Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

[Lady Alex]

As much as I personally don't like Deoxys, I have a difficult time convincing myself that its presence is too much for OU. I disagree that deoxys is ridiculously unpredictable. With team preview, it's generally easy to get an idea of what set deoxys is running. If the team is full of set up sweepers who are relatively frail it's reasonable to assume it's a dual screen variant. Balanced and heavy offense teams generally use rocks/spikes. If the opponent saves deoxys for late game, always be prepared to deal with a life orb variant. Even though one can say "but deoxys doesn't have to be running X set for any given scenario," the same can be said for other pokemon, notably dragons who can go mixed.

As nixhex said above, it's relatively easy to deal with rocks/spikes variants using pokemon such as ferrothorn or forretress, who are already very prevalent in the metagame. Even starmie will limit its utility by rapid spinning as it sets up. If you argue that deoxys might simply carry thunderbolt, it likely isn't carrying taunt, making it set up fodder for set up sweepers.

Dual screen deoxys isn't very different from other pokemon who would attempt to fill the same role. If deoxys were to be banned, it would be easy for other screeners such as espeon, azelf, and latios to take its place and set up screens nearly as efficiently. The biggest thing deoxys has over these pokemon is its ability to outspeed a number of scarfed pokemon. Scarf Tyranitar craps all over the screeners I just mentioned, but being stuck on crunch still allows you to bring in something to set up on tyranitar.

Essentially, I feel that deoxys is a great pokemon with amazing versatility, but isn't broken. I think that it should stay OU =/

 

[soul_survivor]

Here's my more experienced post after revisiting The metagame just yesterday. I ran into about only 7 deo's.

Lead stealthrock/spike set:

Are people really complaining about this lol. So it gets up rocks(with me thats all it gets). It dies immediately, and I don't run a spinner, and SR was well manageable imo. Though imo if you cant limit deo to just 1 layer of spikes, and rocks you deserve to lose, and if you do just run a spinner. The only thing I see is his move choice. My choice to stop him is usually ttar but when they carry superpower I get screwed quite alot, but psycho boost variants are manageable.


DualScreens:

Okay this set is easily the most annoying and leads to reflect/lightscreen boost combos. This is easily manageable though. I've tooken down Dnite at 2+ hiding behind reflect, AND lightscreen though this rarely happens because I revenge it at 1+ with scarfrachi. I can relate to how tough it is stopping this but phazing usually stops this. Moves like t-wave,whirlwind, and roar can put a stop to deo's partner. The rest is up to you.

Mixedattacker: I always pondered using one, but in my whole playing career(since round2.) for 5th gen I never ever seen1. So I have no comment here.



Overall he really isn't that broken. He doesn't force players to run specific pokemon like CB aquajet azumarill. He doesn't need to be banned.

 

[Xephyr]

Yeah I'm really not buying it being 'broken'. It's very, very good, probably top 5, but not broken. Like people have said, it's really limited to three sets.

1. Offensive cleaner - This set really just isn't quite strong enough. Sure, it has a huge movepool, but it's still really just limited to Psycho Boost/HP Fire/Superpower/Ice Beam, and while it does indeed KO a ton of 4x weak threats, it doesn't do much else. It also hurts that he has two moves that lower his offensive stats, so you can easily stall him out until he's utterly useless.

2. Hazards layer - I honestly think that people that use this set are really limiting themselves. You're basically saying, "alright, I choose to play 5 on 6 but you have Rocks and Spikes". I've never believed in suicide leads, as it's a waste of an entire moveslot. This thing is killed way too easily and spinning is just simple in this metagame unless your opponent uses a well-played Disable Gengar.

3. Dual Screen - this is the set in question, I believe, because the other two are average at best. This thing is fantastic on Hyper Offense, but frankly I believe its presence enriches the metagame with a fun and powerful playstyle. Without Deoxys, hyper offense usually isn't that great unless you're really good. I mean, go look at the RMT Archives post-Deoxys, and you'll see that hyper offense is almost non-existent for the most part. Stopping hyper offense isn't THAT hard, guys, and while this set is indeed excellent and makes hyper offense viable, I don't think that Deoxys is the problem. It's things like Dragonite and Volcarona that are what you should be worrying about.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

This thing is killed way too easily and spinning is just simple in this metagame unless your opponent uses a well-played Disable Gengar.

How is spinning easy? Starmie, Forry, or Tentacruel. Pick one. Oh wait, only Starmie has any REAL offensive presence to stop shit from setting up in its face, but it still gets pwned by Ferrothorn or Jellicent(If it lacks LO).

3. Dual Screen - this is the set in question, I believe, because the other two are average at best. This thing is fantastic on Hyper Offense, but frankly I believe its presence enriches the metagame with a fun and powerful playstyle. Without Deoxys, hyper offense usually isn't that great unless you're really good. I mean, go look at the RMT Archives post-Deoxys, and you'll see that hyper offense is almost non-existent for the most part. Stopping hyper offense isn't THAT hard, guys, and while this set is indeed excellent and makes hyper offense viable, I don't think that Deoxys is the problem. It's things like Dragonite and Volcarona that are what you should be worrying about.

Fun is very subjective. I personally do NOT find it fun to fight 20 teams that consist of Deo-S + 5 Sweepers.

Stopping HO isn't hard? Look I have to problem if you say this, but can you please post examples?

Yes, we worry about Dnite and Volcarona...we worry about them even more when they have guaranteed screens in front of them. Lets say your Dnite usually only gets 2 DDs up and you put a DS Deoxys-S on your team. Now your Dnite can easily get like 4 DDs with a good chance of getting hazards too with even less effort :D

Basically, the only way to stop this is Dragon Tail, Roar, WW, and Toxic(since WoW doesn't affect Volcarona, who is one of the deadliest).
Another problem spouts when you find that your phazer can't get in safely and if you switch in on Deo-S, you'll get Taunted. Hell, as long as you don't carry a super strong STAB move(Which barely any phazers carry), you can't even lead with it to beat Deo-S.

 

[Xephyr]

Stopping HO isn't hard? Look I have to problem if you say this, but can you please post examples?

Quagsire. Priority. Playing intelligently.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

I believe Deoxys-S should stay OU because it is a necessity for the viability of Hyper Offense.


Just kidding. Get it out of here.

It's way too easy to get up screens with it and let another member of your team set up easily.

Support Characteristic

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Deoxys-S has this written all over him. Consistently? Yes. Most Scizor I have come across have attempted to use Pursuit instead of Bullet Punch.

Also, just so you know, HO isn't completely inviable without Deoxys. You have a multitude of other dual screens users to choose from, including Espeon, Azelf, and even Dual Screens + Memento Latios. I've been able to successfully use HO in Clear Skies, where Deoxys-S is banned. Sure, Deoxys-S makes it better, but come on guys, it's not the only dual screen user in the entire game.

I believe Deoxys-S should be Uber.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Quagsire. Priority. Playing intelligently.

Quagsire isn't OU, which AFAIK, when talking about these things, we consider only OU pokemon <,<

Priority? Oh, okay, Scizor or CBNite, except that after a single screen is set up, good like trying to break open the opponent's Dnite with lolExtremeSpeed/Bullet Punch when it's behind screens.

Playing intelligently? Shouldn't that apply to both sides? Why should my opponent just select screens, set up SR before Deo-S dies or w/e, send out a sweeper, and oh look, I just lost half my team. Woo hoo, and I still got 4 more sweepers :D Fun, yes?

 

[Eggbert]

Dual screens deo is very difficult to stop without a prankster. Rotom can trick it a scarf but then will fail to revenge the rest of the team (love when this happens). Dnite can limit setup with CB extremespeed but deo will still get reflect + sr or light screens. Scizor can u-turn to something like scarf terrakion. If I see my opponent has sableye, I will not lead with deo since sableye kills any momentum simply by spamming wow. Fortunately lum exists so it can't stop every sweep. IF DS gives you problems, try and stay alive until the screens go down and then use a scarfer to systematically pick off each sweeper. Not easy, but it works.

Keep in mind: There aren't set ways to beating DS teams since they can vary. scarf terrakion can stop dragonite but cloyster still kills it at +2. scizor can revenge alot of sweepers but not every team has vulnerable pokemon. Also quagsire has sweepers that it can't stop. It's best to have a scarfer and mons that aren't easy to setup on, that is the only general preperation

 

[Xephyr]

Quagsire isn't OU, which AFAIK, when talking about these things, we consider only OU pokemon <,<

Priority? Oh, okay, Scizor or CBNite, except that after a single screen is set up, good like trying to break open the opponent's Dnite with lolExtremeSpeed/Bullet Punch when it's behind screens.

Playing intelligently? Shouldn't that apply to both sides? Why should my opponent just select screens, set up SR before Deo-S dies or w/e, send out a sweeper, and oh look, I just lost half my team. Woo hoo, and I still got 4 more sweepers :D Fun, yes?

Hyper offense is pretty much the definitions of a one-trick pony. You know what to expect, so a well-built team, when played well, should be able to handle a team that's nothing but five common sweepers. I lose way more often to voltturn teams and rain stall than I do to Deoxys+(dragonitehaxorussalamencelucarioterrakionscraftyetcetcetc)

 

[Umby]

For everyone bringing up the Support characteristic:

1) It's come to my attention that this stopped being a hard rule for governing tiering Pokemon in Gen 5? Someone shed some light on that.

2) How do you define "making it substantially easier for other Pokemon to sweep?" People are trying to negate Azelf's likeness to Deoxys-S simply because it doesn't outspeed some Scarf users and Dragon Dancers, but Azelf and even something like Jirachi could set up Dual Screen consistently if they wanted to.

And it doesn't stop there. What about Espeon who makes it easier to Baton Pass through Magic Bounce and do you keep the defining characteristic exclusive from Skarmory or Forretress who set up entry hazards? Most analyses I read are always emphasizing how KO damage ranges change significantly when Stealth Rock is in play. That fact alone is important since it means specific threats can clear out certain Pokemon earlier than they would have normally had to work for.

For everyone afraid of losing a Pokemon to unpredictability, that is going to happen on a relatively regular basis. "Man, I risk losing my Scizor to this thing because I could guess its set wrong." You risk losing a Heatran to a Celebi because you didn't know it had Earth Power on its Nasty Plot set. There goes your Volcarona counter. Oh but wait, you risk losing a Scizor to Celebi because it might be carrying HP Fire instead! I guess that means you'll start checking to see what kind of set it's running before you make decisions...at which point you run into a Celebi that has Thunder Wave and/or Stealth Rock. =/

I have no idea why one Pokemon is being singled out for carrying similar attributes as several other Pokemon in the same tier. Its only edge over said Pokemon is that it outruns more stuff, which means it possibly gets instant advantage at turn 1, depending on how its opponent plays. In any given battle, anyone could have an advantage at turn 1. Use ingenuity and intelligent play to turn it around.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Hyper offense is pretty much the definitions of a one-trick pony. You know what to expect, so a well-built team, when played well, should be able to handle a team that's nothing but five common sweepers. I lose way more often to voltturn teams and rain stall than I do to Deoxys+(dragonitehaxorussalamencelucarioterrakionscraftyetcetcetc)

It doesn't matter if you know what they're going to do. It's very difficult to stop it.

@ Umby: Azelf and Jirachi lack a couple things that make Deo-S a lot better.

1. Speed. Yes, it matters a lot because you can set up your screens/taunt before they can.

2. Offensive prowess. Yes, Deo-S has lower power, but he does have that huge move pool with many different attacking options. Azelf is Fire Blast + Psychic, Jirachi is lolSteel + Paralyzing moves, and Deo-S is Fighting, Psychic, Fire, Ice, Electric, etc.

3. He fits a lot better in HO.

 

[Xephyr]

It doesn't matter if you know what they're going to do. It's very difficult to stop it.

Maybe for you I guess. Haven't had much trouble with it nor do I see myself having trouble with it in the future.

 

[Umby]

I wasn't referring to how good Azelf/Jirachi are in comparison to Deo-S. I already know why he's better, but everyone's making it seem like Dual Screens itself is broken and that Deo-S has exclusive access to it, making it broken. Even with the advantages it does have, what common OU Pokemon are going to taunt Max +Speed Nature Azelf/Jirachi without a boost (edit: no I'm neglecting that Pokemon could at least attack either one before they screen, I'm aware of that)? Even more fun to consider is what you're initially going to send in considering both could run support sets, or one of their numerous other offensive sets. It creates a decision making process that people apparently have an issue with in the midst of battle.

 

[Ningildo]

I find it funny that when people start discussing on why to ban X, they bring up that the set that screws them over and say that they were expecting one set and then got another, so they can label it as "unpredictable" and say:"That's why it should be banned."
Following that principle, then a whole lot pokemon in OU would be banned.
Now, you say Deoxys-S is unpredictable? With a whopping 3 sets?
Then why are we even whining about Deoxys-S then?
Why isn't Dragonite Uber by now?
Before you guys say anything, I'm not saying Deoxys-S isn't broken.
All I'm saying is that everyone should stop using unpredictability as a ban reason.

That being said, Deoxys-S does fit that support characteristic.
But may I ask for what Gen that is?
Because as much as the chance that it is the same now, it also might have altered.

And by the way, when you see Deoxys-S and use a hazard layer against it, such as Ferrothorn, what do you do?
Taunt is coming nearly always, so a Gyro Ball will sting hard with Deoxys-S's high Speed.
When using a Set up sweeper to lead, just go for the kill. 241 HP and 216 Defenses (304 HP for a Dual Screener) aren't exactly sturdy. I mean, how hard is predicting a Taunt from Deoxys-S?
It's not that hard to find a way to kill it.
If those ways of disposing it doesn't suit you, use CB Haxorus or ANY hard hitter for that matter.

If then you don't like the way of disposing it, congratulations.
You made a team that that has NO attacking moves whatsoever and thus, are lunch for Deoxys-S or anything with Taunt for that matter.

Having to over prepare for a threat is one thing, but if your team isn't prepared handle him, face it. Your team can't check Deoxys-S, done, get over it.
You can't check everything in this metagame.

EDIT:God, I'm such a slow poster.

 

[Tobes]

While Deoxys-S is one of the few Pokemon in OU that is guaranteed to do its job well, I feel it isn't Uber. From what I've used, faced and observed, Deoxys-S is unable to consistently provide suitable conditions for my team to have an easier sweep to the extent at which some people here are saying. Deoxys-S will guarantee you Stealth Rock, unless they run a Prankster Pokemon with Taunt. While you could use Mental Herb or Magic Coat, it's more likely you'll be running Light Clay, Focus Sash or Taunt. I feel personally, that Deoxys-S without Taunt is easily bait for something like Dragonite to set up.

Before I talk about Deoxys-S, I'd like to talk about my experiences with it. For me, Deoxys-S has been a fantastic Pokemon when used on the ladder, and while my current ranking doesn't show it, a simple Hyper Offense team of Deoxys-S and 5 Physical Sweepers has gotten me to #4 on the ladder with roughly a 1540 rating. When people build their teams, they don't take Deoxys-S into consideration, perhaps because it isn't visually a Pokemon that can cause harm to a team. I agree, and usually it isn't something that is in the back of my mind that I need to prepare for, however, I personally have little problem with Deoxys-S leads, unlike October 2008 when it was becoming increasingly clear to some that Deoxys-S was Uber. One reason for this is the advent of Team Preview. Team Preview is there to be utilised, and I stress this with every tutee I have. Some people just rush in, and don't use Team Preview to their advantage, not being as careful as they should (and I am guilty of this when I'm in a ladder grinding session), and I think this is more evident on the ladder, where people are trying to cover as many games in as short of a time as possible without really thinking. In tournament games, good players have a good idea to what to do vs Deoxys-S, planning a couple of turns ahead to what Sweeper is going to come out right after Deoxys-S faints. They're more cautious for obvious reasons. Admittedly, the HO team I've been using has an average record for me in tournaments, and practice games vs good players trying out teams for different tournies. Not to say I'm a terrible player, but I feel the HO playstyle is definitely more suited for ladder play against the masses, than anything else.

Onto Deo-S itself, I think that the Dual Hazard Deoxys-S lead is a positive influence on the metagame. Non-hyper offensive teams have the option to opt for a good hazard layerer, without having to resort to something bulky such as Ferrothorn or Skarmory, and I feel this enriches variety and creativity, by encouraging offensive teams with more frailer Pokemon such as Infernape to become useful, without having to slow down the tempo. If your team is destroyed by DD Dragonite after your counter has taken SR and Spikes Damage, then the problem is Dragonite, or the fact that you have built your team poorly, or the fact that you underestimated the sweeping potential of probably the best Pokemon in OU.

Deoxys-S provides a different approach to setting up hazard damage, a different playstyle. Ferro will almost certainly get up SR/Spikes in 90% of games and also have other use; it punishes for Spinning on it, and it can KO Starmie and Donphan with a STAB Power Whip. Tentacruel has to hope it burns it with Scald. While Deoxys-S likely will die early on, Ferro will plough on until the mid-to-end game, bit by bit accumulating hazard damage. One reason why this is seen as more acceptable than quickly getting 1 or 2 layers and then dying, is that it is more drawn out, and the 'impact' (excuse me if that sounded cheesey) of the situation that your team might possible get swept is dulled.

On the subject of spinners, I agree that they all are pretty bad, except for Tentacruel who is one of the most difficult Pokemon to face in Rain (from experience), and Starmie who usually gets off a Spin.

A quick note regarding the LO cleaner set: The LO Cleaner set is uncommon and practically unheard of, and judging from the sentiments in this thread, people are split on both leading sets, and not this one in particular. While something doesn't have to be used much to be Uber (Gen 4 Wobb), I have not seen a single complaint regarding the LO set in any IRC channel I frequent, nor on the PO chat. Summaries of why it's fine in OU have already been provided within this thread by other people and are pretty sound.

The following logs are of me using my HO team against some people. I didn't play amazing in any of the logs, but I did win in all of them. What I would like to point out is that Deoxys-S was not the key deciding factor in any game, infact, it was the sheer power of 5 very strong sweepers breaking through the opponent's team and therefore winning me the game:


http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-free-candy-vs-Nachos--2011-11-02-private671859685

http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Nachos-vs-ITAEden--2011-11-15-private799603113

http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Nachos-vs-Ojama--2011-11-07-private1553329492

If I had to place the blame on Deoxys-S or the amount of strong set-up sweepers BW has introduced, then I fully believe it rests on the individual sweepers themselves, rather than Deoxys-S.

I agree with PK Gaming that the Dual Screen set is annoying. Sometimes I forget it too, but the screens don't last forever. However, 'annoying' does not equal broken. A ban should be reserved when something is pushing it to the limit, and Deoxys-S hasn't reached that limit. The Dual Screen will not always be successful, most of the time you'll be getting up SR and a screen, but not usually both. From here, you can exploit the weaker side of the team through sending in something strong. Although this is biased towards Special Sweepers, as Deo-S usually sets up Reflect for all the Physical Sweepers, something like Latios can really cause pain, considering most set up sweepers start off slower than it. Starmie is lame to face as well.

Overall, I believe that there is more of an underlying anger under the 'cheapness' of easy-to-use HO teams, rather than Deoxys-S. kd24 mentioned that Deoxys-S is a perfect Pokemon to bait something like Scizor in, only to let something else set up on it (like Volcarona, or even the recently banned Thundurus), but honestly, isn't the idea of using Offensive Pokemon, to find the best opportunity to let something come in safely, and start wrecking house? If there is even a problem with HO teams, then it will not be sorted by banning Deoxys-S. If anything, HO teams will gain a boost now that the #1 threat to them is banned, as they more than anything else hate hazards, Dragonite will take losing screens anyday to come in at 100%, when it is now pretty much guaranteed 1 DD, maybe even two.

Finally, in response to the last part of ToF's post: a big factor for me when using Deoxys-S is that it can use Stealth Rock to hinder Pokemon such as Dragonite and Volcarona, as you mentioned. If I see a Dragonite on the opponent's team, I will set up SR ASAP, even if means losing screens. Deoxys-S is high up there as a problem for those two certain mons.

I think there may be holes in what I have to say, but I feel that Deoxys-S is the scapegoat for a 'problem' that some people are having (likely with the BW metagame itself). The unpredictability argument has been summed up well by others. I'll leave this here for now, because there isn't more for me to add currently.

That and I might be getting people call me Nachos16 in the future.

Quoting this so that it can be seen again, and also calling attention to Detroitlolcat and Umby's posts. Unpredictability is a horrible argument here. Do you people who argue it not know how to think critically? It isn't difficult at all to infer what moves Deoxys-S is likely to be running based on its teammates.

As for support, Dual Screens seems to be what everyone is harking on atm, but let's be realistic. A dedicated Dual Screens Azelf is probably going to do the job (i.e., set up rocks and one or both screens) just as well as Deoxys-S. Same goes for Jirachi, and to a lesser extent Memento Latios. And if you're arguing for hazards, how is Deoxys-S any more broken then Ferrothorn (read: not at all)? Ferrothorn has far more of an impact over the course of a game, and unlike Deoxys-S can stick around to throw down more hazards later on. And if it's a dedicated hazard lead, then guess what, it's not likely to have screens and can do pretty much nothing to stop Starmie from spinning away hazards. And if Deo is down 1 HP from sash, then what do you know, Rapid Spin KOes! It's not difficult enough to beat that it warrants a ban. The complaints against it and calls for bans seem to me to be more like a case of "I don't like dealing with it" than "this breaks the game", which I want to remind you all is NOT how we do things here.

 

[yee]

Deoxys-S is so fucking Uber, get this thing out of the tier. Not only does it set up at least SR and most likely a layer of Spikes, it also kills all the common Rapid Spinners with HP Fire / Thunder. If you spin once on Deoxys-S, you aren't able to spin again. Just the fact that you start the game with taking so much hazards damage makes it incredibly difficult to keep momentum on your side. There's a reason that the last few #pokemon challenge winning teams bar mine have won: they lead with Deoxys-S to instantly give them momentum and an advantage. Shakeitup's team would not nearly have been as successful without Deoxys-S.

The support capabilities of this Pokemon are absurd. To whoever said spinning is easy in BW, you're just flat out misinformed. Spinning might have been easy when Excadrill was around, but now it's not so easy. It becomes so much harder dealing with an offensively oriented metagame when something like Deoxys-S can set hazards up at will. Deoxys-S now is exactly like how it was in DPP, where it set up hazards and screens to allow shit to sweep easier. The only difference between BW and DPP is that, well BW has a shitton more powerful threats. Terrakion anyone? Dragonite? Volcarona? All these things benefit so much from hazards. Get Deoxys-S out.

While reading through the last pages of the thread I found my main thoughts most effectively written out in this post.

"I don't like dealing with it" than "this breaks the game", which I want to remind you all is NOT how we do things here.

My argument would absolutely be about Deoxys-S breaking the game, it makes it stupidly easy to set up your sweepers and troll almost any attempt to stop it. It turns up the team match-up problems to an much worse degree than weather has.

 

[Pocket]

According to ToF's argument, it seems like Ferrothorn would also fall into this "uber support characteristic," simply because it lays hazards effortlessly, beats most Rapid Spinners (plus Iron Barbs being a bitch), and Spinning is hard without Excadrill.

 

[Marble101]

Whenever my opponent leads with Deoxys-S, it will always Taunt first, so a Gyro Ball takes away 60-70% of its HP. Then another one and the most it gets up is Stealth Rock or 1 layer of Spikes.

I use Deoxys-S as a Revenge-Killer/Late Game sweeper with the offensive set. And even though many people claim it can't do too much damage, it easily cleans up teams where every pokemon has lost 20%-ish of their health, as well as being able to OHKO several offensive threats when they are at full HP.

 

[yee]

Calling Ferrothorn an Uber isn't the worst nomination I've seen here (although that's not saying much). The difference is that Ferrothorn doesn't just steal absolutely every hope of gaining momentum you have; strong Pokemon will actually be able to force it out. Pain Split Forry and Scald Tenta with a burn both easily spin on it. It can be realistically Taunted to prevent hazards too. I don't think I need to elaborate too much on the difference, I expect the general opinion by now to be that it's annoying but not broken because it's easy enough to respond to.

 

[idiotfrommars]

I agree 100% with Nachos post.

Deoxys-s might be annoying to face, but when have we ever banned anything based on annoying?

It is fairly predictable and fairly easy to stop as long as you think about the situation and don't play like an idiot. The two main sets both support the team, but in no way result in a game breaking situation. Azelf and friends can do the exact same thing as the screen sets, granted with slightly less base speed, and hazards will be prevent in OU with or without deoxys-s.

Sure it might be a great lead for a Hyper Offensive team, but at the same time can get down the hazards that all Hyper Offensive teams face.

I feel like the problem seems to be more with peoples attitudes and the way they team build than Deoxys-s themselves. When building a team most people don't give consideration to Deoxys-s, they think more about the sweepers that come after him. If they would instead build to stop Deoxys-s then there goes the problem. If anything is broken its the Pokemon that Deoxys-s supports. Lets not make it the scapegoat for people that don't like the meta-game.

In tournament situations it isn't broken, since people actually use there brain when battling. That should be the real teller here, not the fact that it can beat people in the middle of a ladder grinding session. All it takes is a little thought from the player and Deoxys-s suddenly becomes good and not broken.

 

[Ningildo]

Calling Ferrothorn an Uber isn't the worst nomination I've seen here (although that's not saying much). The difference is that Ferrothorn doesn't just steal absolutely every hope of gaining momentum you have; strong Pokemon will actually be able to force it out. Pain Split Forry and Scald Tenta with a burn both easily spin on it. It can be realistically Taunted to prevent hazards too. I don't think I need to elaborate too much on the difference, I expect the general opinion by now to be that it's annoying but not broken because it's easy enough to respond to.

Since the topic is that Deoxys-S makes HO broken(or not), why not use Magic Coat? Or Magic Bounce? Last time I checked, Magic Bounce makes all hazards bounce back at the one who did it against the Magic Bounce pokemon.
So, what does Stall and Co. lack now to deal with it, since the point was that it can set down hazards quick, so it can give a lot of support with "ease", which makes it broken. So we go to Dual Screens. Which, as stated, can be stalled out with a properly built team.
So I really don't see where all this "it's gives support with ease" thing is coming from.

 

[Honus]

According to ToF's argument, it seems like Ferrothorn would also fall into this "uber support characteristic," simply because it lays hazards effortlessly, beats most Rapid Spinners (plus Iron Barbs being a bitch), and Spinning is hard without Excadrill.

Well ToF also mentioned that "it also kills all the common Rapid Spinners with HP Fire/Thunder", which Ferrothorn can't do. I'll admit that Ferrothorn does have a good matchup against the majority of spinners, but between it's low Speed Tier and lack of viable coverage moves, it isn't going to threaten them like Deoxys-S, which has a definite answer for nearly every Rapid Spinner. Ferrothorn isn't going to outspeed and kill a Heatran with Bulldoze if you led with it in order to prevent it from Spiking, either, but Deoxys-S is able to do this to Pokemon like Tyranitar by using Superpower/appropriate coverage move.

EDIT: Yee's post pretty much expressed everything I was trying to get at.

 

[b3astown]

I honestly believe there is no one thing about deoxys-s that makes him immedietly broken. Looking at it from its stats, deoxys-s isn't extreme on any spectrum besides speed. Average attacks with decent(at best defences) due to its mediocre 50 hp. Now looking at its movepool. Deoxys-s has an enormous movepool it can take advantage of, but most sets people use are predictable. Between the 3 sets, I think all of them are very usable, and unique, but not at all broken. Its typing also has much to be desired with weaknesses to pursuit, and sucker punch. What also tends to happen with a lead deoxys-s, is that if the opponent does have a spinner, it would make it close to useless once it is finished off. Not only that, but a gyro ball from anything with low speed with instantly KO it. The other 2 sets are, in my opinion, the more favorable ones to me personally. the life orb set doesnt have the power to sweep, but because of deoxys-s's speed, it can make great use of it, along with an enormous offensive movepool. However, again, very predictable. With the standard set it leaves plenty of options for the opponent to choose to get around it. The final set, the duel screener, is great for hyper offensive teams, but outside of that, it is close to useless, unable to do any considerable damage par pokemon weak to superpower. Looking at it from all of those views,is key though.I can honestly say it should remain OU. nothing in particular stands out for being broken. It doesn't have the power to be broken, or the typing to make use of its excellent movepool.


While I honestly don't enjoy facing off against deoxys-s due to the unpredictability of him. Predicting him wrong, however, would not result in the demise of the match itself. It doesn't have the offensive prowess to truly be as frightening as other pokemon banned to ubers.

 

[symphonyx64]

Normally I don't engage in discussions like this, but after the posts I've been reading I feel I should voice my opinion.

To everyone who is using the "unpredictable" argument for Deoxys-S: take a hard hard look at yourself.

As many people have stated in this thread, Deoxys-S runs one of three main sets: Entry hazard support, dual screens, and the Life Orb offensive one.

Guess what guys, its incredibly easy to figure out what set its running thanks to something called team preview. Instead of simply pressing buttons, take a minute to ANALYZE your opponent's team and see what five other Pokémon are accompanying Deoxys. If you see a slew of set-up sweepers or a Gorebyss, common reasoning would lead you to believe its Dual Screen. If you notice a Scizor+Rotom combination, you can assume its running a support set to apply pressure to the opponent via entry hazards and limit switching.

Like many other Pokémon, Deoxys-S has a wide movepool and can run a lot of combinations of moves that can OHKO certain Pokémon. Going back to my previous point, you could try and see what your opponent's team has trouble against and what the team's long term objective is to help reason out what moves it could have. Take a screenshot of team preview at the start of each battle and have that visual in front of you. It's really not that hard.

If team preview ceased to exist, this discussion would be much different. I liked Tobes' post above, one of the few people pointing out unpredictability being a flawed argument here in my opinion.

 

[ToF]

According to ToF's argument, it seems like Ferrothorn would also fall into this "uber support characteristic," simply because it lays hazards effortlessly, beats most Rapid Spinners (plus Iron Barbs being a bitch), and Spinning is hard without Excadrill.

Pocket FYI no one uses those characteristics anymore as a means for effective tiering. Read Doug's "Characteristics of a Metagame" thread for how this works now.

And I'm not even citing unpredictability and versatility as a reason to ban. Deoxys-S gets spikes and SR out pretty much guaranteed, and since spinning sucks in BW now and it's relatively easy to keep your hazards up, offensive threats like Dragonite and Terrakion, which are already strong as hell on their own, get an even bigger boost. This has nothing to do with the offensive set whatsoever; Deoxys-S now did exactly what it did in DPP which is why we BANNED IT!