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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
Well, even though it'll achieve little. It would get rid of the topic of "Distinct NFE's" and we could move onto more important issues. Is anyone absolutely against it (Or at least in a large enough faction)? Chansey, Snover and Hippo must be banned instantly of course (I may be missing some more troublesome NFE's).
I'm not really in favour of unbanning all of the NFEs due to some of them making the tier feel more like a mini OU (Monferno, Gabite etc.)but thats just my opinion. It would however allow us as evolutia said to get rid of the Distinct NFEs topic and allow us to move on to other things but overall I don't think its necessary.
Also, I wanted to ask if there is any opposition to the banning of Kabutops? Of the 5 pokemon listed in "under careful observation" Kabutops is the only one who hasn't had any people posting for it to remain in UU. Is it safe to say that we can ban it come next month?
Also, I wanted to ask if there is any opposition to the banning of Kabutops? Of the 5 pokemon listed in "under careful observation" Kabutops is the only one who hasn't had any people posting for it to remain in UU. Is it safe to say that we can ban it come next month?
Hmmm, I like this idea ;). In ADV was kinda popular and it would help us to find another wall against those strong fighting pokemon. Yep, his similar to Gliscor, but I think that he can be this only 'exception'. He would help alot with balancing UU. I prefer allowing Gligar much more then forcing Weezing to UU. Ok, here's my list of NFE's which I see in UU:
Larvitar - The only Guts user with STAB Stone Edge and Earthquake. For me interesting choice for Trick Rooms teams, something like 'Glass Cannon'. Also combination of Guts + Rock Polish/Dragon Dance makes him interesting. Thanks to his trait different from Pupitar and especially Tyranitar. And also have much different statistics then both of them.
Pupitar - Really rare Shed Skin user, so different stats then Tyranitar and have different trait. I would see him as interesting Curse user thanks to his 100 defence, solid in UU.
Gligar - Just to help balance UU tier.
Seadra - Different type then his full evolution (lacks dragon type), he would be the only mono-type water Dragon Dance user. Being faster then Lapras and Altaria, but having worse defences makes him different from them. Also having unique Signal Beam and Octazooka as DD user helps him to be different. Also it doesn't have Swift Swift trait (like his fully evolution, Kingdra), but Poison Point and Sniper makes him different enough from Kingdra. And of course he has different stats.
Charmeleon - He would be the only fire-type Belly Drum user. Lacks flying type like his fully evolution, Charizard, which helps him alot against Stealth Rock.
Magneton - I know that he was discussed, but being faster then his fully evolution and having worse defences forces player to use another tactics for him. I think his different enough.
Tangela - I'm neutral about Tangela, for me Tangela can be added.
Dusclops - Dusclops would help with UU problem having poor defensive ghosts and would make harder Rapid Spinning. Typical defensive pokemon, which has also much worse attack. Would be interesting.
Dragonair - Shed Skin user, Dragonair would be the second dragon type (with Altaria). Much different from Dragonite.
Evee - Of course allowed being different in every way then his evolutions. And it would make him the only UU Adaptability user.
Togetic - Interesting, different poke then Togekiss. With good defences and poor another stats. He would be interesting Serene Grace user.
Shelgon - Interesting dragon mono-type pokemon, so different from Salamence (lacks flying type). Good defence, not bad attack. Also he has different trait then Salamence (Rock Head vs Intimidiate).
Yanma - Being unique CompoundEyes user (with Butterfree), worse defensive stats then Yanmega, still not that bad Special Attack. For me it would be also interesting addition in UU tier.
Widely Acceptable NFE's - I agree with it of course. These all NFE's I would like to see in UU tier ;).
That's all my opinion about NFE's in UU tier. Cheers.
Gligar: While I am against NFE that fill the same role as their evolution, if we were to add this instead of Weezing, I would be okay with this one exception. Basically, I'm not even sure if we need a Fighting counter in UU, but if we absolutely must add a Fighting counter, then I would prefer to see Gligar > Weezing. They both have 65 Base HP, but Weezing has 120 Def, 15 higher than Gligar. Gligar also has weaknesses to Water and Ice, much easier to take advantage of then Weezing's sinlge weakness to Psychic. Weezing also threatens WoW to completely cripple any physical attacker...
Seadra: Yea, lacks Swift Swim and the Dragon typing of Kingdra. Good enough for me.
Charmeleon: Don't know, lacks Zard's Flying type, but BD is most likely the only thing it'll be able to do. But it might not matter, as it might not see much use either, stats aren't the best...
Magneton: Don't know, I guess I agree with what Trust said.
Tangela: Hm, while it has more speed than it's evo, making it an option for Sunny Day teams, I'm not sure if it'll be used on them. We could just end up with it doing exactly what it's evo does, especially as RD teams are far more common than SD...perhaps we could test it and see if it used often enough in SD teams to grant it a spot in UU?
Dusclops: Does pretty much what its evo does. In my opinion, shouldn't be allowed in.
Dragonair: I'm kind of worried it'll just do what most Dragonite do in OU, and that DD up and sweep with Outrage..I'm on the fence, but leaning towards no.
Eevee: Well, it's different, I can say that much.
Togetic: Looking at its movepool, we notice the lack of Air Slash, preventing it from copying Togekiss. Personally, I think we could allow it.
Shelgon: Yea, very different from Mence.
Yanma: I'm worried it'll do just what its evo does...Leaning towards no.
Seadra: Yea, lacks Swift Swim and the Dragon typing of Kingdra. Good enough for me.
Charmeleon: Don't know, lacks Zard's Flying type, but BD is most likely the only thing it'll be able to do. But it might not matter, as it might not see much use either, stats aren't the best...
Magneton: Don't know, I guess I agree with what Trust said.
Tangela: Hm, while it has more speed than it's evo, making it an option for Sunny Day teams, I'm not sure if it'll be used on them. We could just end up with it doing exactly what it's evo does, especially as RD teams are far more common than SD...perhaps we could test it and see if it used often enough in SD teams to grant it a spot in UU?
Dusclops: Does pretty much what its evo does. In my opinion, shouldn't be allowed in.
Dragonair: I'm kind of worried it'll just do what most Dragonite do in OU, and that DD up and sweep with Outrage..I'm on the fence, but leaning towards no.
Eevee: Well, it's different, I can say that much.
Togetic: Looking at its movepool, we notice the lack of Air Slash, preventing it from copying Togekiss. Personally, I think we could allow it.
Shelgon: Yea, very different from Mence.
Yanma: I'm worried it'll do just what its evo does...Leaning towards no.
--> I am against making "exceptions" in policy just for the sake of balancing. If we're going to have special rules about NFEs, they better apply to all of them.
Eevee has CB Adaptability Last Resort for 390 base power. O.o
Putting that aside though, I believe we agreed to keep most discussion of NFEs out of this thread-- not sure if we're sticking to that still.
Eevee has CB Adaptability Last Resort for 390 base power. O.o
Putting that aside though, I believe we agreed to keep most discussion of NFEs out of this thread-- not sure if we're sticking to that still.
I see lots of people in this thread finding rain teams too powerful.
If rain teams are too powerful, why not just ban damp rock? Damp rock made rain teams so powerful, after all, with rain dance lasting 8 turns (6 turns if you let a pokemon set it up for another pokemon, which is still enough).
If rain teams are too powerful, why not just ban damp rock? Damp rock made rain teams so powerful, after all, with rain dance lasting 8 turns (6 turns if you let a pokemon set it up for another pokemon, which is still enough).
But the fact remains that the rain is only temporary. It is not difficult to take down a rain team, especially if you have a Swift Swimmer/Hydrationer of your own.
Getting back to Zangoose, why is it in BL? It could see usage in UU, instead of being outclassed by the likes of Lucario or Garchomp in OU.
Getting back to Zangoose, why is it in BL? It could see usage in UU, instead of being outclassed by the likes of Lucario or Garchomp in OU.
or try parasect, absorbs the water for heal and as most rain dancers are deul type with rock, use a grass move, also means HP electric and grass wont ruin it.
The main problem with rain dance I have noticed is the way it is set up.. electrode, quick taunt and rain then explodes, you cant set up speed, sleep or basically prepare because of that taunt, switch and your poke gets blown up.
The main problem with rain dance I have noticed is the way it is set up.. electrode, quick taunt and rain then explodes, you cant set up speed, sleep or basically prepare because of that taunt, switch and your poke gets blown up.
Well, Magneton and Dusclops will be too powerful, and likewize, I think things like Togetic and Eevee will be too weak to see any use.
I think we should allow all NFEs should be allowed, and treated like individual Pokemon. 95% of them won't have any impact whatsoever, and many of the useful 5%, such as Chansey, Magneton, Kadabra, Dusclops, Porygon 2, etc. will obviously be BL (Porygon 2 already is, and Chansey and Kadabra were in the previous gens). They won't be clones of their evolutions because UU is a completely different atmosphere to OU, so different strategies will be needed. Plus, Gabite may be a clone of Garchomp, but it's stats are so much lower it won't be hugely useful in UU. Likewize, Kadabra is just like Alakazam, but its important stats are so high that it'll be dominating in UU, whilst Alakazam sees little use in OU, so it won't make UU 'OU-lite'.
If Sableye evolved into Spiritomb (let's ignore the fact that if that were true, Spiritomb would have Sableye's moves), i'd bet it would be NFE, not UU. Even Sableye's analysis says that Spiritomb has completely usurped Sableye.
This. Gilgar is not distinct and creating an exception for it just opens up all sorts of doors for other NFE's.
I had strong apprehension about allowing NFE's (Non distinct) in the beginning but I came to the realization that one cannot just downgrade there OU team by one evolution and expect it to preform well. I just have my doubts about it turning into an OU mini; the pokemon currently in UU are not pushovers. The majority of NFE's will be hard pressed to compete with them. If a NFE is proven to be to strong then it should be banned.
No exceptions(Hi Gilgar). Either distinct NFE's or none at all.
That wouldn't be a problem if Rain Dance didn't last forever due to Damp Rock.
Parasect dies to Ice Beam/Stone Edge.
But I was just saying IF rain teams were too powerful, I'm neutral on them but I find Damp Rock ridiculous.
Oh wow, I got so caught up in the current NFE debate I forgot about the Kabutops issue. With what was said by the majority who posted on the issue I think it's safe to ban it.
If RD teams are imbalanced, then the best fix is to ban the Pokemon that are too powerful (banning Kabutops will help.) Note that Golduck is a good counter to most RD teams, it can outspeed all common Rain Dancers after Cloud Nine kicks in and switches into water attacks.
On the issue of NFE, same as I posted in the Policy Review thread. I support them all joining UU, and that we should undergo some sort of testing before making any bans. The only Pokemon I would support banning at this point are Chansey, Snover, and Hippopotas.
On the issue of NFE, same as I posted in the Policy Review thread. I support them all joining UU, and that we should undergo some sort of testing before making any bans. The only Pokemon I would support banning at this point are Chansey, Snover, and Hippopotas.
A Pokemon's performance in OU is irrelevant to this discussion. The question is whether it would be too dominating in UU, and in this regard I fail to be convinced, but many people say otherwise.
Why is Magneton too powerful for UU? Being shit slow with crap defenses I hardly see it dominating. It would be useful for trapkilling Steels but otherwise I don't see the big appeal.
I also fail to be convinced that Kadabra and Haunter would be too powerful believe it or not. You say that they still have their important stats high, but 105 speed and 120 special attack does not mean automatic win, especially in a priority-infested metagame. When a Pokemon is flat out OHKO'd by an unSTABed Pursuit whether they switch or not they suddenly become a huge liability to the team. I might even be prepared to go as far as saying, on a hunch, that the metagame would very quickly adapt with small adjustments to phaze them out of competition almost completely.
Don't you mean 'either only distinct NFEs, none at all, or all of them'? If so I agree 100%. Making certain exceptions to fit the metagame we desire is ridiculous.
I mean this respectfully: why would Magneton be too strong for DP UU? Has it changed that much since its run in GSC UU? Was there some other reason that it wasn't UU in Advanced besides making Skarmory cry? Other than Defense and Special Attack, its stats are pretty lousy, with the bad HP hurting that decent Defense, and it only becomes better due to its typing, which is still weak against Fighting (which is all over UU right now), Fire and 4x Ground unless it's used Magnet Rise. It's also not benefiting that much from Magnet Pull when Steelix is immune to its best move and Aggron is probably packing Earthquake to make Magneton think twice about staying in.
What move options does Magneton have, really? I count any of its Electric moves (Thunder, Thunderbolt, Discharge, etc.), Thunder Wave, Hidden Power, Magnet Rise, Metal Sound, Flash Cannon, Explosion, Light Screen and Reflect. His movepool isn't particularly amazing. Factor in a type with two easily exploitable weaknesses (Fighting/Ground, although all those resistances are nice), only two above average stats, and two abilities that won't be doing much, and Magneton shouldn't be too hard to control. The only reason it shouldn't be in UU is because it's too similar to Magnezone or whatnot.
What move options does Magneton have, really? I count any of its Electric moves (Thunder, Thunderbolt, Discharge, etc.), Thunder Wave, Hidden Power, Magnet Rise, Metal Sound, Flash Cannon, Explosion, Light Screen and Reflect. His movepool isn't particularly amazing. Factor in a type with two easily exploitable weaknesses (Fighting/Ground, although all those resistances are nice), only two above average stats, and two abilities that won't be doing much, and Magneton shouldn't be too hard to control. The only reason it shouldn't be in UU is because it's too similar to Magnezone or whatnot.
Despite their defenses i'm sure no Pokemon or small adjustments are going to simply remove or phaze out Kadabra and Haunter with Kadabra having base 120 Special Attack and 105 Speed or Haunter having base 115 Special Attack and base 95 Speed. Most common users of Pursuit in UU also have to be pretty wary when switching into either of them, which doesn't say that much for them directly stopping them.
I agree. Making exceptions to the rules to fit the metagame is pointless and will raise questions as to why we simply can't do this for more NFEs. Out of the three choices i'm more inclined to agree with the first two. Either allow none of them at all or only distinct ones. With allowing only disticnt ones we could probaly have to come up with a criteria with which we can use to determine wheter a NFE me be unique enough to warrant its use in UU.
Personally I don't think having a higher base statistic in an area needs to be a requirement. Also in addition to the criteria you posted maybe something along the lines of movepool differences allowing for a different play style (an example of that would be Togetic).