I'm sorry you didn't fully understand what I was saying. It's my fault. Why should the NFE's of OU pokemon not be allowed to compete in the new UU; which is made up of BL pokemon?
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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
I'm sorry you didn't fully understand what I was saying. It's my fault. Why should the NFE's of OU pokemon not be allowed to compete in the new UU; which is made up of BL pokemon?
This is flawed logic. You are making the incorrect assumption that this new metagame should be directly compared to the current UU, whereas in fact they would effectively be two completely separate metagames. If you honestly believe that the likes of Crobat, Donphan, Espeon, Feraligatr etc (I could go on) should automatically be treated as 'suspects' in the new metagame then I can only assume that you haven't completely thought this through and therefore I have nothing to say to you.
I'm not making any assumption that this new metagame should be compared to the current UU. Yes, I do agree with you that those pokemon, Crobat, Donphan ... etc will not be treated the exact same way as suspects like Lati@s, Mew...etc for OU, it will be slightly different for them. However, more or less every BL pokemon that is added will be a suspect of some sort for that new metagame as we have no idea how much of them, if any at all actually might unbalance that metagame, thus all of them will still have to be treated as some sort of suspect.
Okay fair enough, but you can't blame me for misunderstanding you with the way you worded the part I quoted about Wobbuffet and Deoxys-E, as that clearly implies to me that you are suggesting we are going to have a 10+ page community vote on each of the 55 Pokemon. That is what I considered to be an absurd assumption.
On that note...
...sounds like yet another completely unfounded assumption to me. How do you know this? Your only attempt to back this up was to bring up the Wob/Deoxys issue, but needless to say I am not buying that at all.
If you were to ask me, I'd say that I cannot imagine any process more messy than the one we are currently using. But notice I am not trying to disguise my opinion as fact. I might well be completely wrong in my assumption, and I will be the first to hold my hand up and admit that should that be the case. However, the important point is that under such a process any (sizeable) ambiguity will eventually be resolved. ALL Pokemon will be given a chance, and all eventual BL Pokemon will have had clear justification for their banning.
There's just something I wanted to point out, which is that if all the BLs are dropped and we seek a balanced metagame from there, it is very possible that only 20% or even 10% of current day UUs will still be viable in this new tier.
Which leads me to ask again, how are we going to know that this is better than things are now?
This solution is definitely the best way to do it. Just imagine telling all current UU battlers that 55 new Pokemon are going to be dropped into their tier... I can imagine it would not work that well.
Which leads me to ask again, how are we going to know that this is better than things are now?
This solution is definitely the best way to do it. Just imagine telling all current UU battlers that 55 new Pokemon are going to be dropped into their tier... I can imagine it would not work that well.
Why should this matter? The new UU should not necessarily be defined by the standards of the current UU tier.
I agree with the seperate ladder idea though.
Agreed, which is why I just wanted to point it out, maybe for someone who wouldn't be able to stand see their Ninetales outcast into inferiority once again. ;_;
But you see what this does, right? If the majority of current day BLs are pushed into UU, then it's possible a lot of the current day UUs will become later day... NUs? Either way it's not making any more Pokemon viable, unless you want to create yet another tier to fit them all.
Lastly, just a scenario... say after all the dust settles, and we have a new UU tier that is workable, but say now is 'centralized' around 25-30 pokemon. What now?
Bear in mind that whilst the current UU's may be made less viable, current BL's that are dropped will become more viable (probably) so it should all balance out. If an excessive number of Pokemon are left in NU, in which a reasonably large number of Pokemon are rarely used, then in theory another tier would be a possibility, though I doubt it will be required.
If the UU tier becomes centralised around ~25 Pokemon, then I would guess some of them would be banned again. Simple. But we can't be sure that that will happen without testing.
it has to be seperate first, a seperate ladder would not harm UU, we don't know what effect a whole blanket move of BL would do to UU.
We should find that out with a BL/UU ladder for a few months to see the effects BL pokes are having on UU poke usage, then work with the UU ladder as is.
Also have community vote on Upper UU (steelix, aerodactyl, clefable etc) and anything that MIGHT move to UU, I can't help but see people wondering why aerodactyl and weezing are UU (usualy x pokemon is UU WTF) then not playing the tier anymore.
We should find that out with a BL/UU ladder for a few months to see the effects BL pokes are having on UU poke usage, then work with the UU ladder as is.
Also have community vote on Upper UU (steelix, aerodactyl, clefable etc) and anything that MIGHT move to UU, I can't help but see people wondering why aerodactyl and weezing are UU (usualy x pokemon is UU WTF) then not playing the tier anymore.
That part I know, yes.
Currently 75% of UU teams are comprised of 39 out of around 150 Pokemon... add 50 or so BLs and you've got a large number.
So I'd say it's required, yes, though I doubt a new tier will be made. Oh well, poor Beautifly and Wormadam may just have to wait a little longer...
And lastly, good. That's all I wanted to make sure of, hopefully the majority of people here will agree. :)
Short answer: BL is not intended to be a tier, nor would it work as a tier, nor should it be made into a tier. Although the line between BL being a tier or not is quite hazy as they can generally compete well in OU. Take Marowak for example. Put up a Trick Room and that's actually all you need.
Long answer: Because BL is not intended to be a balanced tier. Even its acronym BL, can be interpreted as meaning ''banlist'' which is precisely what it is; a banlist for UU. They can generally be included in the OU tier because they are not as far from OU as UU is. And besides, I doubt a lot of people would play BL, nor would it imo make for a very interesting tier at all, because the actual BLs in BL (ie. not UUs that are stuck in BL) would overpower the rest of the tier, and the tier would quickly centralize upon these options as there are little alternatives. Remember that BL was created to serve as a banlist for UU, and this means that UU pokes are not intended to compete with BL pokes.
Firstly, there are 55 BL Pokemon, so even if the tier did centralize arond these options there is still the possibility of less centralization than UU's pool of 39 Pokemon. Secondly, what evidence do you have to back up your claims? How could you know for sure that there would be no UU Pokemon that see common use?
Here is a list that Age of Kings compiled a while back based on first-hand experience playing BL unofficially:
To be honest with you, most of those wouldn't surprise me at all. Are you suggesting that she is wrong here on all accounts?
So by that logic, I could say that Tentacruel was initially UU and therefore was never 'intended' to compete with OU pokes. Have you ever heard of the term 'niche'?
You can't look at the pool of Pokes. You have to look at the average power level. The wider the gap in the tier, the more centralization there will be. For the sake of example, this is why you see Garchomp in nearly every team; the power gap is wider between it and most of the rest of the tier, leading to centralization. Trick Room Rhyperior with/without Swords Dance and Muscle Band, Medicham with Choice Scarf etc., these will all be problems leading to centralization.
And you defeated your own argument there. A while back means that it's obsolete, since the game changes from time to time. I haven't seen a Muk since I don't know how long, but the rest are seen on a varying frequency from very common to included for the sake of technical truth (ie. not practical).
She's not wrong at all accounts, but she's not really right either.
And oh please, don't try the get-out-of-jail freecard that is using ''by that logic'' in your arguments. Of course there will be niches, there always are because Pokemon is so varied. You can't say that something is useless because it will have a niche, as you just said. I'm not saying that UU's will not have a chance in BL, but they are in general supposed to be more powerful than UU Pokes.
So, what I think would be ideal is using some common sense and picking out stuff that will obviously be overpowered in UU (Rhyperior etc.) and put down the rest, then do some research into how balanced it turned out, and remove the imbalanced elements. Trick Room Marowak can be countered with Lagging Tail for example, but stuff that is quite simply too good for UU (once again, Rhyperior) should not be put down for research.
But really, instead of all this arguing, why is there no action? Isn't there anyone responsible for handling these sorts of things?
And you defeated your own argument there. A while back means that it's obsolete, since the game changes from time to time. I haven't seen a Muk since I don't know how long, but the rest are seen on a varying frequency from very common to included for the sake of technical truth (ie. not practical).
She's not wrong at all accounts, but she's not really right either.
And oh please, don't try the get-out-of-jail freecard that is using ''by that logic'' in your arguments. Of course there will be niches, there always are because Pokemon is so varied. You can't say that something is useless because it will have a niche, as you just said. I'm not saying that UU's will not have a chance in BL, but they are in general supposed to be more powerful than UU Pokes.
So, what I think would be ideal is using some common sense and picking out stuff that will obviously be overpowered in UU (Rhyperior etc.) and put down the rest, then do some research into how balanced it turned out, and remove the imbalanced elements. Trick Room Marowak can be countered with Lagging Tail for example, but stuff that is quite simply too good for UU (once again, Rhyperior) should not be put down for research.
But really, instead of all this arguing, why is there no action? Isn't there anyone responsible for handling these sorts of things?
Well that was an intentionally bad argument to show just how equally bad yours was in comparison. The point I want to make is that none of us should be making any derogatory arguments against the BL metagame, because in almost every case they are merely opinions derived from baseless theorymon.
Let me take one of your arguments to illustrate the point:
This is the exact same bad argument you just formulated except I replaced two parts of the sentence with my own unfounded opinion. Both are equally meaningless statements. The only difference is that I believe my opinion (and everyone else's) on this matter currently has no merit whatsoever, whereas you seem to think yours does (why would you post it otherwise?)
So ironically, you could say that I am arguing against arguing right now.
I'm sure something will happen sooner or later. I suggest we just wait patiently and keep discussion to the current UU for now.
I think that the BL tier should be split. We should test each Pokémon, and those proven to be too strong for UU should be sent to OU. Those that are able to perform in UU without upsetting the balance of the metagame should be allowed to stay. Similarly, I believe that the new UU tier, after the inclusion of BLs, should be split again. Those too weak to compete in UU should be relocated to the NU Tier. In other words, I believe that we should just get rid of the BL tier and redistribute the current BLs to OU and UU.
There is no doubt (as far as I know) that the BL tier must remain. We cannot simply send Pokemon that are overpowered in UU to OU, as they are not by definition 'overused'. The fact is that, whilst we want to minimise the number of Pokemon in the BL tier, it is still necessary to balance UU whilst keeping only the 'overused' Pokemon in 'OU'.
Because as fast and strong as it is, it can still be stopped without too much trouble in UU. The new walls, steelix, electrode, the high amount of priority moves, and Aero's frailty all come together to keep it from being overly powerful.
thanx for explaining it to me :p
Actually, you could just send only those Pokémon too weak to compete in standard play, similarly to how Aerodactyl, Miltank, Weezing, etc. were recently demoted. Not all the BLs are strong enough to compete in OU. I agree with you that the majority of BLs are better suited in OU than UU, but there are still some BLs that would fit comfortably into UU. The only reason I'm proposing this is because many BLs are hardly used in OU play. I've played OU a good deal, and I've only seen Feraligatr once during that time. And that was because I was using it. I can name at least ten more that are rarely or never used in standard battles. The only other option I can think of is to create a BL ladder. However, this probably would not work either because BL was not meant to be a tier, just a list of those too strong to be UU, but too uncommon to be OU. Therefore BL could end up just as centralized as UU, or even worse.
By definition, all BLs are hardly used in OU play. If they were used more, they wouldn't be BL, they would be OU.
I find it somewhat odd that UU's ban tier (BL) is larger than its list of used Pokemon (the "OU" of UU).
Indeed. I hope that people can go into the "BL ladder" with no pre conceived notions of what it should be without actual practice. There is no need for complaining (regarding the NFE's issue) because they have a choice as to whether or not they want to play.
I have a question: will this BL ladder be temporary for testing purposes, or will it be a permanent fixture? It'd be a shame if it were just temporary, especially considering that even ubers has a ladder...