okay, so now two posts is a fucking discussion... What is Smogon coming to?
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Eviolite
- Thread starter Garganator
- Start date
okay, so now two posts is a fucking discussion... What is Smogon coming to?
Maybe GF feels like they need to "make up for" some of these Pokémon. Well, Scizor, Bliss, Dusknoir, and Gliscor ended up fine, but poor Rhyperior and P-Z hovered around near that "has potential but is hampered by one or two factors" line. Magnezone proved itself pretty effective last Gen, but was just missing a little speed to be great. Mamoswine was the same way.
In any case, it still confuses me why GF would even bother making this item that potentially outclasses the Poké's evolutions except for the reason above.
I don't see how Scyther benefits from Evo Stone. 70/80/80 defenses are pretty frail, and Scyther's gonna miss the power from Life Orb/Choice Item in UU.
Actually I'll be testing that out later on. I absolutely adore sealeo and loathe walrein. Abomasnow/Tentacruel/Froslass/Sealeo/Shandera/Espeon seems nice in paper.
No way in heaven. First, Dusknoir is. Second, Rhydon doesn't do anything with its Evo Stone; its typing just doesn't cut it. Rhyperior, on the other hand, has Solid Rock to kind of make up for SE moves, while having the choice of using an offensive item and, well, kill something before dying, unlike Rhydon.
...Yes, those pokémon were already "good" before evolving. Doesn't mean anything.
I tested Scyther some time ago and he isn´t bad at all. Even without investment, he can take hits well(I remember only getting 3HKOed by some Fire and Ice moves) while still being pretty fast and strong(110/105 is quite nice). He can roost off damage and scout with U-Turn until he gets the chance to SD up a couple of times. He can do that easily, so no need for LO.
SR is his only downfall, really. I won´t argue that Scyther won´t do Scizor´s job anytime soon, tough. Scyther is the better Sder while Scizor can pull the CB better.
And thats why anything that didn't have an evolution beforehand sucks with the item. Thats why this mostly benefiting the ones that go evolutions in Gen4 and why it looks like there is no Gen 5 pokemon capable of using it well.
I use Scyther and can say that this isn't true. Evo stone allows him to survive a lot of hits, even SE ones, while he SD's up. Even 1 SD gives Scyther more power than Life Orb and Choice Band combined, and the ability to switch moves is a massive plus. Its not uncommon to get to +4 or +6 before the opponent realises whats going on.
Well, I've been using Sandstorm team comprised of a defense core + sweepers, and the few Scythers I've met in Standard are wrecked by it. Jolly Doryuuzu's Rock Slide on 4/0 Scyther still does 96.45% - 114.89%, which is a ~80% to OHKO and a guaranteed KO with Sandstorm, while +2 Jolly 252Atk Technician Bug Bite does 54.85% - 64.54%.
Weavile's Ice Punch KOes Scyther after Stealth Rock, and Ice Punch + Ice Shard kills as well, which means that as long as Scyther doesn't attack on the switch-in, Focus Sash Weavile can easily dispose of it. Unless Scyther has Quick Attack, SD Weavile can set up as well.
People who are saying Scythers's 70/80/80 defenses are bad, that's the whole point of the Evolution Stone! A 252 Bold Scyther (yes I know you'd never want a Bold Scyther) without Prevo Stone has a max Defense of 284. With Evo Stone this is bumped up to 426, a very respectable number! And just putting it out there for one of my favourite Pokemon, Tangela with max SP.Def gets a much nicer 294 Sp. Def to work with, and a max Defense Tangela gets about 541 Defense!
EDIT: This was posted after Engineer Pikachu's post, and I am aware that Bug/Flying type still leaves him crippled by numerous things!
EDIT: This was posted after Engineer Pikachu's post, and I am aware that Bug/Flying type still leaves him crippled by numerous things!
I don't think anyone has mentioned Pupitar. It can be bulkier on the special Side than Rhydon and it has the Shed Skin ability. It's not much, but it could be worth using on a Sand Stall team. Also if it uses rest there is a 51% chance of waking up early :D
FYI I haven't tested Rhydon and it's just therymoning... Go ahead and flame me...
Edit: Purotooga (sea turtle) is slightly worse with Solid Rock very good against Super Effective Hits but has better Typing and a base attack only 6 lower :D
These pokemon are both Rock Types so there better in a Sand Stall Team.
FYI I haven't tested Rhydon and it's just therymoning... Go ahead and flame me...
Edit: Purotooga (sea turtle) is slightly worse with Solid Rock very good against Super Effective Hits but has better Typing and a base attack only 6 lower :D
These pokemon are both Rock Types so there better in a Sand Stall Team.
Don't forget Munchlax
This item kinda sucks, I mean really. The only users I'd consider are Porygon2 and Chansey because they have either decent attacking options and/or reliable recovery. The rest should stay in lower tiers, although it is admittedly cool that some things become viable there when they wouldn't have a chance before.
Wow, Pupitar! But if Rest is its only redeeming factor with Shed Skin, it's probably better off left to others. Still, being unique is one of the best things about Pokemon. Also, what about Dotekkotetsu? It outclasses Roopushin for Special and Physical bulk, though it loses out on HP.
Good Point. I may try Roob's pre evo some time :D
Also something off topic, why do I take forever to notice a new page...
You've obviously never fought Dusclops before.
Just throwing a few more randoms your way for evaluation:
Shibibiiru, Shibirudon's pre-evo has nice defenses after Pre-Evo's boost and an average 75 HP sat isn't too bad. Not too many bulky options, but with Coil it can take physical hits like a champ and prepare to hit with some boosted moves off its Base 85 Attack. U-Turn and Light Screen may help it somewhat too.
Gigear also makes use of acceptable defenses, but really lacks the movepool to do anything.
Seadra already has a nice Defense, but with Evo Stone, it reaches a very respectable 475 and alleviates its Sp.Def problem, which on a +Def set can reach 273.
Vigoroth can make an acceptable physical player with 80/80/55 defenses, and a Speed of 90, making it quite fast.
Shibibiiru, Shibirudon's pre-evo has nice defenses after Pre-Evo's boost and an average 75 HP sat isn't too bad. Not too many bulky options, but with Coil it can take physical hits like a champ and prepare to hit with some boosted moves off its Base 85 Attack. U-Turn and Light Screen may help it somewhat too.
Gigear also makes use of acceptable defenses, but really lacks the movepool to do anything.
Seadra already has a nice Defense, but with Evo Stone, it reaches a very respectable 475 and alleviates its Sp.Def problem, which on a +Def set can reach 273.
Vigoroth can make an acceptable physical player with 80/80/55 defenses, and a Speed of 90, making it quite fast.
Given 252 HP/128 DEF/128 SDF with an Impish nature and an evolution stone, Chaobuu hits 384/222/293/158/267/146. Its defenses are the physically bulky version of Togekiss, with a bit more HP. With Thick Fat, you get a 4x resist to Fire and Ice, and a 2x resist to Bug, Grass, and Steel (lolnattorei). You're weak to Water, Ground, and Rock, but you do have Will-O-Wisp, and Taunt.
In short it sucks but not quite as badly as you might think. Maybe it'll be usable in NU when this generation settles down.
Lairon already has a freakish 140 base Defense, and a decent 60 Base HP and 50 Special Defense (decent after Evo Stone). With unique Metal Bursts to reflect the pain onto the enemy, if played right, Lairon could find a niche in lower tiers. Rock/Steel typing isn't helping, though...B/W really is redefining Pokemon, huh?
In full stall, i've been going back to blissey, as the lack of lefties hurts too much D=
Well, the only other ones I'd dare to use in OU if I wasn't just messing around are Golbat, Murkrow, Misdreavus, Magneton, and maybe Machoke. (And out of the five you mentioned, I wouldn't dare use Gligar.)
For UU and down, though, here are some that I can think of aside from Scyther:
Ivysaur gets to set up Growth easily when it's slightly more durable than Venusaur. Togetic has various utility moves and high defenses at 55/85/105. Even at 252/0/0, which I wouldn't expect on anything except a Nasty Plot set, you get to 314/309/369. Roselia has all sorts of utility moves herself and a great base 80 Special Defense and Leech Seed to work with.
Bronzor winds up with noticeably better defenses than Bronzong--with 252/80/92+ we're looking at 338/288/320 vs. 318/342/381. On the downside, Bronzor can't attack at all and has even less recovery than Bronzong thanks to no Leftovers, but it could still be used for screens, Rain Dance (down where there's no auto-inducer), Stealth Rock, Toxic, and so on.
Daburan misses Rankurusu's huge HP, but has the same 125 Special Attack with Recover and Magic Guard, so there's a really solid Psychic-type. Zuruggu turns out only slightly worse than its evolution all around for stats, so maybe it could be a reasonable UU substitute for Zuruzukin. Likewise with Monmen for Erufuun, though Leftovers is a good item option for that one as well.
Duskull is funny. The only use I could see for it would be in NU since it doesn't have the speed or power of Misdreavus while having the same type, ability, and most of the same movepool, but for being the first evolution stage of three, 244/459/325 defenses with 252/252/4 EVs is pretty crazy.
It's an annoying old party man! On a serious note, I agree with you completely that lacking mini Recovery really hurts Pokemon with no natural recovery themselves when the Pokemon is designed to take hits forever. *cough Porygon-2 is perfect because it has Recover cough* it's hard to find an Evo Stone sweeper, though...Dotekkotetsu and P-2 are some off-the-top examples.
EDIT: How could I ignore Machoke? Or Rhydon for that matter?
EDIT: How could I ignore Machoke? Or Rhydon for that matter?
