Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

[MetaGross66]

If it's Dual Screens that's the problem like most people are saying, people are just going to switch over to DS Azelf who can do the same job as Deoxys-s, but with a much greater offensive presence (isn't this familiar...*Gen 4 OU*).

Dual Screens Deoxys-s is difficult to deal with, but by no means impossible to beat unless you yourself are running Hyper Offense, which seems to be the case for most people screaming Uber. Like Pocket said, it has versatility, but it can only use one set, and that set is often given away at team preview (if you see deo and 5 sweepers it's pretty safe to guess it's setting up screens and hazards). Lead with your Starmie. If it happens to get KOed, cool, set up a sweeper and finish their team.

 

[OmegaPit]

100% agreeing with what DetroitLolCat said.

Responding to all this "OMG SO UNPREDICTABLE"; Salamence says hello, Dragonite says hello and any other pokémon capable of running more than 1 moveset says hello, hell even Smeargle. Besides, only having 3 sets is REALLY unpredictable, especially since all of them but one can't actually hurt your team. That is real unpredictability there.

Deoxys-S needs some serious atk and sp.atk investment if it wants to damage to anything and as soon as you see that LO damage you just switch in your steel type (Superpower isn't OHKO'ing any steel type that has more than 50% HP) or any other pokémon that takes neutral damage from Ice Beam and Thunderbolt and then proceed to attack with your STAB move and watch as it dies in 1/2 hits. A real offensive threat there, and regarding the "It sweeps late game!" and what other Offensive pokémon doesn't sweep late game once it's counters have been removed? You can apply that logic to any offensive pokémon.

Leading with the entry hazards set is starting the game 6-5 down, because, unless you let it lay more, it's only going to get rocks down and then fall to a STAB move.

I think everyone is really overrating Deoxys-S and just want to jump on the bandwagon .

 

[AfroThunderRule]

I'm kinda on the fence on the whole thing but is Deoxys-S really guaranteed to put up Stealth Rock/One layer of Spikes or both screens? :/
And I don't think it's that unpredictable as most people here say it is.

 

[Pombo]

In my 1100>point opinion, Deoxys-S is uber under the support characteristic. Despite its lack of bulk, it can taunt anything without Magic Guard or Prankster. After Taunt, it can come in and set up multiple layers of spikes and/or Stealth Rock.

If you pair Deoxys-S with a spinblocker, you can keep said entry hazards up for the duration of the game. Sometimes, Deoxys-S (through its entry hazards) will do more damage than any other pokemon on either team. Deoxys-S can also set up dual screens faster than any other pokemon, allowing many frail pokemon to sweep.

I've never personally had a problem with offensive Deoxys-S. But his 99% guaranteed ability to set up 3 layers of spikes is too powerful for the OU metagame.

99% what? Anything with priority/taunt/strong multihit moes/TTar can ensure only 1 layer is set.

In fact, in a best case scenario you will be able to set only 2 layers (Ferrothorn, etc.)

 

[peng]

I'm not really getting the unpredictability argument. Its almost as if people don't look at team preview. Just from looking at my opponents team I can guess what Deoxys-s they are running, and I call it right like 90% of the time. It really is not difficult at all. If they have a load of set-up Pokemon (Lucario, Haxorus, Dragonite etc), chances are they are running Dual Screens. If they have a load Volt/Turn Pokemon (Scizor, Rotom-w, Landorus), chances are its a Dual hazard lead. If their team has other Pokemon that tend to run hazard support sets (Heatran, Skarmory), Deoxys will most likely be running a Life Orb set to revenge-kill or clean-up late-game.

I have been using a Life Orb lead set w/ Psycho Boost / Superpower / HP Fire / Stealth Rocks which OHKOs a lot of the Pokemon that people tend to lead off with against Deoxys-s (Scizor, Rotom-W, Tyranitar, seem to be pretty common match-ups from experience, and it also beats Forretress and Tentacruel who are common spinners), and I can imagine how annoying it would be to lose a Scizor / Rotom-w / Ttar / Tentacruel / Forretress turn 1 because your opponent is running a different set than Team Preview would suggest. However, I've only faced a couple of other people using a set like this, and as long as it remains as underlooked as it is at the moment I don't see a problem. Sets like this are designed to lure in the Pokemon that would commonly come in against the other sets. If you are arguing Deoxys-s is broken, then Dragonite should be banned because the mixed set lures in Skarmory and OHKOs with Fire Blast. If you are arguing Deoxys-s should be banned then Rotom-W should be banned because it can run a Specs set with Hidden Power [Grass] to beat Gastrodon.

I think people are forgetting that a huge part of this game is the presence of sets that can beat the Pokemon's common counters. Deoxys-s isn't the only Pokemon that has sets with multiple, mutually-exclusive sets of counters, and in my opinion certainly isn't deserving of a ban. Deoxys for OU.

 

[Basti]

I personally believe deoxys-s should be banned. The problem is that you never know what it's going to do, and once you've found out, it might already be too late.

It has the speed/power/movepool to deal out massive amounts of damage on a great part of the metagame. And even if you do end up stopping it from doing that it has enough bulk (and obviously speed) to set up hazzards/screens right infront of you. Basically, there's something deoxys can do in almost every situation it will find itself in.

Also, I've noticed that a lot of people are saying that mence, dnite, etc are also unpredictable. This may be true, but deoxys-s has something those don't have, base 180 speed. This + being unpredictable is way more dangerous. You can predict around mence by switching and eventually bringing in something faster to force a switch or take it out. (worst case scenario would be letting something die and then revenging it) That's obviously much harder to do with deoxys-s, not to mention it can set up hazzards as I switch out on a superpower that might not even be there.

It's not the speed, movepool or stats on their own, but the combination of them that makes deoxys-s so good.

That being said, the current metagame isn't fit for deoxys-s.

Deoxys-s for Uber

 

[TickingSeedotBomb]

The problem with Deoxys is that he's usually guaranteed to get in a screen. He isn't OHKO'ed by any priority attack compared to Azelf who is OHKO'ed (IIRC) by a CB Scizor's bullet punch, and Scizor is even more popular now. What makes it worse is the fact that Deoxys-S has unrivaled speed and enough bulk to get in a screen, If Scizor comes in you reflect first. If Gengar comes in you light screen first and you'll usually survive a super-effective attack to get in that next screen.

Deoxys shouldn't be uber because it can sweep teams without even setting up, it should be uber because it's guaranteed to pave the way for your teammates to sweep unless you pack dedicated stops to SmashPassing, but that's not a good argement as to why he shouldn't be banned. Just look at Excadrill, he had pokemon who could stop him cold (Gliscor and Skarmory) but he was STILL banned.

 

[Razza]

First off i would like to say that detroitlolcat is either purposely understating deoxys capabilities or has literally no idea what he is talking about.

Deoxys-s offers unparalelled support capabilities.

It runs 3 main sets

1. Dual screens, very effective almost always sets up both screens unless you are facing a rather unorthodox mixed set like metagross66's. The best dual screener in the ou metagame without a doubt being able to set up rocks and taunt also

2. LO set, this set is NOT meant to sweep, it is a hit and run attacker and can use its superb coverage to revenge shit like dd gyarados, and dragons, when used well this set is incredibly effective at getting kills,
Deoxys-s unpredictablilty comes in here I have used this set and led with it bluffing hazards, a common counter lead is scarfed rotom-w who volt switches out to scizor to finish off with bullet punch but unfortunately LO psycho boost ohkos scarf rotom-w. This sets speed is unmatched and it is a very good revenge killer/ late game cleaner.

3. Hazards or Hazards and 2/3 attacks

Full out hazards as seen in mostwanteds team apocalypse is the best hazard setter in the game without a doubt.
But deoxys-s most broken set in my opinion is hazards and 2/3 attacks. The coverage moves deoxys-s picks will win games, hp fire ohkos scizor and forretress, ice beam takes out dragons, psychoboost ohkos tentacruel with appropriate investment, thunderbolt can 2hko starmies. The fact is with its coverage moves deoxys-s can effectively take on and beat every single ou spinner, even if it has to resort to using the uncommon thunderbolt for starmie. If you mispredict what coverage moves deoxys is carrying you will lose a poke for sure, and that could very well mean a loss.

Spinning in OU is only easy because the opponent is not trying to spinblock you, if the opponent is carrying a spinblocker you are guaranteed to have a very tough time getting that spin off, yes starmie can 2hko any spinblocker in ou but stuff like scarfed gengar, scarfed rotom and gengar as seen in mostwanteds team, or jellicent and scarftar can easily be used in tandem to take care of starmie.
In fact a lot of times the opponents offensive team will not even give you a chance to get a spin off unless you risk letting a deadly sweeper set up.

One layer of spikes and stealth rocks is huge vs HO teams, it lets latios 2hko ttar, it lets specs rotom-w 2hko blissey in the rain,
it puts scizor in ko range for otr Reuniclus, 25% damage for grounded pokes upon switching in is a lot.

The fact is that deoxys-s provides incredible team support and capabilities, and is definitely suspect worthy although i am still on the fence about wether it is uber or not.

 

[King Serperior]

I have, surprisingly, only run into only 5 Deo-S in about 20-30 battles.

Anyway, I run the LO set with HP Fire (hit Scizor's weaker stat), Ice Beam, Psyshock, and Superpower. I have become extremely disappointed in him lately.
1. He cannot switch in to anything.
2. He fails to KO many things.
3. I have been running into Chople Ttars left and right.
4. I find that I get better results from CB Metagross.

Have any of you noticed a rise in Chople Ttars? That is the biggest counter to Deo-s. At least the LO varient...

 

[Stratos]

I'm not really getting the unpredictability argument. Its almost as if people don't look at team preview. Just from looking at my opponents team I can guess what Deoxys-s they are running, and I call it right like 90% of the time. It really is not difficult at all. If they have a load of set-up Pokemon (Lucario, Haxorus, Dragonite etc), chances are they are running Dual Screens. If they have a load Volt/Turn Pokemon (Scizor, Rotom-w, Landorus), chances are its a Dual hazard lead. If their team has other Pokemon that tend to run hazard support sets (Heatran, Skarmory), Deoxys will most likely be running a Life Orb set to revenge-kill or clean-up late-game.

I have been using a Life Orb lead set w/ Psycho Boost / Superpower / HP Fire / Stealth Rocks which OHKOs a lot of the Pokemon that people tend to lead off with against Deoxys-s (Scizor, Rotom-W, Tyranitar, seem to be pretty common match-ups from experience, and it also beats Forretress and Tentacruel who are common spinners), and I can imagine how annoying it would be to lose a Scizor / Rotom-w / Ttar / Tentacruel / Forretress turn 1 because your opponent is running a different set than Team Preview would suggest. However, I've only faced a couple of other people using a set like this, and as long as it remains as underlooked as it is at the moment I don't see a problem. Sets like this are designed to lure in the Pokemon that would commonly come in against the other sets. If you are arguing Deoxys-s is broken, then Dragonite should be banned because the mixed set lures in Skarmory and OHKOs with Fire Blast. If you are arguing Deoxys-s should be banned then Rotom-W should be banned because it can run a Specs set with Hidden Power [Grass] to beat Gastrodon.

I think people are forgetting that a huge part of this game is the presence of sets that can beat the Pokemon's common counters. Deoxys-s isn't the only Pokemon that has sets with multiple, mutually-exclusive sets of counters, and in my opinion certainly isn't deserving of a ban. Deoxys for OU.

have my babies

 

[PK Gaming]

I heavily disagree "ban Deoxys-S because its unpredictable" arguments. I always thought that line of reasoning was complete bogus. (Mew was almost theorybanned because of this) and lets be reasonable here, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Deoxys-S mixed set, (and nothing wrong with a lead set that occasionally runs HP fire or Superpower to mess up Tyranitar) so really when dealing with Deoxys-S, expect a suicide lead / dual screener unless its brought out lategame.

Still, i'm on the fence with Deoxys-S. Its a really good Pokemon, thats ridiculously easy to use and it provides incredible support for a team. Also the Dual Screen sets are really stupid, but i'm not quite sure if its broken yet.

 

[ToF]

Deoxys-S is so fucking Uber, get this thing out of the tier. Not only does it set up at least SR and most likely a layer of Spikes, it also kills all the common Rapid Spinners with HP Fire / Thunder. If you spin once on Deoxys-S, you aren't able to spin again. Just the fact that you start the game with taking so much hazards damage makes it incredibly difficult to keep momentum on your side. There's a reason that the last few #pokemon challenge winning teams bar mine have won: they lead with Deoxys-S to instantly give them momentum and an advantage. Shakeitup's team would not nearly have been as successful without Deoxys-S.

The support capabilities of this Pokemon are absurd. To whoever said spinning is easy in BW, you're just flat out misinformed. Spinning might have been easy when Excadrill was around, but now it's not so easy. It becomes so much harder dealing with an offensively oriented metagame when something like Deoxys-S can set hazards up at will. Deoxys-S now is exactly like how it was in DPP, where it set up hazards and screens to allow shit to sweep easier. The only difference between BW and DPP is that, well BW has a shitton more powerful threats. Terrakion anyone? Dragonite? Volcarona? All these things benefit so much from hazards. Get Deoxys-S out.

 

[Fawfulmk-II]

I've been out of sync for a while, but isn't DS Deo the main reason why people are vouching to ban baton pass? kinda reminds me of the Garchomp issue, except instead of ability exploiting it's moveset exploiting.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Reading this thread for a bit and...Deoxys-S 4 Ubers.
It's not the offensive sets that are broken, it's the DS set.

You can't tell me that it's easy to stop a Dragonite/Volcarona/Haxorus/Terrakion/SmashPasser when it's behind screens. And look at that, all six of those pokemon I've mentioned(including Deo-s) can be on the same exact team and it'll probably work. The problem is that when Deo-S is out...the only way to guarantee it wont get to set up both screens is if you use lolBrick Break or Sableye and then it's a very uphill battle because your opponent has the offensive momentum and bulky pokemon with good set up moves and great stats that just got bulkier.

 

[pele]

Speaking as a person who has used all three common DeoS sets to moderate success, yeah Deoxys is Uber.

Support Set: I think maybe the least broken set despite being the most popular. still though, getting out two layers and still having two coverage moves (Usually I ran Superpower and FirePunch) to take out the biggest threats it has, makes it a great lead, but not neccesarily broken.

Dual Screens: Now this is where it gets difficult. Dragonite? No real Problem. Volcanora? Same. Lucario? Easy. But when those guys have +1 defenses, you've got trouble. Dragonite in particular effectivly gets a double multiscale boost, and its annoying enough without the extra. When this guy sets up his screens (and he will) you are loking at 8 turns of rape.

LO Offensive: Oh boy, I love this guy and hate this guy. Do you know how much of OU this guy can take out by virtue of speed and coverage alone? Theres Breloom, Cloyster (After SS even), Conckeldurr, Espeon. Ferrothorn, Forretress, Gengar, Gliscor, Gyarados, Haxorus, Infernape, Landorus, Lucario, Magnezone, Meinshao, Ninetales, Specstoed, Rotom, Salamence, Scizor (BP is doing around 70%), Scrafty, Skarmory, Starmie, Tentacruel, nonscarf Terrekion, Tyranitar, Vaporeon, and Venusaur are all OHKOed after hazards by one of Deos moves.

The issue with Deoxys isn't speed, its the combination of speed, movepool, and decent bulk and attack that will screw you over when you face one. By some wierd anomoly this guy maake HO both Viable with dual screens, and unviable with LO sweeper. It needs to go.

 

[Nachos]

While Deoxys-S is one of the few Pokemon in OU that is guaranteed to do its job well, I feel it isn't Uber. From what I've used, faced and observed, Deoxys-S is unable to consistently provide suitable conditions for my team to have an easier sweep to the extent at which some people here are saying. Deoxys-S will guarantee you Stealth Rock, unless they run a Prankster Pokemon with Taunt. While you could use Mental Herb or Magic Coat, it's more likely you'll be running Light Clay, Focus Sash or Taunt. I feel personally, that Deoxys-S without Taunt is easily bait for something like Dragonite to set up.

Before I talk about Deoxys-S, I'd like to talk about my experiences with it. For me, Deoxys-S has been a fantastic Pokemon when used on the ladder, and while my current ranking doesn't show it, a simple Hyper Offense team of Deoxys-S and 5 Physical Sweepers has gotten me to #4 on the ladder with roughly a 1540 rating. When people build their teams, they don't take Deoxys-S into consideration, perhaps because it isn't visually a Pokemon that can cause harm to a team. I agree, and usually it isn't something that is in the back of my mind that I need to prepare for, however, I personally have little problem with Deoxys-S leads, unlike October 2008 when it was becoming increasingly clear to some that Deoxys-S was Uber. One reason for this is the advent of Team Preview. Team Preview is there to be utilised, and I stress this with every tutee I have. Some people just rush in, and don't use Team Preview to their advantage, not being as careful as they should (and I am guilty of this when I'm in a ladder grinding session), and I think this is more evident on the ladder, where people are trying to cover as many games in as short of a time as possible without really thinking. In tournament games, good players have a good idea to what to do vs Deoxys-S, planning a couple of turns ahead to what Sweeper is going to come out right after Deoxys-S faints. They're more cautious for obvious reasons. Admittedly, the HO team I've been using has an average record for me in tournaments, and practice games vs good players trying out teams for different tournies. Not to say I'm a terrible player, but I feel the HO playstyle is definitely more suited for ladder play against the masses, than anything else.

Onto Deo-S itself, I think that the Dual Hazard Deoxys-S lead is a positive influence on the metagame. Non-hyper offensive teams have the option to opt for a good hazard layerer, without having to resort to something bulky such as Ferrothorn or Skarmory, and I feel this enriches variety and creativity, by encouraging offensive teams with more frailer Pokemon such as Infernape to become useful, without having to slow down the tempo. If your team is destroyed by DD Dragonite after your counter has taken SR and Spikes Damage, then the problem is Dragonite, or the fact that you have built your team poorly, or the fact that you underestimated the sweeping potential of probably the best Pokemon in OU.

Deoxys-S provides a different approach to setting up hazard damage, a different playstyle. Ferro will almost certainly get up SR/Spikes in 90% of games and also have other use; it punishes for Spinning on it, and it can KO Starmie and Donphan with a STAB Power Whip. Tentacruel has to hope it burns it with Scald. While Deoxys-S likely will die early on, Ferro will plough on until the mid-to-end game, bit by bit accumulating hazard damage. One reason why this is seen as more acceptable than quickly getting 1 or 2 layers and then dying, is that it is more drawn out, and the 'impact' (excuse me if that sounded cheesey) of the situation that your team might possible get swept is dulled.

On the subject of spinners, I agree that they all are pretty bad, except for Tentacruel who is one of the most difficult Pokemon to face in Rain (from experience), and Starmie who usually gets off a Spin.

A quick note regarding the LO cleaner set: The LO Cleaner set is uncommon and practically unheard of, and judging from the sentiments in this thread, people are split on both leading sets, and not this one in particular. While something doesn't have to be used much to be Uber (Gen 4 Wobb), I have not seen a single complaint regarding the LO set in any IRC channel I frequent, nor on the PO chat. Summaries of why it's fine in OU have already been provided within this thread by other people and are pretty sound.

The following logs are of me using my HO team against some people. I didn't play amazing in any of the logs, but I did win in all of them. What I would like to point out is that Deoxys-S was not the key deciding factor in any game, infact, it was the sheer power of 5 very strong sweepers breaking through the opponent's team and therefore winning me the game:


http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-free-candy-vs-Nachos--2011-11-02-private671859685

http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Nachos-vs-ITAEden--2011-11-15-private799603113

http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Nachos-vs-Ojama--2011-11-07-private1553329492

If I had to place the blame on Deoxys-S or the amount of strong set-up sweepers BW has introduced, then I fully believe it rests on the individual sweepers themselves, rather than Deoxys-S.

I agree with PK Gaming that the Dual Screen set is annoying. Sometimes I forget it too, but the screens don't last forever. However, 'annoying' does not equal broken. A ban should be reserved when something is pushing it to the limit, and Deoxys-S hasn't reached that limit. The Dual Screen will not always be successful, most of the time you'll be getting up SR and a screen, but not usually both. From here, you can exploit the weaker side of the team through sending in something strong. Although this is biased towards Special Sweepers, as Deo-S usually sets up Reflect for all the Physical Sweepers, something like Latios can really cause pain, considering most set up sweepers start off slower than it. Starmie is lame to face as well.

Overall, I believe that there is more of an underlying anger under the 'cheapness' of easy-to-use HO teams, rather than Deoxys-S. kd24 mentioned that Deoxys-S is a perfect Pokemon to bait something like Scizor in, only to let something else set up on it (like Volcarona, or even the recently banned Thundurus), but honestly, isn't the idea of using Offensive Pokemon, to find the best opportunity to let something come in safely, and start wrecking house? If there is even a problem with HO teams, then it will not be sorted by banning Deoxys-S. If anything, HO teams will gain a boost now that the #1 threat to them is banned, as they more than anything else hate hazards, Dragonite will take losing screens anyday to come in at 100%, when it is now pretty much guaranteed 1 DD, maybe even two.

Finally, in response to the last part of ToF's post: a big factor for me when using Deoxys-S is that it can use Stealth Rock to hinder Pokemon such as Dragonite and Volcarona, as you mentioned. If I see a Dragonite on the opponent's team, I will set up SR ASAP, even if means losing screens. Deoxys-S is high up there as a problem for those two certain mons.

I think there may be holes in what I have to say, but I feel that Deoxys-S is the scapegoat for a 'problem' that some people are having (likely with the BW metagame itself). The unpredictability argument has been summed up well by others. I'll leave this here for now, because there isn't more for me to add currently.

That and I might be getting people call me Nachos16 in the future.

 

[Stathakis]

I was skeptical at first, but I am now without doubt that deoxys-s is uber.


I went to the ladder and slapped together a team with literally no thought. just throw some dragon dancing dragons, magnezone, and lead dx-s with dual screens. out of 20 or so games, I lost only two, and they were to opposing dx-s leads that caused me to not get the early game momentum. literally, the only way my opponents stopped my deoxys-s was with their own deoxys-s. every other game, insta screens allowed me to set up pokemn that resulted in either a full out sweep or crippling the enemy team so hard that the next guy could sweep. the only consistent answer to deoxys-s is deoxys-s. how can that possibly be healthy for a metagame?


honestly fuck unpredictability, even when you know that you're facing lead deoxys, it does its job so well that you still can't stop it. it's hard as shit to spin in this metagame, so early hazards are likely staying on for a long time if not the whole game, and there are just so many strong setup sweepers that even a few turns of screens can allow a mindless user to destroy a team. either way, he supports offensive teams so well that there is really NO reason to use any other pokemon to set up your hazards if you're using offense. got lots of choice mons? here, an extra 25% per switch will let you completely cripple hard counters to the most popular choiced attacks. got lists of setup mons? under screens they can get 3 dragon dances instead of 1. either way, your opponent loses and you don't even have to think.

 

[Nix_Hex]

I'll start by saying that I love DetroitLOLcat's post and Glen's follow up. If you want to beat Deoxys-S, you're going to have to stop crying about its unpredictability, and use a little creativity. There are two good, viable leads (read: not obscure bullshit like ChopleTar) you can use to make Deoxys-S relatively useless for your opponent when you see it at team preview: Forretress and Ferrothorn. Let's take a look at some scenarios featuring either Pokemon independently.

Forretress
There are two possible outcomes:
1. Your opponent leads with Deoxys-S -- Do something that a Forretress does. Try to lay down hazards of your own. Gyro Ball. You can easily scout to see if their set is one of the following
(a) Its set is Taunt / Spikes / SR / (weak, uninvested coverage move that will never beat Forretress in a million years even if it's Hidden Power Fire which Sturdy blocks anyways)
Solution: If it taunts you, who gives a shit? Gyro Ball while they waste their time throwing down some hazards. When they've wasted enough time or you've gotten them into KO range (or even if you haven't), Rapid Spin. You can Rapid Spin 32 times if you really want to (Pressure). What if they send in a Ghost to block Rapid Spin? Unless your opponent is really overzealous and uses Taunt before switching (aka wasting its time and potentially losing Deoxys-S in the process), your Taunt has probably run out. Lay down hazards. If their switch-in Taunts you, switch to an appropriate counter, saving Forretress for later. Or just Volt Switch out. Yes I know Forretress suffers from major 4MSS and you can't stuff all of these moves on a set but these are the options you have, and I think it has just the right amount of moves to make using Deoxys-S a liability for your opponent.
(b) The Deoxys-S runs a screens set
Solution: If they Taunted on the first turn, wait to see if they put up a screen. If they do indeed put up a screen, send out something that can put up a substitute/set up themselves (remember, if they Taunt your new Pokemon, they are wasting their time), or just attack a few times. If you feel really silly and you happen to have something with Brick Break (yes I know it's a niche move and you're better off not using in most situations, but humor me), break their screens.

2. Your opponent doesn't lead with Deoxys-S or anything that will Taunt you -- hurray, lay down some hazards! If your opponent can lay hazards themselves, chances are they won't take the time to do so since they know you can just spin them away with little to no effort. Furthermore, you can pretty much rest assured knowing that Deoxys-S is running its Life Orb cleaner set that, as DetroitLOLcat puts it, hits like a ping pong ball covered in piss. And if they're not? They're either stupid or want to play some mind games with you by sending it out later in the match to lay down hazards. If they do, Forretress is likely still alive and can spin them away later.

tl;dr -- Forretress can waste Deoxys-S's time by just doing something, including getting rid of its hazards with relative ease.

Ferrothorn
I won't be nearly as detailed here since Forretress is probably the more diverse option for taking care of Deoxys-S, but Ferrothorn takes a different approach. According to Doug's calculator (I know it's not up to date for BW but it still gives you a good idea and it's the only one i have one me atm), 252 Atk Superpower isn't even guaranteed a 3HKO on standard Ferrothorn; not that it will try, which is exactly the point. Knowing this, here are some different scenarios.
1. For some reason they start with a Superpower:
They are OHKOed by one Gyro Ball thanks to the Def drop. (their Sash is broken by Iron Barbs). Outcome? No hazards.
2. They Taunt you.
(a) You tried to do something that gets blocked by Taunt. Now that it failed, use Gyro Ball. They either put up a screen or laid down a hazard at this point. Outcome? If they run a Focus Sash, 2 hazards. If not, 1 hazard.
(b) You used Gyro Ball. Outcome? Whether or not they ran Focus Sash, 1 hazard.
3. They lay down a hazard.
(a) You laid a hazard. Yay, 1 for you too! Now Gyro Ball. If they Taunt you after their first hazard, they lose and only get up 2 hazards at most.
(b) You Gyro Ball. Outcome: They get down 2 hazards.
4. They set up screens.
You're in the same boat as Forretress unfortunately. Use brute force or switch, that's all I can say.

tl;dr: Deoxys-S can only set up a maximum of 2 hazards against Ferrothorn, and it's pure suicide. Ferrothorn survives no matter what.

Again, these are two common, viable Pokemon that are not specialized for beating Deoxys-S; it's just a bonus.

Deoxys-S for OU.

P.S. I'd just like to say that this is an excellent thread and is a great start towards the new tiering procedures. A+

 

[MetaGross66]

I was skeptical at first, but I am now without doubt that deoxys-s is uber.


I went to the ladder and slapped together a team with literally no thought. just throw some dragon dancing dragons, magnezone, and lead dx-s with dual screens. out of 20 or so games, I lost only two, and they were to opposing dx-s leads that caused me to not get the early game momentum. literally, the only way my opponents stopped my deoxys-s was with their own deoxys-s. every other game, insta screens allowed me to set up pokemn that resulted in either a full out sweep or crippling the enemy team so hard that the next guy could sweep. the only consistent answer to deoxys-s is deoxys-s. how can that possibly be healthy for a metagame?


honestly fuck unpredictability, even when you know that you're facing lead deoxys, it does its job so well that you still can't stop it. it's hard as shit to spin in this metagame, so early hazards are likely staying on for a long time if not the whole game, and there are just so many strong setup sweepers that even a few turns of screens can allow a mindless user to destroy a team. either way, he supports offensive teams so well that there is really NO reason to use any other pokemon to set up your hazards if you're using offense. got lots of choice mons? here, an extra 25% per switch will let you completely cripple hard counters to the most popular choiced attacks. got lists of setup mons? under screens they can get 3 dragon dances instead of 1. either way, your opponent loses and you don't even have to think.

Yeah, I did the same thing, and after beating some pretty good people on the ladder (one even used a countermeasure for deoxys-s in magic coat smeargle) I'm going to have to say Uber. The DS set seems to me to be the most difficult to stop. However, this isn't going to stop people from using DS Azelf if Deoxys gets banned. They do pretty much the same thing. >.> How did people deal with that in 4th gen again?

 

[Pocket]

There are many answers to Dual Screen Deoxys-S tactic, as shown below, which is really the only reason why we're having this suspect discussion in the first place. Like PK Gaming and MetaGross66 have pointed out, it's rather easy to guess the type of Deoxys-S the opponent has thanks to Team Preview, so I don't get the unpredictability argument, either. If it's unpredictable, it usually means that it's overall inferior to the standard (ie, it loses out on Taunt / Spikes).

One thing to note, is that these Deoxys-S holds Light Clay rather than Focus Sash. That means you could start with a Set-up Sweeper like Volcarona, SD Scizor, or Lucario. Deoxys-S would then have to risk setting up a Screen up only for these sweepers to set up, or it could Taunt to prevent these Sweepers from setting up only to get knocked out with Bug Buzz / Bug Bite / Crunch + ExtremeSpeed

Thus it can set up a Screen while it allows a dangerous Sweeper to set up, or Taunt without putting up the Screens / lay SR.

Of course there is the chance that you are outplayed and their Deoxys-S taunts you when you selected Swords Dance. Now they get to set up Screens and SR the turn after. This is when you simply switch out of Deoxys-S and bring out the most favorable match-up against their offensive line up. It also helps run out the Reflect / Light Screen turns. Send out your Haxorus, Dragonite, Terrakion, Latios, Starmie, Lucario, Landorus, etc, when Deoxys-S sets up SR. Even with Screens, the opponent's sweeper would not enjoy switching into these mons. Your opponent may decide to sac Deoxys-S, but that only lets you stall out the Reflect / Light Screen timer. Use Swords Dance / Dragon Dance, so Deoxys-S is forced to Taunt and you burn 1 turn. Hit Deoxys-S hard enough to leave it half-dead, but not quite knocked out, so you can easily dispatch Deoxys-S on the turn that Reflect / Light Screen runs out, etc.

And those were answers available for heavy offense users. Bulky offense has even more answers. Reflect + Light Screen simply buffers hits, but it doesn't make the opponent's Sweeper hit harder - if you have a solid defensive core, you should be able to stall out the Screens long enough for your offense to kick in. You have Sableye, who can Taunt and burn these threats. Gyarados is an underrated mon that negates Atk boosts with Intimidate, and can simply Dragon Tail these mons if they try to set up. This forces the sweepers to attack rather than set-up - you could then switch to Jirachi / some other Steel type to take a +0 Outrage. You have Jirachi, Celebi, Jellicent, Slowbro, Tangrowth, and Mew that can threaten these monsters with paralysis, burn, flinch, and Taunt, crippling them and burning up the Screen timer. Skarmory can always phaze, so could Donphan if people decide to stop using weak Ice Shard. Quagsire (except for Haxorus / special swepers I know).

I agree that Deoxys-S user has the advantage thanks to its enormous Speed. However, I believe it is not a huge one - it wouldn't let the better player to lose games. It's role is restricted to setting up Screens / hazards or provide speedy yet weak offense. Not ban-worthy, imo.

 

[Joeyboy]

I don't really understand how Deo-S doesn't create a lack of variety, nearly all teams are DS+5 or revolve around the hazards abuse it offers, what set can possibly be created that would replace it as a screener or suicide hazards mon? The same(very common) style of play might not even be used without Deo-S around, pulling off DS+5 is so much harder without that crazy speed Deo has. I also don't believe it's a common idea that Deoxys centralizes the lead metagame because there isn't really a lead metagame, especially compared to the lead metagame of DPP(yes I totally mentioned 4th gen).

I think its a little unreasonably to say that nearly all teams use Deoxys. In Oct. his usage was 11%. I find it hard to believe it could have jumped all the way to "nearly all teams" levels of usage. But nevertheless he is in fact seeing increased usage. But thats just because it does what he does well and thats been proven time and time again. As many are pointing out in some posts above mine, people just need to use a little more creativity. I used the analogy of a 'lead metagame' so that everyone would think about DPP. New anti-leads popped up all the time; man I mean anti-anti-leads were commonly used. Those would have never been found without creativity. There are ways to beat Deoxys, they just have to be found. Again, my Magic Coat Smeargle usually leaves me with a clear advantage against loads of Deoxys leads. Also I believe the real problem with DS+5 teams lies in the sweepers not Deoxys. I find he could be replaced by many other DS. I even ran Deoxys-D for a while taking bulk over speed.

Deoxys is an excellent pokemon that is for sure, but I don't think its characteristics lend itself to be inherently uber.

 

[Stathakis]

Yeah, I did the same thing, and after beating some pretty good people on the ladder (one even used a countermeasure for deoxys-s in magic coat smeargle) I'm going to have to say Uber. The DS set seems to me to be the most difficult to stop. However, this isn't going to stop people from using DS Azelf if Deoxys gets banned. They do pretty much the same thing. >.> How did people deal with that in 4th gen again?

well, the difference is azelf doesn't have base 180 speed and thus can be stopped by the more common scarfers, fast taunts, etc. and there also isn't the dual hazard option. what azelf had over deoxys-s that made him almost as good was explosion, which is now nerfed.


just saying I don't think deoxys-s is inherently uber. deoxys-s is uber because of the extremely bulky, hard-hitting pokemon around him that can utilize both choice and setup sets effectively. his unstoppably consistent support for them pushes them over the edge of brokenness.

edit: also, to those screaming about team preview, you know it's possible for the deoxys-s user to lead with something different as well, right? on my sloppily thrown together team, I lead with dragonite half the time which throws the opponent for a loop and then deoxys-s does his job 100% of the time, causing my team to win that game

 

[asterat]

The issue is, Deoxys has two extremely good sets. The dual screens/support set is excellent and can be dealt with. The other set can easily score a KO if you expect the dual screens/support. The versatility is what makes it so dangerous, I say ban

 

[chewyourfood]

Pocket, the problem I see with trying to set up on Deoxys is the possibility of getting OHKOd yourself. Even with the team preview, it's rather risky to simply assume that a Deo is running SR/spikes/screens/taunt/whatever just because it's in the lead position or if there are "5 other sweepers" on the team. What if it's carrying HP Fire? All of a sudden your SD Scizor is roasted. What if it's carrying Superpower? Suddenly your Lucario and Terrakion aren't so threatening anymore. What about Ice Beam? Then your Salamence, Haxorus, or Dragonite doesn't stand much of a chance (even if Ice Beam doesn't OHKO, it's easy to switch in a Scizor on the predicted Outrage/Extremespeed and BP). Many times I've placed Deoxys carrying these moves in the first slot just to bluff an offensive LO set.

And what if you switch out your Lucario or whatever because you think he might be carrying Superpower, only to find that you just gave your opponent a free layer of spikes? I know that this argument has been brought up before, and I completely agree with it (which is why I'm posting it, obviously); Deoxys is simply too unpredictable.

 

[Pocket]

The "unpredictability" issue may often catch heavy offensive teams by surprise, but that's the risk of playing a heavy offensive team. You simply have to make your best guess (which is made really easy with Team Preview), and go with it. If the Deoxys-S is running coverage moves, it's usually inferior to the standard, because this unpredictable set doesn't really affect the way bulky offense / more defensive teams deal with Deoxys-S, while Deoxys-S loses out on Taunt / Spikes.

Unpredictability is not a sufficient reason to ban. If it is unpredictable to the extent that Deoxys-S have totally different counters for the respective sets, then it warrants consideration. Deoxys-S's unpredictability doesn't go to this extent. I'd say Dragonite is more at fault for being unpredictable, especially in Rain, since the Rain MixNite has totally different counters from DD Nite / CB Nite. Even bulky SubDD Nite has to be dealt very differently compared to the standard offensive DD variant.