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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

Kabutops is a tenacious one...the standard Swords Dance/Aqua Jet/Waterfall/Stone Edge set has the potential to destroy the majority of UU, but it is just sooooo difficult to get in that SD with that horrendous typing and the obligation to carry Life Orb to OHKO the likes of Rotom and Primeape hinders his durability even further. Throw in capable counters in Quagsire, Hitmontop and Toxicroak and it seems a little unfair to persecute him when there are other Pokemon in UU who are much harder to stop.

Anyway, I haven't played UU properly in a long time so take any reccomendations with a pinch of salt!

Without permanent SS and Hail, any savvy player would be able to abuse the hell out of Shedinja. Pursuit is also a lot rarer in UU...I can't really think of anything that uses the move on a regular basis. Without putting much though into this, I imagine Shedinja/Steelix/Bulky Water would be a hell of an annoying combo

Weezing partners so well with Steelix that he risks throwing the UU metagame into a stallfest. I'm a little hesitant on this one.

As for Marowak, I'm obviously bias but I still don't see him overcentralising anything too much. Bulky Waters and Grassers like Blastoise and Meganium would bump up to 209 to outrun and KO...if Weezing were to go down, there'd certainly be a big shout for Marowak considering Weezing is still one of his best counters.
 
You are right ODDish about the Scarf, but I'm used to use Scarf Golduck so I didn't reallize about that.

About Clefable, if it carries Facade and Fire Blast it must lose some power in attack or in defenses to do Fire Blast strong enough. As ODDish said, Probopass could be a good counter to Facade set, but I find that there is a move which really helps with Clefable and which people don't use: Taunt. Clefable will lose Wish, Softboiled, Protect, Encore, Belly Drum, Calm Mind, Thunder Wave... and its attack isn't that great without a boost. A lot of UU stuff learn Taunt, and some of them successfuly.

Kabutops... I will say that it's too strong for UU, because it can sweep entire teams if you don't have the right counter to its set. It's like Swords Dance Lucario, we know that it uses Swords Dances, but we don't know their other three attacks, which tell us which one is its counter, and you may lose a pokemon discovering it.

I don't know what is the need to put Venusaur in UU, which will mean that Meganium or Vileplume will lose a lot of usage because of that. We are sending a lot of defensive pokemons to UU, and this will turn into a stall (even more) metagame.
 
Pursuit is also a lot rarer in UU...I can't really think of anything that uses the move on a regular basis.
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With the re-emergence of WishHypno, and current popularity of Froslass and Rotom to wall rapid spinning, Pursuit is being used with more regularity than it has been, meaning Sheddy is not quite as safe as it might think.
 
There is no point in arguing whether Shedinja should be UU or not because no one will use it anyway. It had its merits in ADV but it is complete trash in D/P, with the advent of Tspikes, SR, physical Pursuit, Sucker Punch, etc. Not to mention Swellow, who is on half of the UU teams now...

And how can you ban Shedinja yet justify Scyther because it takes 50% from Stealth Rocks? Seriously...Sableye is about as likely to sweep a team as Sheddy is. At least it can last long enough to toxic something.
 
Cynthia said:
Magmar,Electabuzz, and Tangela are all currently banned on the UU ladder. The only NFE's currently considered unique are Scyther,Trapinch, Pikachu, Vigoroth, and Clamperl.
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Well now that I've been thinking about it; Eevee meets the required criteria of those above for being considered unique. It should be moved onto the list of distinct NFE's. Any objections? I can elaborate further if needed.

Weezing partners so well with Steelix that he risks throwing the UU metagame into a stallfest. I'm a little hesitant on this one.
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That's what I was worried about in the first place. A short testing period would be great to find out for sure though.

As for Marowak, I'm obviously bias but I still don't see him overcentralising anything too much. Bulky Waters and Grassers like Blastoise and Meganium would bump up to 209 to outrun and KO...if Weezing were to go down, there'd certainly be a big shout for Marowak considering Weezing is still one of his best counters.
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I would say that having all the counters bump up to a certain speed just to make sure they're fast enough to KO is centralizing. Even then Blastoise and Meganium have troubling switching into a move with little to no risk to themselves (Bar EQ for Meganium). One of the things that holds extremely strong choice banders in check in UU is the fact that they can be predicted against, they cannot freely switch moves otherwise I think some would be banned.
 
There are quite a few Pokemon that probably fit the bill as unique NFE's that haven't been explored yet. Take Shelgon for example. It has different typing, a different trait, and a higher base stat in an area that Salamence.
 
I haven't really followed the thread lately, so I'm only commenting on the current topic.

It may just be me but I've considered Shelgon, Pupitar and Dragonair, Electabuzz, Magmar perfectly viable NFE's for a long time in the same vein as Vigoroth. Shed Skin really is a wonderful ability and Electivire speed hits a relatively useless number compared to Electabuzz's 105. It outspeeds Garchomp anyday of the week compared to its evolution who is good as dead, equals Lopunny, Manetric, Scyther and outspeeds base 100's a very important number.
 
Following along with my previous post, I'd just like to state what I, as an individual who likes the UU metagame the most, would like to see.

I basically want the second option, except without emphasis on the lower tier. We create a balanced tier with the pool of BL and UU (and now NFE) Pokemon, and then create a faux tier that moves any Pokemon too powerful up to there.

Essentially, I want Obi's idea of unbanning all BL Pokemon to determine some tier to be implemented on a side ladder, and once the ban list is determined, for this to be moved onto the main ladder under whatever category. BL is fine for me. The faux tier can have a new name.

We'll have one ladder with Ubers, OU, BL, and UU, and people on both sides will be happy, as now there is a (hopefully) balanced tier including the majority of BL Pokemon, and there is the current UU metagame, which can continue to have little changes as they are currently going.

I don't really like this status quo with the UU metagame, and I definitely think this thread's way about making changes to the UU metagame is severely flawed, but "awww what the hell."

One choice isn't going to make everyone happy...so why not do both and make everyone happy?

If people are unhappy still because the other choice exists...well, kindly shove it ^_^
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About this post - I would even see the NU tier for really simple reason - who will use after freeing all BL to UU tier pokemon like Whishcash, Plusle, Minun, Delibird, etc. especially if some BL's will be accepted as new UU ? Sometimes I really liked to play with my friends playing pseudo-tier NU and it was fun. But I like the present UU tier and I'm kinda conservative in that point. I don't like so much idea of freeing all BL's and I agree with most people which say 'no' for this idea. But I won't fight with it and let democracy decide which option if better - testing only few pokes from this thread or just free them all. In other words - just voting for it in opened for everyone thread on Smogon forum for me will be the best choice.

And besides I want to show how I see tiers and how to different them from each other, to fit them to each player.

Ubers
OU
BL
UU
NU

I think that perma-weather pokemons should be banned in UU and NU tier. Also for NU tier I would like to see banned Stealth Rock and Spikes, because I think in future most of pokes in NU will be most bug type or bug/flying type, so SR will just kill the game. If someone play NU now, knows what I mean. And only Delibird being a user of Rapid Spin, which is also weak to it ;). I don't think it will be different that much from the present one, if someone plays it.

And why UU ? Because pokemon like Omastar, Kabutops and another weather sweepers (with some exceptions, like Lumineon and Luvdisc) are way too strong for present UU. I used in OU Rain Dance team Kabutops and I need to say - it worked really well, heavily hurting many pokes (yep, standard SDChomp is nearly killed with Waterfall) and fragile ones are easily killed. Everything much more fragile was killed with one shot. For me Kabutops is BL, same goes for Omastar, but only with weather support. Maybe it's insane, but maybe you'll like my idea - in present UU metagame (and maybe for future NU and UU ones) we should just ban weather moves (Sandstorm, Hail, Rain Dance, Sunny Day) and let them be only in BL (maybe) and OU (in Ubers it's neccesary). And I would even try to put Abomasnow and don't allow Snover and Hippotas in BL and force them to OU. Why ? To create niche for those pokemon, which are too strong for UU and too weak for Ubers, to be effective with Kyogre and Groudon support and free UU from having too strong Rain Dance/Sunny Day teams. It would be a ladder with allowed weather, but without perma-weather pokemon. And of course normal teams. In other words it would help with this problem and you could even allow stay in UU pokemon like Kabutops, Omastar or Walrein in UU, but without weather. I'm sure that many of you will hate this idea, but it's just only proposition. And to tell the truth - I'm not so sure of it by myself.

In others words I see it like this:

Ubers - Perma-Weather of course allowed, with permanent Rain Dance and Sunny Day thanks to Groudon and Kyogre.
OU - Looks the same. Kyogre and Groudon are just too strong, so I think it will look the same in future - having so many SS and Hail teams.
BL - With allowed weather moves, but without permanent weather summoners. I think it would be interesting. And would help to balance Kabutops, Omastar, etc. problem. And which could be stopped by normal pokemon here, because BL ones will be of course stronger.
UU - No weather teams, another strategies, popular priority moves, etc. Really close to present one.
NU - No weather teams, no Stealth Rocks, Spikes, etc. because of the problem with rapid spinners. The only problem is that that few swift swim pokemon are too weak for BL or higher tier (Lumineon, Luvdisc, etc.), but I don't think someone could use them in situation which I presented here. Maybe allowing weather moves here is not that bad idea with probably having Kabutops, Omastar, etc. banned here.

It may just be me but I've considered Shelgon, Pupitar and Dragonair, Electabuzz, Magmar perfectly viable NFE's for a long time in the same vein as Vigoroth. Shed Skin really is a wonderful ability and Electivire speed hits a relatively useless number compared to Electabuzz's 105. It outspeeds Garchomp anyday of the week compared to its evolution who is good as dead, equals Lopunny, Manetric, Scyther and outspeeds base 100's a very important number.
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I think for me we should think about some criteria to even think about letting in some NFE's in UU (and maybe in other tiers in future). And to tell the truth I would see all of those pokes, which you showed here ;), because they're different enough. My definition for allowing NFE ? And I think allowing some NFE's in probably future BL metagame is not that bad idea (if they'll be too strong for UU)

a) It should has different at least one type then his fully evolved cousins (in other words Dragonair is different from Dragonair, because he lacks flying type or Pupitar/Larvitar (Larvitar have Guts, can work in TR team) which are so different from Tyranitar. So in other words no chance for Chancey, etc.
b) It should has different abilities (Shed Skin Dragonair vs Inner Focus Dragonair or Shed Skin Pupitar vs Guts Larvitar vs Sand Stream Tyranitar as examples or Static Electabuzz vs Motor Drive Electivire).
c) Should have at last few different stats
d) Or need to require all these points

What you think ?

And...

Banished to BL:
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- Feraligatr, Typhlosion, Crobat, Azumarill, Ursaring, Slowking, Mamoswine, Ambipom, Pinsir


Borderline UU's: (Ones under careful observation)
- Kabutops, Clefable, Scyther, Leafeon, Ninetales (reinstated by Astrohawke)


BL's moved down to UU:
Claydol, Cloyster, Steelix, Drapion, Leafeon, Jynx


BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
(presented in terms of levels of opposition)

- Shedinja (Very Low)
- Venusaur (Very Low)
- Weezing (Low/Average)
- Articuno (Low/Average)
- Miltank (Average)
- Aerodactyl (Average)
- Marowak (High/Average)
- Tauros (High/Average)
- Regigigas (High/Average)

BL's suggested for testing/movedown before but were blocked.
- Empoleon, Houndoom (rejected twice),Flygon, Entei (rejected twice), Arcanine (rejected twice), Honchkrow, Torterra, Espeon, Exeggutor, Porygon2, Ludicolo (rejected twice)

Widely Acceptable NFE's:
- Magmar, Electabuzz, Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Pikachu, Scyther

Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL):
Snover, Hippopatas
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Banished to BL - nothing else to say. I agree in 100% with it.

Bordeline's UU - I agree with Clefable, Kabutops and Ninetales. For me Omastar should be discussed here, because with Rain Dance his really strong.

BL's moved down to UU - For me Steelix is not that threatening thanks to his many weaknesses and really low special defence. And if you can prevent from using Roar from him to cancel of your physical sweepers boosts, this guy is not a big problem.

BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.

Shedinja - Not so sure. I won't comment this one.
Venusaur - I think he'll be just a better Vileplume/Meganium. For me bad idea.
Weezing - I don't it's the best idea. I agree that Weezing in UU would be like Blissey in OU. And having WoW on his side, don't help physical attackers.
Articuno - His weakness is annoying, but he has really good stats and horrible movepool. But still for me with Weezing/Miltank, etc. would make UU even more stallish. Too much for me.
Miltank - I love to use this girl in OU, on physical side with some investment it's really hard to take down. Max hp/Max hp looses 70-80% from 1x Swords Danced Lucarios Close Combat. Impressive in some point. For me Miltank is like a Normal-type Steelix with alot higher speed and healing move. As I love to use Miltank, I think his kinda too strong for me. But that's my opinion.
Aerodactyl - Not that bad defences in UU meaning, outspeeds everything non-scarfed. Maybe his attack is not an overkill, but still good in UU terms. For me also too strong.
Marowak - Without Weezing, in Trick Room - beast. No, just no.
Tauros - Similar to Marowak, but with better defences. Of course it's not a Marowak with overkill attack, but Intimidate + good defences are too much in my opinion.
Regigigas - Not sure. I won't comment this guy, because I never used him.

Sorry for so long post, but needed to post my opinion about all of this. Cheers.
 
I am really against Venusaur in UU. It will easily replace the jobs of Vileplume and Meganium, pretty much all the time. Adding in one pokemon to usurp the roles of two others is pretty much the opposite of what we're trying to promote in UU: diversity. We are trying to make MORE pokemon viable, not less.
 
How exactly does Venusaur usurp their roles? They all pretty much play the same role with only subtle differences, and even if it did what does usurping roles have to do with viability in a tier? Thats like saying we should ban Garchomp because it outclasses Flygon or banning Infernape because it overshadows Blaziken, there is simply no point to that argument.

For what its worth Meganium already entirely out classes Vileplume stat-wise, while Venusaur and Meganium have exactly the same stats albeit Defense and Special Attack being switched around. They all even have roughly the same movepool wise except for a few select moves, there is little reason for Venusar to be left in BL.
 
Honestly, who is going to use Vileplume or Meganium when Venusaur is around? Nobody, He doesn't bring ANYTHING new to the tier, he just replaces the UUs we already have. If he did something unique that warranted his presence, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but seriously, why are we adding so much crap to UU if it isn't really helping the game at all? We should be getting rid of stuff that causes problems with the tier rather than adding pokemon to it?

It'd be like if we moved down Donphan. Why would we do that if we've already got Sandslash, who does the exact same thing, but worse? Except in the case of Venusaur, we have several "sandslashes" that are going to be replaced by it.
 
skiddle said:
Honestly, who is going to use Vileplume or Meganium when Venusaur is around? Nobody, He doesn't bring ANYTHING new to the tier, he just replaces the UUs we already have. If he did something unique that warranted his presence, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but seriously, why are we adding so much crap to UU if it isn't really helping the game at all? We should be getting rid of stuff that causes problems with the tier rather than adding pokemon to it?

It'd be like if we moved down Donphan. Why would we do that if we've already got Sandslash, who does the exact same thing, but worse? Except in the case of Venusaur, we have several "sandslashes" that are going to be replaced by it.
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I think you should see maniac`s post for the answer, also I thought bl was for banning things too strong for uu/ low used ous
 
skiddle said:
Honestly, who is going to use Vileplume or Meganium when Venusaur is around? Nobody, He doesn't bring ANYTHING new to the tier, he just replaces the UUs we already have. If he did something unique that warranted his presence, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but seriously, why are we adding so much crap to UU if it isn't really helping the game at all? We should be getting rid of stuff that causes problems with the tier rather than adding pokemon to it?

It'd be like if we moved down Donphan. Why would we do that if we've already got Sandslash, who does the exact same thing, but worse? Except in the case of Venusaur, we have several "sandslashes" that are going to be replaced by it.
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Honestly, why do you think that even matters? You don't bring a pokemon down a tier because it "simply brings somthing new to the table". If Donphan were viable in UU then there is no reason to keep it out of UU regardless as to if it outclasses Sandslash or Claydol or whatever.

And what exactly is causing problems in the tier? Of the 5 pokemon listed to be "under careful observation" only 2 have been spoken about recently those two being Clefable and Kabutops and even if we were to remove all 5 of the pokemon in the "under careful observation list" why should that even stop us from adding pokemon into the tier.
Brawlex said:
I think you should see maniac`s post for the answer, also I thought bl was for banning things too strong for uu/ low used ous
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BLs sole purpose is to ban pokemon too strong for UU
 
I don't really care if Venusaur gets moved down to UU, I'm just voicing my opinion. I believe that while there is little reason it should in BL, there is no reason at all to move it downward to UU. We already have several good bulky grassers. Leafeon is already annoying as hell ( I almost miss meganium) but adding something else that outclasses them means there is no reason to use the old UU grassers at all.

From a competitive standpoint moving V-saur down seems like a good idea but for the people that play UU on a regular basis it's going to be another BL dropout that'll be spammed on every team.
 
If there is little reason for it to be BL then there is more than enough reason for it to be UU. Just because UU may have several good Grass types is no reason to exclude Venusaur from being moved to that tier. Also you keep mentioning how Venusaur outclasses all other Grass types in UU without actually listing any evidence or at least reasons as to why you think so which isn't really helping your argument much.

Personally, I think its just a beefed up Vileplume that's more on par with Meganium while not having much distinguishable moves or features aside from it's Poison typing and small differences in it's movepool.
 
Why is Zangoose in the BL tier? I think it would find more usage in UU than in OU.

Base Stats:
HP-73
This is by no means a good HP base stat, but it is not absolutely terrible, but when paired with its lacking defenses, Zangoose cannot take many hits before going down.

Atk-115
This is as almost as high as it gets in UU, barring the occasional base 120. It can do some decent damage with its above average movepool, but this is not so impressive that it cannot be stopped by the likes of Torkoal or Steelix, although the latter not liking repeated Close Combats.

Def-60
Pretty awful, even by UU standards. This thing will not take a hit from a Hitmontop Mach Punch anytime soon.

Satk-60
This stat is useless on something like Zangoose, barring a gimmick Hidden Power at best

Sdef-60
The same as its craptastic Def. It will not be able to take a Vacuum Vave well at all.

Spd-90
By UU standards, not the best, but better than average. This will allow it to outspeed something like Hitmonlee. It will be left slower than Rotom and more importantly Primeape.

Base Stat Total: 458

Ability-Immunity
This ability will be somewhat useful, allowing it to come in on predicted Toxics and switch in on a field with two layers of Toxic Spikes without worry. It is not the best ability out there, but it is handy.

Movepool:
It has an above average move-pool, with access to Close Combat, the elemental punches, and Shadow Claw, but there is nothing outstanding about it. It recieves no signature move, barring Crush Claw, but that is now easily obtained by many Pkmn via breeding. It gets a priority move in the way of Quick Attack, and it also has the stat upping Swords Dance. With these in mind it can prove a potent physical threat. It also has Pursuit for frail Pkmn switching out, and Taunt to stop pHazing attempts or stat drops.

Counters:
Hitmontop is the first thing that comes to mind. It can switch in and Intimidate, then scare it off with a Life Orb Mach Punch. If it switches in on a Swords Dance, it would be even better. Mach Punch does:
66.32% - 78.13% That is the Rapid Spinner set against a 4 HP/Min Def nuetral Zangoose.

Unfortunately, a +1 Max Atk Adamant Life Orb Quick Attack does this much to a Max HP/Min Def Nuetral Hitmontop 66.78% - 78.62%

Rotom, Banette and Torkoal come to mind as other potent counters. All three can come in on a Return or Close Combat, and scare with the threat of a burn. The first two can also paralyze with Thunder Wave, but they must also be wary of Shadow Claw and Pursuit. TrickSpecs Banette can be particularly nasty when taking Zangoose down, as it can cripple it with the restricting item and Thunder(Wave) it, further crippling with paralysis.

Summary:
In summary, I find that Zangoose, although somewhat potent, does not have what it takes for the upper tiers beyond being outshined by the likes of Lucario and Garchomp. In UU it could, and I think would see some real usage, and it could vastly affect the tier. Thank you.
 
Maniaclyrasist said:
How exactly does Venusaur usurp their roles? They all pretty much play the same role with only subtle differences, and even if it did what does usurping roles have to do with viability in a tier?
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Vileplume is eactually the middle ground of Venusaur and Meganium, heres some facts just so theres some actual ground. So many people compare them to each other that they actually forget whats unique between them.

Meganium-
Learns both types of screens, Leech Seed, pure grass, Aromatherapy and Counter.

Venusaur-
Learns only Light Screen, shares Leech Seed and Leaf Storm with Meganium. However also gets additional poison typing, Amnesia, Roar, Sleep Powder, STAB Sludge Bomb, Charm, STAB Seed Bomb, Swords Dance and Curse. Statwise its same as Meganium but with special attack switched with defense. Its also the bulkiest abuser of the Subseedsleep combo.

Vileplume-
Does NOT learn Leech Seed or Leaf Storm. Shares Synthesis with the other two, shares STAB Sludge Bomb, Charm, Sleep Powder with Venusaur. Only shares Aromatherapy with Meganium. Has Chlorophyll, Tickle and Stun Spore to distinguish itself from the other two, oh and the lowest stats of all three.
 
In summary, I find that Zangoose, although somewhat potent, does not have what it takes for the upper tiers beyond being outshined by the likes of Lucario and Garchomp. In UU it could, and I think would see some real usage, and it could vastly affect the tier. Thank you.
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Unfortunately nobody cares about how its doing in OU because its completely irrelevant. What we care about is how it affects UU.
 
I think for me we should think about some criteria to even think about letting in some NFE's in UU (and maybe in other tiers in future). And to tell the truth I would see all of those pokes, which you showed here ;), because they're different enough. My definition for allowing NFE ? And I think allowing some NFE's in probably future BL metagame is not that bad idea (if they'll be too strong for UU)

a) It should has different at least one type then his fully evolved cousins (in other words Dragonair is different from Dragonair, because he lacks flying type or Pupitar/Larvitar (Larvitar have Guts, can work in TR team) which are so different from Tyranitar. So in other words no chance for Chancey, etc.
b) It should has different abilities (Shed Skin Dragonair vs Inner Focus Dragonair or Shed Skin Pupitar vs Guts Larvitar vs Sand Stream Tyranitar as examples or Static Electabuzz vs Motor Drive Electivire).
c) Should have at last few different stats
d) Or need to require all these points

What you think ?
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Typing should be one, examples: Eevee, Shelgon, Dragonair Pupitar. A stat that poses an "immediate" (Without set up) advantage over it's evolved counterpart, examples: Magmar, Electabuzz and Tangela. Trait could also be used, examples: Vigoroth (Vital Spirit) and Eevee (Adaptability).

Requiring all those points would insure we have the most "unique" cast when it comes to NFE's in UU. However I think just having "one immediate" advantage over it's evolved counterpart should be enough. More opinions on this would be great.
---
but adding something else that outclasses them means there is no reason to use the old UU grassers at all.
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Please do not lie. Though the grass pokemon can be considered "similar" they are not "identical". They each have some sort of advantage over the other to warrant use on a team.

Also Forsety not to nitpick but doesn't Vileplume learn leech seed through an event (like Wish Blissey)?
 
On the topic of allwoing NFEs, I say a special case should be made in the case of Gligar. Although I'm aware that it does nothing to differentiate itself from Gliscor, I think it would occupy a great spot in today's UU Metagame.

This is the lack of switchin to the popular fighting type pokemon. Gligar can switch into every physical fighter with ease (barring the odd Ice Punch on the less common fighters and Poliwrath, although Wrath has his own specific set of counter). Maniac brought up the unpopular idea of Weezing in the metagame to handle fighting types and I think Gligar could handle this postion without upsetting the metagame too much. The huge amount of physical water moves is one example that states that Gligar would certainly not be impossible.

IKinda tired, so sorry if this argument isn't up to scratch =(
 
Puggy said:
On the topic of allwoing NFEs, I say a special case should be made in the case of Gligar. Although I'm aware that it does nothing to differentiate itself from Gliscor, I think it would occupy a great spot in today's UU Metagame.

This is the lack of switchin to the popular fighting type pokemon. Gligar can switch into every physical fighter with ease (barring the odd Ice Punch on the less common fighters and Poliwrath, although Wrath has his own specific set of counter). Maniac brought up the unpopular idea of Weezing in the metagame to handle fighting types and I think Gligar could handle this postion without upsetting the metagame too much. The huge amount of physical water moves is one example that states that Gligar would certainly not be impossible.

IKinda tired, so sorry if this argument isn't up to scratch =(
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I highly support the addition of Gligar! Having more interesting options than Weezing, like Baton Pass, is another merit the little one going for it, and UU could definitely use less sucky baton passers.
 
Puggy said:
On the topic of allwoing NFEs, I say a special case should be made in the case of Gligar. Although I'm aware that it does nothing to differentiate itself from Gliscor, I think it would occupy a great spot in today's UU Metagame.

This is the lack of switchin to the popular fighting type pokemon. Gligar can switch into every physical fighter with ease (barring the odd Ice Punch on the less common fighters and Poliwrath, although Wrath has his own specific set of counter). Maniac brought up the unpopular idea of Weezing in the metagame to handle fighting types and I think Gligar could handle this postion without upsetting the metagame too much. The huge amount of physical water moves is one example that states that Gligar would certainly not be impossible.

IKinda tired, so sorry if this argument isn't up to scratch =(
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I'm sure your well aware of what will happen if this exception is made with regards to future movement non-distinct NFE's. More opinions needed.
 
evolutia said:
I'm sure your well aware of what will happen if this exception is made with regards to future movement non-distinct NFE's. More opinions needed.
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There was an under-discussed topic on Policy Review on this issue, but the general consensus was that all NFEs (except those strong enough to be BL) should be unbanned in UU. Has that topic been brought up at all in this thread?
 
That Policy Review topic has not been brought up (Unless I missed someone talking about it) here. A general discussion of NFE's has been brought up but that's been two sided.
 
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