-
Smogon Premier League is here and the team collection is now available. Support your team!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Deoxys E Discussion
- Thread starter Peanut-Lover
- Start date
According to everyone here, OUs Steel/Psychic types are things that fare best against Deoxys-S. Why, then, would HP Fire be *bad* idea?
And Metagross requires over 100 EVs in HP to turn a 152 EV, neutral natured Life Orb HP Fire into a 3HKO.
Pretty easy to make a 2HKO with little investment needed.
Oh yeah? Why not run some calcs? The Deoxys-S Life Orb Smogon set (+Speed nature, 252 EVs in SpA) will do 48.90% - 57.69% to the CB Metagross set (+Attk nature, 252 EVs in HP), easily enough for a 2KO. And if Metagross switches in on Deoxys, Deoxys will go first and KO before Metagross can attack.
So you hit meta for 55% (I think less than 50% if you have good EVs) with HP fire and meta hits you for 100% with meteor mash.
If that's all HP fire can do then people are not going to run it. Sure it can kill meta if it switches into to HP fire, but that requires really good prediction as HP fire probably does zilch to whatever is out at the moment. Also it means meta can get the revenge kill. Finally if it has HP fire it doesn't have any of the other far better moves it needs to hurt the other members of your team.
Also steel/psychic types are not not the only counters. There's also Cress, which easily walls it. Also from what I hear it doesn't OHKO blissey, it does like 60% ish. Blissey can come in on ice beam and then counter Deoxys into oblivion.
It doesn't have enough attack strength to OHKO walls even when its super effective, which can lead to painful life orb stalling. It's fragile enough, especially with life orb, that tanks (not just meta, but milotic, swampert and the like to) can usually hit back for the OHKO.
If your team is Breloom, Garchomp, Gyrados, Dragonite, Ttar and Weavile then it's going to brutalize you, but a team like that isn't good anyway.
If that's all HP fire can do then people are not going to run it. Sure it can kill meta if it switches into to HP fire, but that requires really good prediction as HP fire probably does zilch to whatever is out at the moment. Also it means meta can get the revenge kill. Finally if it has HP fire it doesn't have any of the other far better moves it needs to hurt the other members of your team.
Also steel/psychic types are not not the only counters. There's also Cress, which easily walls it. Also from what I hear it doesn't OHKO blissey, it does like 60% ish. Blissey can come in on ice beam and then counter Deoxys into oblivion.
It doesn't have enough attack strength to OHKO walls even when its super effective, which can lead to painful life orb stalling. It's fragile enough, especially with life orb, that tanks (not just meta, but milotic, swampert and the like to) can usually hit back for the OHKO.
If your team is Breloom, Garchomp, Gyrados, Dragonite, Ttar and Weavile then it's going to brutalize you, but a team like that isn't good anyway.
Can't LO Deoxys-S 2HKO Bliss with Superpower with about 100 Atk EVs?
When I run calcs I get:
First hit Damage: 60.92% - 71.57%
2nd hit Damage: 40.81% - 47.95%
And that's on 252/252 Bold Bliss (who maxes HP on Bliss anyways?)
Anyways that range is from 95.48 - 113.27, including Leftovers recovery.
Personally, I'd watch out for Bliss Twave though...makes Deoxys almost useless.
Everyone's going on about its LO/CSpecs sets, but there's so much support to be found. I'd like to see good use made of a Knock Off/Counter kind of set...he can even Spike and Recover, too.
When I run calcs I get:
First hit Damage: 60.92% - 71.57%
2nd hit Damage: 40.81% - 47.95%
And that's on 252/252 Bold Bliss (who maxes HP on Bliss anyways?)
Anyways that range is from 95.48 - 113.27, including Leftovers recovery.
Personally, I'd watch out for Bliss Twave though...makes Deoxys almost useless.
Everyone's going on about its LO/CSpecs sets, but there's so much support to be found. I'd like to see good use made of a Knock Off/Counter kind of set...he can even Spike and Recover, too.
Considering that Metagross(or any steel for that natter) has to take 2 hits before it can attack(1 from switching in and being outsped), it can't even get off a single attack before it's 2HKO
Who is really gonna keep Deoxys in against a metagross @ full health until metagrosses start carrying pursuit?
If you put up Deoxys directly against the pokes it does least against of course it wont seem bad, but what do you do in the middle of battle when your metagross is already in hp fire range? That type of crap causes the problems.
With so much speed youll have to have a poke @100% health and a chance to not be 1hko'd to counter deoxys after a revenge kill.
my problem with Deoxys-S is that if it invests HP to take attacks or speed to outspeed just about every choice scarfer that its taking away from its ablity to Hurt stuff or take hits now if this was GSC i could vouch for keeping this form banned but the truth of the matter is is that deoxys-S is eather gonna not hurt anything thats not already frail or have a 4x weak to one of its attacks or is gonna be really fragile itself and get fucked if it fails to kill due to having average to just above average attack and defensive stats.
while it doesn't have a single solid counter due to its massive movepool if it can't kill something in a turn then chances are its gonna get fucked up somehow due to having such average attacking stats.
i think Deoxys-S is the one pokemon who has the most misplaced stats for any attempt at anything while it has 180 speed..the 95 attacking stats are rather pathetic compared oh say garchomp 130 and with no way to boost its attacking stats outside of choice band/specs (or calm mind for set up special sets) you will find yourself wishing it had more than base 95 in attacking stats.
when it comes to defensive and supports sets however i think this the only thing deoxys-S can really do well with fantastic support options in all 3 screens spikes stealth rock knock off thunder wave taunt and toxic.
But 50/90/90 while having 30 more base HP than duskull means it won't fold over like a deck of card if breathed on it still isn't really good enough for the kind of hits generally found in OU while it does sport recover its hinder by the PP cut recover got in DP and with all the sandstream and spikes/toxic spikes and SR going around you'll find yourself wishing recover still had its old PP max instead of 16 points it does now if you want to try to stall with deoxys-S you'll need to keep it piss poor HP from being lowered constantly
i wish there was a 3rd option of I don't think its uber but i don't think its really OU level it seems to me to be limited to revenge killing and support for me in OU and that isn't quite good enough when D/P seems to be about how flexable you can be almost all of the OU pokemon are OU because they can be flexable with both there movepools and EV spreads..deoxys-S while having a Extremely flexable movepool has limited choices when it comes to EV spreading without making it too weak for really attacking or being really fragile.
and thats my option
while it doesn't have a single solid counter due to its massive movepool if it can't kill something in a turn then chances are its gonna get fucked up somehow due to having such average attacking stats.
i think Deoxys-S is the one pokemon who has the most misplaced stats for any attempt at anything while it has 180 speed..the 95 attacking stats are rather pathetic compared oh say garchomp 130 and with no way to boost its attacking stats outside of choice band/specs (or calm mind for set up special sets) you will find yourself wishing it had more than base 95 in attacking stats.
when it comes to defensive and supports sets however i think this the only thing deoxys-S can really do well with fantastic support options in all 3 screens spikes stealth rock knock off thunder wave taunt and toxic.
But 50/90/90 while having 30 more base HP than duskull means it won't fold over like a deck of card if breathed on it still isn't really good enough for the kind of hits generally found in OU while it does sport recover its hinder by the PP cut recover got in DP and with all the sandstream and spikes/toxic spikes and SR going around you'll find yourself wishing recover still had its old PP max instead of 16 points it does now if you want to try to stall with deoxys-S you'll need to keep it piss poor HP from being lowered constantly
i wish there was a 3rd option of I don't think its uber but i don't think its really OU level it seems to me to be limited to revenge killing and support for me in OU and that isn't quite good enough when D/P seems to be about how flexable you can be almost all of the OU pokemon are OU because they can be flexable with both there movepools and EV spreads..deoxys-S while having a Extremely flexable movepool has limited choices when it comes to EV spreading without making it too weak for really attacking or being really fragile.
and thats my option
All these calculations are assuming perfect prediction. If your opponent is always hitting you super effective on the switch then you deserve to lose.
If blissey switches into any attack besides super power dexoys needs to switch. If meta/maybe jirachi switches into any move besides HP fire then deoxys needs to switch.
If you out predict the opponent TWICE with it you get one kill in.
For example lets say they have out dragonite and you have out deoxys. They switch to blissey and you use superpower hitting for 60% damage. They switch to Skamory and you use HP fire. They leave in skamory and try to brave bird you and you use HP fire again. Skamory dies. You just out predicted them two maybe three times and you've killed one pokemon. Now they can just send out metagross and hit whatever you decide to switch in with meteor mash.
Cress, a very common OU pokemon completely walls it no matter what it decides to run.
Bronzong is another hard counter (gryoball LOL).
If blissey switches into any attack besides super power dexoys needs to switch. If meta/maybe jirachi switches into any move besides HP fire then deoxys needs to switch.
If you out predict the opponent TWICE with it you get one kill in.
For example lets say they have out dragonite and you have out deoxys. They switch to blissey and you use superpower hitting for 60% damage. They switch to Skamory and you use HP fire. They leave in skamory and try to brave bird you and you use HP fire again. Skamory dies. You just out predicted them two maybe three times and you've killed one pokemon. Now they can just send out metagross and hit whatever you decide to switch in with meteor mash.
Cress, a very common OU pokemon completely walls it no matter what it decides to run.
Bronzong is another hard counter (gryoball LOL).
Well if Bliss switches into LO Psycho Boost, then Superpower is probably a KO if Rocks are on the field...Otherwise she's laughing off 12% Ice Beams or something
My only complaint is why would you put Extremespeed on a Pokemon that outspeeds everything in the game?
As far as i can see it, Deoxys need all 4 moveslots in order to effectively hurt (and kill) everything. It can ill afford that slot to put Extremespeed, especially since it's only good against a few things like Dugtrio. Dusknoir/Spiritomb are immune to it, Metagross's bullet punch doesn't even OHKO, Arcanine's Extremespeed just doesn't OHKO, and if you allowed Linoone to set up a Belly Drum, there are better counters then using a Deoxys to Extremespeed.
The only use of Extremespeed is to kill Dugtrio before it Sucker Punch (es) you to oblivion, and even then, the Dugtrio must be Choice Banded (LO just won't kill), and the Deoxys must have lost 10% hp (from life orb recoil) for Sucker Punch to OHKO.
Which it will, because the Dugtrio is almost invariably being sent in after Deoxys has killed another Pokemon.
Out of the battles I've had against it on the ladder I reckon it will probably stay in OU as a very strong late game finisher with Life Orb, akin to Sub Garchomp. However there'll probably be a rise in Steel type usage to counter it. Early game and/or if it's choiced it's relatively easy to kill it with an attack or two and some prediction (at least with my team because of Registeel and sandstream). The only change I've made in response to it is giving my Registeel Shadow Claw over Sleep Talk (ironically first battle I had after that change I faced a Roserade lead, typical). However I haven't had that many battles against it so it's still a bit up in the air for me.
I really wonder why nobody has mentioned Taunt with Deoxys-S.
Taunt means "you can't T-Wave me, you can't toxic stall me, you can't Whirlwind me". So a good number of the strongest counters (in my opinion) to Deoxys-S (paralysis and toxistalling) are rendered futile.
Taunt means "you can't T-Wave me, you can't toxic stall me, you can't Whirlwind me". So a good number of the strongest counters (in my opinion) to Deoxys-S (paralysis and toxistalling) are rendered futile.
Can't Shadowball 2HKO Celebi?
Maybe Shadowball and 501 speed will catch on to counter other Deoxys :)
how much does it take from its own psyco boost?
Jirachi can Thunder hax or Body Slam hax you. Bronzong kills you with Gyro Ball anyway. Metagross is obviously going to kill Deoxys. Spiritomb usually just Sucker Punches or Pursuits you.
But yes, Cress hates Taunt.
Well those are the usual counters.
Sorry Gorm, but Ice Beam hits Celebi a lot harder than Shadow Ball (190BP vs 160BP), and from experience, it does about 70% to Celebi. Oops.
In my opinion, it's still too good for OU, and has been bagging 2-3 KO's in each game I play, regardless of the opponent's calibre. I accept that that's a vague statement, but I've never used a Pokemon that can KO opponent Pokemon so consistently in the late game. I'll be glancing at the opponents remaining Pokemon and thinking to myself "Great, Deoxys can OHKO all of them now and he's faster. gg"
