• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

NOC Dragon Ball Z NOC - Day 4

Status
Not open for further replies.
acidphoenix said:
hey this time not posting was because i actually didn't check the thread until BT tagged me, and i first saw that yesterday at 11pmish

anyway i read through the thread so

vegeta claiming: no matter when vegeta claims, as long as it's before lylo it will do exactly the same thing- force either a clear or a 50/50, basically the only question of whether we'd rather have vegeta as a possible target for kills or not- so basically whether we'd rather have a chance to get one of the 6 possible scum targets, or have the 7 possible town be perfectly safe, buu is the same except without the disadvantage of leaving unclaimed and really shouldn't claim rn

cleans only matter if the person cleaned would have likely been lynched otherwise

any sort of coordination while the transporter lives is dumb

wtf was jalmont's post there

i support "don't claim when lynched unless you have info or are an unused reviver,"

lw vs us: both of them don't seem to have any particular reason to push the idea besides believing it's best,

vegeta and buu claiming as pr would be silly enough originally, completely pointless after publicly suggesting it, and sam agreeing with it just makes him look silly and suspicious

asek randfillering before the latest post is weird but meh

us has been v desperate to have a vegeta claim and has decided that his play should be whatever makes it most obvious that it is the most important thing in the world

mrthao aka king has been being fillery but i don't know how much of that i can attribute to scum and how much of it is him just being stupid

as a whole so far i find jalmont, unclesam, asek, tik, king_ slightly more likely than others to be scum(not too different but overall most to least likely)
Click to expand...
There's not 'six possible scum targets', there's 3. Two of them are nightkillable and the Androids only send one person to kill (I presume? jumpluff pls confirm). And there's eight village targeting roles, not seven.

Cleans are meaningless yes, but we are on a timer. If we let the mafia waste our claims we never get cleans in the lategame, and the cleans which matter are the unkillables (BPV and Vegeta) because those are the strong late-game roles. If we let the mafia waste three of our claims then we never get those cleans ever. That is the reason it is important to claim sooner rather than later (and in Vegeta's case due to the chances of killing villagers, today).

Both claiming PR is 100% better than claiming their individual roles, because then the mafia don't know which one is the BPV (who could thus theoretically be killed) and which one is Vegeta. It is 100% better if they are both claiming.

So no, nothing I've said was silly.
 
Androids want vegeta out so they don't die to him and they don't care whether RB or protection idles, Broly doesn't care about vegeta cause he doesn't die and wants him out so there are better targets.

What UncleSam is saying here about 3rd party motivation is very onviously false, a third party wants vegeta claiming every time.
 
My understanding of the Androids is they each submit a kill but cannot OC talk which is why looking for LightWolf signalling to his partner who he will kill is important. IF they submit different kill targets (LW kills billy but Sam kills me) the kill fails. Once one dies, the other takes over killing. Which is why I can see Sam v LW trying to get each other lynched so the one can win without the other bogging them down with their usual squabbles and conflicts and such.

However I would like to draw some attention to King. Let me do his ISO

King_ 6, #37 #38 response to US about vegeta claim, #63 votes TIK for voting US who is "trying to figure out the game," #110 wants an invite to sam and mine's wedding, #113 thinks vegeta should claim, #164 asks if my post counts as a claim?? (still want to know what the thinks I was claiming).

That is six posts, all of which are in response to Sam or me or something we said (such as #113 where he reiterates Vegeta should claim aka Sam's stance despite many people moving away from that POV).

I still want to know what he thinks I was claiming. I asked (and jumpluff said claim counter of 0) and he never replied.

So, King_, what do you think claim was in my post?
Do you intend to respond to anyone besides Sam or myself?
How clean do you find Sam now?

I feel like this guy is trying to buddy to Sam and I and hope that one or both of us find him agreeable and protect him from being lynched for his scummy behavior. Maybe he is actually android/mafia partners with Sam and thus buddying him super hard. He certainly isn't my partner since I'm town (but he could be town trying to latch onto loud personalities he's reading as town). Or he could be mafia trying to do the same thing so we don't tear his scummy mess to shreds.

Explain yourself.
 
UncleSam said:
There's not 'six possible scum targets', there's 3. Two of them are nightkillable and the Androids only send one person to kill (I presume? jumpluff pls confirm). And there's eight village targeting roles, not seven.

Cleans are meaningless yes, but we are on a timer. If we let the mafia waste our claims we never get cleans in the lategame, and the cleans which matter are the unkillables (BPV and Vegeta) because those are the strong late-game roles. If we let the mafia waste three of our claims then we never get those cleans ever. That is the reason it is important to claim sooner rather than later (and in Vegeta's case due to the chances of killing villagers, today).

Both claiming PR is 100% better than claiming their individual roles, because then the mafia don't know which one is the BPV (who could thus theoretically be killed) and which one is Vegeta. It is 100% better if they are both claiming.

So no, nothing I've said was silly.
Click to expand...
a. there are actually 5, i miscounted(probably forgot broly was bp), both androids have to target if they want to be able to kill, and i didn't count goku because them shooting vegeta isn't any worse than them shooting a different townie so he's not a relevant point

b. and that's exactly why the policy of "don't claim unless you have important info/are reviver/possibly are vegeta/bp"

c. i concede this point although i still am 100% opposed to a buu claim
other things:

lw's WILD MAGICAL SHIFT RIDE is indeed weird although what would the capitalized letters actually mean
 
ahahahahahahahahahahaha

pleaSe consider my sam vote now serioUs and my aCtual views, this is hilarious!!!! you are literally calling my fucking fucKing random capITalisations into queStion when I told everyone in the threAd I was typing it on a fucking phone, god I soMetimes made (you look) that thing copypaste the word God over and over, it took me ages to remove it from the paragraph. Also fun fact, you accusing me of pushing hidden vegeta, while accusing me of Twin signaling? You do realise Twins are hurt THE MOST of any faction by a hidden Vegeta?

Sam just stop arguing for Vegeta claiming, YOU ARE WRONG, and you kept ignoring every single thing anyone posted what the benefits are to keeping vegeta hidden, and how little there is to gain from revealing him early. But the way you are grasping at straws just to push a lynch onto me is hilarious.

Since we are starting actual lynches now, let me do the US thing and make big bold letters.

We must decide how to handle claims, HERE AND NOW!!!

Pretty straight forward, if we ALLOW ANYTHING to be claimed at all in reaction to being lynched there will only be one result, mafia will claim that, and force said role to counter claim, said role for which we made the exception because they are important, which is counter productive. I still say, you can only claim if you are A. info role with proof someone is bad, BUT MUST CLAIM as soon as possible during the day and not just when lynched, or B. You are Vegeta being lynched. Again if you are a villager you have no reason to actually be afraid of being lynched if you are fucking playing to win and not just ignoring the game or halfassing it.

I will not accept anything else, simply because any other rule helps the mafia take us down with them on EVERY successful lynch. So here and now, I want everyone to either agree to these terms and that anyone violating this will be lynched no CCing necessary, or deny these terms but better have a fucking good reason to. We can't proceed without this, because people will just claim they didn't agree to this or they didn't know etc, this needs to be set in STONE.
 
I agree with LW and also add that an info role can treat a lot of noncell clears late in the game as one bad and come out at a similar time.

Discussing twin signaling prekill is as garbage as it gets.
 
Also I have to say while I can see the pro-town logic in Vegeta claiming if you assume he could be a risk for any of the other town PRs to suicide on (barring Bulma and King Kai and Buu but he doesn't have a role) there was absolutely NO pro-town motive behind suggesting Buu claims.

BPV is MEANT to remain hidden and absorb a mafia kill. If Buu plays super towny and absorbs a kill from scum, thus wasting a night essentially by not lowering the village numbers any, that is super good for us. There was absolutely NO reason to suggest Buu come forward except for the mafia/neuts to learn him and thus who to not waste their kill on. Leaving him alive until LYLO or whatever is pointless because the scums will simply choose him to lynch off and keep killing any-villager-but-him when they know he cannot do anything to protect those villagers.

Considering Sam himself is notorious for D1 mislynching and generally disliking the witch hunt nature of early NOC talk I find it extremely suspicious he wants Buu to claim to be a "cleaned voice of reason" for the town. I can give him a pass on Vegeta but Buu? Sam, no. So what if they cannot be nightkilled? That is the point. Buu is SUPPOSED to try and be nightkilled and waste a mafia kill to buy the village some more time. Having him claim it is stupid.

The only team advantaged by Buu claiming (well teams I suppose) are the mafia/neuts who now know who to avoid to get a free kill off. They have no reason to ever waste their shots hitting a BPV. They can just track down the rest of the PRs like watcher/tracker/cop amidst the villagers (the mafia especially since they know 4 of their own then 2 unkillable town of Vegeta/Buu).

These LightWolf posts are some serious serial killer bs lmao. However LW wrongly attributes calling his serial killer android hinting into question to Sam, not me, when I was the one to originally point it out. That being said it is true Sam will take any and every opportunity he gets to demerit LW and his opinions.
 
Also you really are hanged up on capitalised letters, the most obvious things I have done, and not my constant need to capitalize certain words or sentences, where I could far more easily hide shit? (I mean it's mostly just that I do tldrs and I want certain parts to catch the eyes of people who just skim, though yes I'm generally off on what words you actually put the emphasis on when spoken)
 
Blazade said:
I agree with LW and also add that an info role can treat a lot of noncell clears late in the game as one bad and come out at a similar time.

Discussing twin signaling prekill is as garbage as it gets.
Click to expand...
Well while I did previously say this, I should have put it into the post, but it's just really for the early game, there are way too many ifs that change as certain roles die, certainly too many to encompass into a simple to understand format we need to agree on sooner rather than later. Either way we can easily add additional claim allowances to these two as days pass by.
 
I'm good with pushing sam to claim.

I'm not really sure what to do with claims. I don't really want to get bogged into meta discussions. I think forcing the mafia to think on their feet rather than being able to point to meta justification here works in our favour a little better.
 
I agree with lw although I also think that reviver who hasn't revived yet is another good exception since they can be cleared easily from it even with a cc and having another townie is v value
 
billymills said:
Unvote

Vote Unclesam

I thought you were just making really bad decisions going through meta, but why are you trying differentiate between Android and Mafia play? I think the only team that is focused on the Androids is the mafia, to try and concentrate kills one way in particular. I'm more concerned about you saying 'kill billymills tonight' than lightwolf playing around with auto-correct.

I'd remind everyone the point of this game is primarily to find mafia. Unclesam has been continuously diluting this process with meta talk, trolling with yeti, and ridiculous complaints against Lightwolf.

Androids are not going to give themselves away early. Focus on interactions between two players, focus on strange interactions, quick opinion changes and so forth. Don't expect killers to just out themselves.
Click to expand...
No I'm making pro-town decisions going through meta, you're just not thinking through this properly (or aren't village) if you think otherwise.

I'm pointing out that LW is playing exactly like he would as an android. Why the fuck wouldn't I? There's differences in play between what I'd expect from each one, so of course I'm going to bring that up. Why would the mafia try to focus on the Androids more than the village, what?

I was pointing out a time when LW signalled to kill billymills. Obviously this means that you're more likely to be BG'd if people buy it as real, and if they don't either way LW is too paranoid to send it in in any case now that I've called him out on it. You're welcome.

I'm not going to waste time purely doing bullshit psychoanalysis devoid of links to roles (which I've stated many times is just stupid) rather than worrying about how to use our roles to the best of our abilities and why people's motivations or contributions are anti-town or stated from a mafia perspective, which is the entire point of a game like this and is not 'diluting' anything. Wasting time doing random NOC bullshit and ignoring the differences this game has is diluting discussion.

mills is playing terrible, DLE is iDLE, LW is playing terribly, and Yeti is starting to play a lot better. Guess I'll give what I think of each person now:
- acidphoenix: Made one pretty awful post, but he is engaging with arguments, has his own opinions, and seems to be legitimately trying to let people know what his reads are. Definitely reading him as town so far.
- Asek: I'm leaning that he still made a pretty bad scumslip, but I've misread newer players making questionable posts before. I'd rather let this one shake out. Lean mafia.
- billymills: Is playing so terribly that I really have no opinions on him, I don't think he'd play this awfully as mafia but then again he also knows there's enough kills that he doesn't have to do much more than force one or two mislynches and the game's over anyways. Null read for now, I want to see how good his reads are on other people because he's tunnelled a ridiculous amount on me so far and has just generally not been thinking through things.
- Blazade: He changes his opinions naturally, is putting in a lot of work to determine optimal strategies, and always has his own opinions. Definitely a town read.
- Blue_Tornado: Hasn't posted meaningful content yet, which is super concerning to me. Highly reminiscent of his play as mafia godfather in ANOCymous. Strong mafia read.
- Da Letter El: Also hasn't posted meaningful content, though his play is consistent with both previous townDLE and mafiaDLE play. Null read for now, need to see a lot more.
- Flyhn: Stated this a post or two ago, but I think he's looking really towny. He has his own opinions, is putting in a lot of effort to read people, and I don't think either of these would be true if he weren't town.
- Haruno: His blatant refusal to engage with arguments but rather point to other people thinking something is really concerning, and his seeming lack of care about what could go wrong with his (imo) reckless lemming behavior and willingness to let Vegeta murder villagers is similarly concerning. He's new so I don't have as strong a read on him, but he definitely needs to start posting original thought. Lean mafia read.
- internet: Mentioned this previously, but I think this is his mafia play so far. No original opinions, little regard for following up on other people's independent research, zero regard for risk analysis. Mafia read.
- Jalmont: Kind of trolling so far, but I think this is his townplay tbh. He is engaging and has original opinions, and is relatively active. I've seen this play when he's on the village, and when he's on the mafia it seems to me he has less original contribution and more idling (though the same density of trolling xD). Town read.
- King_: Original contribution though he is buddying me pretty hard, which could be his mafia play I just haven't seen his mafia play lol. I lean town on him because I think that proposing pro-town strategies is more indicative of alliance in this game than in most (any) other NOC, but if he keeps just mindlessly defending me then I'm reminded of Celever in the last NOC a bit.
- LightWolf: Playing awfully, suggesting terrible plays, zero regard for risk, randomly capitalizing things. It should be pretty obvious that I think he is a Third Party player, though I actually think his odds of being Mafia are rather low in comparison to his odds of being town. In case it wasn't obvious: Third Party>Town>Mafia read.
- macle: Zero contribution. Does this as mafia or as village. His wanting a tl;dr on me vs LW reads to me to be a bit concerning because it reads as 'how do I go along with the flow the easiest', but it's hard to say because he hasn't done anything. Null read for now.
- Mithril: Original contribution and seems to actually appreciate risk to the town. Not a ton of content but a definite town read for now.
- rssp1: Shitposting and not actually contributing, not much to go on but a mafia lean here.
- Steeledges: Has he posted? Legitimately don't remember any contribution from him at all. Null read obviously.
- TIK: Might do this as village. Might do this as mafia, haven't seen him be mafia in literal years. His lack of care is a bit concerning and inconsistent with his town play from Fire and Ice. Lean mafia read for now for this reason.
- UncleSam: What an amazing NOC player, always gets half his fellow villagers to misread pro-town shit as anti-town shit until they figure out wtf is going on. Literally happens every game, amazing.
- Yeti: Original contribution and pointing to stuff I missed, definite town read here.

For those keeping score at home:
Town reads: 6 (7 including self obviously): acidphoenix/Blazade/Flyhn/Jalmont/Mithril/Yeti/UncleSam
Lean Town reads: 1 (King_)
Null reads: 4 (billymills/DLE/macle/Steeledges)
Lean Mafia reads: 4 (Asek/Haruno/rssp1/TIK)
Mafia reads: 2 (Blue_Tornado/internet)
Third Party reads: 1 (LightWolf)

People really need to get a grip and figure out that this is a roles game, not a pure vanilla NOC. Roles will win us this game if we play properly. That being said I do want to see player lists like the one above, to guarantee that the mafia have to give opinions on their partners and to give the village more useful things to work through in future days.

If the twins do in fact both kill (my understanding of the role was that only one or the other did and that if they didn't pick the same target neither was perceived as targeting, jumpluff pls confirm) then obviously Vegeta is worse for them vs. better. I'd refine my read on LightWolf to Broly>Town>Mafia>Androids if that is the case. Need host confirmation though.
 
billymills said:
I'm good with pushing sam to claim.

I'm not really sure what to do with claims. I don't really want to get bogged into meta discussions. I think forcing the mafia to think on their feet rather than being able to point to meta justification here works in our favour a little better.
Click to expand...

That is not at all what I want dicussed or ever happen before we set the damn rules billy. Bad billy.

acidphoenix said:
I agree with lw although I also think that reviver who hasn't revived yet is another good exception since they can be cleared easily from it even with a cc and having another townie is v value
Click to expand...

And then mafia being lynched claims reviver, reviver has to counter claim, village has to go 50-50 between two revivers, even if we get it right, our reviver is now outed.
 
I'm only gonna reply to the part where US can't call me "wrong" and "playing terribly". Twin kill can't be bloocked by doctor, ergo if I twin signaled I'd kill billy, then doctor wouldn't be on him anyways.
 
LightWolf said:
I'm only gonna reply to the part where US can't call me "wrong" and "playing terribly". Twin kill can't be bloocked by doctor, ergo if I twin signaled I'd kill billy, then doctor wouldn't be on him anyways.
Click to expand...
Missed that the twin kill was unblockable, in that case ya I'd have never brought up what you yourself said if I'd realized that.

Either way if the twin role works as you claim it does (and I'm going to wait on host confirmation there) I already said what I'd refine my read on you to be.
 
UncleSam said:
There's not 'six possible scum targets', there's 3. Two of them are nightkillable and the Androids only send one person to kill (I presume? jumpluff pls confirm). And there's eight village targeting roles, not seven.

Cleans are meaningless yes, but we are on a timer. If we let the mafia waste our claims we never get cleans in the lategame, and the cleans which matter are the unkillables (BPV and Vegeta) because those are the strong late-game roles. If we let the mafia waste three of our claims then we never get those cleans ever. That is the reason it is important to claim sooner rather than later (and in Vegeta's case due to the chances of killing villagers, today).

Both claiming PR is 100% better than claiming their individual roles, because then the mafia don't know which one is the BPV (who could thus theoretically be killed) and which one is Vegeta. It is 100% better if they are both claiming.

So no, nothing I've said was silly.
Click to expand...
I don't see your logic at all? Was it ever stated anywhere that each individual android target wasn't eligible for a vegeta kill? Since if 17 hits vegeta and 18 hits not vegeta, 17 would still die on virtue of targetting vegeta. Or is this not the case?

HOW ARE MAFIA WASTING CLAIMS??????? or how are they wasted claims? Village would gladly trade one claim per mafia at any point in time. Buu claiming is worthless since his main point is to soak up a hit for village, village has no chance of killing him aka wasting his BPV since goku/beerus aren't using their NK's on day 1. Making buu revealed just helps everyone besides village especially early game and to quote tfc, "You gotta have dinner before you worry about dessert."

I don't see how both claiming PR is any good at all? If anything it just means cell/broly targets them 100% instead of androids/mafia which is 100% bad and it's not like they'll get killed if they hit vegeta so they can easily test the vegeta claim at no loss bar wasting a NK at the cost of 2 claims which is in no way shape or form worth it.

Everything you said has been very detrimental to village and you've mostly been trying to fluff it up with the whole WE MIGHT KILL VILLAGERS when really the odds of killing one or even multiple villagers is very low and it pales in comparison with the odds of getting any mafia.
 
Yeti said:
watch me do it u cuck
Click to expand...
Record it, I need to make midnight snacks because I haven't eaten shit yet today, well yesterday.

Also lets run an interesting experiment. I summon BLAZADE to the stand. Blazade, you as a clear village read on US part, please go through all my posts, and make a nice little post about what you agree with and what you don't agree with in regards to what I said.(The point is I'm trying to use US's own logic against him to prove what I think is not idiotic, because explaining it to him ain't working)
 
Haruno said:
I don't see your logic at all? Was it ever stated anywhere that each individual android target wasn't eligible for a vegeta kill? Since if 17 hits vegeta and 18 hits not vegeta, 17 would still die on virtue of targetting vegeta. Or is this not the case?

HOW ARE MAFIA WASTING CLAIMS??????? or how are they wasted claims? Village would gladly trade one claim per mafia at any point in time. Buu claiming is worthless since his main point is to soak up a hit for village, village has no chance of killing him aka wasting his BPV since goku/beerus aren't using their NK's on day 1. Making buu revealed just helps everyone besides village especially early game and to quote tfc, "You gotta have dinner before you worry about dessert."

I don't see how both claiming PR is any good at all? If anything it just means cell/broly targets them 100% instead of androids/mafia which is 100% bad and it's not like they'll get killed if they hit vegeta so they can easily test the vegeta claim at no loss bar wasting a NK at the cost of 2 claims which is in no way shape or form worth it.

Everything you said has been very detrimental to village and you've mostly been trying to fluff it up with the whole WE MIGHT KILL VILLAGERS when really the odds of killing one or even multiple villagers is very low and it pales in comparison with the odds of getting any mafia.
Click to expand...
If we are lynching someone anyway regardless of a claim then obviously a mafia will waste a claim for free. That is literally the definition of a waste. We are going to lynch someone so my point is that there are two scenarios:
1. We lynch a villager
2. We lynch a mafia and they waste one of our claims

That is my point. That is why it is a waste.

Cell/Broly targeting them is AMAZING for us, it's one of the only ways we ever find Cell (via our Tracker/Watcher) under any circumstances, and Broly wastes his kills on them. That is 100% a win for the village.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top