | Friend Guard; +35/+30/-10/+63/+20/+60
Compound Eyes | Tinted Lens; +10/+25/-5/+65/+55/+40
Swarm | Rivalry; +10/+35/-5/+75/+25/+50
Inner Focus | Multiscale; +30/+50/+30/+30/+30/+10
Intimidate | Moxie; +30/+40/-20/+50/+30/+50
Blaze | Solar Power; +20/+20/+20/+29/+20/+20
-
Chlorophyll | Healer; +15/+15/+25/+5/+25/+10
-
Poison Point | Rivalry | Sheer Force; +20/+30/+20/+20/+30/+20
Poison Point | Rivalry | Sheer Force; +20/+30/+20/+30/+20/+20
Overgrow | Shell Armor; +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20
-
Shield Dust | Compound Eyes; +10/+15/+15/+25/+65/+50
-
Blaze | Magician; +16/+10/+14/+24/+30/+31
-
Torrent | Defiant; +20/+20/+20/+30/+25/+10
-
- Secondary Type (none for Primary Type)
EDIT: Updated to include Diggersby (Ground secondary) and Marill (Water primary).
Last edited:
canno
formerly The Reptile
Since we're on the subject of Skill Swap...
-->
+70 / +80 / +20 / +40 / +10 / +10
Truant
While those stats are tempting for any Stage 2 Pokemon, Truant is definitely not a desirable ability. However, with Skill Swap you can pull off some potentially cool tricks. Even if your opponent is aware of your shenanigans, it is still hard to avoid Skill Swap unless they have Protect. The main flaw of this plan is
a) You almost always need to Skill Swap on the turn you switch in (no stage 2 mon gets Skill Swap and a momentum move), making your turn 1 with your Truant mon more predictable than usual. Sure, you can go for an attack instead in the mind games, but there is high risk and probably not enough reward, as you give your opponent a free turn. On another note, this also means you can't really run a choice item.
b) All the Skill Swapper have low to mediocre attack. While this allows them to go mixed due to the +80 attack and good +40 SpA, it obviously would of been much better to get a physical attacker to abuse that monstrous attack boost.
Here are some of the things that might be able to pull it off:
110 / 150 / 150 / 100 / 140 / 35
110/150/140 bulk is nothing to scoff at, especially when it is also packing a huge 150 attack. This is the most you will get out of the +80 attack boost, and it isn't that terrible honestly. You also get Slack Off from Slaking, giving Dusclops the recovery it really wanted. Of course, you are very weak to Taunt (especially on turn 1) and lack powerful STAB moves to abuse that huge 150 attack (I think Shadow Claw is your best STAB) are weaknesses to this, but overall it doesn't actually seem that bad.
110 / 125 / 50 / 160 / 80 / 115
Sporting the best speed tier, Kadabra doesn't seem that terrible with its huge 160 SpA and good 115 speed letting it terrorize a ton of stuff. 125 attack is also good enough to go mixed, although I don't know why you'd do that. It also sports good SpDef, although its Def is still bad even with its huge HP stat.
those two are probably the only really viable ones, outside of maybe Braixen or Haunter I guess.
+70 / +80 / +20 / +40 / +10 / +10
Truant
While those stats are tempting for any Stage 2 Pokemon, Truant is definitely not a desirable ability. However, with Skill Swap you can pull off some potentially cool tricks. Even if your opponent is aware of your shenanigans, it is still hard to avoid Skill Swap unless they have Protect. The main flaw of this plan is
a) You almost always need to Skill Swap on the turn you switch in (no stage 2 mon gets Skill Swap and a momentum move), making your turn 1 with your Truant mon more predictable than usual. Sure, you can go for an attack instead in the mind games, but there is high risk and probably not enough reward, as you give your opponent a free turn. On another note, this also means you can't really run a choice item.
b) All the Skill Swapper have low to mediocre attack. While this allows them to go mixed due to the +80 attack and good +40 SpA, it obviously would of been much better to get a physical attacker to abuse that monstrous attack boost.
Here are some of the things that might be able to pull it off:
110/150/140 bulk is nothing to scoff at, especially when it is also packing a huge 150 attack. This is the most you will get out of the +80 attack boost, and it isn't that terrible honestly. You also get Slack Off from Slaking, giving Dusclops the recovery it really wanted. Of course, you are very weak to Taunt (especially on turn 1) and lack powerful STAB moves to abuse that huge 150 attack (I think Shadow Claw is your best STAB) are weaknesses to this, but overall it doesn't actually seem that bad.
Sporting the best speed tier, Kadabra doesn't seem that terrible with its huge 160 SpA and good 115 speed letting it terrorize a ton of stuff. 125 attack is also good enough to go mixed, although I don't know why you'd do that. It also sports good SpDef, although its Def is still bad even with its huge HP stat.
those two are probably the only really viable ones, outside of maybe Braixen or Haunter I guess.
tehy
Banned deucer.
i don't think kadabra needs to bother, since it's still not that fat and frankly it can get more speed and SpA - haunter and braixen are also in this boat. That said, Dusclops seems like a cool cat - Skill Swap / Shadow Claw / Earthquake / (Pain Split / Will-o-Wisp / Bulk Up) seems pretty solid.
Another thing...
Manectric (Helioptile) @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Electrify
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Base Stats: 74/68/53/101/63/110
Typing: unchanged
Manectric and Zebstrika both provide the greatest Speed boost of any stage 2 cross-evolution with Lightning Rod, although the selling point of Manectric in particular is the extra Special Attack (+40 vs. +30).
This strategy is mostly for laughs, but it's not totally mindless. It's more of a gamble that has its share of favorable and unfavorable outcomes. The favorable outcomes are: (1) using Electrify before the opponent's attack, giving that nice Lightning Rod boost; (2) using Substitute or attacking directly if the opponent tries to circumvent the predicted Electrify by switching or setting up. The unfavorable outcomes are: (1) using Electrify on the switch or set-up, wasting PP or giving the opponent a free setup opportunity, respectively; (2) using Substitute on an attack, wasting precious HP (especially if the opponent is using a sound-based move); (3) using an attacking move without enough boosts, potentially resulting in suffering a KO.
At any rate, it is something to look out for. The choice between Leftovers and Life Orb depends on whether you want passive recovery or extra raw power. Hidden Power Ice is the best coverage move choice because running Flamethrower (from Manectric) or Surf leaves it completely walled by Ground-types with Flash Fire or Water Absorb/Storm Drain, respectively, whereas Ice has no immunities bar standard Shedinja.
Manectric (Helioptile) @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Electrify
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Base Stats: 74/68/53/101/63/110
Typing: unchanged
Manectric and Zebstrika both provide the greatest Speed boost of any stage 2 cross-evolution with Lightning Rod, although the selling point of Manectric in particular is the extra Special Attack (+40 vs. +30).
This strategy is mostly for laughs, but it's not totally mindless. It's more of a gamble that has its share of favorable and unfavorable outcomes. The favorable outcomes are: (1) using Electrify before the opponent's attack, giving that nice Lightning Rod boost; (2) using Substitute or attacking directly if the opponent tries to circumvent the predicted Electrify by switching or setting up. The unfavorable outcomes are: (1) using Electrify on the switch or set-up, wasting PP or giving the opponent a free setup opportunity, respectively; (2) using Substitute on an attack, wasting precious HP (especially if the opponent is using a sound-based move); (3) using an attacking move without enough boosts, potentially resulting in suffering a KO.
At any rate, it is something to look out for. The choice between Leftovers and Life Orb depends on whether you want passive recovery or extra raw power. Hidden Power Ice is the best coverage move choice because running Flamethrower (from Manectric) or Surf leaves it completely walled by Ground-types with Flash Fire or Water Absorb/Storm Drain, respectively, whereas Ice has no immunities bar standard Shedinja.
Mean Look can't be passed in Gen 6.Since no one has brought this up...
Delcatty (Misdreavus) @ Leftovers
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Skill Swap
- Mean Look / Substitute / Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Baton Pass / Dazzling Gleam
Base Stats: 80/80/80/105/105/105
Typing: Ghost
Like Normalize Gengar in AAA but with slightly less Speed (and SpA) and one less STAB (although it does get Nasty Plot). It even gets Baton Pass from Delcatty, through which it can pass Mean Look to potentially provide a favorable opportunity for some other team member (for example, Cranidos+Froslass with Rock Polish and/or Swords Dance), or pass Substitute or Nasty Plot for something that needs a Sub to hide behind or a boost in SpA, respectively. Alternatively, it can run Dazzling Gleam for coverage.
(Reminder that Misdreavus is tied with Tangela for highest BST of any (currently) legal stage 1 cross-evolver.)
This invalidates anything with less than 110 speed or without priority. Status gets absorbed lol. This thing (manifested as sceptilite heliolisk) was a quite uncompetitive SOB in mix and mega.Another thing...
Manectric (Helioptile) @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Electrify
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Base Stats: 74/68/53/101/63/110
Typing: unchanged
Manectric and Zebstrika both provide the greatest Speed boost of any stage 2 cross-evolution with Lightning Rod, although the selling point of Manectric in particular is the extra Special Attack (+40 vs. +30).
This strategy is mostly for laughs, but it's not totally mindless. It's more of a gamble that has its share of favorable and unfavorable outcomes. The favorable outcomes are: (1) using Electrify before the opponent's attack, giving that nice Lightning Rod boost; (2) using Substitute or attacking directly if the opponent tries to circumvent the predicted Electrify by switching or setting up. The unfavorable outcomes are: (1) using Electrify on the switch or set-up, wasting PP or giving the opponent a free setup opportunity, respectively; (2) using Substitute on an attack, wasting precious HP (especially if the opponent is using a sound-based move); (3) using an attacking move without enough boosts, potentially resulting in suffering a KO.
At any rate, it is something to look out for. The choice between Leftovers and Life Orb depends on whether you want passive recovery or extra raw power. Hidden Power Ice is the best coverage move choice because running Flamethrower (from Manectric) or Surf leaves it completely walled by Ground-types with Flash Fire or Water Absorb/Storm Drain, respectively, whereas Ice has no immunities bar standard Shedinja.
Last edited:
This is arguably less bad than it was in Mix and Mega as Helioptile -> Manectric is much slower than Sceptilite Heliolisk and, as I've mentioned before, there's a lot of speed creep in this meta. It's still really uncompetitive though, yeah
Yes, fortunately 110 will be middling speed, so I don't think it will be as much of a problem, however, it will simply trounce bulky offense. It also absorbs trick room, if I recall correctly
Okay, Wow, You guys took some of the worst if not the worth threats of AAA (Skill Swap Normalize), 2v2 (Skill Swap Truant) AND MnM (Psuedo Sceptilite-Heliolisk) and posted it over, I can see them being quite strong and most of them possibly getting quick banned when the meta is finally playable, But for now it is all theorymons, for example the problem with Helioptile/Manectric is easily fixed with own lightning rods, Magic Bounce, Mold Breakers etc. So we will have to wait, to see what people offer to the table in order to counter and defeat this
I realized that GF practically have a psuedo Cross-evo themselves, Which is Shelmet --> Accelgor and Karrablast -->Escavalier, Which should've been the other way around (An armored Shelmet --> Escavalier, A fairly fast Karrablast --> Accelgor) but due to how escavalier decreases speed by 40, it won't work, This is why it is a "Psuedo" cross evo, So maybe the banner could be based on this fact, I suck at drawing so sadly I can not do it, but maybe someone could make it? I dunno :P
I realized that GF practically have a psuedo Cross-evo themselves, Which is Shelmet --> Accelgor and Karrablast -->Escavalier, Which should've been the other way around (An armored Shelmet --> Escavalier, A fairly fast Karrablast --> Accelgor) but due to how escavalier decreases speed by 40, it won't work, This is why it is a "Psuedo" cross evo, So maybe the banner could be based on this fact, I suck at drawing so sadly I can not do it, but maybe someone could make it? I dunno :P
EV
Banned deucer.
Hitmonlee (Cranidos)
82 / 210 / 58 / 30 / 105 / 110
Limber / Reckless / Unburden
Every ability looks cool. Reckless + 210 + Head Smash is an absolute nuke tho so that's hard to pass up. It also gets Swords Dance (!) which can combo with Unburden and a Lum or resist berry. Very scary threat right here.
so, magmar. unless i'm missing something and there's a reason it hasn't been talked about yet, it seems pretty amazing
gallademar
95/185/87/100/145/123, fire/fighting, justified
rocking a disgusting 735 bst, good bulk, amazing attack, and a usable movepool make this thing terrifying. you could do power-up punch/close combat/flare blitz/knock off, for example
serpmar
80/110/77/115/105/123, fire, contrary
spam overheat and leaf storm. if it gets going it'd be hard to stop
p.s. i could see something running shell smash evolving into accelgor and becoming a horrifying nightmare
gallademar
95/185/87/100/145/123, fire/fighting, justified
rocking a disgusting 735 bst, good bulk, amazing attack, and a usable movepool make this thing terrifying. you could do power-up punch/close combat/flare blitz/knock off, for example
serpmar
80/110/77/115/105/123, fire, contrary
spam overheat and leaf storm. if it gets going it'd be hard to stop
p.s. i could see something running shell smash evolving into accelgor and becoming a horrifying nightmare
yeah, Magmar is a great Pokémon to evolve from thanks to how great its base stats are. Its stats are good all-around except for HP and Defense so it can really use anything that doesn't place it in a defensive role, and Fire isn't bad offensively either so it'll be able to use its higher stats given from more offensive evolutions well. For that matter, I don't know if there's really a reason it's been overlooked- maybe because it just doesn't have much in the way of movepool that sets it apart from other Stage 2s, or something?so, magmar. unless i'm missing something and there's a reason it hasn't been talked about yet, it seems pretty amazing
gallademar
95/185/87/100/145/123, fire/fighting, justified
rocking a disgusting 735 bst, good bulk, amazing attack, and a usable movepool make this thing terrifying. you could do power-up punch/close combat/flare blitz/knock off, for example
serpmar
80/110/77/115/105/123, fire, contrary
spam overheat and leaf storm. if it gets going it'd be hard to stop
p.s. i could see something running shell smash evolving into accelgor and becoming a horrifying nightmare
as for the last thing you added here, the best pick for a special Shell Smasher is probably Omanyte as it's got a decent Special Attack and its low Speed doesn't matter thanks to how high Accelgor boosts it. lack of a good Rock STAB still sucks though
252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Cranidos Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 107-125 (26 - 30.4%) -- 1.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
210 max invest vs 135/150 no invest Gallade Rhydon
Yeah my boy Rhydon is going to be the Pdon of this meta...
Just a few sets, so that this post isn't junk...
Hope you have priority
55 / 80 / 120 / 110 / 75 / 75
Bibarel (Omanyte) @ Mystic Water / White Herb
Ability: Simple
EVs: 196 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shell Smash
- Earth Power
- Hyrdo Pump
- Ice Beam
Hmmm +4/+4/+4 in one turn? Don't mind if I do. Speed EVs mean you creep anything below base 135 after boost. Resists bravebird.
+4 252+ SpA Mystic Water Omanyte Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 322-379 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Nice
Stupidly Versatile
125 / 195 / 110 / 65 / 100 / 80
Beedrill (Rhydon) @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Defog
- Roost
- Focus Energy
Inherit from beedrill. Do it. Look at that freakin movepool. HO LEEE DAMN
You get all of that except for those stupid pod moves.
Against that aforementioned Munchlax that "walls" Rhydon:
0+ Atk Sniper Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Munchlax on a critical hit: 400-472 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thats no investment 195 vs max investment 175/80
Edited to include sniper. Where are your unaware walls now??
Anything from a cocoon or pod will give youan amazing the movepool of that bug
just to make a point, here are some of the notable moves beedrill gives, on top of its good stat boosts.
Phys
u-turn, poison jab, pursuit, knock-off, double edge, drill run, endeavor
Special
giga drain, sludge bomb, solar beam
Status
Agility, baton pass, defog, focus energy, roost, swords dance, toxic spikes, tailwind
Just some further thinking...
Beedrill can give a +40/+20/+40 attack boost to any stage 2s along with Focus energy and sniper. Blow through unaware walls and other defensive setups with the all new wave of Critdra 2.0
210 max invest vs 135/150 no invest Gallade Rhydon
Yeah my boy Rhydon is going to be the Pdon of this meta...
Just a few sets, so that this post isn't junk...
Hope you have priority
55 / 80 / 120 / 110 / 75 / 75
Bibarel (Omanyte) @ Mystic Water / White Herb
Ability: Simple
EVs: 196 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shell Smash
- Earth Power
- Hyrdo Pump
- Ice Beam
Hmmm +4/+4/+4 in one turn? Don't mind if I do. Speed EVs mean you creep anything below base 135 after boost. Resists bravebird.
+4 252+ SpA Mystic Water Omanyte Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 322-379 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Nice
Stupidly Versatile
125 / 195 / 110 / 65 / 100 / 80
Beedrill (Rhydon) @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Defog
- Roost
- Focus Energy
Inherit from beedrill. Do it. Look at that freakin movepool. HO LEEE DAMN
You get all of that except for those stupid pod moves.
Against that aforementioned Munchlax that "walls" Rhydon:
0+ Atk Sniper Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Munchlax on a critical hit: 400-472 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thats no investment 195 vs max investment 175/80
Edited to include sniper. Where are your unaware walls now??
Anything from a cocoon or pod will give you
just to make a point, here are some of the notable moves beedrill gives, on top of its good stat boosts.
Phys
u-turn, poison jab, pursuit, knock-off, double edge, drill run, endeavor
Special
giga drain, sludge bomb, solar beam
Status
Agility, baton pass, defog, focus energy, roost, swords dance, toxic spikes, tailwind
Just some further thinking...
Beedrill can give a +40/+20/+40 attack boost to any stage 2s along with Focus energy and sniper. Blow through unaware walls and other defensive setups with the all new wave of Critdra 2.0
Last edited:
Instead of Bibarel-Omanyte, Try this:-252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Cranidos Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 107-125 (26 - 30.4%) -- 1.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
210 max invest vs 135/150 no invest Gallade Rhydon
Yeah my boy Rhydon is going to be the Pdon of this meta...
Just a few sets, so that this post isn't junk...
Hope you have priority
55 / 80 / 120 / 110 / 75 / 75
Bibarel (Omanyte) @ Mystic Water / White Herb
Ability: Simple
EVs: 196 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shell Smash
- Earth Power
- Hyrdo Pump
- Ice Beam
Hmmm +4/+4/+4 in one turn? Don't mind if I do. Speed EVs mean you creep anything below base 135 after boost. Resists bravebird.
+4 252+ SpA Mystic Water Omanyte Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 322-379 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Nice
Stupidly Versatile
125 / 195 / 110 / 65 / 100 / 80
Beedrill (Rhydon) @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Defog
- Roost
- Focus Energy
Inherit from beedrill. Do it. Look at that freakin movepool. HO LEEE DAMN
You get all of that except for those stupid pod moves.
Against that aforementioned Munchlax that "walls" Rhydon:
0+ Atk Sniper Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Munchlax on a critical hit: 400-472 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thats no investment 195 vs max investment 175/80
Edited to include sniper. Where are your unaware walls now??
Anything from a cocoon or pod will give youan amazingthe movepool of that bug
just to make a point, here are some of the notable moves beedrill gives, on top of its good stat boosts.
Phys
u-turn, poison jab, pursuit, knock-off, double edge, drill run, endeavor
Special
giga drain, sludge bomb, solar beam
Status
Agility, baton pass, defog, focus energy, roost, swords dance, toxic spikes, tailwind
Just some further thinking...
Beedrill can give a +40/+20/+40 attack boost to any stage 2s along with Focus energy and sniper. Blow through unaware walls and other defensive setups with the all new wave of Critdra 2.0
Swoobat (Omanyte) @ White Herb
47/62/112/112/67/77
Ability: Simple
EVs: 216 HP / 252 SpA / 40 Spe
Modest Nature
- Stored Power
- Shell Smash
- Scald
- Roost
Slightly Higher SpA and Speed but lower any stats, You won't need them anyway when you charge these +4 Scald and +4 Stored Power anyway, 77 with 40 EV +4 is the same as 75 with 56 EV +4 so it is not slower, But here is a calc:-
+4 252+ SpA Omanyte Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 428-504 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So yeah.. a lot better
People always joke about every OM giving Noivern STAB Boomburst...in Evolutionary Cross, Noivern gives STAB Boomburst to the OM.
110/100/115/137/115/108
Noivern (Porygon) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
Solid all-around stats with a tasty 137 Special Attack to fire off Boomburst. With a Specs, only Ghost types and especially bulky Rock and Steel types will want to mess with you (although the latter two have to watch out for Focus Blast). Shadow Ball hits the Ghosts that are immune to your previous two attacks and forms perfect neutral coverage with Focus Blast. Thankfully, Noivern gives a lot of Speed, so you jump all the way up to Keldeo levels and can run a Timid nature to outspeed a decent amount. Since Speed is kind of insane in this meta, though, you can also opt for Modest and a bit more HP. You can also take advantage of your 110/115/115 defensive stats to run a bulkier build like this:
Noivern (Porygon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Boomburst
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
- Foul Play
Even uninvested, Boomburst isn't to be underestimated. Foul Play hits Ghosts and strong physical attackers that resist Boomburst that may want to switch into you, Thunder Wave is just annoying, and Recover is recovery. You could also run Toxic and/or a physically defensive spread.
110/100/115/137/115/108
Noivern (Porygon) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
Solid all-around stats with a tasty 137 Special Attack to fire off Boomburst. With a Specs, only Ghost types and especially bulky Rock and Steel types will want to mess with you (although the latter two have to watch out for Focus Blast). Shadow Ball hits the Ghosts that are immune to your previous two attacks and forms perfect neutral coverage with Focus Blast. Thankfully, Noivern gives a lot of Speed, so you jump all the way up to Keldeo levels and can run a Timid nature to outspeed a decent amount. Since Speed is kind of insane in this meta, though, you can also opt for Modest and a bit more HP. You can also take advantage of your 110/115/115 defensive stats to run a bulkier build like this:
Noivern (Porygon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Boomburst
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
- Foul Play
Even uninvested, Boomburst isn't to be underestimated. Foul Play hits Ghosts and strong physical attackers that resist Boomburst that may want to switch into you, Thunder Wave is just annoying, and Recover is recovery. You could also run Toxic and/or a physically defensive spread.
Last edited:
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
You missed out one of the best reasons to use it: Magmar gets Belly Drum and Mach Punch, as well as Koff/CC/Sneak/etc from Gallade. It's incredibly unpredictable too, not being limited to just the two sets you posted (+mine), thanks to it's insane movepool.so, magmar. unless i'm missing something and there's a reason it hasn't been talked about yet, it seems pretty amazing
gallademar
95/185/87/100/145/123, fire/fighting, justified
rocking a disgusting 735 bst, good bulk, amazing attack, and a usable movepool make this thing terrifying. you could do power-up punch/close combat/flare blitz/knock off, for example
More realistically (Cranidos will probably want to run Jolly with that good speed tier, and LO+Head Smash is just asking to die):
252 Atk Choice Band Cranidos Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 266-314 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Cranidos Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 266-314 (56.1 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Cranidos Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rhydon: 204-242 (43 - 51%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
(changed Cranidos to base 210, 'Don to 135/150 and Ground/Fighting)
ZHB is viable coverage because you only need stuff for Rock resists (ie Steel, Ground, Fighting). Reckless HJK hits almost as hard though (if ZHB is SE/HJK is neutral), so if you're worried about that it still gets the first two 2HKOs.
Neutral Boomburst hits harder than SE Ice Beam (effectively 210 vs 180 BP), so I'd rather run Shadow Ball for the Ghosts.People always joke about every OM giving Noivern STAB Boomburst...in Evolutionary Cross, Noivern gives STAB Boomburst to the OM.
110/100/115/137/115/108
Noivern (Porygon) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam
- Trick
"Can You Really Call This A Shell Smasher, I Didn't Receive A Low Speed Stat or Anything" (accelgor(omanyte))
65/70/55/150/50/155, Rock/Water, Unburden
@ White Herb
Shell Smash/Hydro Pump/pick two:(Ice Beam, Earth Power, Energy Ball, Bug Buzz, Focus Blast, Water Shuriken, Me First)
even though its bulk is garbage, the nice thing about accelnyte is it's immediately threatening with its great special attack stat, blistering speed, and comprehensive movepool. this gives it ample opportunity to set up shell smash, and if you run white herb+unburden, then nothing on god's green earth is outspeeding you, even uninvested (you hit 865). most of the moves don't need explaining, but i'll touch on the last two - til that accelgor learns water shuriken, and even though it's coming off its much lesser attack stat, it's still a STAB ~50 BP priority move, meaning it can still pressure revenge killers if you're willing to use a moveslot. me first is gimmicky but it would be really funny to cream something trying to take you out with its own move, and accelnyte has the speed and special attack to do it.
Isn't that set illegal due to woobat already learning stored power? I'm a bit confused on how move inheritance works. So far, I have thought it was any new moves that the evolution gained over its old stage that could be passed
Nvm I'm dumb, right in the OP. 2 moves max from the evo line
Last edited:
Somehow I forgot it even got Shadow Ball. I checked for Dark Pulse, saw it didn't learn it, and gave up lol. Edited -- Shadow Ball is much better.
So this isn't a one-liner, here's another set:
75/125/65/55/55/115
Linoone (Doduo) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Knock Off
- Roost/Brave Bird/Facade
Needs serious support in order to actually BD up (Memento, Screens, Substitute Pass and sleep moves are all options), but once it does, its the most powerful Extreme Speed user in the game. Knock Off hits Ghosts, and the last move is up to preference. Jolly means you can potentially outspeed things that resist/are immune to Extreme Speed and hit them with Knock Off, but Adamant is preferred for more power.
If you want actually bulk to pull this off, Licktung is probably your best bet. Much less power, though.
You are wrong, Doduo is tied for the most power E-Speed withSomehow I forgot it even got Shadow Ball. I checked for Dark Pulse, saw it didn't learn it, and gave up lol. Edited -- Shadow Ball is much better.
So this isn't a one-liner, here's another set:
75/125/65/55/55/115
Linoone (Doduo) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Knock Off
- Roost/Brave Bird/Facade
Needs serious support in order to actually BD up (Memento, Screens, Substitute Pass and sleep moves are all options), but once it does, its the most powerful Extreme Speed user in the game. Knock Off hits Ghosts, and the last move is up to preference. Jolly means you can potentially outspeed things that resist/are immune to Extreme Speed and hit them with Knock Off, but Adamant is preferred for more power.
If you want actually bulk to pull this off, Licktung is probably your best bet. Much less power, though.
A much bulkier version of Doduo, Sure it is slow, But it is nicely bulky and strong
With these nice stats:- 175/125/60/60/105/45
Aaand Munchlax has actual coverage like EQ,Gunk Shot, Ice/Thunder/Fire Punch, There is also Zen Headbutt and Superpower etc.
Edit:- There is also Arcanine Munchlax and Lucario Munchlax, As Munchlax already has BD without any setting
Both of which has its own niche, Way of using, Advantages AND Disadvantages
Arcanine Munchlax:- 170/125/75/70/115/40
--It gets Close Combat to replace Superpower, Flare Blitz to Replace Fire punch (Too risky though, You can use Fire Punch to prevent from dying to recoil), There is also Iron Head, Espeed obviously, Crunch, Semi-Reliable recovery as Morning Sun, Also Outrage, WoW and also Wild Charge and a lot of great abilities like Intimidate/FF, But unlike Lucario it doesn't have Knock Off, And most of its best moves are recoil, So yeah--
Lucario Munchlax:- 165/125/70/120/115/35
--Gets a lot of Fighting Moves [Drain Punch, HJK] to replace Superpower, Blaze Kick to replace Fire Punch, Spammable Priority (Bullet/Mach Punch), A way to Shuffle enemies (Circle Throw), A secondary steel typing which is both a blessing and a curse (X4 Fighting Weakness) High SpA enough to run mixed sets with great moves and capabilities to run physical,special or mixed, There is also Special Boosting [NP], Bulk Up/SD for more reliable boosting instead of BD, There is also Stone Edge, its main disadvantage against Arcanine is its niche abilities which won't work in normal cases, Its steel typing doesn't benefit snorlax much, actually it hurts it due to the fact that it now has a fighting typing,Not a lot of disadvantages, but still--
Last edited:
But am I really wrong if its a tie? Still technically the most powerful. :P
You're right though, Munchlax looks solid (really the only reason to use Doduo would be to deal with fast Ghosts, and I'm not sure how many of those people will use). Since it already has BD, I'd opt for Arcanine on a set like this:
Munchlax @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Crunch
- Superpower
Your HP is so high that its more efficient to invest in SpD, and Intimidate increases your physical bulk. You can split the distribution to better take on certain threats, but who knows what people will have to prepare for at this point. Has a much easier time setting up than Doduo thanks to a better ability and bulk.
You're right though, Munchlax looks solid (really the only reason to use Doduo would be to deal with fast Ghosts, and I'm not sure how many of those people will use). Since it already has BD, I'd opt for Arcanine on a set like this:
Munchlax @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Crunch
- Superpower
Your HP is so high that its more efficient to invest in SpD, and Intimidate increases your physical bulk. You can split the distribution to better take on certain threats, but who knows what people will have to prepare for at this point. Has a much easier time setting up than Doduo thanks to a better ability and bulk.
canno
formerly The Reptile
You're all wrong. This is the strongest Espeeder in terms of raw attack stat, anyways...
-->
91 / 174 / 95 / 70 / 130 / 100
With a mighty 660 BST and a decent typing (one that would of been mad OP if it existed a generation prior), Dragonair can absolutely destroy teams! It has an extremely solid 91/95/130 bulk spread, a sky-high 174 attack, and a usable base 100 speed. This, alongside a colorful movepool (which includes the legendary Espeed, of course!) and a plethora of boosting possibilities (Swords Dance, Bulk Up, and Dragon Dance - pick your poison!) makes Dragonair a dangerous threat. Its only held back by the fact that, while usable, the speed is still a bit on the low side, especially due to the increase speed bar in the current meta. The typing also has a lot of flaws, the main one being Fairies. Still, overall a very solid mon and, from what I can tell, is the strongest Espeeder in terms of raw attack stat. Sadly, its Espeeds are not the strongest - STAB boost 2gud
252+ Atk Dragonair Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 119-141 (29.4 - 34.9%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Munchlax Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 141-166 (34.9 - 41%) -- 65.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
91 / 174 / 95 / 70 / 130 / 100
With a mighty 660 BST and a decent typing (one that would of been mad OP if it existed a generation prior), Dragonair can absolutely destroy teams! It has an extremely solid 91/95/130 bulk spread, a sky-high 174 attack, and a usable base 100 speed. This, alongside a colorful movepool (which includes the legendary Espeed, of course!) and a plethora of boosting possibilities (Swords Dance, Bulk Up, and Dragon Dance - pick your poison!) makes Dragonair a dangerous threat. Its only held back by the fact that, while usable, the speed is still a bit on the low side, especially due to the increase speed bar in the current meta. The typing also has a lot of flaws, the main one being Fairies. Still, overall a very solid mon and, from what I can tell, is the strongest Espeeder in terms of raw attack stat. Sadly, its Espeeds are not the strongest - STAB boost 2gud
252+ Atk Dragonair Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 119-141 (29.4 - 34.9%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Munchlax Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 141-166 (34.9 - 41%) -- 65.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I can see dragon move/mach punch/shadow sneak/SD or DD/dragon move/CC/shadow claw working quite well on Gallade dragonair. What's really scary though is Ninjask cubone. With a thick club... That thing could rip apart teams after ome swords dance.
Last edited: