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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

matty said:
ok, but do the new pokes suggested need new sets that will make them much better? I honestly think that the analyses already there are going to be quiet effective in UU as it stands right now.

K thanks for answering my question ryomou. Didn't want to call you out, just wanted a solid answer from someone more involved. :toast:
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That we will obviously have to see. I'm not saying the standard sets for something like Weezing right now will not be effective in UU. But, if there is some tweaking that can be done or a set that is MORE effective comes up the analyses can still be better. Being a competitive site, striving for the best is pretty important right?

It seriously could be little stuff, like for example Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Ice not being necessary on Weezing, because there IS no Gyara or overpowering Dragons. Anyway, I agree though that Counters is probably more of an immediate issue to be addressed, if this whole revamping of analyses for these new pokemon come up.
 
Just voicing my opinion here:

Aerodactyl UU? Wtf are you guys thinking?

I'm trying to make sense out of these changes... So I see the recent additions of Miltank and Weezing walling Aero, but why bring those 3 down to UU? Can someone please explain this situation to me? >.<
 
I'm still trying to figure out the reasoning behind these changes. None of this is making any sense to me. I've read all the posts concerning the matter, but nothing has become any clearer. If anything, allowing those Pokemon in UU has completely turned me off from the tier.
 
Does that include BL NFEs as well? I don't see why not, although some people still have reservations.
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I would like to know the answer to this as well. It's one thing to not want UU filled with pokemon people see as Mini-OU but banning the NFE's of BL pokemon doesn't make sense to me. Banning the pre evolutions of pokemon who aren't commonly seen in an enviroment where those who aren't commonly seen/cannot compete with/in OU.

EDIT:

To the above two posts. The reason why these pokemon were moved down into UU is that while being discussed they had Average-Low opposition (I'm also sure there is a list somewhere of the list of all of the pokemon that were discussed).
 
- There is one UU Pokemon that outspeeds Aerodactyl with a boosting nature and 252 EVs.

- There is one UU Pokemon that ties Aerodactyl with a boosting nature and 252 EVs.

- There are 75 UU Pokemon that outspeed Aerodactyl with a boosting nature, 252 EVs, and a Choice Scarf.

- There are 50 UU Pokemon that outspeed Aerodactyl with a neutral nature, 252 Evs, and a Choice Scarf.

- There are 17 UU Pokemon that receive priority attacks that hit Aerodactyl for super-effective damage.
 
evolutia said:
To the above two posts. The reason why these pokemon were moved down into UU is that while being discussed they had Average-Low opposition (I'm also sure there is a list somewhere of the list of all of the pokemon that were discussed).
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It's in the back two pages. The ones remaining, (all of which I highly oppose, except perhaps for Tauros) are:

- Marowak (High/Average)
If this thing gets any speed at all behind its belt, gg. It has ok defenses for a sweeper, and with some investment, will be able to take some hits (investment away from its unsavable speed). The myriad of Speed passers in UU don't help matters, and if played well, Maro is an absolute beast. If anyone says Claydol is a counter, I'm going to laugh at you and direct you to one of my warstories: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32798, in which an uncanny bitch Ice Beam and Reflect Claydol that held me up for half the match meets its end at the hands of an SD Double-Edge (mind you, a counter must be able to switch in with little or no risk to itself, and this demonstrates the scenario in which Maro got an SD on the switch, then Claydol dies). The next turn also features it surviving a (presumably Specs) Moltres' Flamethrower because I ran a bulky spread, so please nobody argue it has paper-thin defenses (I proceeded the win the match after I discovered the Crobat had Cross Poison over AA, but of course I would have had no chance at all if Maro didn't survive). In fact, what makes Maro so dangerous is that when it gets the appropriate switch-in, almost nothing can stop SD + Thick Club, which as everyone knows puts Choice Band to shame. It doesn't even need to set up to sweep, though SD makes it all the deadlier. Not even Weezing will be able to handle SD'd hits too well, a max defense one taking 78.74% - 92.81% from a single SD and OHKO if the user decides to gamble and hope for a crit from Stone Edge. The bulky waters and Meganium must exercise caution (the latter is screwed if Fire Punch is run, but this is extremely rare outside of OU). The best counter could perhaps be Rotom, who will need to be wary of Stone Edge. It packs a useful immunity to T-wave, and WoW isn't too reliable to stop it, because it will still be a formidable attacking force since either Thick Club or SD will help neutralize it a bit. As a Marowak user, it is not UU material by any stretch IMHO, and I oppose it.

- Tauros (High/Average)
Intimidate and 75/95 physical defense eases switch-ins, and it's a little cheaper to use than other UU sweepers, but it can be stopped. The jury's out on this, I guess.

- Regigigas (High/Average)
Another one I highly oppose. Even in BL, this thing is a bitch to take down, and I'm usually stuck in the scenario of switching in Steelix, whittling its health down a bit, and PHazing it away before Slow Start's time's up. I know realize this method was pretty stupid, as Knock Off gets rid of its only method of recovery besides Wish supporters. But that's how UU's #1 Pokemon will fare against it. Remember that Slow Start on halves Attack and Speed, and only hampering it from blowing away your team. In the meantime, 110/110/110 defenses, Thunder Wave/Knock Off to cripple things, plus just enough power to give some of your fragile set-ups (i.e. Scyther, Absol) and Subs trouble. Plus...what's everyone saying? "The end of fighting dominance"? Well, then I'd say to take this out of the list of things considered for UU, or everyone should stick subbing Cursers on their team (i.e. Miltank).

Note that of these, I've only actually used Maro. =( So find flaws with the latter two whatever you want.
 
It's only been a couple of days, but I would like to hear some initial impressions about the group of Pokemon that was recently moved down to UU.

If you haven't used them and/or seen them in action, we're not really interested in what you "think". Aerodactyl, Miltank et al are now UU so you have no excuse for using theory alone to base your opinions on.
 
Steelix + Weezing has put almost a complete stop to physical attackers. The only ones that can get by are ones with STAB water/fire, or a powerful neutral attack on Weezing as well as Fire Blast.

I've only faced Miltank once, I can't comment on it. It did beat me but only because of several unlucky misses, and my counter was down. And it was a supporter, not a Curser, which I've heard are quite dangerous.

Venosaur has been annoying, but not particularly hard to deal with. Swellow can come in on everything but Sludge Bomb or HP Ice and force it out, and Clefable (especially with Toxic Orb) can handle anything it does and return with Ice Beam or Fire Blast.

I've never faced either Shedinja or Articuno. Stealth Rocks have made people too skittish to use them.

Aerodactyl has been a major pain. Double-edge/Earthquake/Stone Edge @ Life Orb beats almost every UU Pokemon, and then it has a free slot for whatever (I alternate between Roost and Fire Blast. Aerial Ace and Pursuit are also viable options). Its speed is the worst part about it, I've been forced to Scarf something I'd rather not just so I could take down should my "counter" (not exactly a perfect counter, is 3HKOed by Stone Edge) go down. Though it has been a successful Scarfer (and I may post the set in the Creative Movesets thread), it feels like a waste of potential.

Well that sums up my feelings about the unbanned Pokemon.
 
venusaur's presence is a little miffing, but i don't really have a problem taking it down. the worst it does is sleep one of my team members and leech seed another, but i basically deal with it in a very similar manner to vileplume. 3/6 of my current team are threatening enough to force it out.

weezing has forced me to alter my team towards a special attacking bias. like umbarsc mentioned, using it in conjunction with steelix pretty much renders my physical attackers useless, and i'm now using mixed attackers where i previously had physical ones. i'm not happy about being forced to add fire blast into movesets that would otherwise beat weezing or steelix one-on-one, and i feel that moving one or the other up to BL in the future might make physical attackers a little more viable.

to my surprise, i haven't faced aerodactyl nearly enough to make any real judgment on its use in UU, but the few times i have, it's taken at least one pokemon out and i don't have anything to really counter it. however, aside from weezing and steelix, which i don't use, i can't think of anything that can stop it without relying on revenge killing; even so, both weezing and steelix have to watch out for a possible fire blast. steelix is also weak to earthquake, obviously.

shedinja i faced once, and it died immediately to stealth rock; articuno and miltank i haven't seen at all.
 
Well, I have not used any of them, but faced some.

I encountered Miltank sometimes and it can be kinda hard to stop the Curser (I just hit her with strong, Choice Specs'd attacks from a bulky Pokemon that could handle Body Slam, Glaceon if you're wondering. It's difficult to find others, though)...
At least Fighting types make her life difficult, as does Encorers and subpunch Aggron (if no EQ, but if she has, she's A LOT vulnerable to status), for example. So because of that I think she is fine in UU for the time being.

Venusaur is ok too, annoying, but not overpowering. Some of his attacks can give free switch-ins for dangerous sweepers, so that should be taken in account. Clefable walls him too (as umbarsc said). Shame that no one will ever use Vileplume or even Meganium anymore :\

Weezing is fine (I don't particulary think we needed him but I'm not agaisnt it too). What worries me is him paired with Steelix. I'll wait more and see what happens, so I can comment more.

I have yet to lose to Aerodactyl, but I run Sandslash so my opinion may not count. It is a lot dangerous, but can be revenged kinda easily (priority, scarfers, bulky pokemon that can take a hit and kill him back i.e Poliwrath, Blastoise, Steelix... and viable counters in Gastodon, Quagsire or Claydol). Stealth Rock + Life Orb is a lot of residual damage.

As umbarsc, I've never faced either Shedinja or Articuno. I'm ok with Shedinja but Articuno worries me. It's NOT hard to spin away rocks and it can stall a lot. Too much defenses for UU (even lacking resists).
I'll stop here as I haven't had any experience with him, just watched a battle of someone using it (tanking Altaria's Draco Meteor for like 35% damage ._.)
 
I have never played a UU game, but I have seen some pokemon brought down that fair very well in OU battles.

After reading the last few pages, I realize that most of them were brought to to stop fighting types from running rampant in the tier.

Did the current fighting types just not cut? Honestly, I don't think it is smart to bring something that can fair pretty well in OU to UU.

I'm also confused, are you guys going by how much something is used? I doubt it, that'd be stupid. But is it really smart to bring something down from one tier, just because you want something stopped? Thus taking it out of the tier it deserves to be in?

Wouldn't that be like bringing Kyogre down to OU, just because it can stop Garchomp?
 
rego84 said:
I have never played a UU game, but I have seen some pokemon brought down that fair very well in OU battles.

After reading the last few pages, I realize that most of them were brought to to stop fighting types from running rampant in the tier.

Did the current fighting types just not cut? Honestly, I don't think it is smart to bring something that can fair pretty well in OU to UU.

I'm also confused, are you guys going by how much something is used? I doubt it, that'd be stupid. But is it really smart to bring something down from one tier, just because you want something stopped? Thus taking it out of the tier it deserves to be in?

Wouldn't that be like bringing Kyogre down to OU, just because it can stop Garchomp?
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I personally have a loathing for this mentality that many people have, that Pokemon should only be brought down to UU to counter certain other Pokemon. This is a bad way of thinking as it leaves the possibility of some otherwise acceptable UU Pokemon left in BL because they are deemed to be 'not needed', which means absolutely nothing by itself. If that was the only argument, then why would we 'need' to keep it banned? After all, we should be allowing the maximum possible number of Pokemon to make a balanced tier. It is only logical therefore that we should only attempt to balance the tier by banning Pokemon to BL, not the other way round.

Having said that, it is OK to test a few Pokemon from time to time, like we're doing now, but only under the assumption that they wouldn't unbalance the tier, nothing else. When I suggested that Weezing should be given a test in UU (flame me if you must, but I don't regret it), I did so because I could not see it being too unbalancing there, with such low speed, mediocre offenses and obviously exploitable special weakness in general. As far as I was concerned, its ability to wall Fighting types was a possible positive side effect, and not a major hindrance, to the tier. Look back through the thread all you want, but I assure you I never cited this as a 'reason' to bring it down.
 
The only problem imo has been Weezing from my experience. Aerodactyl just hasnt been a threat to my team and a threat in some battles I watched. Miltank and Venusaur actually are pretty easy to take care of and imo they both suffer from 4 ms syndrome. Venusaur really wants Leech Seed / Sleep Powder / Substitute / Sludge Bomb / HP Fire / Grass Knot all on the same set. Miltank is a great support pokemon but not that threatening. If anything I would just compare it a lot like clefable, bulky enough to be around for a while.

Shedinja and Articuno are not being used at all :/ SR is too common in UU and it makes them way to useless.
 
I've tried Articuno, and honestly it's really lackluster. Even though I haven't encoutered problems with Stealth Rock, its attacking power is really low and Heal Bell, which I believe to be one of its top assets, hasn't been useful. Toxic doesn't seem to solve the problem either. It's quite poor as a special wall too, considering that two of the top special attackers in UU, Ninetales and Manectric, beat it.
 
I don't see how UU is any different from OU. Soon there will be a UUU to make up for OU of UU.

Like I heard some say, with Venusaur coming to UU, Vileplume goes down the tubes. That's pretty similar to the whole OU-UU thing. I just don't see the point. If I played UU, I'd still see the same things over and over again.
 
Okay well unfortunately I am yet to battle(and can't for like a week >.<) so I can't say how these pokes are doing.

However, I want to comment on the whole Venusaur/Meganium/Vileplume situation. Guys, stop saying Venusaur is the end-all for the other two. Vileplume and Meganium can use Aromatherapy, which Venusaur can't. So basically, Vileplume can do more than Venusaur, but has worse stats. Meganium has Aromatherapy over Venusaur, but Venusaur has Sleep Power. The two have similar stats.

Basically, there is not one out of those three who is clearly the better one, they all have something the others can't brag about, be it stats or moves. Perhaps posting this wasn't necessary, but hearing that Vileplume no longer has any use was just really bugging me...
 
Raistmagic said:
I don't see how UU is any different from OU. Soon there will be a UUU to make up for OU of UU.

Like I heard some say, with Venusaur coming to UU, Vileplume goes down the tubes. That's pretty similar to the whole OU-UU thing. I just don't see the point. If I played UU, I'd still see the same things over and over again.
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So basically what you're saying is, like OU, UU contains a set of standard Pokemon that are used a lot more than others? Well duh! You're going to get that in every tier no matter what Pokemon are available. There will always be certain Pokemon that are generally more useful than the rest and would therefore be used more often, deal with it.

The only debate is whether UU is too centralized, but regardless of what happens the point you made will always be true, that's competitive Pokemon.

EDIT: Also, if I understand you correctly, the 'UUU' tier you brought up is already somewhat in construction. It is called NU.
 
Venusaur and Aerodactyl seem to be very broken to me. I made a team with those two and laddered for about 30 minutes, i ended up winning almost every time because of those two pokemon. Aero can pretty much clean up everything that UU brings us, though Venusaur I found to be a great "wall" with either a Bold or Clalm nature. Weezing hasn't been much trouble, but something like a Weezing-Clefable is goind to be VERY hard to beat, since they can't be poisoned and have recovery moves. Articuno is just plain aweful, no surprises there. But seriously, Aero and Venu or way to good for the UU environment. I havn't seen Miltank, but like i said in a previous post I think that cow is scary and really change this metagame...

edit: come to think of it i dont know of any real aero counter that can't take on a double-edge....
 
I've been laddering for the past few days, since their inclusion into UU and i've made a few teams to test each pokemon.

Articuno: As Sage said it's attacking power is really lackluster and i find myself hard pressed to even send it out to wall attacks with Stealth Rock everywhere. It does wall some Special Attackers well but those are in the minority as most Special sweepers do have some move that is hitting it for Super Effective damage.

Shedinja: Even worse than Articuno, simply due to the fact that even if Stealth Rock isn't up I still find it hard to send it since most sweepers can hit it for Super Effective damage and most walls pack some way to beat it wheter it be by an attack or Toxic. If Stealth Rock is up then your even more hard pressed to send it out.

Venusaur: I've found this annoying at times but no more annoying than Vileplume was. It's a bit more bulky so it takes alittle bit more effort to take out but generally the same pokemon that handled Vileplume handle Venusaur just fine.

Miltank: Most sets i've seen have been the "dreaded" Curser but in my experience with it, due to it's lack of resistances i've actually found it a bit harder to switch in than I would have originally thought. And being forced to use Scrappy on the Curse set takes away from its ability to take certain Special hits. I'm honestly more in favour of the supporter set than the actual sweeper.

Weezing: Weezing I haven't really had a problem with, WoW can be annoying at times but it's definitely not as bad as people are making it seem. Most of the time I actually find Weezing being used for set up bait for pokemon like Rapidash, Ninetales, Camerupt, Grumpig, Hypno, Lunatone....etc.

It's recovery is also unreliable for constant walling and when combined with the ever present Stealth Rock I find Weezing not being able to switch into some Physical Attackers as much as I would like. I even find myself losing to some Physical Attackers that one might not think Weezing should lose to like Hitmonlee and Leafeon simply because i cannot constantly rely on his recovery move.

Aerodactyl: Aerodactyl is a pest of sorts late game but i've found him easy enough to wall and residual damage from Life Orb and Stealth Rock as well as maybe switching in on resisted attacks really do add up. It has quite a few counters in Steelix, Sandslash, Blastoise, Gastrodon, Quagsire, Poliwrath, Claydol.....etc.

Most of the time when i see people complain for Aerodactyl it is because they run strictly offensive teams with little ways to switch around Aero. The more Defensive or "Balanced" teams i've seen have had few to little problems with Aerodactyl.
 
Okay, here's a couple things.

First off, Vileplume has Chlorophyll, which makes it more viable as a Sunny Day setup poke and semi-sweeper. Chalk one up for it. Meanwhile, Meganium has more physical defense and access to that ever-useful Aromatherapy. It also resists Earthquake rather than simply being neutral to it. Chalk a couple up for the dino.

In the end, Venusaur is just another bulky grass option. Each one has its benefits, and each one will fit into a team differently than the others. Quit being nay-sayers and accept that UU's getting more options for Bulky Grass-types.
 
Aerodactyl I have found very, very difficult to handle. It's just too fast, Double Edge screws up prospective counters, and it makes an offensive play style very hard to employ. The fact that they show up in almost every match makes them even more annoying.

Weezing has been similarly common and annoying. It combines too well with Steelix and just about puts a stop to every physical attacker in UU. Whilst individually Steelix and Weezing aren't too powerful, between them they are all but unbreakable with purely physical attackers.

Venusaur has been commonplace, and whilst it's been irritating, it has by no means been overly difficult to take on. As ryomou said, it's just like a slightly bulkier Vileplume, and if you're prepared for Vileplume then you won't have too many problems with Venusaur. Got caught out by a cool scarf set earlier :s

Miltank has very rarely posed any sort of threat to my team, despite having faced both support sets and Cursers. The lack of resistances make it much easier to take down, though it still invariably sticks around for a while.

Articuno has been decidedly underwhelming. Even without Stealth Rock up, it's very easy to wall and has plenty of weaknesses that can easily be preyed on. Faced quite a lot of these, and not once has it really posed a threat.

Shedinja I've only faced once, and was OHKO'd immediately. Haven't really seen it enough to make a proper judgement, but I'm not seeing Shedinja as being overpowered right now.
 
I have been playing UU for about a week, and I probably should not be making a judgment of some sort. Aerodactyl is pretty good to handle imo, Claydol is pretty awesome at it, so far, I haven't really had any problems with it, although I am aware that unprepared teams lose it without proper defense. The main reason I'm posting is Venusaur, I don't really see it fitting into UU, it's been annoying as hell facing it, as nothing can easlt take it down. I have never battled a Vileplum so again, I can't make a real judgement. Clefable set up rocks for me, so Shedinja is just lol. Weezing is pretty much handled by Cleafable, well for me atleast, so I don't havy any problems with it. Like I said, Venusaur is the reason why I'm posting, It just seems to strong for UU, it's pretty hard to take down. Again, don't take my post, you may thing I may be "overreacting", but that's the way I feel about it.
 
In the past few days, I've faced only Aero, Shedinja, and Weezing, surprisingly.

Lead Aerodactyls have been lol. I've faced two or three of them, and they always die quickly. They do get the Rocks up so I guess you can say mission accomplished, but that is the least of my worries when it comes to them.

Ones that appear mid-to-late game are the ones that have been trouble. You can say that about Swellow or any other fast sweeper though, so...

As for Shedinja, it was pretty much a non-threat to my team. I feel like it and Articuno are ones that just take too much support to be groundbreaking, unlike the others which can fit into teams much easier.

Weezing by itself has been not much of a problem, but I have to agree with the others that Weezing-Steelix-Clefable is a lot to handle. To be quite honest, amidst the hype surrounding Aerodactyl, it has been the threat of this trio that has forced me to restructure my team.
 
Posting this for quick reference.

Banished to BL
- Feraligatr, Typhlosion, Crobat, Azumarill, Ursaring, Slowking, Mamoswine, Ambipom, Pinsir


Borderline UU's: (Ones under careful observation)
- Kabutops, Clefable, Ninetales, Aerodactyl, Weezing, Miltank


BL's moved down to UU:
Claydol, Cloyster, Steelix, Drapion, Leafeon, Jynx, Miltank, Weezing, Aerodactyl, Shedinja, Articuno, Venusaur


BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
(presented in terms of levels of opposition)

- Marowak (High/Average)
- Tauros (High/Average)
- Regigigas (High/Average)

BL's suggested for testing/movedown before but were blocked.
- Empoleon, Houndoom (rejected twice),Flygon, Entei (rejected twice), Arcanine (rejected twice), Honchkrow, Torterra, Espeon, Exeggutor, Porygon2, Ludicolo (rejected twice)

Widely Acceptable BL/OU NFE's:
- Trapinch, Vigoroth, Scyther,

Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL):
Snover, Hippopatas
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I removed Leafeon and Scyther from the under careful observation list as there have no real complaints about either in quite some time.
 
I removed Leafeon and Scyther from the under careful observation list as there have no real complaints about either in quite some time.
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I'd remove Ninetales as well again if I were you as it was only put back on due to the fact that Hypno temporarily lost Wish, but that has been resolved now. Coupled with the introduction of Aerodactyl, Ninetales is easier to deal with than ever and doesn't deserve to be on that list.

I would personally remove Kabutops also, but I'm betting that would receive a lot of controversy so I'm OK with keeping it there for now. Zangoose should also be added to the recommendations list with High/Average opposition. Everything else looks fine to me.

Oh, one question: any progress on the proposed BL ladder?
 
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