Eviolite

[Darkamber8828]

Dragonair, iirc, is less bulky than Dragonite even with Evo Stone. And while Pure Dragon typing sounds good on paper, it's the secondary typing's resistances/immunities that make Dragons what they're known to be. I mean take a look at Kurimugan. A Pure Dragon with Outrage, Superpower, Rock Slide, 83 Power Fire Fang, AND Glare with decent bulk. Yeah, it's a good Dragon, but pure Dragon typing puts it at a disadvantage for a team slot. (that and speed)

I want to know if anyone has looked into Togetic?
It has Roost, Nasty Plot, and Baton Pass
442 Def (Max EVs & Bold w/ Evo Stone) 309 Def minimum neutral nature
508 Sp.Def (Max EVs & Calm w/ Evo Stone) 369 Sp.Def minimum neutral nature

A Nasty Plot Passer set could be pretty scary if used right. Those Porygon2 Stats, minus HP which is 314 max, with the ability to Baton Pass full-fledged Nasty Plots, Roost, and pretty much always go last so the receiving Pokemon never takes damage. Like this is purely Theorymon here, but this, on paper, has a lot of promise.
And it really sets itself appart being a bulky Pokemon able to pass Nasty Plots. Not just Calm Minds. Nasty Plots. In 2 turns you can have a sweeper. And 2 turns, when you're talking about 'that' kind of bulk, isn't asking all that much.

That's all I've got to add to this stone of chaos. I'd like to see how a team using Togetic would turn out.

Dragonite with 4 evs in defense: 323 hp, 227 defense, 236 SpD

Dragonair @ Evo-stone: 263 hp, 251 defense, 264 SpD

With four evs in defense for both, Dragonite is bulkier on both sides.

With 252 HP evs for both, Dragonair is bulkier on both sides. Slightly.

Since Dragonair needs multiple DDs to sweep anyway, running 252 HP is probably the better idea, so...fuck yea Dragonair.

 

[Arc Tech]

Dragonite with 4 evs in defense: 323 hp, 227 defense, 236 SpD

Dragonair @ Evo-stone: 263 hp, 251 defense, 264 SpD

With four evs in defense for both, Dragonite is bulkier on both sides.

With 252 HP evs for both, Dragonair is bulkier on both sides. Slightly.

Since Dragonair needs multiple DDs to sweep anyway, running 252 HP is probably the better idea, so...fuck yea Dragonair.

Shelgon outclasses dragonair for the most part, with much better defense, and not much worse hp and sp def, and wish if needed. The only thing dragonair has over it is dragon tail, twave, and maybe some other support options. If you're dding though, shelgon's better.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

I also like the fact that Dragonair learns Shed Skin so it doesn't have to face status spreaders without having to worry about being paralyzed, burned, poisoned, or slept.

Dragonair just might be an interesting bulky dragon / dragon dancer, but I really like having Leftovers on a Dragon-Tail abusing Dragonite. Being slightly bulkier doesn't really add to Dragonair's presumptuous use as a "bulky Dragon", so I'll stick with Salamence / Garchomp / Dragonite for Dragon Tail. As a Dragon Dancer, this might be pretty useful once Dragonair actually Dragon Dances. the bad thing is that Dragonair ACTUALLY needs more Dragon Dances than most Dragons, but Altaria already deals with that. Dragonair just might be a theoretical legitimate threat with Evolution Stone.

Also, about Togetic, not sure. Togekiss already has a Nasty Plot pass and could make good use of the boost...

 

[Katakiri]

Also, about Togetic, not sure. Togekiss already has a Nasty Plot pass and could make good use of the boost...

Well the thing is, Togekiss is NOWHERE near as bulky. Togetic is basically a Porygon2 that can Baton Pass Nasty Plots. Just played a few matches with a team I sort of just threw together to test Togetic. This is how it went down:

Togetic (F) @ Evolution Stone
Trait: Hustle
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Substitute
- Roost

Battle Log

Battle between Katakiri and Llednar_LANGIT started!

Tier: Wifi
Variation: +14, -17
Rule: Rated
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Species Clause
Rule: Wifi Battle

Llednar_LANGIT sent out Blaziken!
Katakiri sent out Togetic!

Start of turn 1
The foe's Blaziken used Swords Dance!
The foe's Blaziken's Attack sharply rose!

Togetic used Substitute!
Togetic made a substitute!

The foe's Blaziken's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Blaziken's Speed rose!

Start of turn 2
The foe's Blaziken used Swords Dance!
The foe's Blaziken's Attack sharply rose!

Togetic used Nasty Plot!
Togetic's Sp. Att. sharply rose!

The foe's Blaziken's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Blaziken's Speed rose!

Start of turn 3
The foe's Blaziken used Protect!
The foe's Blaziken protected itself!

Togetic used Baton Pass!
Katakiri called Togetic back!
Katakiri sent out Mirokarosu! (Vaporeon)

The foe's Blaziken's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Blaziken's Speed rose!

Start of turn 4
The foe's Blaziken used Baton Pass!
Llednar_LANGIT called Blaziken back!
Llednar_LANGIT sent out Gyarados!

Mirokarosu's substitute suppressed the foe's Gyarados's Intimidate!

Mirokarosu used Surf!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Gyarados lost 29% of its health!

The foe's Gyarados restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 5
Mirokarosu used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
The foe's Gyarados lost 76% of its health!
The foe's Gyarados fainted!

Llednar_LANGIT sent out Scizor!

Start of turn 6
The foe's Scizor used Bullet Punch!
It's not very effective...
Mirokarosu's substitute took the damage!
The foe's Scizor is hurt by its Life Orb!

Mirokarosu used Surf!
The foe's Scizor lost 90% of its health!
The foe's Scizor fainted!

Llednar_LANGIT sent out Blissey!

Start of turn 7
Mirokarosu used Baton Pass!
Katakiri called Mirokarosu back!
Katakiri sent out Togetic!

The foe's Blissey used Thunder Wave!
Togetic's substitute blocked Thunder Wave!

Start of turn 8
The foe's Blissey used Seismic Toss!
Togetic's substitute faded!

Togetic used Nasty Plot!
Togetic's Sp. Att. sharply rose!

Start of turn 9
The foe's Blissey used Seismic Toss!
Togetic lost 100 HP! (31% of its health)

Togetic used Baton Pass!
Katakiri called Togetic back!
Katakiri sent out Jolteon!

Jolteon is floating on a balloon!

Start of turn 10
Llednar_LANGIT called Blissey back!
Llednar_LANGIT sent out Gliscor!

Jolteon used Thunderbolt!
It had no effect!

The foe's Gliscor's Toxic Orb activated!
The foe's Gliscor was poisoned!

Start of turn 11
Jolteon used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
The foe's Gliscor lost 100% of its health!
The foe's Gliscor fainted!

Llednar_LANGIT sent out Blaziken!

Start of turn 12
The foe's Blaziken used Protect!
The foe's Blaziken protected itself!

Jolteon used Thunderbolt!
The foe's Blaziken protected itself!

The foe's Blaziken's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Blaziken's Speed rose!

Start of turn 13
Jolteon used Baton Pass!
Katakiri called Jolteon back!
Katakiri sent out Mirokarosu! (Vaporeon)

The foe's Blaziken used Flare Blitz!
It's not very effective...
Mirokarosu lost 96 HP! (21% of its health)
The foe's Blaziken is hit with recoil!

The foe's Blaziken's Speed Boost increases its speed!
The foe's Blaziken's Speed rose!
The foe's Blaziken restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Mirokarosu restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 14
The foe's Blaziken used Baton Pass!
Llednar_LANGIT called Blaziken back!
Llednar_LANGIT sent out Starmie!

Mirokarosu used Surf!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Starmie lost 75% of its health!

Mirokarosu restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 15
The foe's Starmie used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
Mirokarosu lost 202 HP! (45% of its health)

Mirokarosu used Baton Pass!
Katakiri called Mirokarosu back!
Katakiri sent out Jolteon!

Jolteon is floating on a balloon!

Start of turn 16
The foe's Starmie used Hidden Power!
Jolteon lost 111 HP! (40% of its health)
Jolteon's Balloon popped!

Jolteon used Thunderbolt!
It's super effective!
The foe's Starmie lost 24% of its health!
The foe's Starmie fainted!

Llednar_LANGIT sent out Blaziken!

Start of turn 17
Jolteon used Thunderbolt!
A critical hit!
The foe's Blaziken lost 97% of its health!
The foe's Blaziken fainted!

Llednar_LANGIT sent out Blissey!

Start of turn 18
Jolteon used Thunderbolt!
The foe's Blissey lost 52% of its health!

The foe's Blissey used Seismic Toss!
Jolteon lost 100 HP! (36% of its health)

The foe's Blissey restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 19
Jolteon used Thunderbolt!
The foe's Blissey lost 45% of its health!
The foe's Blissey is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

The foe's Blissey used Seismic Toss!
Jolteon lost 60 HP! (22% of its health)
Jolteon fainted!

The foe's Blissey restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Katakiri sent out Voodoom! (Mew)

Start of turn 20
Voodoom used Taunt!
The foe's Blissey fell for the taunt!

The foe's Blissey can't use Softboiled after the taunt!

The foe's Blissey restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 21
Voodoom used Aura Sphere!
It's super effective!
The foe's Blissey lost 20% of its health!
The foe's Blissey fainted!
Voodoom is hurt by its Life Orb!

Katakiri won the battle!
Katakiri: Great match!
Llednar_LANGIT: *Sing for myself: "Santai saja kawan, kau pasti bisa. Tenang saja kawan, hadapilah semua.. Kau harus bersabar, semua indah pada waktunya.." -- SAINT LOCO - SANTAI SAJA --

And I'm not even BSing about those Defenses:

Start of turn 12
The foe's Gyarados used Stone Edge!
It's super effective!
Togetic lost 114 HP! (36% of its health)

Togetic used Baton Pass!
Katakiri called Togetic back!
Katakiri sent out Mirokarosu! (Vaporeon)
Pointed stones dug into Mirokarosu!


I can only imagine what this thing could do if it was on a team that wasn't just thrown together in a couple minutes.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Your opponent sucks.

Start of turn 7
Mirokarosu used Baton Pass!
Katakiri called Mirokarosu back!
Katakiri sent out Togetic!

The foe's Blissey used Thunder Wave!
Togetic's substitute blocked Thunder Wave!

Start of turn 8
The foe's Blissey used Seismic Toss!
Togetic's substitute faded!

Togetic used Nasty Plot!
Togetic's Sp. Att. sharply rose!

Start of turn 9
The foe's Blissey used Seismic Toss!
Togetic lost 100 HP! (31% of its health)

Togetic used Baton Pass!
Katakiri called Togetic back!
Katakiri sent out Jolteon!

Jolteon is floating on a balloon!

Should've TWaved after breaking the Sub, which was what he wanted to do in the first place. Considering that Blissey is already faster, TWave could potentially shut down Togetic, then he can spam all the Seismic Tosses he want. >_>

Also, HP Grass on Starmie? BoltBeam is already decent coverage. Weirdo. And not knowing that Jolteon literally outspeeds everything in the tier that is not scarfed or called Aerodactyl/Ninjask = Fail.

(also, inb4BatonPassBlazikenisillegalwithSpeedBoost)

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Your opponent sucks.



Should've TWaved after breaking the Sub, which was what he wanted to do in the first place. Considering that Blissey is already faster, TWave could potentially shut down Togetic, then he can spam all the Seismic Tosses he want. >_>

And what does this have to do about the Evolution Stone?

And also, that is a common move everyone does. He probably predicted Sub will be used again and decided to just attack away. Have you just started playing Pokemon?


Anyways, I'll say that I'm interested in how the ES might affect the lower 'tiers' as well, especially NU.

 

[Prankster]

I heard a lot of talk about how the evolution stone will make LC very defensive and how it sucks because it defeats the purpose of evolving

I think its ok that P2 is better than PZ cuz they are played differently
ones defensive and ones offensive

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

I heard a lot of talk about how the evolution stone will make LC very defensive and how it sucks because it defeats the purpose of evolving

I think its ok that P2 is better than PZ cuz they are played differently
ones defensive and ones offensive

How does it defeat the purpose?
Evolutions will almost always be better. Some Pre-evolutions are just better at walling now.

 

[froggrunner]

How does it defeat the purpose?
Evolutions will almost always be better. Some Pre-evolutions are just better at walling now.

The only use of Blissey and Dusknoir WAS walling, now they're totally deadweight.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

The only use of Blissey and Dusknoir WAS walling, now they're totally deadweight.

Blissey isn't completely out classed by Chansey.(IIRC,Chansey only takes like 5% less damage with the Evolution Stone)
Dusknoir on the other hand,just got pwned by Dusclops.

 

[ChaosNebula]

No love for Murkrow? Perishtrapping, feather dancing, toxic spam, thunder wave spam, so many endless possibilities!


(I know nobody cares but.. yay 100th post)

 

[Noble Cactus]

The only use of Blissey and Dusknoir WAS walling, now they're totally deadweight.

Blissey's Wishes do restore slightly more HP, though it's by 5 HP more. Her biggest advantage is Leftovers. Walls without Lefties are at a bit of a disadvantage, especially if they don't have reliable recovery (as with Dusknoir vs. Dusclops).

 

[Gah777]

No love for Murkrow? Perishtrapping, feather dancing, toxic spam, thunder wave spam, so many endless possibilities!


(I know nobody cares but.. yay 100th post)

I've been trying out ES Murkrow, and I have to say, I love it.

YataGarasu
Murkrow@Evolution Stone
Ability: Mischievous Heart
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP/ 248 Def/ 8 SpD
-Roost
-Toxic
-Mean Look
-Taunt

With this spread and the ES it has 324 HP, 300 Def, and 183 SpD. It can take physical hits quite decently.

It's amazing. Too bad my new version of PO isn't saving logs because it destroyed two of my opponents Pokemon (Blissey & Swampert) by Mean Look trapping, Taunting, and Roost/Toxic stalling. It also succeeded in poisoning another of his Pokemon and setting them up for a kill. Murkrow was even still alive after the battle. Doesn't work on steels though (which is why you're allowed 6 Pokemon in a team ;D).

And if anyone gets the nickname, you're amazing.

 

[UltiMario]

Ah, Phoenix Wright, we love you so.

I love how I've seen Obscure shit like Murkrow and even Tangela look like completely viable choices from what the Evo Stone has done.

 

[Acritter]

The only use of Blissey and Dusknoir WAS walling, now they're totally deadweight.

Incorrect. Both have increased attacking options over their counterparts. Chansey/Dusclops have to use Seismic/Night/Toxic to attack, while Blissey/Dusknoir can run other attacking options and Leftovers (or Shed Shell). Now, rather than outclassing their prevos, they fulfill slightly different roles.

 

[breh]

Incorrect. Both have increased attacking options over their counterparts. Chansey/Dusclops have to use Seismic/Night/Toxic to attack, while Blissey/Dusknoir can run other attacking options and Leftovers (or Shed Shell). Now, rather than outclassing their prevos, they fulfill slightly different roles.

See the problem is that Dusknoir's attacking options suck no matter how you look at it. Yeah it has some nice coverage but its STAB is weaker than its unSTAB EQ :/ Thus Dusclops 100% outclasses TBH.

Blissey, on the other hand, does have nice coverage that's actually pretty useful. Fire Blast and Thunderbolt are really nice moves.

The missed item slot is negligible IMO. Shanderaa's not doing crap to Blissey or Chansey (well I guess neither does damage to the other but unimportant) and it doesn't OHKO Dusclops with non-specs Shadow Ball IIRC (which means that Dusclops can set up TR). Loss of Leftovers is mildly irritating but only in SS or Hail.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

I've been trying out ES Murkrow, and I have to say, I love it.

YataGarasu
Murkrow@Evolution Stone
Ability: Mischievous Heart
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP/ 248 Def/ 8 SpD
-Roost
-Toxic
-Mean Look
-Taunt

With this spread and the ES it has 324 HP, 300 Def, and 183 SpD. It can take physical hits quite decently.

It's amazing. Too bad my new version of PO isn't saving logs because it destroyed two of my opponents Pokemon (Blissey & Swampert) by Mean Look trapping, Taunting, and Roost/Toxic stalling. It also succeeded in poisoning another of his Pokemon and setting them up for a kill. Murkrow was even still alive after the battle. Doesn't work on steels though (which is why you're allowed 6 Pokemon in a team ;D).

And if anyone gets the nickname, you're amazing.

Neat set but what I like most is the Yu-gi-oh reference ;D

 

[SJCrew]

See the problem is that Dusknoir's attacking options suck no matter how you look at it. Yeah it has some nice coverage but its STAB is weaker than its unSTAB EQ :/ Thus Dusclops 100% outclasses TBH.

Blissey, on the other hand, does have nice coverage that's actually pretty useful. Fire Blast and Thunderbolt are really nice moves.

The missed item slot is negligible IMO. Shanderaa's not doing crap to Blissey or Chansey (well I guess neither does damage to the other but unimportant) and it doesn't OHKO Dusclops with non-specs Shadow Ball IIRC (which means that Dusclops can set up TR). Loss of Leftovers is mildly irritating but only in SS or Hail.

You make a lot of assumptions here. Dusknoir didn't have to be used exclusively as a wall because of those attacking options. Which gave him leeway for that awesome SubPunching set. Bulky Ghost serves me just fine, IMO. Even if you wanted to go full wall, you're going to miss the possibility of Thunder Punch, Ice Punch and Fire Punch. Even a priority Shadow Sneak that actually hurts. The game's over once Clops is taunted, but Dusknoir can still at least attack and revenge things.

Loss of Leftovers is a little more than mildly irritating. 6% less HP each turn really starts to add up in a war of attrition. Considering passive damage is everywhere in both this metagame and Pokemon in general, you're probably going to see them die a lot quicker than their stats would suggest.

In the context of this metagame, though, Dusknoir's role probably isn't needed as much as Dusclops'. But 'fully outclassed' and '100%' are pretty strong terms that you shouldn't throw around so lightly. You're still making a sacrifice in order to obtain that potent walling force.

 

[astrohawke]

After testing out both chansey and blissey, I have to say blissey is still better. Mainly because of how prevalent sandstorm is. Against most attacks, chansey walls better but only slightly which is almost completely made up for by leftovers. On turns not attacking, chansey loses 6% HP every turn which is extremely annoying. You have to heal so much more. Then of course there's the chance of some random pokemon using knock off on you which completely screws you over.

 

[Blightbringer]

I really really fear Porygon2 with this item. It's basically impossible to OHKO and with Porygon2's diverse special movepool it's generally able to net a kill or two.

My best bet against it is to Leech Seed stall with Nattorei (Gyro Ball doesn't do much to the slow duck) until it dies.

Tentacruel is also a pretty good way to deal with it, it doesn't worry about Thunderbolt too much (but you should always have Leech Seed set up for more recovery) and can spam Boiling Water until Porygon2 gets burned and dies of Burn damage.

That said, there are other good users of this item e.g. Dusclops whose low HP and Pain Split + Curse are a big pain in the ass for opposing defensive Pokemon. Chansey IMO is pretty overhyped as it still dies to most physical attacks, not mentioning the fact that its only viable attacking move is Seismic Toss. It's also EvoDusclops fodder, as it can easily stall with Pain Split + burn damage to kill the pink blob. Of course, the extra physical defense is always a boon which can turn a tight battle around but Chansey still doesn't like facing physical attackers.

Here are some interesting calclulations for you

350 Atk vs 178 Def & 704 HP (180 Base Power): 254 - 299 (36.08% - 42.47%)
the above is max/max +def Chansey (wielding the Miracle Stone) being hit by a generic 180 base power attack from, say... Lucario

350 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (180 Base Power): 109 - 129 (32.63% - 38.62%)
the above is Skarmory with identical EV distribution enduring the same scenario

As you can see, especially with most Skarmory running Shed Shell now due to Magnezone's increasing popularity, Chansey is taking physical hits only 4 percent harder than Skarmory. It is blatantly false to claim that Chansey dies to any physical attack when it's taking them almost as well as a renowned physical wall. Now consider Chansey's additional ability to withstand specially-based assaults, even without any investment.

 

[leingodf8]

Tangela seems like a decent option for it. With his already nice defense, he becomes more sturdy than tangrowth, and slightly more sturdy in SpD too (but still pretty shitty so watch yourself). Another reason hes somewhat better than other Evo stone abusers, is that he doesn't really need lefties, what with leech seed and regeneration... Finally he still has a decent SpA to hit off of (though tangrowths access to powerwhip was one of its biggest selling points).

 

[Banryu]

...WTF, 'Miracle of Evolution'? Is that like the english translation or something? :0

Huh, well...
I was thinking that this could be an interesting item for UU or NU weather teams to give to their Vulpix / Snover / Hippopotas. I mean, it doesn't do Vulpix a great deal of good without like Will-O-Wisp or something, but the other two, Hippo in particular, can make good use of it to increase their survival so they can continue to bring up weather if needed (which, come to think, isn't likely to happen in lower tiers, but still).

 

[TLK]

I prefer the ability to beat and break the subs of ghosts. If it wasn't for that, I'd run a Chansey with Softboiled (as I'd want instant healing as Wish/Protect loses 12.5% in a sandstorm over 2 turns).

Chansey is fantastic against a lot of things, but Blissey is a great Pokemon for netting surprise hills (hitting a Scizor on the switch with Flamethrower, hitting a dragon on the switch with Ice Beam).

 

[jrp]

It's been said, if something hits chansey with knock off, it essentially becomes dead weight. Porygon2 is still the best user of this imo, because it has good defenses before the stone is applied, which are augmented AFTER the stone's effect. Chansey has good sp, def, but absolutly pathetic defense. If you lose the stone, you're fucked. No exceptions.

I wonder, how would cloud nine lickiltung do with this? I'll have to test.

 

[More Cowbell]

It's been said, if something hits chansey with knock off, it essentially becomes dead weight. Porygon2 is still the best user of this imo, because it has good defenses before the stone is applied, which are augmented AFTER the stone's effect. Chansey has good sp, def, but absolutly pathetic defense. If you lose the stone, you're fucked. No exceptions.

I wonder, how would cloud nine lickiltung do with this? I'll have to test.

Lickitung isn't even that common in Little Cup (though its popularity rises), so I don't see it become too viable in OU soon. Maybe it has a niche as an anti-weather Pokémon, but iirc, Lickylicky's defences are comparable.