DLC2 Crown Tundra Speculation Thread [SPOILERS]

[TravisB]

Whats the fastest we could potentially expect quick bans in a situation like this? Asking because it looks like OU is going to be a complete mess at first with these tier decisions.

 

[musiquepkmn]

As tempting as it may be, I don't think adding either Zamazenta form to OU would be advisable. Sure, its great bulk and the +1 boost from Dauntless Shield makes revenge-killing it a pain, but actually my main reason for thinking this to be unadvisable is less due to Zama being overtly broken and more because of how its presence would inevitably affect the meta; it mainly becomes unhealthy when you take into account the greater meta. Let's think for a second: Zama is a hard hitting physical attacker with no recovery and no boosting outside of Howl/Work Up; despite its cons, it will likely be spammed on ladder due to high stats and having great bulk and speed for an offensive threat, plus a decently diverse attacking movepool. What do you think is going to be the natural best answer to a mon like that? Simple-

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While I admit I'm not the most knowledgeable on how the meta would adapt to a threat such as Zama, to me the addition of either Zama form would inherently make STALL an even more central force than it currently is (especially after all the overwhelming offensive threats get banned). Both Zama STABs do nothing to Toxapex, and its two best options for Pex- Wild Charge and Psychic Fangs- can both be walled by common partners like Hippowdon and Tangrowth or Mandibuzz and Corviknight, respectively. That's in addition to returning STALL partners like Lando-T, whose Intimidate especially neuters Crowned form due to its lack of boosting item. Simply put, I can't help but be afraid of STALL would quite possibly become even more dominant in order to keep Zama in bay, and this kind of warping is something I find both overly-centralizing and plain disgusting. Sure, this hypothetical STALL dominance probably wouldn't take hold until the meta settles, which will probably take two months or so (remember how long it took for Skarmory to take off in OU?), but assuming Zama did make it past that initial stretch, fat mons that can recover off its damage and possibly cripple it with status (namely burn) rising up to counter it is practically a given. Considering how STALL currently dominates OU to counter Urshifu, just imagine how ladder would have to adapt to an Urshifu with superior defenses, really good speed and no 4x weakness. Doesn't sound too appealing, does it? So, while Zamazenta has some obvious shortcomings (4MSS, little boosting, no recovery, Crowned's item lock), I still think that it has the potential to warp OU in a way where it's almost unplayable*, and so I think OU would be better off without it.

*Note: claims of unplayability are mainly meant for dramatic effect. I am not being literal with this term, and am largely just signaling how unappealing I would find that meta.

I think that the without a huge amount of quickbans (and even then), the meta will still end up in stall. There are just sooo many new threats that require specific counters that it's hard to get close to encompassing all of them in 2-3 slots for a balance team. Zamazenta-C specifically, if unbanned, will probably not push this because it can't 2HKO the best physical walls on the tier like Tangrowth, Hippowdon, Toxapex, and Amoongus, all of which fit nicely on Balance.

Whats the fastest we could potentially expect quick bans in a situation like this? Asking because it looks like OU is going to be a complete mess at first with the tier decisions

hopefully somewhere within the first couple days.

 

[Hobie]

As tempting as it may be, I don't think adding either Zamazenta form to OU would be advisable. Sure, its great bulk and the +1 boost from Dauntless Shield makes revenge-killing it a pain, but actually my main reason for thinking this to be unadvisable is less due to Zama being overtly broken and more because of how its presence would inevitably affect the meta; it mainly becomes unhealthy when you take into account the greater meta.

I'm pretty new to tiering so please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think this isn't how Smogon does tiering, if a mon is broken it will be banned, regardless of how healthy it is for the metagame. So the decision of banning/allowing a mon will happen independent of if it makes the tier a stallfest or an HO dominated meta or a haven for balance.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

As tempting as it may be, I don't think adding either Zamazenta form to OU would be advisable. Sure, its great bulk and the +1 boost from Dauntless Shield makes revenge-killing it a pain, but actually my main reason for thinking this to be unadvisable is less due to Zama being overtly broken and more because of how its presence would inevitably affect the meta; it mainly becomes unhealthy when you take into account the greater meta. Let's think for a second: Zama is a hard hitting physical attacker with no recovery and no boosting outside of Howl/Work Up; despite its cons, it will likely be spammed on ladder due to high stats and having great bulk and speed for an offensive threat, plus a decently diverse attacking movepool. What do you think is going to be the natural best answer to a mon like that? Simple-

View attachment 283490S View attachment 283491TView attachment 283492 A View attachment 283493LView attachment 283494 LView attachment 283496

While I admit I'm not the most knowledgeable on how the meta would adapt to a threat such as Zama, to me the addition of either Zama form would inherently make STALL an even more central force than it currently is (especially after all the overwhelming offensive threats get banned). Both Zama STABs do nothing to Toxapex, and its two best options for Pex- Wild Charge and Psychic Fangs- can both be walled by common partners like Hippowdon and Tangrowth or Mandibuzz and Corviknight, respectively. That's in addition to returning STALL partners like Lando-T, whose Intimidate especially neuters Crowned form due to its lack of boosting item. Simply put, I can't help but be afraid of STALL would quite possibly become even more dominant in order to keep Zama in bay, and this kind of warping is something I find both overly-centralizing and plain disgusting. Sure, this hypothetical STALL dominance probably wouldn't take hold until the meta settles, which will probably take two months or so (remember how long it took for Skarmory to take off in OU?), but assuming Zama did make it past that initial stretch, fat mons that can recover off its damage and possibly cripple it with status (namely burn) rising up to counter it is practically a given. Considering how STALL currently dominates OU to counter Urshifu, just imagine how ladder would have to adapt to an Urshifu with superior defenses, really good speed and no 4x weakness. Doesn't sound too appealing, does it? So, while Zamazenta has some obvious shortcomings (4MSS, little boosting, no recovery, Crowned's item lock), I still think that it has the potential to warp OU in a way where it's almost unplayable*, and so I think OU would be better off without it.

*Note: claims of unplayability are mainly meant for dramatic effect. I am not being literal with this term, and am largely just signaling how unappealing I would find that meta.

Zamazenta-C would have checks from offense as well, such as Cinderace, Garchomp, Tapu Koko, Landorus-T, Hex/Wisp Dragapult, Rotom-Heat all of which can offensively pressurize Zama-C. Don't forget that Zama-C is also very vulnerable to status and it's not strong enough to KO even HO mons, let alone stall/walls.

 

[taziathegreat]

So what kind of role does dragapult have going into crowned tundra, it faces a lot of competition.

I don’t see how it continues to use specials sets when naga, the lati@s and the spectrier forms would all give it serious competition.
Even it’s physical set up sets have a lot of new competition

I’d imagine the best set for pult would probably be some uturn set that takes advantage of the two things it has over most of its peers, the natural speed and uturn.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

So what kind of role does dragapult have going into crowned tundra, it faces a lot of competition.

I don’t see how it continues to use specials sets when naga, the lati@s and the spectrier forms would all give it serious competition.
Even it’s physical set up sets have a lot of new competition

I’d imagine the best set for pult would probably be some uturn set that takes advantage of the two things it has over most of its peers, the natural speed and uturn.

Naganadel would likely get banned, the tier can't handle it after a nasty plot boost. After Naga is banned, Pult will do it's usual job

 

[Sickist]

Can ya'll chill on the unbans? I'm sure the mod team doesn't appreciate the constant one liners, either. At this time, It's assumable that nothing will be unbanned except what was voted on. Anyways, with that out of the way, I wanted to talk about Tornadus-Therian.

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave / Focus Blast
- Focus Blast / U-turn

This is what I'm thinking the standard NP set will look like, give or take. Obviously, there will probably be a defensive defog/utility set like usual. However, this is the most problematic thing to me, as far as TornT is concerned. There are absolutely no switch-ins to this. Hurricane already hits really hard, only really tanked by Blissey, Tyranitar, and barely the Rotoms (they barely eat canes and focus miss just removes them), and Tornadus-T will get many opportunities (in theory) to come in and setup on defensive staples like Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Toxapex (assuming physdef variants. toxic will be annoying, same with knock, but if its tspikes then its free NP). U-turn could be paired with Focus Blast and Magnezone ig but NP+3 attacks makes the most sense to me. Boots make Tornadus-T stupid hard to wear down with Regenerator, which give it even MORE chances to break. Overall, I think this set will be what pushes Tornadus-T over the edge for me, but we won't know for sure until the meta settles.

 

[taziathegreat]

Naganadel would likely get banned, the tier can't handle it after a nasty plot boost. After Naga is banned, Pult will do it's usual job

Would it ? Even without naga (I’m not even sold on it getting banned) I don’t see why you’d use a non scarf special set with the latis and the ghost horses (assuming at least 1 have >=100 speed) running around.

 

[WolfishOne]

Would it ? Even without naga (I’m not even sold on it getting banned) I don’t see why you’d use a non scarf special set with the latis and the ghost horses (assuming at least 1 have >=100 speed) running around.

1) The horses haven't even been confirmed but assuming so, it's likely they will have ndw/ndm BST so will be auto banned
2) Dragapult has a much more formidable STaB combo than the latis and has more power if you're focusing on speed due to hex and specs since latis forgoe their own LO or specs or even soul dew when running scarf
3) U turn is so damn good.

 

[taziathegreat]

1) The horses haven't even been confirmed but assuming so, it's likely they will have ndw/ndm BST so will be auto banned
2) Dragapult has a much more formidable STaB combo than the latis and has more power if you're focusing on speed due to hex and specs since latis forgoe their own LO or specs or even soul dew when running scarf
3) U turn is so damn good.

1. It’s no way the horses and the rider forms both have cover legend bts stats, that’s an unheard of amount of high BTS Pokémon for a single gen it’s more reasonable to assume they have sub legend stat lines 550-600 ish

2. The Latis have stronger dragon moves and superior coverage and more sp attack , as does Naga. While the horse will likely have a weaker stab but more sp attack with snowballing capabilities. I wouldn’t call pult straight up outclassed but unless you desperately need the speed pult provides the other choices have a strong case

3. So we agree going forward it’s best set will probably focus on being the best dragon pivot in the game

 

[Dr. Mint]

Thanks for the info, Finch! Well, I guess here I go with the "will they/won't they" speculation about which returning Ubers will stay in OU or leave, quick ban or otherwise. Should be fun.

Kyurem-B

My hopes for Kyurem-Black staying in OU are not particularly high on first blush. It got Icicle Spear so it no longer has to pull from its Special move pool to use Ice STAB but it very well still could. 120 Special Attack is not bad at all, plus it's got moves like Earth Power, Freeze-Dry, Ice Beam and, of course, Draco Meteor. And, naturally, it's even better physically at 170, with Dragon Dance to boot if it so chooses. In fact, I have my eye on an Ubers set with Substitute, D-Dance, Icicle Spear and Fusion Bolt that I'd be curious to test out in OU while it's around. On the other hand, it doesn't really have a way of boosting its special moves to be THAT scary and, of course, it's got fellow potential Uber Melmetal to contend with who, without Earth Power, it can't even touch. And even with Earth Power, it has to predict the switch or eat a Double Iron Bash. Galarian Weezing is a similar story except, instead of a knockout, it threatens a Will-O-Wisp. Though, to be honest, Galarian Weezing itself is a pretty rare sight. And frankly, so is Aegislash, who can also play King's Shield mind games with the dude. Toxapex and Clefable can take one hit banded from Kyurem (even a fully invested Fusion Bolt when it comes to the former) but ONLY one, so they're not safe switch-ins at all. And if it's Life Orb+D-Dance... well, good luck. Ultimately, Kyurem-Black has some answers but I think we can expect a suspect test for this thing at least.

Melmetal

I think it was a good call to retest Melmetal. I certainly think it'll be a threat and a half with its good physical bulk and heavy damage output, especially with Choice Band, but not unwallable. (That's a term, right?) Its biggest letdown is its Speed, which I think might as well negate Double Iron Bash's 30% chance to flinch the opponent. Its Special Defense is also noticeably lower than its Physical Defense, IE it is food for offensive Volcarona sets. Pretty much everything that can threaten a KO on this thing outspeeds it and honestly, so do even some Pokemon who can wall it. Moreover, even acknowledging its stupid high defense, even some physical attackers can take it down after just a bit of chip. It could hypothetically run an Iron Defense+Body Press set but, well, then it's kinda gimping its coverage so it's still handleable. tl;dr, this thing should have been retested in OU a while ago and if it wasn't fit for the tier then, I'm willing to be money it is now. (Like... a dollar, if you're asking.)

Magearna

I have mixed feelings about Magearna returning to OU. I hate that it has Trick now and I don't think any of the incoming mons are going to be able to reliably wall this thing's Choice Specs set except maybe Zapdos, who will not wanna lose its Heavy-Duty Boots or whatever it ends up running. And that's just one of its many, many sets it ran during the Isle of Armor. However, there is one big thing that's keeping me from saying the thing will for sure be banned again: the return of viable offensive Ground-types who can all revenge kill it as well as, should they stay in the tier, the two Fire Starters who can claim the same. Most offense mons in OU beforehand couldn't really do this, and those that could were potentially be outsped by a Shift Gear set, so it still wasn't guaranteed. Really, the only mon it had to worry about were Cinderace, healthy Volcarona, Banded Urshifu (unless it had a Shift Gear under its belt) and Excadrill, the last of whom NEEDED to be Sand Rush to outspeed Shift Gear Magearna since even Jolly Scarf Mold Breaker couldn't outspeed Modest Magearna with +2 Speed and was OHKO'd with Focus Blast if Magearna wasn't at -1. Now those mons will be joined by Blaziken, Garchomp, Zygarde and Landorus, so options for removing Magearna have opened up considerably. And frankly, while I agree with the Magearna ban, I also could conceive of a decent argument for it to have stayed in OU. Though I suppose you could run a Sub+Calm Mind set that would have less coverage, sure, but would also force the opponent to go on the offensive with Magearna or risk their revenge killer not doing anything at all... I'm not sure. Magearna's still a pretty tricky Pokemon at the end of the day. So while I THINK it might stay in OU, I suppose I wouldn't be surprised if it was banned.

Cinderace

Similarly to Magearna, my feelings about Cinderace are mixed. On one hand, Garchomp, Zygarde and Landorus-T are back as of tomorrow and I always felt like it would have been easier to handle in OU if they were around, especially the former two, who have the typing and bulk to switch into it or, at least, wall and KO it after a safe switch-in. On the other hand, it's still kind of a hassle to deal with this thing and its ever-changing typing (Garchomp in particular doesn't wanna switch into Cinderace's High Jump Kick without some defense investment) and that's without mentioning the times it decides to get spicy and drop Heavy-Duty Boots for an item like Life Orb or Choice Band, which is rare since it loves Heavy-Duty Boots so much due to its otherwise crippling Stealth Rock weakness but I've seen it happen from time to time. That said, Heavy-Duty Boots is its most common item of choice for a reason and now that it's no longer completely unwallable, I think many players will find it's no longer the overwhelming force it was before the Crown Tundra. Or, at least, it's not the only one. Hell, its damage output being potentially outclassed might encourage people to find other uses for it, and I for one would LOVE to see Court Change return to prominence again. In conclusion, I think Cinderace is MORE likely to return Ubers than Magearna since it admittingly does have a few less answers than the Artificial Pokemon has now, but it does have more reliable answers now and there are returning mons I think are just as overwhelming, if not more. So, yet again, I think it could go either way and both results would be equally surprising.

Pheromosa

Pheromosa is a Pokemon I've gone back and forth on. Initially, I figured it had no chance of returning to OU after I found out it got access to Close Combat. And really, with 137 in both Attacks, 151 Speed and how dominant this thing was in Gen VII, can you blame me? But then I remembered that literally all of its sets are walled by Toxapex, both physical and special, and suddenly I wasn't so sure. I don't wanna be the guy who says something isn't broken just cuz Toxapex walls it but seriously, everything Pheromosa has only 3HKOs it. And if it ever tried to set up with Quiver Dance, Toxapex could just Haze it away (and unlike with Volcarona, it doesn't even have to worry about Psychic.) It's not just Toxapex either. Specially Defensive Celesteela has a roughly 30% chance of getting 2HKO'd by a Life Orb Focus Blast (with no boosts,) which itself has a 30% chance to miss. And all of Skarmory, Celesteela, Corviknight and Zapdos don't care about its physical moves at all. And that's just the obvious ones I can think of. And, of course, this thing is super brittle. But then I remembered Heavy-Duty Boots exists and even if Pheromosa didn't end up being a hard hitting sweeper, it will most definitely take advantage of those boots to be a rather obnixously fast pivot that will make Zeraora and Dragapult look like Shuckle. And THAT, depending on how things play out, might be a bridge too far. I really wanted to say it would stay in OU because I like this Pokemon but I'd be lying to myself if I said that's likely to happen at all. It's less scary without Z-Moves, that's true, but I think it has too much going for it to really be healthy for the metagame.

Naganadel

Naganadel got access both Spikes and Toxic Spikes. That's pretty crazy and it adds a bit more depth to its game beyond just being a fast Special Attacker though, don't get me wrong, it's good at that. There isn't much can wall it comfortably even unboosted, though I can at least think of some Pokemon who can, like Chansey, Blissey and Heatran. In addition, Naganadel has pretty good coverage moves in Flamethrower and Thunderbolt and, on top of that, it has Nasty Plot, which can be enough to turn mons like Toxapex from a wall to basically a free Beast Boost, especially with prior chip damage. And, of course, Draco Meteor is pretty deadly. And on the off chance a Fairy switches into that... well, it has STAB Sludge Wave so yeah. Didn't think I'd end up saying this when I started writing but unless the aforementioned Blissey line and Heatran are really, REALLY good at walling it, I think Naganadel has a high chance of at least getting a suspect test. Sure, it's easily revenge killed by Dragapult and Scarf Mons but I think the sheer power of this thing on top of the possibility of it lying down entry hazards will likely push it over the edge.

Blaziken

Swords Dance, Speed Boost and now Close Combat. Yeah, this thing's not staying in OU. lmao

Zygarde

Zygarde's yet another Pokemon who's a bit of a puzzler. As people have already pointed out, it hates the removal of Z-Crystals but loves the removal of Hidden Power Ice. It's got another Grass-type to switch into its Ground STAB in Rillaboom, Tapu Bulu is returning to OU as well and Tangrowth already in the game. But, unless something changes, Thousand Arrows continues to make Flying-types non-checks to it. And while it probably isn't going to go without Thousand Arrows, it also got a nice new option in the form of Scorching Sand, which has the potential to make it even harder to kill (at least physically.) And I think that's basically the story of Gen VIII Zygarde so far: it got a bit weaker but it also got a bit harder to kill. I would almost say it will probably stick to its bulkier sets now but, then again, Choice Band is still in the game AND it still has Extreme Speed. Honestly, I'm willing to bet Zygarde's OU career in Sword and Shield will mirror that of Sun and Moon - not impossible to deal with but eventually banned both for its versatility and for being difficult to take out. That said, despite my gripes with Thousand Arrows making life hard for defensive Flying-types, I'm ultimately glad Zygarde's getting another chance in OU. And who knows? Maybe it'll be here to stay... but I have my doubts.

Landorus-I

Despite the lower speed, I think a lot of my opinions about Naganadel can be xeroxed over to Landorus-I, just with Stealth Rock rather than Spikes. Sheer Force+Life Orb is scary as hell and while I don't think Landorus has AS good of coverage as Naganadel or as good a boosting move with Calm Mind, the fact that it has an even easier time KOing Specially Defensive Toxapex WITHOUT a boost frankly speaks for itself. And while losing Hidden Power sucks and it has a harder time with Flying-types, it can smack Blissey hard with Superpower and, of course, Heatran is no issue at all. I'd even go as far as to say Landorus-I and Naganadel could potentially even be good partners in that regard, though that's a bit too much speculation for me to be confident about. As such, since I thought Naganadel had a high chance of getting banned, it should be pretty clear I think Landorus-I has a high chance of getting banned as well.

Genesect

I was SO ready to say Genesect has no place in OU when they announced it'd be returning to the tier... and looking further into it, now I can CONFIDENTLY say so. While 99 Speed may seem awkward and underwhelming, look at how ridiculous Genesect's movepool and the rest of its stats are! 120 in both Attack and Special Attack, Extreme Speed, U-Turn, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Flash Canon, Bug Buzz, Blaze Kick, Iron Head, Zen Headbutt, Psychic, Explosion, Shift Gear (yes, Shift Gear, meaning outspeeding it either naturally or with a Scarfer isn't reliable) and on top of ALL of that, its ability is Download? Heatran, Chansey, Blissey and Celesteela are barely checks and none of them are happy to switch in except maybe Chansey. In Heatran's case, some Genesects in the past have run a Douse Drive and Techno Blast to get around it so, if that picks up in popularity, it'd really just be Celesteela, Chansey and Blissey. Some sets will undoubtably be more popular than others but this thing is just way too unpredictable and guessing the wrong set means death way too easily. To conclude, if Genesect lasts more than two months in OU, I'll eat my shirt. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

So yeah, that's my thoughts. That took me all morning and now, if you'll excuse me, I should eat something. lol

 

[FCKNfuego]

but when we have access to liberal quickbans, I am less worried about this than I would be the potential of us keeping it banned

What criteria is being used to determine what should be quickbanned or not considering it's "so liberal"?

When you're introducing this many new strong Pokemon to the tier the meta is going to change dramatically and comparing subjective definitions of what OU "should" look like in contrast to older generations can easily cause a good amount of bias.

Also, what kind of time frames are we even looking at before we start addressing things in the meta?

 

[OvertoneSeries]

2. The Latis have stronger dragon moves and superior coverage and more sp attack , as does Naga. While the horse will likely have a weaker stab but more sp attack with snowballing capabilities. I wouldn’t call pult straight up outclassed but unless you desperately need the speed pult provides the other choices have a strong case

If the latis are scarfed (which they would have to be in order to function as speed control like Dragapult does), their coverage is all prediction-reliant, so if there's the risk of pressing draco meteor on a fairy type, or pressing a psychic move on a dark type, or pressing mystical fire on heatran, then those moves become much less valuable, as they can just give your opponent free turns and force you to switch. While Dragapult's ghost+dragon coverage still has immunities/resists, it has amazing neutral coverage between the two (with no OU pokemon resisting both), and it can press those buttons without fearing too hard, because it's able to click the other STAB, u-turn out or even fire off a status move if you're feeling ballsy. And if the latis are specs/LO/lefties/whatever, then your team still probably needs something to avoid getting swept by fast threats like Cinderace, Torn-T and opposing Pults, and Pult happens to provide that utility by virtue of its massive natural speed while also not being scarfed.

 

[Finchinator]

What criteria is being used to determine what should be quickbanned or not considering it's "so liberal"?

Impressions from the early metagame, a potential playerbase survey later this month, what checks and counters pokemon have, and honestly any other normal quickban criteria I may not have listed.

When you're introducing this many new strong Pokemon to the tier the meta is going to change dramatically and comparing subjective definitions of what OU "should" look like in contrast to older generations can easily cause a good amount of bias.

I am terribly sorry for my potential bias, FCKNfuego.

On a serious note, it’s not a perfect process and it can be based on perception, but the council plays the tier and the playerbase will be consulted, so we will handle it like we do quickbans in other generations.

Also, what kind of time frames are we even looking at before we start addressing things in the meta?

I would imagine we could see quickbans sometime this weekend if anything is blatantly broken. If not then, look for something soon thereafter depending on the outlook of the tier.

 

[taziathegreat]

If the latis are scarfed (which they would have to be in order to function as speed control like Dragapult does), their coverage is all prediction-reliant, so if there's the risk of pressing draco meteor on a fairy type, or pressing a psychic move on a dark type, or pressing mystical fire on heatran, then those moves become much less valuable, as they can just give your opponent free turns and force you to switch. While Dragapult's ghost+dragon coverage still has immunities/resists, it has amazing neutral coverage between the two (with no OU pokemon resisting both), and it can press those buttons without fearing too hard, because it's able to click the other STAB, u-turn out or even fire off a status move if you're feeling ballsy. And if the latis are specs/LO/lefties/whatever, then your team still probably needs something to avoid getting swept by fast threats like Cinderace, Torn-T and opposing Pults, and Pult happens to provide that utility by virtue of its massive natural speed while also not being scarfed.

Idk where the point of contention is here, we all agree pults will still have use as speed control going forward.

My main points are in a meta that will require some kind of priority, has a large variety quality dragon and ghost special attackers and viable dragon dancers. I see pults best set being done physical uturn darts set.
Especially long as the special specturm is filled with Pokémon with speed and or power

 

[DrPumpkinz]

But then I remembered that literally all of its sets are walled by Toxapex, both physical and special, and suddenly I wasn't so sure.

It actually got Drill Run in USUM (after it got banned) so while Toxapex used to stone-wall it, it's not so clear-cut now.

252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 127-151 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO

It's not the biggest hit, but a slightly chipped Toxapex is not a safe switch-in.

If we're unbanning Pheromosa, we might as well also unban Deoxys-Normal, who is at least weak to Sucker Punch instead of resistant to it, and who doesn't snowball if it gets a kill, and who doesn't have U-turn.

Hide

I'm kidding, by the way. Deoxys has no business being unbanned, just as Pheromosa had no business being unbanned.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Impressions from the early metagame, a potential playerbase survey later this month, what checks and counters pokemon have, and honestly any other normal quickban criteria I may not have listed.


I am terribly sorry for my potential bias, FCKNfuego.

On a serious note, it’s not a perfect process and it can be based on perception, but the council plays the tier and the playerbase will be consulted, so we will handle it like we do quickbans in other generations.


I would imagine we could see quickbans sometime this weekend if anything is blatantly broken. If not then, look for something soon thereafter depending on the outlook of the tier.

If Calyrex or any other new Pokémon has 670+ BST are they going to be on the initial banlist?

 

[Dr. Mint]

It actually got Drill Run in USUM (after it got banned) so while Toxapex used to stone-wall it, it's not so clear-cut now.

Wow, I totally missed that! And yeah, not that Toxapex gets totally crushed by Drill Run from Phero but still stings so yeah, one more reason to ban it. lol

 

[Martin]

The bird is the word

The Word (Tornadus) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast / Heat Wave
- Sludge Bomb / Heat Wave / Substitute / Defog

The Bird (Tornadus-Therian) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast / Heat Wave
- Sludge Bomb / Heat Wave / Defog / U-turn

This is definitely a Pokemon. Torn-T loses Flyinium but in exchange it gains Nasty Plot, which is fucking HUGE. In particular, LO Tornadus can now do this:

• +2 252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 255-302 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 234-277 (76.9 - 91.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• +2 252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 305-360 (100.3 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Which is one less obnoxious special wall for it to think about, and one that it had difficulty with last gen to boot. The main reason I'm including Torn-I here despite its speed tier is because of its much higher nuclear factor, which lets it net KOs vs Pokemon like Rotom-H, Unaware Clef, and Celesteela that Torn-I just can't net consistently. Of course this is a trade-off—Raikou can come in on Torn-I fairly aggressively whereas Torn-T is faster and KOs non-AV variants with +2 Focus Blast, and Torn-T can revenge kill stuff like Alakazam and Cinderace while Torn-I can't, but it's still a neat option and one that rips open defensive teams more cosnsistently. The key responses are specially defensive Rotom-H and specially defensive Zapdos, but really any Electric-type that can outrun the Torn in question is a good response. That said, Koko needs to be careful because its Fairy typing opens up an exploitable weakness to Poison, which could cause problems if it's your only way of dealing with Torn.

 

[Rarycaris]

If we're unbanning Pheromosa, we might as well also unban Deoxys-Normal, who is at least weak to Sucker Punch instead of resistant to it, and who doesn't snowball if it gets a kill, and who doesn't have U-turn.

Deoxys does at least have the mitigating factor of "it's still Dexited" in favour of its ban ;)

 

[FCKNfuego]

Impressions from the early metagame, a potential playerbase survey later this month, what checks and counters pokemon have, and honestly any other normal quickban criteria I may not have listed.

Sounds good. Nice to know these things some time before we actually start playing.

I am terribly sorry for my potential bias, FCKNfuego.

On a serious note, it’s not a perfect process and it can be based on perception, but the council plays the tier and the playerbase will be consulted, so we will handle it like we do quickbans in other generations.

You clearly should be Finch, unacceptable.

On topic, the playerbase hasn't been consulted before for past quick bans to the best of my knowledge and QBs don't really leave much room for discussion in either direction outside of more or less just the council. With the amount of possible mons that are thrown around that could be QB'd I don't see anything wrong discussing how these should work.

I would imagine we could see quickbans sometime this weekend if anything is blatantly broken. If not then, look for something soon thereafter depending on the outlook of the tier.

Imo QBs after 2-3 days of playing doesn't really seem like enough time to evaluate but I guess that really does depend on outliners.

 

[Finchinator]

On topic, the playerbase hasn't been consulted before for past quick bans to the best of my knowledge and QBs don't really leave much room for discussion in either direction outside of more or less just the council. With the amount of possible mons that are thrown around that could be QB'd I don't see anything wrong discussing how these should work.

We also didn’t have the same playerbase survey infrastructure in place previously. We do now and one is planned for later this month, which will help consult the playerbase.

Imo QBs after 2-3 days of playing doesn't really seem like enough time to evaluate but I guess that really does depend on outliners.

Depends on the pokemon, I don’t love generalizing

 

[Monky25]

Imo QBs after 2-3 days of playing doesn't really seem like enough time to evaluate but I guess that really does depend on outliners.

I mean that is why it's called a quick ban lol. Those are mainly meant for pokemon that are obviously broken and we need to get rid of them as fast as possible while still giving them time to function in the metagame. I think the worst offenders should go by 3 days in with maybe another quickban slate close to a week after crown tundra dlc drops.

 

[Martin]

If there aren't quickbans within a matter of days in any major non-Uber Smogon format I'm extremely shocked/skeptical lol. It's just basic probability that there will be at least few Pokemon that people can tell are beyond absurd within about ten minutes of their release, though obviously like Finch said it's bad to generalise.

 

[musiquepkmn]

Stupid Idea.

- Adamant choice band close combat 2hkos corv guaranteed after rocks.
- Can pull the same trick with pex if you use psychic fangs. Doesn't even need rocks to guarantee if you use wild charge.
- This thing isnt a little fast, its 138 base speed fast. Adamant zamazenta outspeeds jolly cinderace. Can ouspeed koko if jolly as well.
- All out attacking CB sets dont have as dire a movepool as you may think. Stab CC + coverage for fairies, poisons, and psychics.
- Insane bulk, 325/266/266 uninvited. Gets a free +1 defense too. lives CB urshifu CC.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta: 261-307 (80.3 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
East clef moonblast too 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 174-206 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Thing is broken, maybe test but it'll get banned anyways

Most of the discussion imo is about Zamazenta-Crowned, who is bulkier and has steel-typing but can't hold an item, which means it gets no recovery and no method of breaking through walls apart from sub-howl (oh no what set have i created)