Different Playing Styles - Discussion

#26
Pokemon that can "break" Stall, in other words what threaten Groudon Forretress Blissey Giratina

Here`s what I (and others) have found

- Mixed Dialga / Bulk Up Dialga
- Mixed Palkia
- Ho-oh
- Sub Seed Shaymin-s
- Darkrai
- SafeGuard Lati@s
- Taunt / Sub + CM Mewtwo / Choice Scarf Mewtwo (with Trick)
- Physically / Specially Defensive Mewtwo
- Specs Kyogre / RestTalk Kyogre
- Mixed Giratina-o / Sub CM Giratina-o
- Mixed / SD / DD rayquaza
- Wobbuffet
 
#27
I need to re make my heavy offense thread after seeing this! This is an excellently written thread, and covers 3 different styles! I should make one for ou too. If I were to play ubers, I'd definitely go with offense.
 
#28
Pokemon that can "break" Stall, in other words what threaten Groudon Forretress Blissey Giratina

Here`s what (and others) have found

- Mixed Dialga
- Mixed Palkia
- Ho-oh
- Physically / Specially Defensive Mewtwo
- Sub Seed Shaymin-s
- Darkrai
- Scarf Mewtwo with Trick
- RestTalk Kyogre
- Bulk Up Dialga
- SafeGuard Lati@s
- Taunt / Sub + CM Mewtwo
if your going on pokemon that simply threaten those four listed, I suggest adding the following:
-Specs Kyogre
-Mixed Giratina-o
-Mixed / SD / DD rayquaza
-Wobb

im pretty sure there are more but those 4 listed all break a stall core very often. Specs kyogre is why stall teams almost always have a palkia/latias on it.
 
#29
I was discussing this on IRC today, and it should probably be mentioned.

Stall players often expect that Blissey will die. In fact, sometimes Blissey is sacrificed to create an endgame scenario where the stall player will win, though I don't have an example for this off the top of my head. Because of this, they often carry a scarfer for a couple reasons: 1) to check threats in case Blissey is dead or crippled prematurely; and 2) to defeat an offense player in such an endgame scenario should it arise. Many stall players are moving towards Palkia in terms of a preferred scarfer, but Dialga is more than viable due to its ability to handle SDRay in a pinch.

Also, Pressure Stall + Phazer, or Sub/Roost/Roar or Toxic, Ho-oh with is just horrible for stall. You don't even need Groudon support for it to work. Its probably about as good as or better than the Light Screen + Toxic staller set.
 
#30
I know that`s why i often (if not always) have a scarfer in my team, that`s often something like Mewtwo (it can Trick away it`s scarf what often helps me when facing other stall teams), or Dialga, I used Jirachi once due to it`s ability to Trick away it`s scarf, and beat many physical set up sweepers (SD/DD Ray, Lucario).

And thpse Ho-oh sets are especially annoying, but I mentioned Ho-oh because all of his sets are annoying
 
#32
You'll have to define what you mean by defensive balance. It may very well be that you are playing a more defensive variant of bulky offense.
 
#33
Okay, I've decided that it would be best for me to learn to play stall (well). I think I have the team building part down, but I'm looking for an experienced stall player to teach me the ins and outs of Uber Stall.
 
#34
Okay, I've decided that it would be best for me to learn to play stall (well). I think I have the team building part down, but I'm looking for an experienced stall player to teach me the ins and outs of Uber Stall.
I'd recommend Jibaku, or Ibojangles, or even Gen. Empoleon. They're all good stall players.
 

bojangles

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#35
Okay, I've decided that it would be best for me to learn to play stall (well). I think I have the team building part down, but I'm looking for an experienced stall player to teach me the ins and outs of Uber Stall.
In ubers there are different forms of stall, such as modern/classic stall, which is exactly what it sounds like (ie the stall team i linked to in the OP). Theres also QuickStall, of which i posted a RMT of recently. Of course, theres many pokemon who can fit in these team types too, like Ludicolo.

While Classic/Modern Stall is more true to its namesake, it can be seen as more boring (for some). You have more bulky pokemon, like Blissey and Giratina. On the other hand, theres QuickStall, which incorporates more offensive pokemon, like Mewtwo or Shaymin-S. Basically, it comes down to how stallish you want to go; both are equally effective when used correctly.
 
#36
The basic premise of offensive play is to either continually batter the opponent with strong attacks or to set up a sweeper and sweep as much as you can.

Is there a similar, basic overriding premise to stall?
 
#37
From the stall I've had trouble with, it's having 1 or 2 guys that can threaten your stall -breakers. For example, I use a Giratina-o that attacks physically and specially. Choice Scarf Palkia and other Giratina pose a problem for me. Every time I try to beat a wall with that Giratina, that threat manages to find a way in and force Giratina out. Obviously most stall teams punish you for switching out, and so having to switch out Giratina each time will end up in him dying after a period of time. That's one way stall can work in my opinion, but I'm not too into stall. You could try using one special wall, one physical wall, one mixed wall, and 3 guys designed to take out any mixed attackers or overwhelming attackers.
 
#38
The basic premise of offensive play is to either continually batter the opponent with strong attacks or to set up a sweeper and sweep as much as you can.

Is there a similar, basic overriding premise to stall?
Well, the concept of the 'goal of stall' is something that transcends tiers, and is somewhat controversial. Here are some candidates for that goal.

"To set up and protect entry hazards, force switches, and so wear down the opponent." (quite specific)

"To defeat all relevant offensive threats through defensive play." (bit more general)

"To not lose." (most general, most controversial)
 
#39
Well, the concept of the 'goal of stall' is something that transcends tiers, and is somewhat controversial. Here are some candidates for that goal.

"To set up and protect entry hazards, force switches, and so wear down the opponent." (quite specific)

"To defeat all relevant offensive threats through defensive play." (bit more general)

"To not lose." (most general, most controversial)

A traditional stall team would follow the first statement, the other 2 are true to an extant. I'd say the more correct statement is, "To defeat anything stands in our way, while using defensive, and offense methods as necessary", because traditional does utilize some offense to neutralize certain threats, such as using Scarf Palkia or Latias to beat Specs Kyogre. Modern stall teams even incorporate some sort of offense, for example quick stall has Ho-oh, who can play either role tbh, as long as sr is off the field. The 3rd statement is true for any team, offense or stall based.
 
#40
A traditional stall team would follow the first statement, the other 2 are true to an extant. I'd say the more correct statement is, "To defeat anything stands in our way, while using defensive, and offense methods as necessary", because traditional does utilize some offense to neutralize certain threats, such as using Scarf Palkia or Latias to beat Specs Kyogre. Modern stall teams even incorporate some sort of offense, for example quick stall has Ho-oh, who can play either role tbh, as long as sr is off the field. The 3rd statement is true for any team, offense or stall based.
A traditional stall team doesn`t even have ScarfPalkia and Latias doesn`t beat SpecsOgre it scares it out, so there is no offense on traditional stall teams.
 
#41
So there's traditional stall, which from my understanding is walls trying to wear down the opponents.

then there's modern stall, which incorperates offense as necesary.

What's quick stall again?
 

bojangles

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#43
A traditional stall team doesn`t even have ScarfPalkia and Latias doesn`t beat SpecsOgre it scares it out, so there is no offense on traditional stall teams.
Um, the reason Latias scares out SpecsOgre is because it can beat it. Water Spout is only a 2HKO and you outspeed it, so you can Calm Mind / Recover / Grass Knot to either weaken the attack or recover HP. Ogre will also take huge damage from a +1 or +2 Grass Knot / Thunder. The only way Latias gets beaten is if Kyogre predicts it and uses Ice Beam, but I can say the same with Palkia if Kyogre uses Thunder.
 

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#44
A traditional stall team doesn`t even have ScarfPalkia and Latias doesn`t beat SpecsOgre it scares it out, so there is no offense on traditional stall teams.
Why does a pokemon switch out from another pokemon? The reason is simply because the other pokemon beats it. Latias will without a doubt beat a Choice Specs Kyogre unless by some sheer luck the Kyogre user picks Ice Beam and critical hits. Latias has a massive Special Defense and a good Special Attack stat which it can easily hit Kyogre with super effective Grass Knots weakening Water Spout. Since you've now forced Kyogre out you can most likely take damage off of it when it comes in, thanks to entry hazards, which is the #1 priority when using an Uber stall team. The team will usually fail if you don't get your hazards down fast enough.

edit: ibo so fast
 

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#45
Actually, Choice Specs Kyogre using Ice Beam on the Latias switch means Latias will half to either Recover spam or attack. If it does the former, it risks a crit or freeze, if it does the latter it won't OHKO and will be KOed in return.

657 Atk vs 540 Def & 333 HP (100 Base Power): 176 - 208 (52.85% - 62.46%)

Standard Specs Kyogre versus standard Latias. However, Latias can still win if it choses to Calm Mind, but there's still an increasing risk of a Freeze or crit. Never the less, it's the safest option. I definetley prefer Ludicolo or Quagsire as Kyogre counters though !_!
 
#46
I myself play a style that implies both stall and offense(but don't call it semi stall because it is not!). The idea is simple: With all the crazy stuff running amok in ubers it isn't hard to find some wall breakers(for example:Mixed/Bu-Dialga). The rest of the team is build around that focusing on synergy. In my opinion good synergy can make up for the lack of walls. If you predict well enough any attacker can be a tank as well.
 

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