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Finding Suspects Within the Current D/P Metagame (Discussion Thread)

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Lastly, the argument that SR keeps certain Pokemon in check. I believe is also totally ridiculous. You realize that Stealth Rock helps a lot of these Pokemon reach certain 2HKO's that aren't possible without them? Just because they are going to be defensively better without Stealth Rock doesn't mean that it outweights the offensive hit that they are going to take.
I agree with you somewhat, SR does reduce the number of hits to KO certain things even for the flyers that suffer from it. Without SR focus sash should be easier to use and can help stop sweeps if you're in a bad position with salamence and gyarados. I don't think it's a huge deal in OU though, it helps a lot of strategies and it doesn't affect a large portion of pokemon greatly, many that are seem to still get good useage (salamence, gyarados, togekiss, zapdos, even yanmega, fuck bellyzard - note how 3 of those have roost). As for UU, it affects a lot more pokemon, and it really hinders team building if you don't wanna make room for a spinner. I'm not very involved in UU but just looking at claydol's useage and the number of pokemon that SR affects, I'd like to see this metagame to get tested without it, during when the BLs get merged in and after adjustments are made.

EDIT: Chileon - Salamence won't get banned don't worry >_>, and remember smogon's not banning things that look broken, they test them first which is the most important part of making a decision
 
I still hold that banning Stealth Rock is the worst idea I've ever seriously heard discussed by this community, but whatever. All this "necessary evil" stuff is kind of irritating (in my mind there is nothing "evil" about Stealth Rock) but if it keeps people from trying to ban a perfectly legitimate move then I'll take it =/
 
the problem with sr is it makes offensive teams so potent, but removing garchomp hopefully "offsets" this.

I don't like the idea of the 50% on certain pokes it's not like they needed it at all, and it doesn't seem "rational" to change it's effect on certain pokes

if anything sr ban will drive the metagame into a much more adv style of play with more stll options viable.
 
I think I could live with Deoxys-S forever in OU, but Stealth Rock needs to be at least tested, personally I want to see that move banned.

I agree with the predication that Stealth Rock does more harm than good to the metagames. So it may keep Gyarados and soon-to-arrive Outrage Mence in check. Personally, I never had a problem with Gyarados, and I never even used Stealth Rock. Obviously I can't say much about Outrage Mence right now, but I don't think this new move will make it any more resistant to the ever so present ice attacks.

My main complaint is that SR cripples every players most important move: Switching. It fucks up fire, ice and bug types, leading to a stale metagame where these types are avoided at all costs. Bulky Moltres is actually a great Lucario counter. Articuno switches into Celebi and laughs in its face, but SR completely ruins them. Like I said before, I think SR is bad for both the OU and UU metagames, and if it doesn't get banned, I at least hope for a "Stealth Rock Clause" to give some team diversity back to the game.
 
if anything sr ban will drive the metagame into a much more adv style of play with more stall options viable.
SR is one of the main ways stall teams can deal damage, though.

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other at this point.
 
SR has gotten way out of hand. Although instead of banning the move it might be better if we nerf it in some ways such as:

-Removing the super effective aspect of it so we don't get 50% on a switch

or

-Making it have three layers of power like spikes, with the thrid layer being at the power it currently is

This would make it more fair IMO while not removing the attack.
 
CLAFABLE? your answer to SR is CLAFABLE (i'm talking specifically to arash here)? is it just me or does clafabe not prevent SR damage to any of its team members? it solves nothing.

No, I never said Clefable was my answer to SR. I'm just saying that Infinity was wrong in saying that SR hit EVERYTHING in the game with 100% accuracy, and he has edited the post now.
 
SR is one of the main ways stall teams can deal damage, though.

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other at this point.

exactly, getting rid of stealth rock would be changing everything, just to potentially balance offense/defense (and stop people from having to watch their pokemon take damage "for no reason"), which isn't necessary in the first place since stall teams are viable either way.
 
Very similar things that I notice here regarding why people want Stealth Rock and Garchomp banned;

Garchomp being banned was a combination of being rather powerful and making the standard metagame so utterly dull and boring, having to see Garchomp on almost every team.

Similar concept with Stealth Rocks, it restricts the standard metagame. Either use the same Pokémon that don't take Super-effective damage from Stealth Rock or use them and make it extremely difficult to win because every time you switch them in you take a large twenty-five to fifty percent of damage.

To all of you who mention Rapid Spin as an option, I really don't feel good using one Pokémon to eliminate the effects of Stealth Rock, because of this everybody is using Pokémon that don't take Super-effective damage because of Stealth Rock.

Stealth Rock only takes one turn to set up, something that anyone can do. Unlike Stealth Rock, Spikes takes a whole three turns to set up and if it is Rapid Spinned away the opponent just wasted a whole three turns. In this case Spikes may not be considered 'broken' at all whereas Stealth Rock gives you a major advantage and only takes one turn to set up.

Stealth Rock sours and restricts the metagame insomuch that in every team I make I simply can't put anything that takes twenty-five percent or more damage.
 
Deoxys-S Is too strong. He kill almost everything, and with a little team coverage can win you a game.
well, cant we give SR "charges"?
Making it work only 3 or 5 times, then it becomes eliminated, and needed to set up again.
 
Nidoking can do 53% or more to every single Pokémon in the game. He has no 4x weaknesses and fairly good defenses, making him a little harder to revenge kill. Plus he can hit everything with STAB SE attack against him for SE damage too! He's also pretty fast, attacks from both sides of the spectrum, and can't even be stalled out with Toxic OR Thunder Wave! Never mind that he's not used that much in Standard, it's because people think he's too cheap! He's Uber!

DOWN WITH THE KING! (Sarcasm?)

Yes, let us ban Stealth Rock. Is it just me or do I smell a Focus Sash rampage on its way?
Or Auto-Weather on every team? Or potentially a team full of Fake-Outers!?

Using a spinner isn't that simple. Most well built SR teams have a taunter or two or a Ghost. Given that many of the spinners have a hard time with fighting ghosts as well its not too easy to get rid of SR.
Curious. What will Taunt exactly achieve?

Deoxys-S used Taunt.
Delibird fell for the Taunt!
Delibird used Rapid Spin.
Delibird blew the Spikes away!

Deoxys-S lost 23% HP.
Deoxys-S is hit from recoil from its fail
.
Deoxys-S lost 34% HP.

Anything you switch into Gyarados will or should 1HKO it or simply force it to switch out. Stealth Rock will takes its toll.. sort of. Gyarados only needs 1 DD to sweep decently and 2 is ggr for the most part. I can easily see Gyarados pull 2 DD's at 50% HP. Point being Stealth Rock is a factor in the game of Pokemon Life but it doesn't really effect everything in its entirety. Gyarados is still Gyarados and can sweep in a heart beat, Salamance will still punch holes into walls, and BellyZard can work around Stealth Rock.

Spikes as mentioned are not nearly as effective as Stealth Rock. Except how I see it is.. they stack, the damage output is consistent 12%-19%-25%, and generally speaking anyone throwing out spikes WILL have something to block Rapid Spin.

There has to be more Suspects than these 2... (eg: Ubers?)
 
I highly doubt changing how the move works will be taken into serious consideration. That's like banning Outrage from Garchomp so it can stay in OU which is well... stupid.

The only action I see that may be taken toward Stealth Rocks is to ban or not to ban.
 
Agreed, rapid spin is really a pathetic option. By the time the "spinner" has come to the field, SR has already dealt out damage (including to the spinner). At which point in time the result is this:

Team with SR user: sacrificed 1 turn of set up to put some damage on the other team.

Team with spinner: sacrificed 1 turn of set up. . . . yeah, and didn't do anything to the opposing team.

>.>

Then again, if you compare SR to an offensive move, suddenly SR doesn't seem quite as potent. I mean there's a good chance an SR user gets killed in the process of setting it up. having to fight the rest of the match 5-6 does not seem like a nice trade off just to get rocks up.
 
i didn't say clefable is a stealth rock counter, just that he doesn't get hit by it, and seeing as how a bunch of you guys think stealth rock is so broken clefable should be right up your alley.

salamence, togekiss, zapdos, weavile, and gyarados do just fine taking 25% each switch in, and yanmega does just fine despite the 50%. stealth rock is more of a check against flying types, who are immune to the most common move in the game, spikes, toxic spikes, and arena trap.

also, there was another topic floating around where someone posted why rock-weak BL pokes weren't exactly gonna break top 5 OU anytime soon...

EDIT: found it.. originally posted by bologo

With all due respect, the types that are weak to Stealth Rock have many other problems as well that prevent several of their pokemon from being OU besides Stealth Rock.

Let's look at the BL pokemon of these SR weak types and see what else is wrong with them:

Fire

Arcanine: Bad movepool, not particularly good or bad at any role. Howl is its only way of boosting Attack, and is a very slow way of doing it. Hard to switch in during OU matches due to common weaknesses in Fire, Rock and Ground, regardless of SR weak.

Blaziken: Not even SR weak, but is outclassed by Infernape besides a few rather specific niche roles.

Charizard: Its only really good moveset is extremely predictable, and is already really risky to try and pull off, this is the BellyZard moveset. In this moveset, Stealth Rock arguably helps it by getting him to 25% health faster, for an easier Salac boost. He has 3 common weaknesses in Water, Electric, and Rock (4x). All of his other movesets are often done much better by Infernape, except in certain situations where a Ground immunity is needed on a team.

Entei: Has a horrendous movepool, and 3 common weaknesses to Rock, Water, and Ground, making it hard to switch him in. Arcanine does what it does, but better, and Arcanine has already been explained.

Houndoom: Has terrible Defense, and average Special Defense. Its 95 base Speed is not enough to compensate for the bad defenses and 4 very common weaknesses in Fighting, Rock, Water, and Ground. This makes it hard to switch in, and very hard to sweep without paralysis on the opponent's fast attackers.

Magmortar: Has the 3 common weaknesses of a pure Fire-type, which aren't helped by a base 67 Defense, and a base 83 Speed is simply not very good. If he had just a bit more Speed, he'd be much closer to OU, regardless of his Stealth Rock weakness thanks to his beefy offenses, but the Speed is what's keeping him down.

Moltres: 3 weaknesses to common attacking types in Water, Electric, and Rock (4x), which really hinder his survivability, regardless of SR. 90 base Speed means that his sweeping ability is somewhat hindered since so many OU pokemon are faster than him, and have super-effective moves on him. The 3 huge weaknesses he has make it hard for him to play defensively as well, especially because of how offensive the metagame has gotten.

Typhlosion: His best moveset (Choice Scarf) is extremely predictable. Choice Specs has very few options, and the Sunny Day sets are screwed by Sandstorm. That, combined with the common weaknesses, and mediocre defenses make people not want to use it enough to make it become OU.

Ice

Abomasnow: Was OU for a very long time. Having 7 weaknesses, with 3 of them being to very common types (Rock, Fighting, 4x Fire), doesn't help it to stay alive at all, and neither does its 60 base Speed. Its actual stats aren't exactly the most impressive out there either.

Articuno: Has one of the worst type combinations in the game, regardless of what SR does to it. It has a lot of trouble walling opponents with only 2 resistances and 1 immunity, with the resistances being to very uncommon types. Add on the weaknesses to Fire, Electric, Steel, and Rock (4x), and that makes it very hard for Arty to switch in even when Stealth Rock isn't up. Taking away Stealth Rock arguably hurts Articuno in a way, because his only other form of real damage besides Ice Beam is gone, because he now has to rely on his teammates having only Spikes/Toxic Spikes up if he wants to utilize Roar very well, and those are learned by few. Articuno also has an awful movepool, with very few offensive moves, and support moves that are learned by several other pokemon that don't have a huge amount of weaknesses, and basically depends completely on its stats. It may be a Garchomp counter without Stealth Rock, but once Garchomps just start running Stone Edge, Articuno's just going to go back down in usage if it went up at all.

Regice: It only has 1 resistance (to Ice), and 3 big weaknesses (Fire, Fighting, Rock) with 1 not-so-huge weakness (Steel). This makes it totally inferior to Blissey at Special Walling, and only useful in niche situations. He doesn't even have a 50% recovery move, which is a huge hindrance to its walling ability already, regardless of SR.

Flying

Aerodactyl: Its 5 weaknesses are a huge hindrance. Coupled with bad defenses, and the advent of the Choice Scarf, it's no longer faster than pretty much everything out there. With Stealth Rock gone, it actually loses one of its strategies with Taunt, and since it's often used as a lead meaning that it doesn't take SR damage all that often, SR being gone may actually be a hindrance to it, since that strategy is what's raising its usage right now.

Crobat: Its type coverage is very bad, and the non-STAB moves it has have only average BP. It's very predictable since it almost always runs Hypnosis, and though it has some potentially awesome move combinations, such as Nasty Plot + Hypnosis, or Hypnosis + Brave Bird, they are illegal, which ruins his usefulness. He has a niche as the fastest sleeper in the game, but that one niche is not enough to bring him up to OU status.

Honchkrow: Though it does have 100 base HP, 52 base defenses a piece is just bad, and makes it really hard for this guy to survive. Having only 71 base Speed, and 3 common weaknesses does not help him survive or sweep any teams. It also has a pretty bad movepool, especially when it's resorting to using Steel Wing on its Choice Band/Scarf set. If it had more Speed, it would most likely be very close to OU, but it's stuck at 71 base Speed, which just isn't fast enough for people to want to use him enough to make him OU.

Ninjask: It has 5 weaknesses, all of which are pretty common, and regardless of SR, most strong neutral attacks KO him anyway (even some resisted ones do). He's also extremely predictable, since the Baton Passing set is his only really good set. He has a lot of trouble trying to sweep at all since he has awful type coverage, with only Bug/Dark/Flying moves to attack with (I'm not counting Dig). There are so many ways to destroy him and stop him from Baton Passing as well. It's very doubtful that he would care much about Stealth Rock, because he's often used to Baton Pass, and then only come back in if he absolutely has to, hence why he's often used as a lead.

Staraptor: Already has lots of trouble surviving attacks, particularly special attacks because of Intimidate. 3 very common weaknesses don't really help this either. People tend to shy away from Staraptor because its most powerful attack has massive recoil damage, which coupled with bad defenses, make it die easier than it already does. Unfortunately, a lot of fast sweepers and Choice Scarfers can outrun it as well, which doesn't help to compensate for the defenses.

Bug

Pinsir:
Outclassed by Heracross, and with bad defenses, especially on the special defensive side, it's hard to find a reason to use it in OU, besides Mold Breaker, which simply isn't enough for people to suddenly use it enough to make it OU since it only really helps to beat Weezing.

Shedinja: Has so many other problems it's not even funny. Banning SR would have no effect on this guy's usage, since it still requires way too much support to work properly. Sandstorm/Hail/Toxic Spikes/Spikes/etc. still ruin it, and there's no getting around that unfortunately.


Basically what I'm trying to say from this list, is that banning Stealth Rock is not a guarantee that these pokemon will be used more than they already are, or that they will become OU, because most of them already have huge problems that hinder them a lot more than SR do.
 
I mean there's a good chance an SR user gets killed in the process of setting it up.
Most people have stealth rock on pokemon like bronzong, blissey, swampert, and other slightly bulky pokemon who will not get ohko'd or even 2hko'd by many attacks.
In my oppinion the chance is not that good, unless the pokemon using SR is a very frail one.
 
i disagree syberia

to me sr is a much more offensive move than spikes/ts, since it punishes switches that are caused by offensive play. stall teams will often carry rs but they cannot always afford to spin sr away which takes only one turn to lay down.

with no sr stall teams have alot easier time playing around offensive threats since switches are rarely punished.
 
On the stealth rock issue, what I think you'll find if it is unbanned is that there will be a sudden influx of Pokémon@Focus sash. A particually nasty one would be Lucario. If it comes in on something like bliss, it can get a swords dance on the switch, another while whatever comes in activates its focus sash, and then it's pretty much gg, especially if it is carrying a priority move to deal with the frail, yet fast stuff. Sandstorm will do nothing due to its typing. Then there's the mulitude of potential counter-sash users to consider.
 
Yes, let us ban Stealth Rock. Is it just me or do I smell a Focus Sash rampage on its way?
Tyranitar, the yeti, Scarfers, priority moves... Its not like these are unbeatable.
So... this thread appears to be "DISCUSS EXACTLY WHAT I THINK"

Uh... so, Deoxys 2HKOs Blissey with 2 Nasty Plots passed to it, huh? Uh... that's not an argument for Uber, as anything's lethal with 2 +2 boosts passed to it.

Stealth Rock isn't "unavoidable", you can Recover off the damage and Rapi Spin negates it. It's like saying Seismic Toss is broken because it does 100 unavoidable damage per swtich-in (BUT WHAT ABOUT GHOSTS, CHRIS is countered with 'there are few ghosts' just like 'there are few rapid spinners')

Neither of these reasons fit any definition for Uber that I know of.
Can any other OU pokémon do it? Nope. Think of all the setup it requires typical BP teams to work, Deoxys-S would just take the hassle out of it easily.

The fact that there are decent options for Ghosts (Giratina, Gengar, Dusknoir, Mismagius, Spiritomb, etc.) compared to Rapid Spin, which has pokémon that aren't as well rounded or fast (Tentacruel, Starmie, Forretress, etc.) and no Uber pokémon can learn it, so again you're in a bit of a bind for that when desiring to use Ho-Oh and co.
Wait, perhaps I'm missing something here: aren't Deoxys-S and SR already going to be tested anyway? If so, why poll if they should be tested or not? Or is this supposed to be more like a general-Stark equivalent of "Order of Operations"?
I wanted to kind of discuss this stuff in the public, seeing as not everyone can post there. I figure someone might bring up some good points and increase the demand for something or something else.
Deoxys-S Is too strong. He kill almost everything, and with a little team coverage can win you a game.
well, cant we give SR "charges"?
Making it work only 3 or 5 times, then it becomes eliminated, and needed to set up again.
People then will argue, "Why can't we change something else?" Some people are going to get so technical that it just won't become pokémon anymore.

Let me make it clear again that I am encouraging the testing of the removal of Stealth Rock before we outright ban it. We can speculate all we can, but putting it to practice is a whole new experience within itself.
 
@Black Blastoise: If you really want to let me beat your bronzong to the point where it is near death before I've even brought salamence to the field, or let me beat your swampert to near death before I bring out my tyranitar (because I at least will be carrying both) be my guest. Also, bulky SR leads are weak to taunt. >.>

TS does not seem that viable to me any more though, in part because garchomp is gone. You look at the list of top threats and most of them in one way or another are immune to toxic spikes. Do you really want to take 2 turns to set it up in a game where Salamence, Gyarados, Gengar, Heatran, Lucario, Zapdos, Metagross, Bronzong, Azelf are the main players?

Not to mention that Scizor usage is bound to skyrocket with bullet punch, Cress usage is bound to skyrocket with the increased Salamence usage, and Magnezone usage has been increasing since garchomp left and is likely to go up even more?

Also, on a stall team Blissey's biggest threat to say Infernape switch ins is Thunderwave, something rendered useless by TS.
 
well i don't think anyone with a mite of intelligence would ever presume to outright ban something without testing.

this is smogon afterall

unfortunately at smogon we also like to theorymon up potential metagames!!!

people complaining about sash have a valid point, but sr ban is gonna get tested anyways pretty soon according to order of operations right?
 
Haven't we already decided that SR and Deoxys-E are suspects. Hence the reason Deoxys-E isn't allowed on the "suspect" ladder.

So unless someone starts talking about potentially new suspects, this thread is rather redundant.
 
people complaining about sash have a valid point, but sr ban is gonna get tested anyways pretty soon according to order of operations right?
I don't think so (although I wouldn't be surprised if it were tested eventually).

Haven't we already decided that SR and Deoxys-E are suspects.
nope.



really I don't see the point in testing Stealth Rock, nobody has actually given an argument suggesting that it is unhealthy for the metagame rather than just unfavorable to the way that they personally want to play the game. it would certainly be a waste of time to test it before getting all of the other suspects out of the way.
 
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