Don't flame me for using the Flame Pokemon! (Moltres Discussion)

[blasphemy1]

Actually, Rapid Spin is a relatively bad move, if only for the fact that there is a move that obviously out-classes it. SR, or any other entry hazard move.

Let me put it this way: Each turn is an opportunity to accomplish something for your team. In other words each turn you are paying the cost of 1 turn in order to forward your strategy.

If the opponent uses SR, and I later Rapid Spin, here are the benefits each player got:

Rapid Spin: I got one free turn (the turn my opponent used to set up SR, which I later got rid of)

SR User: I got one free turn (the turn my opponent used to get rid of SR) + Some Damage from setting up SR

I realize this is definitely an over-simplification, but it holds true at the basic level.

In other words, it is clear that in terms of cost/benefit analysis, Rapid Spin is inherently inferior to simply setting up your own entrance hazards. The only time Rapid Spin actually gets better cost/benefits is when it manages to get rid of multiple hazards (which quite frankly is rare).

Also it's reliability is questionable as Tay mentioned. If I design an offensive team with few SR-weak pokemon, and that is meant to sacrifice the SR-weak ones early, I can be almost completely certain about how much effect SR will have on my battles. If I have many SR weak or 4x SR weak pokes and rely on a rapid spinner, I really don't know how much an effect SR will have on the battle, because I can't be certain I will succeed in using Rapid Spin or that the turn I spend doing it won't cost me the game (like him setting up DD on the spin or just killing a critical poke).

Now considering opportunity costs (obviously rapid-spinning the incoming celebi is worth a lot more than close-combating it) mean that it is not a bad move, it just is not a really good move, and certainly not a necessary one.

If this is true, then what is the counter-argument for not banning Stealth Rock? I am sorry, this is a little off topic(not really though). I know it holds Gyarados and Salamence in check, but like I said before, if they are only being held back by SR, then they should probably be suspects themselves.

I however, do not believe what you said is true, and I think Rapid Spin has far more benefits than you believe. First of all, everyone tends to do calculations with the inclusion of SR, because it has pretty much become a normal battle condition, however, when you take that out, now they can't rely on their CB Scizor to revenge kill your DD Salamence, meaning you can sweep their entire team, and for what? They got an extra hit on my Hitmontop which can't be OHKOed by anything except Explosion, CB Brave Bird, and Specs Psychic? I consider that an advantage in my direction. If I manage to spin away their rocks against something like a Salamence, I can just send in my Mamoswine and revenge kill them. Now they send in something, possibly freeing up a switch for my Salamence, who isn't taking 25% health anymore. Shit, I know it is a lot of theorymon, but I have tested this quite a few times, and I can infer from your posts that your ideas are theorymon-it DOES work.

 

[Chou Toshio]

You are wrong about me using theorymon, because my arguments are not theorymon-- simple facts.

If I said "infernape is a fire type," that is not theorymon. That's just a fact. Just the simple mechanics of SR and Rapid Spin mean that Cost/Benefit wise, SR is a superior move (as is spikes and t-spikes, if set in only 1 layer) to Rapid Spin.

Also, on a team with no rapid spin, the fact that I can have a general understanding of how much SR will affect the game (assuming it goes up) is again, just simple fact.

Where as if I use a lot of SR-weak or 4x SR weak pokemon and rely on a rapid spinner, which may or may not get a good chance to spin, the fact that I am more uncertain as to the impact of SR on a given game is again, just a simple fact.

If you call that theorymon it's theorymon in a very extrapolated sense.

 

[Objection]

If you think that Rapid Spin is a waste of a move, try running a team without Stealth Rock, Spikes or Toxic Spikes. Rapid Spin may not be 100% reliable, but for the very same reason Close Combat is not 100% reliable.

Also, I just wish to add:

Rapid Spin: I got one free turn (the turn my opponent used to set up SR, which I later got rid of) + Salamence and Gyarados don't lose 25% of their health when they switch in any longer.

SR User: I got one free turn (the turn my opponent used to get rid of SR) + Some Damage from setting up SR

 

[Chou Toshio]

Objection, no that is wrong because Salamence and Gyarados normally don't take 25% just for coming in on the field. In other words, you're taking your turn just to bring yourself back to original conditions. My equation is correct.

If anything, Rurushu's reponse is the most intelligent:

I can't say that you're wrong, but your explanation is so basic that it can't prove anything.

I too mentioned what I posted was an over-simplification. Obviously Rapid Spin can often be set up to get you more net gain than other available moves. I am just pointing out its inherent flaws, which does have repercussions for its performance. Over the long run, you want to optimize the value of each move, and Rapid Spin is simply not a top-tier move. I could say the same thing about superpower though, but it still gets use, for good reason (something one could also say about rapid spin). Saying Rapid Spin is necessary is a joke though.

Just fyi, almost none of my teams put setting up SR as a perogative, and one of my wall-breaker-focused teams don't even have SR included. Since SR is a better move than Rapid Spin and I don't even see SR as that great of a move (good, but not any godly really), you can guess my opinion on Rapid Spin.

But again yeah, I do tend to play more fast-paced offensively oriented teams . . .

 

[blasphemy1]

I am not saying running 5-4x stealth rock pokemon and a rapid spinner is reliable by any means, where are you getting this from? I was merely pointing out that rapid spinning isn't a waste of a move because many, if not ALL pokemon, benefit from the lack of residual damage. If I have a team with Hitmontop / Flygon / Scizor / Moltres / Salamence / Vaporeon, all of these pokemon will benefit from the lack of Stealth Rock. Salamence won't be revenge killed, Vaporeon is no longer 2HKOed by random attacks, nor is it OHKOed by a +2 LO Close Combat from Infernape. Moltres can now stall forever, Flygon can switch into SR and not fear Lucario's Extremespeed, DD Salamence won't be OHKOed by CB Bullet Punch, CB Scizor won't be worn down, etc. In my experience, having a rapid spinner is just as reliable as using any other pokemon I would be using in that slot, and often is of greater value. Instead of my Vaporeon passing Wishes to Salamence/Moltres just to heal off SR damage(which is risky), they can now use the Wish to heal damage from resisted attacks.

BTW, stating that Infernape is a fire type, is NOT theorymon, obviously, because the game tells you that. Inferring that Stealth Rock will give you an advantage over Rapid Spin, that is theorymon.

 

[TAY]

Let's try to bring this back into a Moltres-related context...

Whether Rapid Spin is good on a non-Moltres team is almost irrelevant to this discussion. "Look Moltres is usable because I run Rapid Spin anyway" doesn't mean Moltres is good or even usable. What matters is that you can reliably remove SR from the field and that you do not have to sacrifice the quality of your team to do it.

Let's go over these facts...

1. Rapid Spin is not a waste of a move; however, it is probably only reliable about 70% of the time (generous estimate)
2. Defensive Moltres is barely functional with SR on the field (cannot switch into Heatran, Infernape, or Scizor).
3. Moltres is close to wasted space whenever SR is down.

--> Moltres is not reliable.

Does anyone have a problem with my logic here?

Also, please remember that this is a Moltres (not Rapid Spin!) discussion.

 

[blasphemy1]

Tay, I have to agree with you, but the argument of Rapid Spin is a direct extension of a Moltres argument, you pointed that out yourself by stating the conditions under which Moltres can barely function(w/SR down). It comes down to being able to reliably remove rapid spin, I myself find it easier than others, so I guess in the general scheme of things, Moltres isn't as "good" as Zapdos or Gyarados, since the average player can't utilize its potential as well as a team supporting it. This is pretty much the same case as Dragonite vs. Salamence, except Moltres vs. Zapdos. Obviously, the reasons are different, but the general idea stays the same: Is it convenient for the average player to use. Please don't take this post as a flame, I do not mean whoever does not use Moltres is an average player, I am just saying it is possible to make a team that supports him while functioning as well/better than other teams.

 

[Ph3artehPh1r3]

Lol, Moltres is too fun. Just switch em in on a Scizor as he SDs, the smart ones will switch out, letting you first sub, then roost. Did anyone meantion that any Moltres set can outstall anything Scarftran can throw? Also, I think I used a set that a friend made that can effectivly counter any non-Stone Edging Salamence.

 

[Pyromanic]

Lol, Moltres is too fun. Just switch em in on a Scizor as he SDs, the smart ones will switch out, letting you first sub, then roost. Did anyone meantion that any Moltres set can outstall anything Scarftran can throw? Also, I think I used a set that a friend made that can effectivly counter any non-Stone Edging Salamence.

Most Scizors are CBed.

 

[Jonathan]

Even without taking SR and Rapid Spin support into consideration, Moltres is by and large inferior to the OU Pokemon it tries to emulate.

This discussion would be better served if we talk about Moltres' potential in UU. =p

 

[Ph3artehPh1r3]

Even without taking SR and Rapid Spin support into consideration, Moltres is by and large inferior to the OU Pokemon it tries to emulate.

This discussion would be better served if we talk about Moltres' potential in UU. =p

Who does Moltres try to emulate? IMO, Moltres is a unique poke who has untapped potential. It can counter the top 3 pokes right now, and that to me is pretty immpressive

 

[Pyromanic]

Who does Moltres try to emulate? IMO, Moltres is a unique poke who has untapped potential. It can counter the top 3 pokes right now, and that to me is pretty immpressive

I haven't run any calcs but, I don't think Moltres can take a LO Draco Meteor or a LO Outrage from Mence after SR.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Lol, Moltres is too fun. Just switch em in on a Scizor as he SDs, the smart ones will switch out, letting you first sub, then roost. Did anyone meantion that any Moltres set can outstall anything Scarftran can throw? Also, I think I used a set that a friend made that can effectivly counter any non-Stone Edging Salamence.

Well, no Moltres can counter the Hasty/Naive LO Draco Meteor + Outrage set, with or without SR on the field.

 

[Jonathan]

Who does Moltres try to emulate? IMO, Moltres is a unique poke who has untapped potential. It can counter the top 3 pokes right now, and that to me is pretty immpressive

Well this would be obvious if you had read the entire thread: Zapdos with the Toxic SubRoost set, and ResTalk Gyara with its "Sczior/Infernape/Heatran" counter set. I really don't want to have to contest this point again, the arguments have all been made throughout the thread.


And what is this bullshit with Moltres being able to "counter" Salamence? I don't even need damage calcs to prove my point here. Hardly anything can "counter" Salamence nowadays in the truest sense of the word. And even say Moltres hypthetically were a counter to Salamence: why not just use Zapdos then? Defensively they are practically the same (Zapdos is 90/85/90 while Moltres is 90/90/85), they have the same SAtk. But Zapdos only takes x2 damage from SR unlike Moltres, and most importantly Zapdos is AS FAST AS Salamence, so it could eventually switch in, take a hit, and KO Salamence first (depending on the set Salamence is running of course). Moltres is slower and can't do this. So once again Moltres is outclassed.

 

[Scoopapa]

I use stalltres in UU and it is the absolute foundation of my team. I used the team a little bit in OU, but most of the team did very poorly, although I did find it to be an awesome Scizor/Infernape counter. Stalling out Stone Edge works great in UU too, but only against choice users and things that rely on EdgeQuake or Edge + Fighting. The thing about Moltres in OU that seems most appealing to me is being able to switch in on ScarfTran and take 2 PP from Fire Blast, then being able to sub, dish out offense or status without prediction, and recover afterwards.

 

[blasphemy1]

Well the point of Moltres countering Salamence is quite a joke, as is the notion of Zapdos. Swampert with his 100/90 defenses can sometimes fall to Salamence, so even without Stealth Rock, the two birds have no shot. Neither Zapdos nor Moltres OHKOs without HP Ice, and Zapdos needs a large amount of EVs to outspeed even Naughty Salamence, tho most mixed Mence are now Naive iirc.

I have battled with my Moltres team ~50 times now, and about 4/5 of the time SR is even set up, so I will just omit the other Stealth Rockless battles from my judgement. In the other 40 or so games, Hitmontop worked excellently, and Moltres really never got a chance to switch into much, because Hitmontop was handling their Blissey, Tyranitar, etc. I find this ironic-I put Moltres on my team, then I have to add a spinner to deal with SR, and he turns out to be more productive than most of my other pokes, lol. I shouldn't have put in another Heatran counter(Vaporeon), otherwise Moltres would have stood out.

 

[Articanus]

Moltres is one of the ONLY pokemon I have competively given BrightPowder to.

Seriously, with SR taking off 50% of its HP and Rotom making Rapid Spin anything but useless, you'll find yourself in a lot of "die or die" situations. At least that gives you a 10% chance of making it out

 

[Darkmalice]

Moltres actually has some really good use over Zapdos. I don't care about an extra 5 base points in Defense, and there are many good counters to Scizor. But Moltres makes a better Lucario counter. Zapdos has to go Timid and 176 Spe thanks to a weakness to Ice Punch, with the rest in HP and Def to weaken Extremespeed. Moltres doesn't. Will o Wisp is a very important move, turning OHKOs into 2HKOs like that of Tyranitar's, Rhyperior's and Gyarados' Stone Edge. Whilst Zapdos doesn't have a x4 Rock weakness, it doesn't have Will o Wisp to permanently cripple these Pokemon, and without it, is hit much more badly by Earthquake when Roosting than Moltres. Finally, the only OU Pokemon that is immune to Fire attacks is Heatran, who is easily PP stalled. How many OU Pokemon are immune to Zapdos' STAB? Swampert, Flygon, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Mamoswine, Dugtrio, Rhyperior, Donphan, Jolteon and Electivire.


Moltres does need Rapid Spin, but it is not useless. Stealth Rock is a completely ridiculous move to the extent that every good team has it. Using a turn to remove it is not a waste of a move. Who knows how much damage it could save in the long run? And don't think that once Stealth Rock is used, removed, it can always be set up again. Stealth Rock is very often utilized on the lead Pokemon. Suicide leads can be taken down quickly (hence the word 'suicide'), and Metagross leads may explode, meaning they won't be around to set up SR again. Once Rapid Spin is used, it's gone.

Whilst it is true that Rapid Spin is useless when used against a Ghost Pokemon, it is not a waste of a move. Just the presence of Starmie, Tentacruel, Forretress or Donphan is all that is needed to lure out Rotom-A, Dusknoir or perhaps Gengar. Don't bother with Rapid Spin if you know they have one of these three. Here's what you can do:
- if Forretress or Donphan is your Rapid Spinner, use Payback or Assurance respectively.
- send in Tyranitar to punish the incoming Ghost. Only LO or Specs Gengar can OHKO Tyranitar. Scizor can be used against Gengar, weakened Dusknoir, or any Rotom-A except Rotom-H (which is sadly, the most popular Rotom-A). This can sometimes be doneeven if you have just tried using Rapid Spin on the Ghost. A cleric is helpful with this trick to remove Burn inflicted on your Pokemon.

Or even if you can't do any of these, if you know one of these three is coming in, you can act accordingly e.g. use Surf on Starmie to at least score decent damage. If you're against a stall team, always expect Rotom-A.

 

[Objection]

There is one SR set-upper you overlooked darknessmalice: Swampert.

With regards to Moltres though, I just want to know, if you don't use him to deal with the majority of (if not all) fighting types, who do you use? The only other pokemon I can think of that could deal with fighting types in OU is Gliscor.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Gyarados, Zapdos, Salamence, Rotom-A, Celebi (Psychic/Earth Power), all seem at least as viable as moltres. Keeping in mind that many fighting types can and do run Stone Edge now and again, including physical infernape (who is increasing in popularity with Latias around). Scarf Adamant/Jolly nape is around these days, and Stone Edge is its best move for Coverage with Flare Blitze/CC

 

[Objection]

If many fighting types run Stone Edge, then couldn't Zapdos be discarded too? At least Gyarados and Salamence have Intimidate to soften the Stone Edge blow.

 

[Rurushu]

If many fighting types run Stone Edge, then couldn't Zapdos be discarded too? At least Gyarados and Salamence have Intimidate to soften the Stone Edge blow.

In my book, 4X weakness is worst than 2X weakness. It's true that a powerfull stone edge can kill both of them, but zapdos can easily roost the damage, stalling Stone Edge PP.

Also, in a similar fashion to Dragonite/Salamence, Moltres will have less defense than zapdos, because he will need more speed EVs if you want to outspeed ADAMANT Lucario (adamant in caps, because you can't outspeed the jolly ones!)

And only because spinning is viable, why would you even care about getting the rocks out of the field for a single pokémon, when you could be using another one who is better WITH or WITHOUT rocks. Spinning the rocks does benefits your entire team, but i'm sure that Salamence can wreak havoc with stealth rock, when moltres can't :/


Now, we should really discuss moltres at UU, where he really shines.

 

[Darkmalice]

In my book, 4X weakness is worst than 2X weakness. It's true that a powerfull stone edge can kill both of them, but zapdos can easily roost the damage, stalling Stone Edge PP.

Also, in a similar fashion to Dragonite/Salamence, Moltres will have less defense than zapdos, because he will need more speed EVs if you want to outspeed ADAMANT Lucario (adamant in caps, because you can't outspeed the jolly ones!)

And only because spinning is viable, why would you even care about getting the rocks out of the field for a single pokémon, when you could be using another one who is better WITH or WITHOUT rocks. Spinning the rocks does benefits your entire team, but i'm sure that Salamence can wreak havoc with stealth rock, when moltres can't :/


Now, we should really discuss moltres at UU, where he really shines.

Moltres also has Will o Wisp to half the opponent's attack, essentially making its x4 weakness a x2 weakness. This, combined with Moltres' higher defense stat, makes it stalls better with Roost (and not to forget the 12.5% of HP lost each turn from Burn).

Moltres doesn't need to outspeed Lucario. Very few Lucario run Stone Edge these days, and Moltres will easily survive any of Lucario's other attacks. Zapdos does need to outrun Lucario thanks to Ice Punch, whilst keeping enough EVs to survive +2 Extremespeed after SR damage. Moltres does need Rapid Spin support, because +2 Adamant Close Combat will OHKO max/max Moltres after SR damage 92.31% of the time, whilst Zapdos doesn't. But without the rocks, Moltres is the better choice.

 

[chenman333]

^^^ Except Moltres needs Roost+WoW to make Stone Edge neutral, and Zapdos just needs Roost. And you can only choose one before getting hit.

 

[Objection]

Does Moltres need to make Stone Edge neutral? Does Zapdos even need to make Stone Edge neutral? Trying to get rid of weaknesses isn't always a good thing.