Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion

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alexwolf

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I'll start by saying that I love DetroitLOLcat's post and Glen's follow up. If you want to beat Deoxys-S, you're going to have to stop crying about its unpredictability, and use a little creativity. There are two good, viable leads (read: not obscure bullshit like ChopleTar) you can use to make Deoxys-S relatively useless for your opponent when you see it at team preview: Forretress and Ferrothorn. Let's take a look at some scenarios featuring either Pokemon independently.

Forretress
There are two possible outcomes:
1. Your opponent leads with Deoxys-S -- Do something that a Forretress does. Try to lay down hazards of your own. Gyro Ball. You can easily scout to see if their set is one of the following
(a) Its set is Taunt / Spikes / SR / (weak, uninvested coverage move that will never beat Forretress in a million years even if it's Hidden Power Fire which Sturdy blocks anyways)
Solution: If it taunts you, who gives a shit? Gyro Ball while they waste their time throwing down some hazards. When they've wasted enough time or you've gotten them into KO range (or even if you haven't), Rapid Spin. You can Rapid Spin 32 times if you really want to (Pressure). What if they send in a Ghost to block Rapid Spin? Unless your opponent is really overzealous and uses Taunt before switching (aka wasting its time and potentially losing Deoxys-S in the process), your Taunt has probably run out. Lay down hazards. If their switch-in Taunts you, switch to an appropriate counter, saving Forretress for later. Or just Volt Switch out. Yes I know Forretress suffers from major 4MSS and you can't stuff all of these moves on a set but these are the options you have, and I think it has just the right amount of moves to make using Deoxys-S a liability for your opponent.
(b) The Deoxys-S runs a screens set
Solution: If they Taunted on the first turn, wait to see if they put up a screen. If they do indeed put up a screen, send out something that can put up a substitute/set up themselves (remember, if they Taunt your new Pokemon, they are wasting their time), or just attack a few times. If you feel really silly and you happen to have something with Brick Break (yes I know it's a niche move and you're better off not using in most situations, but humor me), break their screens.

2. Your opponent doesn't lead with Deoxys-S or anything that will Taunt you -- hurray, lay down some hazards! If your opponent can lay hazards themselves, chances are they won't take the time to do so since they know you can just spin them away with little to no effort. Furthermore, you can pretty much rest assured knowing that Deoxys-S is running its Life Orb cleaner set that, as DetroitLOLcat puts it, hits like a ping pong ball covered in piss. And if they're not? They're either stupid or want to play some mind games with you by sending it out later in the match to lay down hazards. If they do, Forretress is likely still alive and can spin them away later.

tl;dr -- Forretress can waste Deoxys-S's time by just doing something, including getting rid of its hazards with relative ease.

Ferrothorn
I won't be nearly as detailed here since Forretress is probably the more diverse option for taking care of Deoxys-S, but Ferrothorn takes a different approach. According to Doug's calculator (I know it's not up to date for BW but it still gives you a good idea and it's the only one i have one me atm), 252 Atk Superpower isn't even guaranteed a 3HKO on standard Ferrothorn; not that it will try, which is exactly the point. Knowing this, here are some different scenarios.
1. For some reason they start with a Superpower:
They are OHKOed by one Gyro Ball thanks to the Def drop. (their Sash is broken by Iron Barbs). Outcome? No hazards.
2. They Taunt you.
(a) You tried to do something that gets blocked by Taunt. Now that it failed, use Gyro Ball. They either put up a screen or laid down a hazard at this point. Outcome? If they run a Focus Sash, 2 hazards. If not, 1 hazard.
(b) You used Gyro Ball. Outcome? Whether or not they ran Focus Sash, 1 hazard.
3. They lay down a hazard.
(a) You laid a hazard. Yay, 1 for you too! Now Gyro Ball. If they Taunt you after their first hazard, they lose and only get up 2 hazards at most.
(b) You Gyro Ball. Outcome: They get down 2 hazards.
4. They set up screens.
You're in the same boat as Forretress unfortunately. Use brute force or switch, that's all I can say.

tl;dr: Deoxys-S can only set up a maximum of 2 hazards against Ferrothorn, and it's pure suicide. Ferrothorn survives no matter what.

Again, these are two common, viable Pokemon that are not specialized for beating Deoxys-S; it's just a bonus.

Deoxys-S for OU.

P.S. I'd just like to say that this is an excellent thread and is a great start towards the new tiering procedures. A+
I am only going to talk about the bolded part.
So you say that if Deoxys-S Taunts you should stick around with Forretres another turn to see if it is actually a DS set...Fair enough!
In turn 2 Deoxys-S sets up Reflect while you do like 30% with Gyro Ball.
Now according to what you said you switch out to a poke that can setup itself.While you switch out Deoxys-S sets up the second screen.
In the third turn Deoxys-S Taunts you as you either attack and fail to ko or you try to setup and fail to setup.
Then in the 4th turn Deoxys-S finally sets up SR and goes down from your final hit.

So where in any of those turns did Deoxys-S wasted a turn of screens?
In the 3rd turn?It's ok because the sweepers still have 4-5 turns of screens to setup and destroy your team.
The only ways to avoid the above scenario are to:

a)have an extremely hard hitter that can 2hko or ohko Deoxys-S even behind screens
And the only poke in OU that comes closer to the OHKO on Deo behind a screen is Bandtar with Crunch which does :

606 Atk vs 432 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 242 - 288 (79.61% - 94.74%)

Not even a guaranteed ohko after sand damage.Quite the opposite Deoxys-S only has a very small chance of getting ohkoed after sand damage.

And also note that even if you manage to 2hko Deo-S he will still have managed to setup 2 screens or 1 screen and SR.

b)bring in a potential setuper which Deo might try to Taunt and smack it hard with the apropriate attack.

This is the most effective way to deal with him but still it is far from reliable since prediction goes both ways...
 
Pocket FYI no one uses those characteristics anymore as a means for effective tiering. Read Doug's "Characteristics of a Metagame" thread for how this works now.

And I'm not even citing unpredictability and versatility as a reason to ban. Deoxys-S gets spikes and SR out pretty much guaranteed, and since spinning sucks in BW now and it's relatively easy to keep your hazards up, offensive threats like Dragonite and Terrakion, which are already strong as hell on their own, get an even bigger boost. This has nothing to do with the offensive set whatsoever; Deoxys-S now did exactly what it did in DPP which is why we BANNED IT!
ToF we cannot compare BW OU to DPP OU. In DPP OU, Salamence was banned; in BW OU mence isn't even the most popular dragon anymore. Also, the ridiculous power creep means the lati twins, are now OU while in DPP they were banned.
 
Pocket FYI no one uses those characteristics anymore as a means for effective tiering. Read Doug's "Characteristics of a Metagame" thread for how this works now.

And I'm not even citing unpredictability and versatility as a reason to ban. Deoxys-S gets spikes and SR out pretty much guaranteed, and since spinning sucks in BW now and it's relatively easy to keep your hazards up, offensive threats like Dragonite and Terrakion, which are already strong as hell on their own, get an even bigger boost. This has nothing to do with the offensive set whatsoever; Deoxys-S now did exactly what it did in DPP which is why we BANNED IT!
The cool thing about BW OU is that team preview exists. If you feel very confident that a Deoxys is going to lead, you bring in something that can slap the shit out of Deoxys. Hell, use Tornadus and taunt it's ass or something. Scizor can rock it's socks and only allow it to get one screen or one hazard. It's really not as insane as you're making it out to be.
 
The cool thing about BW OU is that team preview exists. If you feel very confident that a Deoxys is going to lead, you bring in something that can slap the shit out of Deoxys. Hell, use Tornadus and taunt it's ass or something. Scizor can rock it's socks and only allow it to get one screen or one hazard. It's really not as insane as you're making it out to be.
Just wanted to point out that neither of those will be a consistent good lead against Deoxys. You could get Tornadus slammed by Psycho Boost/Mental Herb or have it set up screens on Scizor while you can't get hazards up, bringing the 5 sweeper team in ready to blast.
 
Just wanted to point out that neither of those will be a consistent good lead against Deoxys. You could get Tornadus slammed by Psycho Boost/Mental Herb or have it set up screens on Scizor while you can't get hazards up, bringing the 5 sweeper team in ready to blast.
Well no because CB Scizor 2ko's with Bullet Punch unless it's an all-out defensive spread with a +def nature. Which is entirely possible, I guess, but I've only really seen that on mostwanted's team.

EDIT: actually, mostwanted's team doesn't even use a +def nature, so it would still be a 2ko, which means you would only get one screen. In that situation, you just attack from whatever spectrum they didn't get a screen of up.
 

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I feel that if anything, the Dual Screen set is the most broken out of the three. There is literally nothing in the game stopping it from getting up both screens. You may say that a CB Tar can KO it through Reflect, but Deoxys only needs 12 EVs in Attack to OHKO with Superpower. If you decide to run a Chople Tar to counter that, you haven't countered anything since you lose the power of the Choice Band. Never mind the fact that it can always run a Sash to avoid any type of OHKO. Even against Scarf Terrakion, which can outspeed Deoxys and hit it hard with X-Scissor, Deoxys can just switch out. Now you're locked into X-Scissor, and there's nothing stopping you from being Intimidated, and becoming set-up fodder for something that only needs one turn of set-up to completely annihilate your team, like Cloyster.

Once again, you have six Pokemon on a team. If Deoxys happens to be your most important member, and you're not too worried if it dies, then there's definitely a problem. This is where the Support Characteristic comes into play. I won't quote it here, like others have, but to try to beat Dual Screen Deoxys-S you almost automatically lose to the rest of the team, most likely five great sweepers that make mistakes very costly. If you manage to beat that sweeper, you have four more to deal with, incredibly hard to take down if you didn't beat Deoxys after all. Deoxys makes already good sweepers broken, and in turn they make Deoxys broken. I am saying that Deoxys-S is Uber.
 
The cool thing about BW OU is that team preview exists. If you feel very confident that a Deoxys is going to lead, you bring in something that can slap the shit out of Deoxys. Hell, use Tornadus and taunt it's ass or something. Scizor can rock it's socks and only allow it to get one screen or one hazard. It's really not as insane as you're making it out to be.
Also wanted to point out that this works both ways. There's nothing stopping your opponent from leading with something that can beat your Deoxys counter and simply bringing in Deoxys a little later.
 

Pocket

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Mirroring Xephyr and (not so) Noob - BW OU and DPP OU are two different metas, with different conditions. You did not have Team Preview in DPP - now you can simply lead with the best match-up against Deoxys-S in every match you face a team with it. Team Preview allows you to more accurately pinpoint Deoxys-S set, and also lets you know if the opponent has a Spin blocker. Deoxys-S being unpredictable may be a good reason back in DPP, but not this gen (I know that wasn't your reason, ToF).

What was broken in DPP OU is not necessarily broken in BW OU (ie: Salamence, Latias, Latios, Mew, Wobbuffet), majorly due to the power creep, but Team Preview has a lot to do with it - Team Preview drastically reduces the difficulty in handling powerful threats, and you know the opponent's strategy from the get-go. A team with Deoxys-S is the easiest to read, and is hindered by Team Preview imo.

yee - Just wanted to point out that neither of those will be a consistent good lead against Deoxys. You could get Tornadus slammed by Psycho Boost/Mental Herb or have it set up screens on Scizor while you can't get hazards up, bringing the 5 sweeper team in ready to blast.
Of course Tornadus / Scizor may not be the best answer in certain situations, but that's what Team Preview is for. You see a team with Dragonite, Cloyster, and / or Volcarona, and that's gonna tell you that Deoxys-S is packing Dual Screens @ Light Clay, so no Psycho Boost, no Mental Herb - lead with Tornadus.

If it happens to pack Psycho Boost and Mental Herb, then that simply means it lacks Taunt, letting your Heatran set up SR, and there goes Dragonite's MultiScale / Volcaron's bulk.

That's the thing - Deoxys-S is versatile, but can't do the amount of support that you guys have been alluding to (it only has 4 moves, 1 item, 508 EVs). It's also predictable, because Team Preview is a big giveaway.
 

prem

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ToF we cannot compare BW OU to DPP OU. In DPP OU, Salamence was banned; in BW OU mence isn't even the most popular dragon anymore. Also, the ridiculous power creep means the lati twins, are now OU while in DPP they were banned.
the thing is, the lati were offensive threats themselves. deo-s is a support pokemon, and this huge power creep is making his job that much more important, allowing those new heavy hitters to hit even harder.

anyway, i personally believe deo-s should be uber for the effects it has on the metagame. consistantly getting hazards, while with the right set being able to destroy all spinners at some of its "counters" allows offensive pokemon like terakion and dragonite to really shine with all of the hazard support. this allows offensive teams to almost always get hazards up, and with deo-s decent spa and huge movepool, allow it to be an offensive threat as well (sr+3 attacks is by far my favorite set). hyper offensive teams also can afford to use deo-s because unlike most hazard users, you dont lose momentum by bringing deo-s out.

the unpredictibility arguement is terrible because its normally very easy to tell its set. the biggest issue with deo-s is that it doesnt matter if you know its set, you will almost always do its job anyway.

yes there are other pokemon who can run dual screens or spiker sets, such as azelf or jirachi, but none of them are nearly as effective as deo-s. deo-s completely shuts down the opposing team from doing any type of setting up with its untouchable speed, unlike jirachi, but still good bulk unlike azelf. another thing is that it can even run recover if it wants to and be able to set up hazards multiple times in a game.
 
@ ToF
...and what stops a spinner just killing it after Rapid Spin, not caring for it's coverage move (provided you scout it first)?
 

alexwolf

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For everyone bringing up the Support characteristic:

1) It's come to my attention that this stopped being a hard rule for governing tiering Pokemon in Gen 5? Someone shed some light on that.

2) How do you define "making it substantially easier for other Pokemon to sweep?" People are trying to negate Azelf's likeness to Deoxys-S simply because it doesn't outspeed some Scarf users and Dragon Dancers, but Azelf and even something like Jirachi could set up Dual Screen consistently if they wanted to.

And it doesn't stop there. What about Espeon who makes it easier to Baton Pass through Magic Bounce and do you keep the defining characteristic exclusive from Skarmory or Forretress who set up entry hazards? Most analyses I read are always emphasizing how KO damage ranges change significantly when Stealth Rock is in play. That fact alone is important since it means specific threats can clear out certain Pokemon earlier than they would have normally had to work for.

For everyone afraid of losing a Pokemon to unpredictability, that is going to happen on a relatively regular basis. "Man, I risk losing my Scizor to this thing because I could guess its set wrong." You risk losing a Heatran to a Celebi because you didn't know it had Earth Power on its Nasty Plot set. There goes your Volcarona counter. Oh but wait, you risk losing a Scizor to Celebi because it might be carrying HP Fire instead! I guess that means you'll start checking to see what kind of set it's running before you make decisions...at which point you run into a Celebi that has Thunder Wave and/or Stealth Rock. =/

I have no idea why one Pokemon is being singled out for carrying similar attributes as several other Pokemon in the same tier. Its only edge over said Pokemon is that it outruns more stuff, which means it possibly gets instant advantage at turn 1, depending on how its opponent plays. In any given battle, anyone could have an advantage at turn 1. Use ingenuity and intelligent play to turn it around.
The difference is the speed!
How can you neglect such a huge factor?

If you want to use DS Azelf i can now Trick my Scarf to you to limit your job,hit you very hard before you setup any screen or just Taunt you with something faster!
Also Azelf cannot get past Bandtar which screws him exactly as he does to Deoxys-S.
But Deo-S can Superpower this thing to hell while Azelf's best options are GK and HP fight which are 2hkos at best against any TTar.
Finally not that it matters greatly but with max HP investement Deo-S is around 4% bulkier in both sides behind screens.
So for example Deo-S has a tiny chance to get ohkoed by Bandtar's Crunch (2,76%) while Azelf has quite a bigger chance to get ohkoed (33,33%).
 
@ ToF
...and what stops a spinner just killing it after Rapid Spin, not caring for it's coverage move (provided you scout it first)?
The risk of a KO while scouting it might be discouraging. Or letting it get up Dual Screens and making your scouting a waste of a turn.
 

alexwolf

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Well no because CB Scizor 2ko's with Bullet Punch unless it's an all-out defensive spread with a +def nature. Which is entirely possible, I guess, but I've only really seen that on mostwanted's team.

EDIT: actually, mostwanted's team doesn't even use a +def nature, so it would still be a 2ko, which means you would only get one screen. In that situation, you just attack from whatever spectrum they didn't get a screen of up.
Scizor's CB BP has only a small chance(like 15%) to 2hko Deo-S after Reflect.I mean Reflect only for the second BP.
Here are the calcs :

591 Atk vs 216 Def & 304 HP (60 Base Power): 177 - 208 (58.22% - 68.42%)(before reflect)

591 Atk vs 432 Def & 304 HP (60 Base Power): 88 - 105 (28.95% - 34.54%)(after reflect)
 
I prefer keepin deoxys S in the metagame. I know that everyones team is not as gimmicky as mine, but I love tricking them into spikes, trapping them, and getting free set ups. without deo s, my life is meaningless.
 

Pocket

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anyway, i personally believe deo-s should be uber for the effects it has on the metagame. consistantly getting hazards, while with the right set being able to destroy all spinners at some of its "counters" allows offensive pokemon like terakion and dragonite to really shine with all of the hazard support. this allows offensive teams to almost always get hazards up, and with deo-s decent spa and huge movepool, allow it to be an offensive threat as well (sr+3 attacks is by far my favorite set). hyper offensive teams also can afford to use deo-s because unlike most hazard users, you dont lose momentum by bringing deo-s out.

the biggest issue with deo-s is that it doesnt matter if you know its set, you will almost always do its job anyway.

yes there are other pokemon who can run dual screens or spiker sets, such as azelf or jirachi, but none of them are nearly as effective as deo-s. deo-s completely shuts down the opposing team from doing any type of setting up with its untouchable speed, unlike jirachi, but still good bulk unlike azelf. another thing is that it can even run recover if it wants to and be able to set up hazards multiple times in a game.
You speak about Deoxys-S destroying Rapid Spinners with the "right moves," constantly getting hazards up, and then later state that Deo-S completely shuts down the opposing team from doing any type of setting up.

However, you just talked about at least 2 different Deoxys-S set there. A Deoxys-S set with Thunder / HP Fire to destroy Rapid Spinners could not have Taunt to prevent the opponent from setting up their own entry hazards / set up their own sweepers. Yes, you could have Thunder / HP Fire for Rapid Spinners, but now DD Dragonite / QD Volcarona / Heatran sets up on you, because you lack Taunt.

Yes, it doesn't matter what its set is, or how predictable it is, it will get its job done (for the most part), because it's fast. The only problem - it can only do 1 thing you mentioned, not all 3.

Deoxys-S is good, but not THAT good.
 
Pocket FYI no one uses those characteristics anymore as a means for effective tiering. Read Doug's "Characteristics of a Metagame" thread for how this works now.

And I'm not even citing unpredictability and versatility as a reason to ban. Deoxys-S gets spikes and SR out pretty much guaranteed, and since spinning sucks in BW now and it's relatively easy to keep your hazards up, offensive threats like Dragonite and Terrakion, which are already strong as hell on their own, get an even bigger boost. This has nothing to do with the offensive set whatsoever; Deoxys-S now did exactly what it did in DPP which is why we BANNED IT!
We banned it for one reason only, you didnt know what the opponent had on their team. When facing blindly against a team with deoxys-s, 1 couldn't know what to do. But with team preview it makes it all the more useless, now that the opponent would be able to determine (much easier) the set the deoxys-s is running. Tbh, team preview ruined any chance of deoxys-s ever becoming ubers again.
 
Okay, everyone stop arguing it's "unpredictable".
The reason Deo-S should be considered broken, IMO, is because of how much of an effect the DS set has on HO.

It seems people just skip my posts, so I'll BOLD the important parts.

- It doesn't matter if you know the set, you're not going to stop its support unless you're running CB Scizor/Tornadus on every freaking team you make.

- Azelf/Jirachi will never replace Deoxys-S because they lack that gigantic speed and the attacking options Deo-S has.
Lets say Deo-S gets banned, even if HO teams use Azelf, it's never going to be the same so don't theorymon that people are going to start using it. ScarfTar freaking rapes it unlike against Deo-S.

- Leading with your own spinner helps, yes, but the fucking screens are what matters. Okay, so you spin trying to get rid of his hazards and you find that he doesn't give a rat's ass and just sets up screens :*(
Unless you got a LO Starmie(Most unreliable spinner ever IMO <,<), you're not getting through(actually, I think even Starmie has trouble killing it). You might be able to 3HKO him, but that's just enough time for him to set up both screens and gtfo to then sweep your anus.

- Carrying Brick Break or a very specific pokemon(oh hey, run 1 of these 3, 2 of which are very niche to beat Deo-S :DDDD) is not a good argument against banning Deo-S. Do you really expect everyone to carry Scizor/Tornadus/Sableye to beat HO? Oh wait, they can't even beat it! Scizor can 2HKO through Reflect and is pretty much the only one you could throw unto any team, but lets say I get a Reflect up...that's all I need at this point. Switch in Volcarona/Dnite/whatever and now you're screwed.


NOTE: I am NOT saying you're going to insta-lose. I AM saying that you'll be in a big disadvantage early on and there's not much if anything at all you can truly do about it.
 
Scizor's CB BP has only a small chance(like 15%) to 2hko Deo-S after Reflect.I mean Reflect only for the second BP.
Here are the calcs :

591 Atk vs 216 Def & 304 HP (60 Base Power): 177 - 208 (58.22% - 68.42%)(before reflect)

591 Atk vs 432 Def & 304 HP (60 Base Power): 88 - 105 (28.95% - 34.54%)(after reflect)
You forgot to factor in technician. 90 base power.
 
HO with Dual Screen DS and 5 sweepers is stupid and not really used by any good players (that I know of). As Xephyr said, it's predictable, generic, and requires no real thought in team-building. Because every HO team is gonna be just like the one next to it save for a few sweepers, any well-built teams should have the means to built a HO team, and by extension all HO teams. It's not really the problem. The effectiveness of the LO set is kinda summed up by the 95 base attacking stats Deoxys possesses...

The hazards set, on the other hand, is used by a number of great players high up on the ladder, and not without good reason. I don't know why people are downplaying the hazards lead set here. It's really the main problem, and a massive boon to offensive teams. Suicide leads are the only way offensive teams can get hazards up, and DS is clearly the best around (massive speed, SR, Spikes, Taunt). Anything else crushes their momentum and allows for deadly sweepers to set up and tear through their paper-thin defenses. And even if you don't have a spinner, it's not too hard to make sure the only 3 viable spinners, Forretress, Tentacruel, and Starmie, can never find an opportunity to spin until its too late. The two slower ones will be hard pressed to switch in, take hazards damage, and then take another attack, and Starmie will be hard-pressed to switch in to take any attack at all. So that leaves "revenge-spinning", which can be prevented by making sure that you have something that can directly threaten their given spinner out after the death of one of their members. It requires careful playing, but it's by no means impossible. Plus, you can always run that Gengar to, if not completely shut their spinning hopes down, make spinning into a dangerous guessing-game.

If you're indeed able to establish your hazards and keep them up, it is huge for your team. Xephyr in particular referred to suicide leads as putting you a man down "just to get some hazards up". People last gen had whole pokemon dedicated to getting just SR on their side and keeping it from yours (Aerodactyl, Azelf...), but adding the layer or two of Spikes to the mix makes it almost twice as deadly. If you can manage to get SR and a layer of Spikes down (with DS, you can manage), you dock off 25%-12.5% from basically everything, every single switch-in. I know it's a stretch and generalization, but if you average that and have every mon switch in just once, you've just done over 100% damage total, making up for the lost mon. Realistically, they're gonna be switching a ton more, and the sacrifice Deoxys made will more than pay for itself. Suicide leads are extremely efficient for an offensive team.

As a dedicated user of this incredibly effective Deoxys-S set, I have to say that this alone merits its banning. It's EVERYWHERE, and without a spinner or Magic Bouncer, you're kind of screwed. If you don't want to run Starmie, Forretress, or Tentacruel (the latter two of which are extremely useless, I might add), you're gonna have to deal with the agony of watching your mons lose a quarter of their health every time they switch in to face the new threat.
 

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just a note, just because something is 'generic' or overused doesn't mean it's bad, probably the opposite in most cases.

by extension, ho with dual deoxys-s is good, and is used by good players because predictability doesn't really mean much when you have team preview and often time even though you know what is going to happen you can still lose.
 

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Okay, everyone stop arguing it's "unpredictable".
The reason Deo-S should be considered broken, IMO, is because of how much of an effect the DS set has on HO.

It seems people just skip my posts, so I'll BOLD the important parts.
I didn't ;)

- It doesn't matter if you know the set, you're not going to stop its support unless you're running CB Scizor/Tornadus on every freaking team you make.
Theres quite a few pokemon who you can't really stop from supporting. Thats a tough thing to ask for; if a support pokemon can't reliably utilize it's support its not going to be used. Wobbufett is a perfect example of a pokemon who's support you can't stop. then theres pokemon like Ferrothorn or even Politoed who you could say will always support unless you have a strong Fire/Fighting Stab or a weather changer.

- Azelf/Jirachi will never replace Deoxys-S because they lack that gigantic speed and the attacking options Deo-S has. Lets say Deo-S gets banned, even if HO teams use Azelf, it's never going to be the same so don't theorymon that people are going to start using it. ScarfTar freaking rapes it unlike against Deo-S.
If Deoxys was banned, yes another DS would take his place. Sure they might not do as good of a job but that just means Deoxys was the best DSer(it is :) If you're running DS Azelf and you see a Tyranitar in team preview; play carefully.

- Leading with your own spinner helps, yes, but the fucking screens are what matters. Okay, so you spin trying to get rid of his hazards and you find that he doesn't give a rat's ass and just sets up screens :*(
Unless you got a LO Starmie(Most unreliable spinner ever IMO <,<), you're not getting through(actually, I think even Starmie has trouble killing it). You might be able to 3HKO him, but that's just enough time for him to set up both screens and gtfo to then sweep your anus.
Yeah, guessing its the wrong set sucks, same can be said with numerous other pokemon. Team Preview is your weapon in those cases.

- Carrying Brick Break or a very specific pokemon(oh hey, run 1 of these 3, 2 of which are very niche to beat Deo-S :DDDD) is not a good argument against banning Deo-S. Do you really expect everyone to carry Scizor/Tornadus/Sableye to beat HO? Oh wait, they can't even beat it! Scizor can 2HKO through Reflect and is pretty much the only one you could throw unto any team, but lets say I get a Reflect up...that's all I need at this point. Switch in Volcarona/Dnite/whatever and now you're screwed.
I agree with what you're saying in the first sentence. But you don't have to carry Scizor/Tornadus/Sableye to beat HO because if so wouldn't those pokes be seeing huge usage spikes, bar scizor(but scizor just plain rocks). Very quick example, HO teams hate status; very few seem to carry ground types anymore and so thunderwave is killer. Also Deoxys usually is only get one shot at screens and they only last eight turns. The other team is on a short timer and when its up they usually fall apart.


NOTE: I am NOT saying you're going to insta-lose. I AM saying that you'll be in a big disadvantage early on and there's not much if anything at all you can truly do about it.
 

Aldaron

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I'm keeping up with every post in this thread and would like to mention I am currently neutral while slightly leaning towards OU.

Here is my philosophy: things that are questionable should be OU.

Here is what the uber crowd has to show: that Deoxys-s's ability to do what it does makes it broken.

Here is what a lot of posts are currently doing:

1.) telling me Deoxys-S has versatility with support and offense (irrelevant).
2.) telling me Deoxys-S is the best hazard setter (irrelevant).
3.) telling Deoxys-S is the best Screener (irrelevant).

Regarding #1: It doesn't matter if Deoxys-S's occasional surprise offensive set plus two main support sets (hazards and screens) provide versatility, it only matters if this versatility makes (or contributes towards) Deoxys-S being broken. If it does, how? Is it actually impossible (or improbable) for teams to deal with all three sets without overspecialization? And if so, is the overspecialization that would be required to deal with Deoxys-S so specialized that it is actively bad against other strategies?

Regarding #2: It doesn't matter if Deoxys-S is the best at setting up 2 layers (SR + 1 spikes) before going down. Convince me that mostly guaranteed SR + Spikes + 5 Pokemon is consistently more powerful than a standard team of 6 Pokemon.

Regarding #3: It doesn't matter if Deoxys-S is the best screener. Convince me that ability to set up Screens is consistently breaking games (though good luck on that one).

Here are my general thoughts on Deoxys-S after playing consistently on Smogon's OU ladder since Excadrill and Thundurus have been banned:

Deoxys-S is annoying. I have to focus on it first and foremost (Dragonite second, Sun third, Rain Stall fourth) when team building. I do tend to specialize in my methods of ensuring minimal Deoxys-S effectiveness...for example, running a Choice Scarf Infernape with U-turn to Espeon with Screens offensive team. Note, I don't think this is overspecialization; both are effective combination Pokemon for my standard no weather and Sun offense teams. When I see it and it leads, I know I'm going to try to minimize my switching (for Hazards) or keep certain things alive to deal with sweepers behind screens. However...I'm not noticing Deoxys-S absolutely causing a win condition in the majority of battles.

It's this lack of certainty that has me leaning OU atm. Sorry guys, I can't support a uber claim simply because it is "annoying," "lame," "centralizing," "boring," or "redundant."

I'm still entirely on the fence on this though (even if leaning slightly OU), so if people can convince me that Deoxys-S is a near unstoppable win condition...I can still change my stance.
 
Aldaron, while I respect your opinion, I disagreed with your proposal and I disagree with you now.

You are indeed correct that each of 1,2 & 3 are not broken. Many other Pokemon can fall into each category, being versatile/offensively strong, good at Hazards or good at Screens. The key word, though is or. No other pokemon can manage to do all three as effectively as Deo S, to the point where no one can actually guarantee to stop it from setting up at least 1 layer, be it spikes or screens. Yes, it can't do it all in one set, that I accept and agree with, but the problem lies in the effectiveness of all three, making it a completely random guess.

On the topic of Spiking, it is generally agreed that Skarmory is still a very, very effective Spiker. That thing is able to get Spikes up, and very efficiently at that. However, can a Skarmory pack as much offensive punch as Deo S can? Can a Skarmory set up Screens as effectively as Deo S can? Simple answer, no. It can't. I know when I see a Skarmory, to keep my levitate users and flying types alive, because they'll be far more likely to survive given they don't get hit by spikes. That is a strategy against Skarmory that, in all likelihood, is the most effective one. 9 times out of 10, a Skarmory will be a Spiker, as there are far better Pokemon for Offense and Screen roles. That means that even thou I'm taking a guess that it's a Spiker, it's a guess that I know will more often than not pay off. With Deo S, though, it's Spiker set is effective, so is its Screens set, and I've even personally had success with a Deo S lead running nothing but attacking moves. For Skarmory, my guess is one that has a high chance of being correct. For Deo S, I guess, and I have a 33% chance of getting it right. I also have the advantage that Skarmory is often used outside of the lead spot as well (leads do exist, but they're about just as common in my experience), so I can make an effort to force switches to Skarmory, which can easily be hit with a nice Fire attack on the way in, denting it to make it easier to get through. Deo S's Spiker and Screens leads are rarely used outside the lead position, and hence you can't dent it before it has already fired off a move. It's the same as saying Stealth Rock beats Ninjask. Sure, if Ninjask switches in, but who uses a Ninjask outside of the lead position? (let's not fill this thread with "who uses Ninjask?" comments... Please?)

Regarding Screens, yeah, i remember having a hard time stopping Bronzong setting up screens as well. Thing is, though, that Bronzong is guaranteed a layer. Not only is it as often as not used outside the lead position, making it easy to land a hit on the switch in, it's also very very obvious. I see a Bronzong and a few sweepers, I know it's likely Dual Screens. If I see a Marowak with Bronzong, I know it's Trick Room, and thus don't have to worry (as much) about Screens. Yes, I can do the same with Deo S, but the problem is if I see a team full of Sweepers, that doesn't tell me anything about Deo S at all. I've personally used to great effect a team of six sweepers, leading with a total Offense Deoxys sweeper with Life Orb. That, I know for sure, works. Everyone thinks Deoxys will go for Spikes or Screens, then I proceed to kill their lead on the first turn with the appropriate coverage move. Also, sweepers can benefit from either screens or spikes/SR, so even if I see Haxorus, SpecsLatios and whatever other sweeper, I still don't know if I should lead with a spinner, a Brick Breaker (lol Brick Break) or my wall in case this Deo S is a sweeper itself. I see a Bronzong, the rest of the team gives it away as to what set, and I can be pretty certain my guess will pay off (let's face it, a Marowak under screens is useless without Trick Room, and a Sweeper under Trick Room is so slow it needs screens). With Deo S, it's a matter of all three options being equally likely, and I can only prevent one, while the other two blow up in my face.

I think I've now covered Screens, Spikes/SR and Versatility. Now comes the problem that for me is the last straw. As I've said, Deo S is a very effective Pokemon at all three jobs, and there is no way Team Preview, even with the ability to see your opponent's Pokemon, can tell you which set Deoxys is running. At best, you can change your 33% chance to a 50% chance, by eliminating the possibility of a Sweeper Deoxys S. That's all you can really do to improve our situation. Now comes the hard part. Let's say, I get lucky, and I know for a fact it's not the sweeper lead set. And, let's say I'm running both a Brick Breaker and a Spinner. Which do I send out? If I send out my Brick Breaker (again, lol Brick Break, but bear with me), and it lays spikes on Turn 1, what then? My first move would obviously have been a resisted Brick Break, and then next turn regardless if I switch or attack with a coverage move, it will get off the second layer of spikes. So, what if I lead with a Spinner? But what about if my 50% guess happens to be wrong, and it sets up screens? Regardless I attack on Turn 1 or Spin, either way it's getting up the second screen before I can kill it on turn 2, and that's even assuming I can manage a 2HKO. Yes, if I guess right, I'm fine. But at best, that's a 50% chance, and thats if I know that A) it isn't the offensive lead, and B) I pack both a spinner and a Brick Breaker.

I guess the point is that it's not what each set that Deoxys S can pull off that makes it broken, it's the fact that it's impossible to know which set its running before its too late. Screens can let a sweeper easily knock out half your team before you knock it out (CB Haxorus under screens is not nice to face), and a Spikes set can either allow it's teammates to sweep, while 2HKOs become OHKOs because you're racking up spikes damage, or can allow a balanced team to slowly rip you to shreds as they force switches. It's not any of 1,2 or 3, it's all of them in one pokemon that's broken.
 
there are so many pointless things being brought up in this thread, on both sides (but ESPECIALLY the ubers camp)

here is a list of pokemon youll likely see set up with dual screen deoxys-s with what is probably the most common set run on dual screen deoxys teams:

lum dragonite (dd/outrage/fire punch/earthquake)
life orb terrakion (sd/rp/stone edge/close combat)
lefties/lo scrafty (dd/crunch/ice punch/hi jump kick or drain punch)
lo salamence (dd/outrage/eq/fire blast)
lo lucario (sd/close combat/extremespeed/crunch or ice punch or bullet punch)
lo scizor (sd/bug bite/bullet punch/superpower)
lefties mew (nasty plot/psyshock/aura sphere/flamethrower)
lefties celebi (nasty plot/giga drain/psychic/earth power or baton pass)
white herb gorebyss (shell smash/baton pass/surf/hidden power grass)
white herb or life orb cloyster (shell smash/icicle spear/rock blast/hydro pump or ice shard)
lefties or lo gyarados (dragon dance/waterfall/earthquake/stone edge)
lum haxorus (dragon dance/outrage/taunt/earthquake)

there are a ton more like ddttar, cm virizion, sd landorus, agiligross, etc but in my own experience i dont find these teams common enough to warrant placing them on this list - lets look at what pokemon in ou (as in have an ou analysis) currently beat these pokemon with screens up and we can assume 1 layer of rocks (although itll likely be spikes + rocks but whatever) - because we are assuming they have 5 pokemon to set up with, then we can assume that the pokemon they bring in will have the exploitable advantage vs you, allowing for basically a free boost:

*underlined means it can win vs this specific mon that i listed while its under screens

dragonite at +1 atk/+1 spe
Blissey - it can twave but because dnites usually carry lum, it means the dnite now has +2 under screens
Breloom - cant touch it outside of wasting lum
Bronzong - cant touch it, dd fire punch hurts
Celebi - can psong to eventually force it out or twave but dnite beats it and something else because of screens and multiscale - then another sweeper comes in - psong makes this noteworthy enough
Cloyster - actually beats it if it runs ice shard...sr +dd outrage hurts it a lot tho...not really relevant but its funny how cloysters are only found basically on dual screen ho teams and its the best bet so far...
Conkeldurr - dnite destroys
Deoxys-S - lol once again, the suspect in question, can somewhat revenge (multiscale + ls kind of kill ice beam tho...) but will pretty much just die right away to +1 outrage
Dragonite - +1 outrage easily kills with sr
Espeon - useless, dnite kills it
Ferrothorn - lum blocks twave if it can survive the +1 fire punch, cant touch dnite outside of surviving fpunch and seeding ... so dnite basically takes down the premiere wall
Forretress - dd fire punch, cant do anything back - dnite will proly be setting up on him in the first place because hes used to defend against deoxys-s
Gastrodon - dd outrage does a shitload (maybe ko..) while you cant really touch it
Gengar - +1 outrage kos
Gliscor - the first thing that really begins to stand up to dnite..it can protect stall turns (altho this puts it at risk of ddnite getting more dds) and also threaten with ice fang. this would pretty much be a dud if it didnt have such respectable defense with the ability to stall turns
Gyarados - +1 outrage with sr does a ton (moxie dies but intimidate can live) but gyara cant really touch it back on any standard set outside of the rare ice fang (which is more of a ho only move)
Haxorus - +1 outrage kos
Heatran - +1 eq kos, if its got the rare balloon, its actually in a good position since it forces outrage - however lum nullifies confusion and tran cant do too much if it doesnt have dpulse (rare)
Hydreigon - +1 outrage kos so it needs to be scarfed but it also wont kill dnite with multi so screens hinders it
Infernape - not a chance to win, its an easy 2 dd situation
Jellicent - lum nullifies burn getting another dd, ls protects against ice beam so now its a +2 ddnite
Jirachi - +1 eq hurts, lum protects vs body slam
Landorus - +1 outrage, scarfed versions can u-turn to break multi or go right into hp ice the problem is dnite will survive with ls/reflect so it actually gets 2 dds
Latias - +1 outrage kos, dnite still takes its attacks wonderfully with multi and ls so its proly getting to +2 if everythings intact...
Latios - wont risk the extra dd here because the power jump, but +1 outrage kos
Lucario - +1 eq or fpunch, all it can do it exspeed which is pretty much pointless vs multi and reflect
Magnezone - +1 eq kos
Metagross - +1 eq again rocks it
Mienshao - it can fake out to break multi and stall out a turn but is then forced to switch, giving dnite another dd - its a cycle that repeats but the output ends in a ddnite sweeping
Ninetales - cant touch ddnite outside of wisp which lum nullifies
Politoed - +1 outrage kos offensive, if its really bulky and survives, the most it can do is psong which is enough to at least stop it from sweeping
Reuniclus - ddnite loves this if its cm recover, its a free +2, trick room breaks multi or does meh damage with ls and eventually dies - actually gives the opponent an advantage tho because most set up sweepers are fast
Rotom-W - ddnite laughs, lum nullifies wisp but ddnite will outrage first in case of trick
Salamence - +1 outrage kos
Scizor - +1 fire punch kos, bp doesnt do enough to really hurt you with reflect and multi active (or even reflect)
Scrafty - +1 outrage will do a lot, luckily it survives ice punch so even if it doesn't ko, scrafty dies next turn
Skarmory - finally "answer 1" - it cant really damage dnite at all but it phazes it out which im counting as a victory at this point
Starmie - would likely be the lead so its proly just ice beaming dnite for decent damage (guaranteed no sr if starmie leads tho, so you get multi + ls) and +1 outrage does a lot (ddnite will be going for this obviously)
Swampert - i guess this actually wins kind of as it phazes it out but once again, cant do anything past that...
Tentacruel - cant touch dnite +1 eq kos
Terrakion - cb stone edge can ko through reflect but +1 eq outspeeds and ohkos. scarf stone edge wont kill right away, especially if multis up, so you are going to lose terra here
Toxicroak - dd eq kos spunch doesnt do much
Tyranitar - dd eq my man! cb ttar can stone edge but dnite wont risk it - otherwise, ttar is likely the lead
Vaporeon - dd outrage really hurts and vappys proly gonna phaze just to stall out the damn screens, otherwise vappy dies because ice beam cant win
Venusaur - lum nullifies spowder if sun is up, cant really hurt dnite
Virizion - once again +1 outrage or even fpunch kills and at most it hp ices which just isnt enough
Volcarona - yeah dnite +1 outrage ko etc if it leads to set up vs deoxys-s, nite will just spam outrage right away for the 2hko

so uh...6 pokemon in ou (and ill make it 7 for quagsire) can effectively stop dnite from flat out sweeping the entire team with screens and the most that any of them can do is..phaze it out.....

ok im tired so im going to edit this list in (if anyone wants to help thatd be great) but this is basically going to be a reoccuring theme - the type coverage and bulk of the sweepers coupled with deoxys-s who basically guarantees screens and 1 hazard is fucking overpower like crazy - as you can see from just dnite so far, you bring in the wrong thing vs deoxys and dnite basically sets up and sweeps

and they have FOUR other pokemon besides this hypothetical dnite incase you use something to counter dnite to beat deoxys

its impossible to handle this offensive pressure is basically what im getting at...ive played good players using dual screens and i find myself helpless often...ive played many a shit ones who dont know how or when to bring in sweepers ... please dont judge based off those people - i just want to provide the facts of what these MULTIPLE pokemon can do under deoxys-s providing screens because the fact of the matter is there was a POWER INCREASE brought to b/w and the defensive side can not keep up with screens ... its pretty much im-fucking-possible lol

i hope this at least makes a few people reconsider deoxys-s because i can tell you right now - nothing is as good as it for setting up screens so this wont be a reoccurring problem with azelf or some shit - but with deoxys-s, this kind of defense given to the games best attackers is way too overpowered.
 
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