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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

I'd definitely oppose to allowing Shedinja in UU. The lack of auto-weather makes him even harder to stop, and there's no guarantee Stealth Rocks will be down (even then, we have Focus Sash). Shedinja just renders so many Pokemon obselete unless they purposely use a Fire, Dark, Ghost, Rock, or Flying attack in their moveslot.

It really just makes it a lot more difficult for many Pokemon, making some (like Probopass, Arbok, Politoad, and Stantler -- all of which I've used) set-up fodder against Shedinja unless they go out of their way for moves with redundant type coverage or otherwise pointless uses. So many strategies are rendered obselete, so many Pokemon are left useless unless they pack one of five types.

What are decent Shedinja counters?

- Aggron
- Steelix (Stone Edge)
- Torkoal
- Sandslash (Stone Edge)
- Quagsire (Stone Edge)

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Of those, only Torkoal can take a Will-o-Wisp, and only Steelix is common.
I came across Shedinja quite a lot last generation, and simply slapping Pursuit on my Choice Band Fearow was enough to stop it cold, not matter what it decided to do. With the sheer number of things that learn it, I don't think Shedinja would be used much even if it were to become UU.

So yes, Shedinja for UU.
 
What I don't like about Shedinja in UU, as I have stated, is that it stops so many Pokemon completely no matter how many counters it has. All it needs is a Spinner (it's not as if they are to fit on your team; hi Claydol/Blastoise/Sandslash) and it's set to go: you don't even need weather support with the lack of auto-weather. It renders Choice users completely helpless, and it stops nearly every strategy 100%, even if you then send out Camerupt to Lava Plume it.
 
Pursuit it, and it's gone. Shedinja is always a huge risk for the person using it.

No, it's not automatically gone. Shedinja carries Focus Sash, so while Pursuit may take off the Focus Sash while Shedinja switches out, the Shedinja user's obviously going to predict the Pursuit user's switch-in next time Shedinja's out, which gives the player a free switch to a counter if they predict correctly.
 
What I don't like about Shedinja in UU, as I have stated, is that it stops so many Pokemon completely no matter how many counters it has. All it needs is a Spinner (it's not as if they are to fit on your team; hi Claydol/Blastoise/Sandslash) and it's set to go: you don't even need weather support with the lack of auto-weather. It renders Choice users completely helpless, and it stops nearly every strategy 100%, even if you then send out Camerupt to Lava Plume it.

You are seriously overrating Shedinja. You make it seem that as long as you don't have Sandstorm or Hail up your going to lose to it, which clearly isnt the case. Shedinja is weak to Flying, Fire, Dark, Ghost and Rock, 4 of those are generally common in UU with only Flying attacks being the rarity.

Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes also can not be simply ignored because you have a spinner. A spinner will not be able to spin them away everytime they are set up. Which means you are pretty much playing with one useless pokemon on your team unless you can get rid of these spikes every single time you would like to switch shedinja in.

Also you see every other poke packing Toxic as a way to damage walls switching in. This is one factor definitely not in Shedinja's favour, seriously I don't even see Shedinja doing much in UU aside from being an annoyance in the early game.
 
Shedinja was not a threat in ADV, and now we have Rotom packing shadow Ball on many teams, as well as stealth rock and toxic spikes proliferation.

Moving Weezing to UU because Drapion and Leafeon are there is not a great idea when neither will probably ultimately remain in UU anyway (I have not read through this thread much, so unless I am missing out on something major, Drapion at least seems far too threatening for UU, while Leafeon seems to bring a lot of outrage).
 
Weezing to UU? Lol.

There is a central issue with questions such as moving Steelix to UU - it is not whether said pokemon is too powerful for UU, because clearly, walls such as Steelix are never going to sweep - but it is whether the pokemon moved outclass certain other pokemon in their tier.

That is crucial to determine, and why I believe even the move of Steelix down to UU to have been wrong : Sure, you'll have something which completely nullifies Scyther and Swellow, two of the most preeminent threats in UU, among many others - but then again, Aggron, Bastiodon, Golem and Probopass already had that ability to a certain extent.
All those 4, which had decent usage in UU, are completely and fully outclassed by Steelix and will thus be near to obsolete. Why would I ever use another physical wall in UU now?

This is pointless in an UU metagame which is supposed to promote diversity. In fact, I'd go as far as stating Steelix to UU is nearly an equivalent to moving Giratina to OU.
 
The statement that those are made obsolete by Steelix is false. Aggron and Golem, for one, have existant offense, something Steelix can never claim. If one is looking for something that can wall Swellow, while not being offenseless, they will not automatically turn their heads to Steelix.

I'm also in favor of Obi's idea, as I voiced in Policy Review.
 
To an extent I agree about steelix moving down to UU. It's extremely clear that it's become the best steel to use in UU. 4 out of 5 teams I come across will have one and I hardly ever see aggron, probopass, bastiodon or mawile. They at least had their uses for stopping swellow before. While aggron still has some uses as an offensive force, the others are very much outclassed by steelix.

However, I'm of two minds with regards to this topic. The bringing of steelix to UU did give more options for walling threats like swellow and scyther. These would otherwise run rampant and be extremely hard to stop. But we have to realize the high usage of pokemon such a steelix has just as much to do with the overpowering nature of threats like swellow and scyther.

What choice do we really have if we don't want to be swept by these monsters? There are other options to steelix of course as there have always been but steelix is mostly superior to these others that it becomes the obvious choice when building a team. Although it should be noted that to stop scyther, steelix would need stone edge. The stone edge had better not miss either because a SD LO brick break from scyther can 2HKO the analysis standard (which everyone seems to use). This is one of the reasons I hate scyther in UU.

Perhaps instead of moving better walls like steelix and weezing down to UU, we should first consider removing the threats that force us to carry these walls in the first place. We have less need for steelix if scyther and swellow(scyther more than swellow since swellow can be walled by any rock or steel while scyther is nearly unwallable) aren't present and we don't need weezing as much without the threat of pokemon like leafeon and drapion.
 
All those 4, which had decent usage in UU, are completely and fully outclassed by Steelix and will thus be near to obsolete. Why would I ever use another physical wall in UU now?

Hmm ... Golem has been near "NU" levels of useage for a good while so I don't think Steelix can be blamed for a decline in its useage ...

I'm also not sure that you can class Probopass in that group as its walling capabilities have always been more geared toward the special side, and really the presence of Steelix could lead to an increase in its useage as a Steel "trapper".

Bastiodon I'm afraid I don't know enough about to comment, its one of the few lower tier pokemon I've never had any inclination to use.

This leaves Aggron, which to be perfectly honest I've never really considered that useful a "wall" in the first place.

I do however agree that we were perhaps a tad premature in the movedown, and regret encouraging it now.
 
Drapion at least seems far too threatening for UU, while Leafeon seems to bring a lot of outrage).
Drapion at least to the more experienced players was one of the first proven to be rather lacklustre in sweeper potential. Really it has pretty bad base power on most of its attacks...

All those 4, which had decent usage in UU, are completely and fully outclassed by Steelix and will thus be near to obsolete.
Aggron- No. Just no. Aggron couldn't physical wall to save its life.
Golem- ......you do realize Golem is more of an attacker right and it has two super common 4x weaknesses and the two most common physical weaknesses?
Probopass- Is a special wall that just happens to be physical...
Bastiodon- Who the hell would use Bastiodon with Probopass around? The thing sucks so bad whoever created it should be shot.

Why would I ever use another physical wall in UU now?
Because Shuckle actually is a better wall all round? Torkoal isn't weak to fighting and can burn people on top too? Claydol is practically immune to Rock/Fighting? Hitmontop doesn't have crap for offense?

Seriously I've never even had to use Steelix period and the last upteen times I faced one it exploded onto a Substitute or got mauled by status.

Perhaps instead of moving better walls like steelix and weezing down to UU, we should first consider removing the threats that force us to carry these walls in the first place.
You could also reverse that question. Who decided these threats should exist in UU to begin with and who set the bar in the first place. It all started because a assumed Advance UU bar was used causing this problem and ever since this topic has been simply catching up to see if we can hit that bar.
 
In the case of steelix, I believe its usage is high because it's a swellow and scyther counter in one. The other steels can counter swellow but not scyther because of 4x weak to brick break. The scyther counters like torkoal get mauled switching into guts facade.

Because of this, even though pokemon like probopass and aggron serve different purposes to steelix, their usage is still being indirectly affected.

If aggron is my swellow counter, I'd need something else to stop scyther. So why not just use steelix to stop both. But if steelix is countering swellow for me, I'm not gonna want to use aggron as my physical attacker or probopass as my special wall because that just gives me a second steel type and more fight/ground weaknesses I don't need. I'm better off opting for another physical attacker or another special wall.

You could also reverse that question. Who decided these threats should exist in UU to begin with and who set the bar in the first place. It all started because a assumed Advance UU bar was used causing this problem and ever since this topic has been simply catching up to see if we can hit that bar.
It doesn't matter if you reverse the question even though it wasn't actually a question...but whatever. What I'm suggesting is that the counters should be in the tier where the threats are. If swellow and scyther are in UU, then we need steelix in UU. If drapion and leafeon are in UU, then we want weezing here too to stop them. Move the threats up, and the counters can stay up in BL as well.
 
Honestly there are plenty of other walls and sponges in UU people really need to experiment with. I mean I use a Drifblim to counter both Scyther and Swellow and it works great and frees me up to use other different teams. Lets not forget either unlike Scyther Swellow is a ticking timebomb.

Really UU has the biggest pool of viably competitive options and if people don't experiment then its their loss.
 
Weezing to UU? Lol.

There is a central issue with questions such as moving Steelix to UU - it is not whether said pokemon is too powerful for UU, because clearly, walls such as Steelix are never going to sweep - but it is whether the pokemon moved outclass certain other pokemon in their tier.

That is crucial to determine, and why I believe even the move of Steelix down to UU to have been wrong : Sure, you'll have something which completely nullifies Scyther and Swellow, two of the most preeminent threats in UU, among many others - but then again, Aggron, Bastiodon, Golem and Probopass already had that ability to a certain extent.
All those 4, which had decent usage in UU, are completely and fully outclassed by Steelix and will thus be near to obsolete. Why would I ever use another physical wall in UU now?

This is pointless in an UU metagame which is supposed to promote diversity. In fact, I'd go as far as stating Steelix to UU is nearly an equivalent to moving Giratina to OU.

One thing: 110 base attack.

Aggron > Steelix everytime by my book. >.>

But then I'm not using Aggron as a wall so much as a bulky sweeper.

To be honest, when steelix first came down it was all over the place. But I've seen fewer and fewer of them, and it always to ended getting one hit or two hit KO'd by this or that special attack it would accidentally switch into. I think people started realizing that the thing just hits for shit. Like seriously, shit.

As an example, LUXRAY defeats standard steelix 100% of the time with +spA nature Hidden Power. A physical electric type defeating a ground physical wall, every time, because standard steelix is 2hko'd by an unstabbed hidden power with only x2, and can't 1 hko with stab earthquake, and that's without being intimidated. Yeah, Steelix offenses and sp.D are lol. With all the fire, water, and ground attacks running around OU, he's just not very threatening in my book.

On another note, I have yet to see a single drapion. For all this talk about it, it doesn't seem to be getting much love. >.>
 
Honestly there are plenty of other walls and sponges in UU people really need to experiment with. I mean I use a Drifblim to counter both Scyther and Swellow and it works great and frees me up to use other different teams. Lets not forget either unlike Scyther Swellow is a ticking timebomb.

I don't know what kind of scythers you're countering with drifblim but even a max/max bold nature drifblim is 2HKOed by a SD LO aerial ace and it's OHKOed 100% of the time if it switches into SR as well. Meanwhile, even if you're running max SpAtk and modest, you can't OHKO scyther with thunderbolt but obviously you're not going to be doing that if you're pumping up the defenses to not be OHKOed by scyther so you're even worse off.

This is what's sad about UU right now. We all know how bad steelix is yet it's one of the best swellow and scyther counters and it counters those well. Therefore we're still going to use it even if it's only to stop those 2. And if we're using steelix, we're not using aggron and probopass on the same team.
 
All those 4, which had decent usage in UU, are completely and fully outclassed by Steelix and will thus be near to obsolete. Why would I ever use another physical wall in UU now?

You are acting as if Steelix is the ADV/GSC Skarmory of UU, that it walls nearly every physical threat with ease. This is not the case by any stretch of the imagination. Kingler, Sharpedo, fighting-types, Crawdaunt-- all of which destroy Steelix easily. Without reliable recovery, all a physical attacker needs is a moderately strong Earthquake and a neutrality to Earthquake and it will beat Steelix one-on-one.

You act as if it makes all other physical walls obselete, which is not the case at all. Claydol has support options outside of Stealth Rock, is the perfect Fighting-type counter (watch out for Primeape Ice Punch), and has decent SpD. In exchange for Ground, Fire, and Fighting weaknesses, it has Dark, Ghost, Bug, Grass, and Ice. The only disadvantage it has (in terms of physical walling) over Steelix is taking more from Leafeon Leaf Blade and Crawdaunt/Sharpedo Crunch. In exchange for that it gets valuable resistances to Fighting attacks and QuakeSlide.

Shuckle has better typing, and better support moves (who cares about offense when it gets more than a single support option?). It also is one of the best special walls.

Torkoal can Spin, counter Scyther just as well, Stealth Rock, and also has status moves for extra support.

etc.


On a side note, I've been using Probopass religiously ever since Steelix came out just TO trap Steelix, so there goes the whole "it makes other Steel-types obselete" argument. I also like how Probopass can act as a special wall decently.
 
Steelix is not the end all wall to every situation as people seem to judge it as. As Umbarsc pointed out they are other walls in UU that simply fufill other roles, that doesn't mean that they are outclassed.

Steelix outclasses Propobass, Bastiodon, Golem and Aggron as walls but thats just about it, everything else serves some role that Steelix simply cannot do. Weezing would be similar as it would help serve as a counter to some of the bigger physical threats in UU like Leafeon and Scyther who Steelix actually fails to stop most of the time.

People say that UU is becoming more and more stall based which by definition is true, but it's not turning into the next GSC. I'd actually say it is becoming more balanced similar to how ADV was. If you played UU regularly before Steelix and company were introduced then you would have seen that UU was mostly offensive, walls like Steelix and Weezing would actually help in bringing some balance to UU.
 
I don't know what kind of scythers you're countering with drifblim but even a max/max bold nature drifblim is 2HKOed by a SD LO aerial ace and it's OHKOed 100% of the time if it switches into SR as well.
At the same time Scyther switching into SR and getting one LO recoil takes 60% instantly. Its dead to any old priority attack revenge kill anyway.

Secondly Drifblim will always outspeed Scyther with Unburden and Sitrus Berry. So even if it doesn't attack it can paralyze, burn, explode, destiny bond etc. multiple attrocities which instantly take it out or disable it and lets it maybe live on to grief the next switch in. In fact even if Drifblim couldn't outspeed Scyther than simply letting Drifblim survive has already sealed Scythers fate since an attack would cripple it.

On another note, I have yet to see a single drapion. For all this talk about it, it doesn't seem to be getting much love. >.>
Same here, I honestly think its all the hype of players normally accustomed to OU. In all my UU battles I've only ever seen two Drapions...and one was my own.
 
All I'm saying is that these are only shaky counters at best. I don't know the drifblim set you use and there isn't one in the analysis so I assumed the best possible case scenario for drifblim while using standard jolly scyther.

Somehow I highly doubt the drifblim is max HP max Def and Bold but even if it were, taking 77.98% - 91.87% from a SD LO aerial ace is no joke. With SR down, that drifblim is dead. And we're not talking about being able to revenge kill scyther once it's switched into rocks and taken a bunch of LO damage. We're talking about countering it.

Not to mention you'd pretty much be forced to keep drifblim in hiding for the whole match until the scyther shows itself. If it's taken some damage beforehand trying to wall something else, then that 2HKO from scyther easily becomes an OHKO. It's not exactly the type of counter I'd feel comfortable with.

There's almost a garchomp-like situation with scyther in UU. Practically all of its counters can be 2HKOed. It's actually surprisingly bulky that a lot of 2x effective attacks don't OHKO it. Counters like steelix or quagsire relying on stone edge or torkoal using WoW can miss and then get 2HKOed similar to how sand veil messes with many chomp counters now. I wouldn't be surprised if we started getting scythers carrying rock-resist berries and turning those rock attacks from its counters into 2HKOs.

The only difference is the SR weakness which isn't as big of a deal or as crippling as some people make it out to be. Any smart scyther user would probably be carrying a spinner and given how fragile most UU ghosts are, it's more than likely that by the time scyther comes out late game, the ghost will be dead and the rocks will be gone (especially if the ghost is switching into the spinners and taking an attack constantly). However, even if scyther takes that 50% from switching in, it's not like it can't sweep at 50%. With LO, if you're lacking ways to deal with it late game (counters hurt/dead or whatnot), it'll still take out 3-5 of your pokemon before going down which is more than enough. What it comes down to most of the time from what I've seen is having a revenge killer deal with it. But that's exactly the argument against garchomp isn't it? Why do we need a "counter" and then a revenge killer to take down a single pokemon?
 
You are seriously overrating Shedinja. You make it seem that as long as you don't have Sandstorm or Hail up your going to lose to it, which clearly isnt the case. Shedinja is weak to Flying, Fire, Dark, Ghost and Rock, 4 of those are generally common in UU with only Flying attacks being the rarity.

I am not over-rating it. I accept that it's fairly easy to counter, and I definitely don't claim that it's going to automatically going to beat you if you don't put up weather. However, I am concerned by the fact that it walls so much of UU. You'll have to go out of your way to avoid being completely stopped by it with a lot of Pokemon.

Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes also can not be simply ignored because you have a spinner. A spinner will not be able to spin them away everytime they are set up. Which means you are pretty much playing with one useless pokemon on your team unless you can get rid of these spikes every single time you would like to switch shedinja in.

Then again, Rapid Spinning cannot simply be ignored because there aqre Ghost-types. A spiker will not be able to set up their entry hazards every game.

And Rapid Spinning honestly isn't hard in UU. Rotom, the primary anti-spinner, is very frail, and it won't enjoy taking Blastoise Surf, Hitmontop Stone Edge, Sandslash Night Slash, etc. Not only that, but two UU Pokemon get the Rapid Spin + Yawn combo that basically forces a Spin unless you carry a Rest-Talking Ghost in an environment without Dusknoir/Spiritomb.

Also you see every other poke packing Toxic as a way to damage walls switching in.

I've never really noticed an overabundance of Toxic.

This is one factor definitely not in Shedinja's favour, seriously I don't even see Shedinja doing much in UU aside from being an annoyance in the early game.

I'd actually see it as being more of a threat in the late-game than an annoyance in the early game. Whose to say that your Aggron/Steelix got taken out by a Probopass, and now you have nothing that can touch it? Whose to say that you spent your entire efforts on setting up Dragon Dance Lapras, and now Shedinja comes out, walling Return/Waterfall?
 
You say that Shedinja walls a lot of stuff in UU. Lets see the most used pokes in UU:

  • Swellow: Brave Bird or Pursuit.
  • Persian: Bite is quite used, but others sets have problems.
  • Froslass: Shadow Ball.
  • Jumpluff: it carries Aerial Ace, but Leech Seed and Sleep Powder can kill Shedinja too.
  • Manectric: Overheat/Flamethrower are a must in Manectric.
  • Rapidash: Flare Blitz or Will-o-Wisp.
  • Scyther: Aerial Ace and Pursuit.
  • Linoone: Shadow Claw is always there.
  • Ninetales: Flamethrower or Fire Blast.
  • Raichu: it has problems with Shedinja.
  • Drapion: Night Slash or Fire Fang.
  • Jynx: it has problems without Shadow Ball, but if Shedinja were UU, Shadow Ball would be in every choiced set.
  • Leafeon: I see some Leafeons with Toxic, and Aerial Ace is really used with Leaf Blade.
  • Primeape: Payback, Fire Punch or Stone Edge.
  • Sharpedo: Dark Pulse or Crunch.
  • Rotom: Shadow Ball.
  • Kanghaskan: it has problems, because with Scrappy it doesn't use Crunch, but it has that option.
  • Mr. Mime: it's barely used, but Shadow Ball is available.
  • Venomoth: completely walled without Toxic.
  • Hitmonlee: Blaze Kick or Stone Edge.
  • Golduck: Walled.
  • Nidoking: Sucker Punch, Stone Edge or Fire Blast.
  • Toxicroak: Sucker Punch only, it has problems with Will-o-Wisp.
  • Altaria: Specs set has a fire attack, Dragon Dance one doesn't.
  • Drifblim: Shadow Ball.
  • Grumpig: walled without Shadow Ball.
  • Kabutops: Stone Edge or Rock Slide.
  • Meganium: Toxic is always there, but HP Fire is really used.
  • Blastoise: Toxic is quite used, other way, it's walled.
  • Hitmonchan: Fire Punch or Stone Edge.
  • Nidoqueen: Stone Edge, and lays down Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes.
  • Absol: Night Slash and Sucker Punch.
  • Claydol: Walled.
  • Hitmontop: Stone Edge and some sets use Toxic.
  • Mantine: Walled if it lacks Toxic.
  • Noctowl: Air Slash.
  • Poliwrath: Walled.
  • Hypno: without Toxic, walled.
  • Lanturn: Walled.
  • Glaceon: Shadow Ball.
  • Pelipper: Air Slash.
  • Sandlash: Night Slash.
  • Walrein: Walled without Toxic.
  • Clefable: Walled.
  • Lapras: Walled.
  • Cacturne: Sucker Punch or Leech Seed.
  • Omastar: Ancient Power.
  • Relicanth: Head Smash.
  • Aggron: Stone Edge.
  • Muk: Fire Punch or Toxic.
  • Vileplume: HP Fire or Leech Seed.
  • Cradily: Rock Slide, Toxic or Stone Edge.
  • Camerupt: Eruption, Fire Blast, Rock Slide...
  • Gastrodon: Walled without Stone Edge.
  • Steelix: Toxic, Stealth Rock and Stone Edge.
  • Torkoal: Lava Plume and Will-o-Wisp.
  • Shuckle: Knock Off and Toxic.
Are you sure that it walls so much pokemons? I don't think so... most important are Clefable and Venomoth in my opinion.
 
I am not over-rating it. I accept that it's fairly easy to counter, and I definitely don't claim that it's going to automatically going to beat you if you don't put up weather. However, I am concerned by the fact that it walls so much of UU. You'll have to go out of your way to avoid being completely stopped by it with a lot of Pokemon.

Since when does the common UU team not have at least 2-3 ways of taking out Shedinja. As i said 4 out of 5 of Shedinja's weaknesses are all common attacking types and are expected to be in the majority if not all UU teams, so i don't see most users having to go "out of their way" to beat Shedinja.


And Rapid Spinning honestly isn't hard in UU. Rotom, the primary anti-spinner, is very frail, and it won't enjoy taking Blastoise Surf, Hitmontop Stone Edge, Sandslash Night Slash, etc. Not only that, but two UU Pokemon get the Rapid Spin + Yawn combo that basically forces a Spin unless you carry a Rest-Talking Ghost in an environment without Dusknoir/Spiritomb.

I never said Rapid Spinning was hard in UU, i just said that a spinner will not always have the oppurtunity to spin, especially everytime you want to bring in Shedinja which makes it a liability to your team everytime you have it.

I've never really noticed an overabundance of Toxic.

I'm surprised at that comment since i've hardly seen teams without it. It is one of the most common ways of taking out walls in UU after all.

I'd actually see it as being more of a threat in the late-game than an annoyance in the early game. Whose to say that your Aggron/Steelix got taken out by a Probopass, and now you have nothing that can touch it? Whose to say that you spent your entire efforts on setting up Dragon Dance Lapras, and now Shedinja comes out, walling Return/Waterfall?

Personally I think it would actually be harder to use Shedinja lategame because it's most likely that your spinner is dead or severly weakened therefore preventing you from stopping the laying down of any forms of spikes.

EDIT: Also in addition to Trust's list

  • Persian: Bite is quite used, but others sets have problems. (The Special Sets tend to pack Dark Pulse to beat Hypno and Grumpig.)
  • Drapion: Night Slash or Fire Fang. (As well as Pursuit)
  • Jynx: it has problems without Shadow Ball, but if Shedinja were UU, Shadow Ball would be in every choiced set. (Shadow Ball is already common on Jynx to beat opposing Psychics like Hypno and Grumpig)
  • Venomoth: completely walled without Toxic. (However it does pack Sleep Powder which can put Shedinja's efforts to a halt)
  • Toxicroak: Sucker Punch only, it has problems with Will-o-Wisp. (There are also Special variants of Toxicroak who don't care about Will O Wisp and also have access to Shadow Ball)
  • Meganium: Toxic is always there, but HP Fire is really used. (As well as Leech Seed)
  • Blastoise: Toxic is quite used, other way, it's walled.
  • Claydol: Walled. (I've seen quite a fee Claydol packing Shadow Ball just to hit Ghosts who would stop them from spinning)
  • Noctowl: Air Slash. (As well as Night Shade and can Psycho Shift back any status Shedinja sends it's way)
  • Sandslash: Night Slash. (As well as a common user of Stealth Rock and can also possibly pack Stone Edge.)
  • Clefable: Walled. (I've seen most of these carry Toxic on some stall set and there is always the option of Flamethrower)
  • Gastrodon: Walled without Stone Edge. (This commonly carries Toxic however.)
 
There's almost a garchomp-like situation with scyther in UU.

No there isn't, nothing of the sort. In fact in my experience I've only seen about 4 or 5 of them in the 30-odd battles I've had in the last week and a half.

Practically all of its counters can be 2HKOed.

Only after a Swords Dance (and holding a Life Orb) which you seem to think it gets for free. Nothing could be further from the truth. My current team carries none of the supposed counters to Scyther, but 5 out of 6 of them have some way of badly hurting or crippling it one-on-one, two are faster than Scyther and can OHKO and only two are weak to either Brick Break, X-Scissor, Night Slash or Aerial Ace. I have never found Scyther to be much of a threat because it simply does not get an opportunity to set up, and ends up being worn down by Stealth Rock very quickly. I do not feel that it is a team centralized against Scyther, it is just a team that I have found to work well in general in UU. Of course Scyther was kept in mind as a threat when building the team, but no more than every other threat.

btw, you also missed Luxray w/Intimidate as a SD Scyther counter. Very underrated, but a great counter to it nonetheless.

I am not over-rating it. I accept that it's fairly easy to counter, and I definitely don't claim that it's going to automatically going to beat you if you don't put up weather. However, I am concerned by the fact that it walls so much of UU. You'll have to go out of your way to avoid being completely stopped by it with a lot of Pokemon.

Let me put it another way. Given the vast number of ways to beat Shedinja and quickly remove it from the game, it is purely the fault of the teambuilder if they haven't took precautions to mount at least an adequate defence against it, which in most cases is all it requires. On the other hand, if you are battling a team that is well prepared against Shedinja, and still manage to remove all hazards and Pokemon that can hurt it whilst keeping it alive, then a lategame Shedinja clean-up is well deserved on your part, and your opponent will be first to acknowledge that.

And Rapid Spinning honestly isn't hard in UU.

Personally I've found it to be harder than it looks due to the fast paced nature of UU, although the main reason I use it is to allow Swellow to stick around for a couple of extra turns and occasionally protect my Electrode's Focus Sash, nothing too essential. I can only imagine how difficult it is to have at least 1/6th of your team relying on the success of your spinner, given that you have to use two non-threatening turns (for your opponent) each time you need to remove entry hazards. After the first time your strategy is revealed, allowing your opponent to predict and take advantage, making your task even more difficult.

Not only that, but two UU Pokemon get the Rapid Spin + Yawn combo that basically forces a Spin unless you carry a Rest-Talking Ghost in an environment without Dusknoir/Spiritomb.

cough*Banette*cough, although point taken that thing isn't the bulkiest of Pokemon. It can cause plenty of damage to your team though if you give it too many free switches.

I've never really noticed an overabundance of Toxic.

I have. All sorts of random walls and tanks seem to carry it, and I have recently given it to my Blastoise after realizing how much it fucks up the usual switch-ins.
 
I don't know the drifblim set you use and there isn't one in the analysis so I assumed the best possible case scenario for drifblim while using standard jolly scyther.
Truthfully the analysis is kind of weak. I might pluck out some of those nice Drifblim sets from the old thread and submit those sometime.

Not to mention you'd pretty much be forced to keep drifblim in hiding for the whole match until the scyther shows itself. If it's taken some damage beforehand trying to wall something else, then that 2HKO from scyther easily becomes an OHKO.
It has 3 useful immunities, Disable and a sleep move at its disposal. Whats so hard to believe about it not taking any damage?

btw, you also missed Luxray w/Intimidate as a SD Scyther counter. Very underrated, but a great counter to it nonetheless.
I actually rather like that idea, Luxray is a pretty bulky little thing should in theory work almost as nice as a bulky Arbok. Both have reliable access to paralysis too so they can steal a turn of Leftovers recovery before killing their prey.

  • Persian: Bite is quite used, but others sets have problems. (Dark Pulse is more common...)
  • Kanghaskan: it has problems, because with Scrappy it doesn't use Crunch, but it has that option. (Sucker Punch however is a great option for priority)
  • Toxicroak: Sucker Punch only, it has problems with Will-o-Wisp. (NP Toxicroak runs Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse)
  • Mantine: Walled if it lacks Toxic. (HP Flying actually gives immense coverage on the RD set)
 
Only after a Swords Dance (and holding a Life Orb) which you seem to think it gets for free. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Yes, only after a swords dance but that's garchomp's power in OU too isn't it? 2HKOs everything after a swords dance?

In fact in my experience I've only seen about 4 or 5 of them in the 30-odd battles I've had in the last week and a half.

Which I believe is because of steelix coming in as a better counter than most. The UU metagame was much more offensive and at least in my experience, scyther was a dominant offensive force. This was what the discussion was about in the first place. Having the walls where the threats are. Steelix coming to UU helped with walling scyther and swellow. Weezing coming to UU will help with leafeon and drapion.

My current team carries none of the supposed counters to Scyther, but 5 out of 6 of them have some way of badly hurting or crippling it one-on-one, two are faster than Scyther and can OHKO and only two are weak to either Brick Break, X-Scissor, Night Slash or Aerial Ace. I have never found Scyther to be much of a threat because it simply does not get an opportunity to set up, and ends up being worn down by Stealth Rock very quickly. I do not feel that it is a team centralized against Scyther, it is just a team that I have found to work well in general in UU. Of course Scyther was kept in mind as a threat when building the team, but no more than every other threat.
That's lucky for you then but you can't expect everyone to end up with a team where every one of their pokemon can cripple scyther in some way when it swords dances. And if you do then that's centralization against scyther. In my experience, in the hands of a good player, it has no trouble coming in and getting off that swords dance unharmed. It comes in easily on choice users and a bunch of walls that really fail to do anything to it or are too scared to stay in, in case it turns out to be a choice bander or whatnot. Most walls in UU tend to carry toxic as well as their status of choice and it's usually not worth trying to poison it. It makes it a ticking timebomb but it can easily take out a couple of your pokemon before it goes down. And if your toxic happens to miss, you'd be kicking yourself.

It has 3 useful immunities, Disable and a sleep move at its disposal. Whats so hard to believe about it not taking any damage?

Because it's a wall...and if the wall isn't taking the damage then who is? 3 useful immunities doesn't mean it's not taking any damage from other attacks. Unless you have godly prediction and plan to switch it in strictly on choiced fighting, ground and normal attacks. Then there's SR too obviously.
 
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