DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[Forsety]

But even Claydol cannot avoid a possible 2HKO if the opponent decides to be Reckless, which is legal with Double-edge as Tyrogue gets it via Emerald Tutor. Of course there are downsides to this, such as sacrificing para-immunity and the huge recoil, but if it allows Hitmonlee to 2HKO the only decent counter it has, people may well be tempted to try it.

Let me put it another way. If Hitmonlee is forced to run a dangerous counter like that. Than I think Claydol has already done its job in countering Hitmonlee. It makes it even more vulnerable to priority attacks on its weak defense and prone to massive ammounts of recoil damage.

On Gligar:
One thing actually impacts the whole OU-lite Gligar issue. That would be the stat distribution, Gligar to Gliscor gained 10 in each stat but got +20 base in defense. Now Gliscor's main use tends to be for defense but -20 defense opposed to -10 in the other stats changes Gligar's distribution significantly. In fact all the other stats Gliscor gained in only just pushed them into average or above average. Gligar remains subpar in most areas. I do think this actually changes Gligar's use abit.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Perhaps we might open UU to NFE's in general (bar the auto-weather pokemon) and see if OU-lite is a real phenomenon.

Even if some NFE's may run similar sets to their OU counterparts, in most cases stat differences make them inferior to the top tier of UU, and so at least in team building, evaluation of NFE's and their abilities in relation to the UU metagame would be different from evaluation conducted of their final forms in the OU metagame.

My suggestion is that we open UU to NFE's and see how they catch on. We can always ban them later when they overcentralize. I also agree with Lee that it is easier to list the NFE's that are banned then the ones are are not, and makes for a more diverse metagame.

I've personally always felt that NFE's did bring some exciting novelty to the UU metagame because they were generally so infrequently used in Adv (although whether or not that was because they were banned then I am not sure).

 

[Bourbon]

Yeah, I mean Tangela and Gligar could really lift some weight off of our wall's shoulders. It's sad that the first time they are available to me that I won't get to try them. (I had emerald for ages)

I say that the NFEs that got new evolutions should still be allowed. They've been UU forever... you could say OU has become UU heavy if you think about it. I'm pretty sure they won't ruin the metagame...

BTW, by NFEs I don't mean kadabra and metang... those things are OU lite...

Heres a list of things I've seen on Shoddy that seem to be "OU-Lite"

-Chansey
-Yanma
-Kadabra
-Haunter
-Machoke
-NFE starters
-


Now here is some UU that I think are unique or needed as NFEs

-Tangela
-Gligar
-Electabuzz (its primarily special, its faster and has a diff ability)
-Pikachu (ugh)
-Sneasel
-

 

[ODDish]

I say that the NFEs that got new evolutions should still be allowed. They've been UU forever...

Heres a list of things I've seen on Shoddy that seem to be "OU-Lite"
-Yanma

Erm isn't that contradicting your own argument ... yanma has certainly been UU as long as gligar or sneasel.

Now here is some UU that I think are unique or needed as NFEs
-Tangela
-Electabuzz (its primarily special, its faster and has a diff ability)
-Pikachu (ugh)
-Sneasel

Electabuzz and Pikachu are both already listed as being widely accepted NFE's.

Tangela and Sneasel are unique/needed because ... ?

 

[Darkflagrance]

Why should we err towards removing pokemon from the metagame rather than adding them? They are unique with regards to the UU metagame. They don't over-centralize.

 

[Bourbon]

Erm isn't that contradicting your own argument ... yanma has certainly been UU as long as gligar or sneasel.



Electabuzz and Pikachu are both already listed as being widely accepted NFE's.

Tangela and Sneasel are unique/needed because ... ?

Yeah ooops sorry, that guy is in the wrong list : /

Anyways, Tangela is a really good wall, and it's different from Tangrowth because it's forced to use special attacks. Gligar is just a nice wall, and even though all gliscors stats are higher, Gligars stats are speedier, but less bulky . It'd make a neat 'Lee counter and it can baton pass boosts.

Sneasel, I kinda feel bad for it, because it went from having Return and Shadow Ball to some useable STAB moves... it wouldn't overcentralize the game, and its kinda cuter than Weavile : 3

 

[ODDish]

Why should we err towards removing pokemon from the metagame rather than adding them?

When there are already 143 pokemon listed as UU, and a fairly significant number of these only see limited use, why should we add 150 or so more, particularly, when as you said in your previous post "in most cases stat differences make them inferior to the top tier of UU"?

They are unique with regards to the UU metagame.

How so? They are not currently prohibited in either Ubers or OU, people simply don't wish to use them.

Skiddle
Anyways, Tangela is a really good wall ... Gligar is just a nice wall .. Sneasel... it wouldn't overcentralize the game, and its kinda cuter than Weavile

Tangela maybe, Gligar I'm still not sure that its unique enough from Gliscor but possibly, Sneasel I'm afraid you've failed to convince me.

Of course its not my decision so we'll have to wait and see either way ...

 

[Forsety]

Sorry no. Sneasel is a OU-lite period. It only has one role and nothing else.

I'm more mixed on Gligar than Tangela overall. Tangela does have 10 base speed more in exchange for 10 less special attack. But overall it has the exact same role as its evolution on a lesser scale and without the physical offense option. In the end theres only two things you can do due to how its stats are. Defensive support or Sunnybeam both perfectly feasible in OU.

Gligar however besides having significantly lower stats has several options ranging from offense/defensive support to BP. But usually only one is feasible due to Gliscors stat distribution and OU environment forcing it. UU environment being different and Gligar's skewed spread means its defense is only good as long it resists making it a specialized wall. Bit different from Gliscor who is a plain do all wall and rarely if ever will go on a offense. (Older UU players will know Gligar almost always went sweeper)

 

[Fishin]

Anyways, Tangela is a really good wall, and it's different from Tangrowth because it's forced to use special attacks. Gligar is just a nice wall, and even though all gliscors stats are higher, Gligars stats are speedier, but less bulky . It'd make a neat 'Lee counter and it can baton pass boosts.

Tangela does indeed have a distinct difference from Tangrowth in the pattern of it's stat distribution in addition to the higher speed. Gligar on the other hand really doesn't - it's just Gliscor, but with 20 lower attack/def and 10 lower everything else. Same for Sneasel (not in the exact stats but in the fact that it's basically the same as Weavile).

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

Sneasel is actually distinct from Weavile in that Sneasel has the Ability Inner Focus or Keen Eye and Weavile has Pressure.

In the metagame we're talking about (UU Singles), this doesn't matter all that much. But in Doubles, Inner Focus leads are worth their weight in gold. If Weavile could still have Inner Focus, it'd be a force to be reckoned with in Doubles.

 

[ODDish]

Going slightly off the topic of NFE's for the moment ...

A number of UU battlers on Shoddy just asked me whether Jynx had been considered for UU testing?

I've been led to believe that she once ruled the UU metagame, but like many tyrants power became her downfall, and she was banished to BL limbo. Is it still the case that she is too powerful or has UU developed enough to welcome her back (at least for testing)?

Thoughts?

 

[Colonel M]

We need to discuss NFEs in general again in a seperate topic. Only this time, there should be some good ground rules to the topic, such as none of the OU-lite. In other words, they MUST have something that somewhat different, whether movepool, typing, ability, or strategy as the differences.

As much as I'd like to argue about auto-weather in UU, even if it was Hail, it would be shunned down in general.

Anyways, I can agree that Sneasel has no "true" differences to Weavile. The only thing that I thought was noteworthy is the loss of Night Slash... and usually Weavile uses Pursuit anyways.

[EDIT] Saw Jynx.

Someone discussed that it was almost impossible to counter Substitute / Lovely Kiss / Ice Beam / Calm Mind Jynx. Not that she has good physical defenses, but she has sub-par speed and STAB Ice Beam and that still is threatening. 115 Special Attack, however, is still 115 Special Attack. It can Wish, be decent for Perish Song, and still gets a mess of special moves.

Testing wouldn't be so much of a bad thing though, but I think in the end she'll remain BL.

 

[sanjay120]

I really think Jynx would end up BL but test her if you want. She reminds me of Roserade somewhat. I want to Scarf her for the fast sleep and good special movepool. Or Specs her with the decent Spd sleep and more power. Some support options without the defenses to abuse them too much, though she can still take a hit. It's like they're twins. ;O

Oh, and Luna is good as always.

 

[Darkflagrance]

When there are already 143 pokemon listed as UU, and a fairly significant number of these only see limited use, why should we add 150 or so more, particularly, when as you said in your previous post "in most cases stat differences make them inferior to the top tier of UU"?

My position is that fundamentally UU is about having a diverse metagame away from the Garchomps and Blisseys of OU play. I feel that because the whole point of UU is to get away from the standard centralization of OU to a point where more pokemon are viable, we should therefore try to be as unrestrictive as possible with regards to the UU metagame.

My response to your questio is simply, why not? It would matter to me, who has some plans for experimental teams, even if it doesn't to you.

How so? They are not currently prohibited in either Ubers or OU, people simply don't wish to use them.

Last night, I saw Obi use a Magnemite to stomp several opponents on Shoddy. It OHKO'd a Skarmory at one point (there are people using them, and in competitive settings, no less, haha). There are people using NFE's. Furthermore, I don't see why it matters so strongly to you to ban NFE's if no one uses them. I myself have been planning some experimental teams involving UU's (perhaps ironically, a wish/protect shelgon, among others) but I don't want to test until I get a better sense of the legality of UU's.

Perhaps the reason why people prefer to use fully evolved pokemon in OU is because the mentality of the OU metagame is generally different from that of the UU metagame. I have the sense that the UU metagame is more about fun whereas the OU metagame is about dominance. Thus, it makes sense that the OU metagame would see less use of NFE's. Many NFE's aren't competitive against Garchomp for the same reason that Magcargo or Altaria might not be.

There might actually be a reason to use NFE's in UU.

The reason that people may not use NFE's in UU may have more to do with Smogon's current limbo/disapproval of NFE's than any other reason.

Of course its not my decision so we'll have to wait and see either way ...

 

[ODDish]

We need to discuss NFEs in general again in a seperate topic

Agreed , perhaps Darkflagrance would like to start one?

Someone discussed that it was almost impossible to counter Substitute / Lovely Kiss / Ice Beam / Calm Mind Jynx.

Oh I don't know about that ... surprisingly Lopunny immediately sprang to mind, (never thought I'd be listing her as a potential counter to anything), Banette looks like it might work reasonably well too, and I'm sure there's other stuff ... it's early so my brains not in gear yet.

 

[Lou Cypher]

Why is there still barely no response on Gardevoir for UU? I'd say she's easier to counter as Junx...

 

[ODDish]

Why is there still barely no response on Gardevoir for UU?

The lack of response would suggest that people either missed your initial post support or that there is a lack of interest in/support for testing her ... personally I'd hope it was the former. My own excuse I usually read this thread whilst on Shoddy so I quite often overlook things ... sorry. I'll have to go away and do a bit of research on Gardevior, before I can offer any informed response.

I'd say she's easier to counter as Junx...

Hmm ... debatable. Looking purely at stat distribution and weaknesses Gardy would appear to be in a much better position than Luna.

Base Stats
Jynx HP 65 Att 50 Def 35 (eww) SpA 115 SpD 95 Spd 95 (455)
Gardevoir HP 68 Att 65 Def 65 SpA 125 SpD 115 Spd 80 (518)

Weakness
Jynx Fire, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Dark, Steel (6)
Gardevoir Bug, Ghost, Dark (3)

 

[Lou Cypher]

As much truth as the DEF argument holds, Junx has several things going for it:

- Higher speed (VERY important in this case, Gardevoir just doesn't cut it)
- More accurate sleep move (Combined with the higher speed...)
- STAB on a better type (Ice > Psychic anyday, not that there are THAT many Steels and Darks in UU)

While it is true that Junx is more predictable as Gardevoir would be, Gardevoir tends to not getting in the Calm Minds as easily as Junx does, due to earlier mentionned sleep move and speed.

All these pokes outspeed Gardevoir yet fall to Junx's speed in UU (Not counting speed ties):

Skuntank (Dangerous)
Toxicroak (Can't switch in but is dangerous specially with Sucker Punch)
Ledian
Volbeat
Pinsir (!!!!!)
Girafarig
Stantler
Nidoking (Same as Toxicroak)
Qwuilfish
Illumise
Golduck
Cherrim
Hitmonlee (Can switch in more comfortably due to its Sp DEF)
Furret
Kangaskhan (Talk about a poke Gardy does NOT want to face)
Pikachu (Can't switch in but physical varietys make Gardy cringe)
Mr. Mime
Venomoth
Chatot
Pidgeot
Lumineon
Rotom (Highly dangerous)

And then there's a group of 95's that are dangerous to Gardevoir but Junx can hack out (Sharpedo!!!). Due to this, Gardevoir will have to be more wary of more pokes in that speed catagory as Junx would, who can outspeed, put to sleep, sub and CM up.

 

[Lee]

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to say "X Pokemon" is impossible to counter in UU. I mean, I got into the top 100 on Shoddy with a pure UU team of Hitmonlee/Blastoise/Muk/Golem/Rotom/Sharpedo and in all honesty, the only Pokemon I genuinelly struggled to counter was ScarfChomp, so it's ridiculous for me to say "No, Jynx and Gardevoir cannot be countered in UU," because they can.

Luna is a damn sight less effective this generation, partially due to Pursuit (any decent power Pursuit will kill her regardless of switch) and perhaps even moreso due to U-Turn. U-Turn will break her Sub/kill her, and provided the U-Turner is slower will allow a faster Pokemon like Scyther to get in for the revenge kill (read: Pursuit).

However, I'd have to say Gardevoir is too good, and the more I think about it, the more I think it's a bad suggestion (no offence intended). You're looking at above average speed, godly SpA and a wide offensive movepool consisting of Psychic, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Hidden Power, Focus Blast, Energy Ball etc etc. Then I think some more and it becomes apparent that the support Gardevoir is even better. 115 Sp Def, and some of the most gamebreaking moves around in the form of Hypnosis, Will-o-Wisp, Calm Mind, Taunt and a dozen other awesome support options.

Then you throw in one of the most incredible abilities in the game in Trace, which completely shuts down many common UU's like Ninetales, Poliwrath, Hitmontop, Lapras etc etc.

It's a huge no from me for Gardevoir. I'm open to Jynx testing though.

 

[Forsety]

Big no for Jynx. This thing was equivilent to absolute carnage in the Advance metagame. It came in very easily on special attacks, fired off a Lovely Kiss than a CM and everything dropped. Even now a Sleep + STAB Psychic/Ice combination off 115 s.atk mauls a good part of D/P.

 

[Gmax]

OK, why is Jynx even up for debate? Didn't any of you face Luna in ADV? It can get in an LK+ a Sub, and then just IB the opponent if it can't set up on it. IB from that kind of SAtk will hurt. It can cause even more pain than usual because it will be facing watered down opponents. Even worse is the fact that it can Trap+Kiss+Tears+IB. The only way to beat that is by being faster/haxing it. It could also just use Perish Song.

 

[ODDish]

I'm leery of overlooking things based on past glories ...ADV was ADV, D/P is D/P ... a lot of pokemon have improved whilst Jynx has essentially remained the same. We've already tested stuff that has, on paper, no obvious counters, so I really don't see what harm testing would do.

 

[Gmax]

I'm leery of overlooking things based on past glories ...ADV was ADV, D/P is D/P ... a lot of pokemon have improved whilst Jynx has essentially remained the same. We've already tested stuff that has, on paper, no obvious counters, so I really don't see what harm testing would do.

Sounds cool. BTW, about all this 'testing', just when will it be happening?

 

[ODDish]

Sounds cool. BTW, about all this 'testing', just when will it be happening?

There is nothing official as such...

A while back I met up with Dragontamer on Shoddy to do a bit, but for the most part I imagine that the people who post here will just do it as part of their battling on Shoddy or Wi-fi.

If someone wants to try and organise something more formal then great ... if not we can just carry on like this, we have to get any proposed changes approved anyway.

 

[Alienjesus]

if we culd go through the list and identify everything that could use some testing, i'll try and come up with a tourney idea that helps make use of those pokemon.


obviously, this may take time because of discussion though.