STAB Stone Edge hits both Salamence and Gyarados harder than either of the Fangs, and doesn't sacrifice coverage.
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Finding Suspects Within the Current D/P Metagame (Discussion Thread)
- Thread starter MythTrainerInfinity
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I think that's the biggest problem with Stealth Rock - lack of solid Rapid Spinners. I don't see it as overpowered move - the problem is that not many things can get rid of it effectively and it forces people to use the same pokemon, which may not fit to some teams and strategies. And good luck with taking out with standard RS users ghosts like Dusknoir or Spiritomb (ok, SD Sandslash have a chance, but who uses it ?). It makes it even harder and I'm not surprised why so many people don't even bother with that. For example Moltres would be a solid counter (maybe) in future for SkyMin, but SR kills it and it could help in balacing metagame with SkyMin. It would be nice to see more Rapid Spinners (but I know it's impossible) then banning SR, which also helps in balancing some dangerous pokemon like Gyarados, Yanmega, Salamence, etc.
About Deoxys-S... for me only troublesome set is Double-Screen Deoxys-S lead. Other sets are counterable and has solid counters like Spiritomb or Metagross. That's true that his troublesome and not always easy to counter, but it's possible to stop him without sacrifying one pokemon, which was a must in Garchomp YacheBerry case. In other words I don't care if it'll end as Uber or stay in OU. It's usable in both tiers ;).
Think about why Deoxys-S is considered by many to be Uber.
How would Areo be inferior? It is not a Salamence or Gyarados, but it is used differently. 309 attack isn't bad at all, I really think Areo's potential is really untouched because people like SR too much.
I have been using Choice Scarf Metagross for over a year now. Its an awesome revenge killer and it works a bit like Agilegross, but without the setup. People laugh at it on paper, but on the battlefield being able to strike down its counters before they kill you is pretty nice.
80 accuracy really hurts if you're in a hit or lose point in the game.
That still doesn't make Aerodactyl a realistic revenge killer for Salamence or Gyarados, though I understand that wasn't the intention of your post. ;)
Everyone just look how centralizing Stealth Rock is. EVERY fucking lead is about who can set up stealth rock the fastest. Most people either lead with a stealth rocker or a poke to counter that stealth rocker. If we got rid of this thing there will be way more diversity in leads instead of what we have now and it will let other pokes to possible see the light of day in OU.
And Deoxys no question should be banned.
And Deoxys no question should be banned.
Uh... so, you're encouraging the testing of... something already scheduled to be tested. To be honest, it seemed like your post was stating why these things are broken. Anything becomes broken with Baton Pass support! Stealth Rock isn't the worst thing in the world! Honestly, it's taken every ounce of restraint on my part not to explode in this thread, as it'd get me banned.
*reiterates "i don't think we should be trying to make any sort of game" point*
Why is this a thread? You say not to agree/disagree with Garchomp being moved to OU, yet you say Deoxys-E should be. That is hypocracy at it's worst- we've tested and confirmed that he's not Uber already. Why should we go through this again? Are we gonna redo Garchomp. UGH...
We haven't tested and confirmed anything in relation to Deoxys-E. We "voted" on it (I use the quotes because the method that was used was so subjective you can't really even call it a vote. Garchomp's method was much better, instead of having a person judge whether or not a vote was valid, we let the participants' Shoddy records be the judge instead), and ended in a virtual tie. All that proves is that Deoxys needs more testing; not that it's OU or Uber.
I'm an old pokemon player, but something of a noob to Smogon (though I've lurked for awhile).
A point I'd like to make, though, is that Stealth Rock punishes something as basic as typing without a way to counter it.
For example, T-tar is x4 weak to Fighting. Given a bulky enough spread, though, he can survive a Focus Blast and strike back.
However, there is no spread that can defend against SR. Give them more HP, they just lose more HP. There is no way to defend against it, except the poor option of Rapid Spin, which still arguably puts you at a disadvantage (they use one turn setting up SR, you have to use at least three to get rid of them; switching in your spinner, using RS, and then switching out), which can still be easily blocked.
I would not suggest just banning anything outright, myself, but I do think it should be tested. I have thought this move was unbalanced since I first heard of it.
A point I'd like to make, though, is that Stealth Rock punishes something as basic as typing without a way to counter it.
For example, T-tar is x4 weak to Fighting. Given a bulky enough spread, though, he can survive a Focus Blast and strike back.
However, there is no spread that can defend against SR. Give them more HP, they just lose more HP. There is no way to defend against it, except the poor option of Rapid Spin, which still arguably puts you at a disadvantage (they use one turn setting up SR, you have to use at least three to get rid of them; switching in your spinner, using RS, and then switching out), which can still be easily blocked.
I would not suggest just banning anything outright, myself, but I do think it should be tested. I have thought this move was unbalanced since I first heard of it.
To be flat out honest, yes I do want it banned, but it would be silly for me to go "OMG ban SR for it is broken". I am aiming to get it tested first.
This thread's intent is to increase discussion on suspects which help the analysis overall and raises awareness of these factors. It also might encourage the testing of it sooner rather than later. I like hearing what the general populous thinks and it can affect the decisions of those in power to change it.
That isn't a bad thing
well, unless you word it as "punishment" as opposed to "how the game is," which is silly. You're working within restrictions that Stealth Rock imposes upon you. Sounds like pokemon to me.
Stealth Rock is the only entry hazard that hurts Flying types. Without Stealth Rock, Flying types would have an unfair advantage as their immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes ;/
It's too bad that Stealth Rock hits other, lesser types as well though (Bug, Ice etc) but nothing that can be done about that.
Also Focus Sash (the most retarded item ever) would be broken without Stealth Rock.
It's too bad that Stealth Rock hits other, lesser types as well though (Bug, Ice etc) but nothing that can be done about that.
Also Focus Sash (the most retarded item ever) would be broken without Stealth Rock.
no one complained in RSE.
also, one layer of spikes, or sandstorm, or hail all break focus sash.
That was RSE.
Well Poison types have the advantage with Toxic Spikes, since they just absorb 'em.
Focus Sash I don't think would be broken because of priority moves and such.
Most pokémon are hurt by some sort of weather ability too... Plus if we got rid of Stealth Rock most likely Spikes would be used a lot more.
Edit: Good god you guys are fast at ninja posting.
I don't recall Flying types getting Roost in RSE..
What are you getting at here? Poison types absorb Toxic Spikes yes, but Slowbroking's point is that fliers in a SR-less metagame would be hit by neither Spikes nor Toxic Spikes and would therefore be given a greater advantage.
and with roost they can negate the stealth rock damage. still an advantage yes?
hwever, with these overpowered fliers like salamence and gyarados about the place, i can see your poiunt, i just dont think they will be uncounterable without SR damage
the problem still remains that many joint flying types in ANY tier suffer so much damage from SR that they're almost unusable.
moltres, articuno, vespiquen, scyther, masquerain, butterfree, charizard (not everyone should have to use belly drum), to mention a few
waiting for obligatory but masquerain has more problems then just SR post.
hwever, with these overpowered fliers like salamence and gyarados about the place, i can see your poiunt, i just dont think they will be uncounterable without SR damage
the problem still remains that many joint flying types in ANY tier suffer so much damage from SR that they're almost unusable.
moltres, articuno, vespiquen, scyther, masquerain, butterfree, charizard (not everyone should have to use belly drum), to mention a few
waiting for obligatory but masquerain has more problems then just SR post.
Yeah, but Rock types get the SDef boost in this gen too, so that basically lets Ttar, Rhyperior, etc. handle them easier.
Just give yourselves a chance to think within a SRless metagame and not what might first come to mind as scary or hard to fight.
So it balances out pretty much.
You just missed the point entirely. Flying types get roost in DP, not RSE. Therefore, getting rid of Stealth Rock in DP and therefore giving them immunity to all auto-switchin damage is incomparable to the RSE metagame.
what? Rhyperior is BL and Ttar doesn't exactly love switching into the crazy new options Salamence and (to a lesser degree) Gyarados were given this gen. This has got to be the worst theorymon I have ever seen
Why? Why test it? seriously, give me one good reason, someone >_>
"Why not?" Last time I checked, testing something is just that - testing it. If it ends up not being broken, then we proved it. If it does, then we've proved that too.
I honestly don't know which metagane I'll like better, and I bet a lot of other people don't either. It's one of those things I never really thought about, but there's decent arguments on both sides.
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