Gen 7 OM Competitive Discussion

dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
Gen 7 AAA has a host of good and possibly broken abilities set up to be introduced so far. I can see fluffy being potentially broken on a mon such as chansey as its effectively a fur coat and the weakness to fire type moves isn't much of a drawback as physical ones have the extra effectiveness effectively neutered by the extra defence boost and special ones can be tanked anyway because of chansey' insane bulk. Also there is that magical thing known as switching which can come in useful to allow chansey to abuse fluffy even more.

Also Stamina, on set up mons, along with disguise can give mons an extra way to beat checks and counters as if a set up sweeper is frail it can switch in on a resisted hit take advanatage of the physical defensive boost and set up, and dazzling prevents revenge killing by the multiple priority options in the meta.

Disguise can be a really good ability for suicide leads as it allows them to get up an extra layer of spikes without needing sash, although sash mold breaker will still be a really good lead combo as well for magic bounce users.

Those are my first observations at what abilities seem to stand out to me as probably viable/ very good choices as abilities for mons.
 
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Fluffy won´t be broken because it only halves the damage of contact moves. Unlike Fur Coat it doesn´t protect you from Earthquake or Stone Edge (or any physical Fire attack). The only advantage over Fur Coat are the handful of special contact moves that are weakened, too (most notable one being Grass Knot).

The potential of Disguise depends on whether it is hardcoded on Mimikyu or not (based on the animation it looks like a forme change).
 

Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
Woah it’s my 300th post! I guess that’s an accomplishment of sorts, hopefully one or two posts out of the 300 were decent. I guess I have to do shoutouts at end?

Anyway, I want to theorymon cash AAA sets for abilities that I personally deem instantly viable:



Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Spikes
- Drain Punch/Wood Hammer
- Protect/Roar/Synthesis


Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Leech Seed
- Drain Punch
- Wood Hammer

With a weakness to Gale Wings and all three -Ate Speeds, Chesnaught becomes immune to moves that are its biggest weakness in the current AAA metagame. This makes its defensive sets much harder to break, at the cost of Poison Heal/Regen recovery (Ban PH). Additionally, it may open up the possibility of running some offensive sets other than Imas's TC set and meme belly drum unburden.

Also as a general statement, Dazzling with any physically defensive mon, let’s just say Mew, is a good check all for priority, which is fairly common in AAA.

(Assuming it’s not hard coded)


Absol @ Absolite
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough


Hoopa @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast


Ariados @ Focus Sash
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sticky Web
- Toxic Spikes
- Megahorn
- Sucker Punch

So I see two main uses of Disguise and a solid third gimmick option, no Ariados isn't the gimmick. Starting with Ariados, my point isn't really Ariados, more so that as others have pointed out, hazard leads with Disguise and Focus Sash are going to be annoying af, as they can always get two layers up, although they do lose Mold Breaker's ability to break through Magic Bounce. The next best use of Disguise is a set up sweeper, especially one that can mega after losing the use of Disguise. Absol is a threat that typically has an incredibly tough time setting up due to its defenses, but Disguise successfully lets it get to +2 to become very threatening. Lastly, Trick Room may become slightly more viable. I've been running TR to some success, and Disguise can open up more opportunities, as a TR sweeper like Hoopa can freely set it up to give itself the first move next turn.


Raikou @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shadow Ball
- Volt Switch


Heatran @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Quiet Nature / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Nature Power
- Eruption / Flash Cannon
- Earth Power / Flash Cannon

This is what I’m most excited about for Gen 7. Nevermind the z-moves or Alolan forms, I want to experiment with terrains. I’m assuming that there will be similar abilities for Misty Terrain and Grassy Terrain, but let’s just look at what has been confirmed. This is adding a whole different way to teambuild, and I’m really excited about it. Raikou gets its electric attacks boosted, and can Volt Switch into Heatran, who now can take care of Water types with a speedy, boosted, Thunderbolt. Yes this Heatran is probably just a worse version of ChloroTran, but I’m just trying to make a point of how fun this will be. Since Gen7 is clearly getting more involved with terrains, I’m assuming lots of new pokemon, both new and old, will get access to Nature Power, and it will be a hell of a time. There’s also things like that Tapu Koko, who’s offering the Electric Surge ability in the first place, who might be the best Surge Surfer.


Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

For obvious reasons, I see Fluffy being the best on bulky mons that have a way to deal with Fire-type threats. Enter: another damn Crocune set. Now with essentially what is a resist against moves like Brave Bird and Close Combat, and neutralities for things like Bolt Strike and Wood Hammer, Crocune just got that more difficult to kill. The new neutrality to Fire is not a big deal, unless cases of Desolate Land or similar.


Rampardos @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Hammer Arm / Rock tomb

This is a less viable ability, but something that I think has potential. Rampardos may seem weird, but I have some reasoning for it. Innards out is a weird version of Aftermath, where you want to have as much HP as possible before you feint. For this reason, it doesn’t really play like Garbodor, and it’s not like Rough Skin Garchomp. Thus, I looked for a mon with high HP, to do the most damage, but low defenses, so it could be KOd easily. From the parameters I set, Rampardos seemed like a fun option, as it obviously has a huge offensive presence, can lead Stealth Rocks, and has a decently high HP stat (97) but will still be KOd easily due to its poor defenses (60/50).


Alakazam @ Choice Specs
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Foul Play

Braviary (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Return
- Superpower
- U-turn

Stakeout, which will probably be broken, has two main uses in my eyes. For one, it makes revenge killing extremely scary, without pursuit trapping. I just picked a random mon with a high attacking and speed stat, Alakazam, and with Stakeout it will be a deadly revenge killer. Chances are, when Alakazam comes in after a KO, it will either KO your opponent’s current mon, or the one that comes in. Example: 252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 267-315 (41.5 - 49%) [x2] = 83%-98%. Bye Chansey.

The other thing Stakeout does is allow common threats to take out their would-be checks. For example, Gale Wings Braviary, a common physical attacker, is countered by Intimidate Zapdos. Stakeout Braviary, however, not so much: -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Braviary Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 141-166 (36.8 - 43.3%) [x2] = 73.6-86.6%. That’s an easy KO the next turn. Pair Stakeout Braviary with another Gale Wings user, like Skarmory or whatever strong bird SuMo offers, and that’s a great, Laxpras-approved core.


Latias (F) @ Latiasite
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Thunderbolt
- Recover

Calm Mind sweepers like Crocune, to walls like Chansey, will all love Stamina. This Latias set actually looks pretty heat, you get a great fast, bulky, somewhat strong mon, that will get to boost its SpD, SpA, and Def, then use these boosts with Stored Power. Latiasite will make Knock Off weaker, and Koff will just give you a defense boost anyway. When you have reached the Defense boosts that you want, then you can mega and sweep. Switching this into these like Close Combat from a Lucario will be great, as you get a head start to your boosting, and now have a boost to help deal with Refrigerate.


Those were my quick, first thought sets, but I'm really hyped for Gen7 AAA, as so many opportunities should arise. Please TI have it stay permaladder, its unfortunately a fairly inactive but great meta now, but with a massive influx of good abilities, we could Make AAA Great Again.

Also banhappy laxpras will probably advocate for a Disguise and Stakeout ban somewhere down the line, and possibly even Fluffy/Stamina if I lose to them they’re broken.

Shoutout time

Not you lol
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
ok so this isnt confirmed or anything, but its something i thought about and could potentially make mimicyu a absoloute stallbreaking destroyer in metas where it gains access to setup. will disguise break under a sub? if mimicyu subs, will it be immune to attacks, and STILL have its "Safecard" making stall struggle even MORE to kill it? or will it keep the substitute in tact, which albeit less useful, is still REALLY nice for stallbreaking to avoid status. like, imagine a scenario where mimicyu subs, on a switch. and now your facing a mon with TWO "shields" meaning it can set up TWICE. even vs offense that will be a absolute terror to face.
 
I'm hoping Togedemaru isn't just another Pikachu clone in terms of viability. Every single one is in PU. I'm hoping it's typing, which as far we know has 11 resistances, gives it some sort of viability.
 
I'm hoping Togedemaru isn't just another Pikachu clone in terms of viability. Every single one is in PU. I'm hoping it's typing, which as far we know has 11 resistances, gives it some sort of viability.
It probably won't be entirely trash like the other Pikaclones because of its typing and nice ability in Iron Barbs (if it has good enough defenses to make use of it)
 
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Sorry for the double post, but CoroCoro just leaked a little while ago

Type:Null's getting an evolution with an ability that allows it to be any type depending on its held item similar to Arceus

It's probably going to break STABmons pretty hard thanks to having absurd levels of potential variety because of its ability, IF its stats aren't Uber

Alolan Muk also seems like it could be pretty cool in places like STABmons or even Tier Shift if it's low tier enough (while also not being total garbage) if it keeps Alolan Grimer's great Poison/Dark typing

EDIT: It's confirmed now
 
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Funbot28

Porque yo soy tu veneno
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Looks like SuMo will also be looking into nerfing some strong mons from Gen 6 I guess:

From Sereebi:

Edit @ 14:38: It has been indicated in the Japanese trailer that Parental Bond's second hit damage has been reduced to 25% of the first damage

Maybe Mega Kangaskhan wont be as destructive in Gen 7? Power-Up-Punch and Seismic Toss still probably makes it busted tho imo.
 

EV

Good grief.
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Multi-Attack looks like a physical Judgment. If the items that determine its type aren't exclusive to Silvally, expect to see it on basically every physical Normal type. Talonflame will appreciate a physical Judgment in particular, so it no longer has to be mixed to beat Heatran/Ttar.

There seem to be quite a few Pokemon with variable types in SM and Silvally looks like a game changer. Assuming RKS System changes its type outside of battle, it will have access to every single move ever. If RKS System doesn't show a type change unless you're battling, it will only get Normal moves. (Remember, STABmons treats new moves like TMs.)

Kommo-o, the 3rd stage Dragon/Fighting Pokemon, brings a new type combination to the table but I don't see it being particularly good. I hear its new move Clanging Scales is like a special Dragon Close Combat, not that Dragons needed any less defense with PixiSpeed running rampant. We also have a new Grass move called Trop Kick but that's all I know about it.
 
Even if Parental Bond is nerfed, if its interaction with Super Fang, Seismic Toss, Night Shade, and secondary effects are unchanged, it'll still be broken as heck in Balanced Hackmons and other metas.

If multi-attack functions like Judgement does, and its physical, we'll definitely see a new group of anti-Imposters. Hello Ice-type Multi-Attack Mega Garchomp, for example. Or Ground-type Multi-Attack Primal Groudon. Or Water if not Desolate Land. And so forth.
 
yo here's a big ass post looking at the potential viability of the stuff we've seen so far in gen 7 bh

im only looking at things that have a shot at being viable in bh here, so if youve come looking for an analysis of the competitive potential of cutiefly in gen 7 bh youll have to try elsewhere

===== Pokemon =====
Note: I'm assuming that Solgaleo and Lunala follow the pattern set by previous box art legends and have 680 BST


Solgaleo - Steel/Psychic

Steel/Psychic is a good but still somewhat flawed defensive typing, and an extremely awkward offensive typing. Steel/Psychic has a lot of resists, but also weaknesses to some of the most common attacking types in the tier, and the ground weakness in particular is very awkward considering the fact that PDon and Perfect Zygarde will likely run the metagame in its early stages, meaning that Solgaleo may be more of a liability defensively at times. Meta Metagross has proven that not even fantastic offensive stats can salvage Steel/Psychic as an offensive typing -- it hits almost nothing relevant super effectively, and Steel-types can come in very freely. Speaking of, Solgaleo will have to compete for a teamslot with MMetagross.


Lunala - Ghost/Psychic

As much as I'd love for Lunala to be good, the simple fact of the matter is that Ghost/Psychic is just a really bad typing. The 4x weakness to Dark is crippling in a meta so infested with Knock Off, and it doesn't really have any notable resists to make up for it. Ghost and Psychic don't really have any offensive synergy either, and with its STABs alone Lunala will really struggle to get past common walls, and will be completely reliant on coverage moves to get past Dark-types. A Judgment sweeper set with Spooky Plate could be a decent option, but even then it's facing competition from Mega Gengar. Without knowing its stats it's hard to know how well Lunala will do, but with that typing it's going to really struggle to find a niche.

Lunala @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Shell Smash / Quiver Dance
- Pursuit / Psystrike


Magearna - Steel/Fairy

Even though it's most likely a 600 BST event legendary, Magearna may be able to make up for that mediocre BST with its fantastic defensive typing. Steel/Fairy just has so many resists, and Magearna sets itself from other Steels with its neutrality to fighting and resistance to Dark, which let it take on mons like MM2X and MTTar better than other Steels -- assuming its defensive stats are at least decent, that is. It has useful STABs too -- Fairy STAB is always great, and being a Steel-type that can hit every common -ate user super effectively with its STABs is very neat.

Magearna @ Leftovers / Safety Goggles
Ability: Flash Fire / Magic Bounce / Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Flash Cannon
- Roost
- Stealth Rock / Defog / possibilities are endless

cant rly make ev spreads for a mon that u dont even know the stats of ://


Tapu Koko - Electric/Fairy

I have no clue what Tapu Koko's stats will look like, but its got a pretty cool typing I guess, lots of neat resists and hits a lot of stuff SE with its STAB. This mon is probably a 600 BST legendary tho so idk.


Silvally - Normal

This thing's some kind of Arceus clone, so there's a good shot that it'll have some pretty ballin stats I reckon. As a Normal-type it'll really struggle to find a niche amongst Arceus, Slaking and Regigigas, but if its other typed forms are usable independently then that could be neat, I've been wanting a good BH Grass-type for ages. Unlikely seeing as Arceus' forms aren't, but you never know.


Complete Zygarde - Dragon/Ground

This is undoubtedly the most exciting of the new Pokemon revealed so far. Dragon/Ground is a fantastic offensive typing, and also sports quite a few notable resists to ensure that Complete Zygarde can provide defensive synergy too. Its reveal trailer showed that its base HP stat is probably around 180, indicating that it will probably have a ton of bulk, and I have no doubt that it will have hugely buffed attacking stats from base form Zygarde too. I think there's a very good chance that this could be another ~780 BST mon, and if so then I would not be surprised to see a quickban/suspect early on in SM BH.

Zygarde-Complete @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Core Enforcer (if this is actually a good move) / Dragon Claw
- Thousand Arrows
- Precipice Blades
- Trick / U-turn

adaptability scarfchomp 2: electric boogaloo

Zygarde-Complete @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil / Shift Gear
- Thousand Arrows
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt

beating stall 101

===== Abilities =====

Comatose - The Pokémon can only be affected by the Sleep status condition.

Could have a niche as a way for Pokemon that can't run Poison Heal or want to run a different item to absorb status, but the fact that it doesn't prevent sleep makes it kinda iffy and probably outclassed by Magic Bounce or whatever.

Stakeout - Deals twice the normal damage if the opponent just switched into battle.

This is a really cool ability that could make for some devastating wallbreaker sets. Obviously best on Pokemon that force lots of switches, this could be very potent for luring.


Groudon-Primal @ Choice Band
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- V-create
- Precipice Blades
- Trick

+2 (stakeout boost) 252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 523-616 (103.7 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Electric Surge - Activates Electric Terrain when being sent out.

Another very interesting ability. The main benefit of Electric Terrain in a BH context is the immunity to sleep it provides, and Electric Surge has quite a few advantages over other means of blocking sleep -- it isn't bypassed by Mold Breaker, can't be knocked off like Safety Goggles, and doesn't require a turn to turn on like Poison Heal, meaning an Electric Terrain Pokemon can be switched directly into a sleep move on turn 1. Overall however, Electric Surge faces huge competition from Poison Heal, and I feel that the most viable users of the ability will be those that can take advantage of the second effect of Electric Terrain -- the 50% boost to the power of Electric-type moves. Unfortunately the only really BH viable Electric-types are Zekrom and maybe MAmpharos, so your options are kinda limited ://


Zekrom @ Life Orb / leftovers or goggles or something if ur a weenie
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bolt Strike
- Dragon Claw
- Roost
- literally whatever

+1 (elec terrain boost) 252+ Atk Life Orb Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 273-321 (75 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Brutal wallbreaker, flying check, and sleep absorber all in one!

Dazzling / Queenly Majesty - Prevents moves with an increased Speed Priority from hitting.

This ability has a lot of potential on frail offensive Pokemon to allow them to avoid being blown away by powerful -ate priority, but by taking up their ability slot it likely lessens their damage output and thus their ability to get through bulky mons. If Dazzling shuts down Prankster then it will be especially valuable on set-up sweepers, letting them avoid things like Prankster Topsy-Turvy. Definitely one to look out for.


Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Life Orb / Fist Plate
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Substitute / Taunt / Spore

Disguise - Allows the Pokémon to escape damage from an enemy’s attack just one time, and then its appearance changes.

If this isn't hardcoded to Mimikyu then it has a ton of potential. It's a completely free turn of set up, and if combined with a sash you can potentially get two turns for free, which is pretty wild. Additionally, if the disguise remains intact it can give a frail Pokemon a one-time immunity to priority, helping them to sweep. The best Pokemon to take advantage of Disguise are probably frail set-up sweepers and hazard leads -- that is, assuming it isn't hardcoded to Mimikyu, which is very feasible.


Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Sludge Bomb

Wimp Out - When this Pokémon's HP drops below half in battle, it will run away or swap out for another Pokémon.

If this ability lets you choose which Pokemon switches in, then it might be cool on a Trick Room setter or something, but it's a bit iffy.

Dancer - If another Pokémon in the field uses a dancing move, then the Pokémon will be able to use the same move immediately afterward.

If some Quiver Dance set starts taking over the metagame, this could see some niche use as a counter to it -- otherwise, this is very situational and likely won't see much play.

Surge Surfer - Doubles Speed inside Electric Terrain

If there's a way to make Electric Terrain last more than 5 turns, then I can see potential for a cool Electric Terrain team that makes use of this ability.

===== Moves =====

Accelerock - Rock - Physical - Increased Priority

Assuming this is just a Quick Attack clone, then it might be cool on something like Mega TTar to bop Mega Rayquaza and the like.

Core Enforcer - Dragon - Physical - Can remove abilities of a Pokémon if the Pokémon it hits has already moved this turn

Without knowing the base power of this it's hard to say how good this will be, but removing abilities is always good, particularly in a meta like BH where so many Pokemon are reliant on them.

Dragon Hammer - Physical - Dragon

Again, without knowing the base power of this it's impossible to know how good it will be, but if it's high enough then this could replace Dragon Claw as the physical Dragon move of choice.

Fleur Cannon - Fairy (probably) - Special - Drops users SpA by 2 stages

I'm assuming this is just a Fairy-type Draco Meteor clone, and if that's so then it'll be a very useful option on Contrary sets, giving them another option to hit Dragon and Dark-types.


Diancie-Mega @ Focus Sash
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- King's Shield
- Fleur Cannon
- V-create
- something

Moongeist Beam - Ghost - Special - This move ignores effects of the opponent's abilities
Sunsteel Strike - Steel - Physical? - This move ignores effects of the opponent's abilities

These two moves are very interesting, and I think have the potential to really shake up the metagame. They presumably break through Unaware which could make them neat options on set-up mons, but the main reason that they're so cool is that they go through Shedinja's Sturdy. This gives us for the first time a move that KOes Shedinja that Shed can't Baton Pass out of, which is a really big deal. It makes Shedinja far less safe overall, as it can't safely scout for Moongeist Beam and Sunsteel Strike the way it can Leech Seed or Infestation, and unlike Mold Breaker, these moves don't come with a warning message. Any Pokemon that used to run Infestation or whatever just to hit Shedinja now gets a straight upgrade with one of these two moves, and these moves will force players to play more carefully with their Shedinja, because it can't just safely click Baton Pass or whatever to scout for moves that can hurt it, lest it just get bopped by Moongeist Beam or Sunsteel Strike.

Multi Attack - Normal - Physical? - This move's type changes depending on the Pokémon's hold item

If this is a physical Judgment, then it'll open up so many new options for anti-impostering on physical attackers. Ice Multi Attack Mega Rayquaza anyone? If the base power is 100 like Judgment then it will actually be the superior physical move for many types -- I certainly appreciate us finally getting a decent physical Ghost-type move.

=====Other Shit=====

Z Moves

If these can be hacked to be usable without the item then they'll absolutely need to be banned, but otherwise it's really hard to know how good these will be without knowing how powerful they are. Being forced to run an otherwise useless item is a pretty huge drawback, but if they're strong enough then they could be useful stallbreaking tools. As well, they'll be cool for anti-Imposter sets, as the Imposter won't have the Z Crystal to use your Z move. Anyone else looking forward to Normal Z Move -ate?

Parental Bond nerf

If you hadn't heard the news, the second hit of Parental Bond is now only 1.25x as powerful as the first hit, which nerfs PBond pretty significantly. However, the main reason that PBond was banned in XY was the ShadeFang set, which 2HKO'd literally everything that wasn't named Giratina, and unless PBond's interaction with set damage moves has changed too, I can't imagine it being any less broken.

=====

I'm pretty pumped for SM BH tbh, so much cool new stuff to try out :0
 
A lot of people are writing off Lunala, and fair enough it may well turn out to be unviable, but it does still have some good perks. Thanks to Moongeist Beam it could potentially one shot Lugia - even the mighty Primal Groudon can't do that after a Swords Dance. Focus Blast is a strong possibility as well. Due to its lunar connotations, it likely will learn Moonblast (Cresselia does after all), so it will most likely still have a reliable way of hitting Yveltal and Darkrai. Its typing can also let it check Extreme Killer Arceus somewhat, although Ghost Arceus does that job better. I see Solgaleo being slow and bulky, and Lunala being fast and frail. In the trailer Solgaleo had 212 HP at level 50, so assuming no EVs, that puts its base HP somewhere between 137 and 152.
 
Electric Surge - Activates Electric Terrain when being sent out.

<snip> Unfortunately the only really BH viable Electric-types are Zekrom and maybe MAmpharos, so your options are kinda limited

Tapu Koko, who you just mentioned? Mega-Manectric would also use it quite well, being the fastest Electric type and, as long as Protean remains banned, its toes are not being stepped on by Mewtwo's. The 50% boost is really just the thing Mega-Mane needs to sweep reliably, especially if someone else can set-it up to do a LO Sheer Force Thunderbolt.

252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 128 SpD Registeel: 145-172 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 128 SpD Registeel: 247-292 (67.8 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Note I had to set Thunderbolt to BP 135 to simulate the damage, since the calculator does not boost Electric-type moves with Electric terrain. So, the numbers might be a little off.



A lot of people are writing off Lunala, and fair enough it may well turn out to be unviable, but it does still have some good perks. Thanks to Moongeist Beam it could potentially one shot Lugia -
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball (BP 100) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lugia: 276-326 (66.3 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Not likely without boosts or items, especially since I was using Mega-Gengar's Sp. A there, which Lunala likely won't have. Still might, but I suspect it'll have have 150 Sp. A tops.
 
While it may not have the special attack that mgengar has it would be ignoring multiscale(which admittingly I'm unsure if that calc involves no multiscale) Dazzling and queenly majesty are going to severely change the metagame. Rip in piece fake-ate-speed. And I'm really hoping disguise is hardcoded because damn that would be annoying
 
The Wimp Out ability could be interesting, as Pokemon will switch out when they're below half health. Also, i'm looking forward to seeing how people will execute z-moves and when they will. I also get a feeling that Silvally will be a bit more accessible, meaning that I don't think it will be in the Uber tier, so that way more people will be able to use it. Probably OU, maybe not. If it is OU, then it could shake things up a bit.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
yo here's a big ass post looking at the potential viability of the stuff we've seen so far in gen 7 bh

im only looking at things that have a shot at being viable in bh here, so if youve come looking for an analysis of the competitive potential of cutiefly in gen 7 bh youll have to try elsewhere

===== Pokemon =====
Note: I'm assuming that Solgaleo and Lunala follow the pattern set by previous box art legends and have 680 BST


Solgaleo - Steel/Psychic

Steel/Psychic is a good but still somewhat flawed defensive typing, and an extremely awkward offensive typing. Steel/Psychic has a lot of resists, but also weaknesses to some of the most common attacking types in the tier, and the ground weakness in particular is very awkward considering the fact that PDon and Perfect Zygarde will likely run the metagame in its early stages, meaning that Solgaleo may be more of a liability defensively at times. Meta Metagross has proven that not even fantastic offensive stats can salvage Steel/Psychic as an offensive typing -- it hits almost nothing relevant super effectively, and Steel-types can come in very freely. Speaking of, Solgaleo will have to compete for a teamslot with MMetagross.


Lunala - Ghost/Psychic

As much as I'd love for Lunala to be good, the simple fact of the matter is that Ghost/Psychic is just a really bad typing. The 4x weakness to Dark is crippling in a meta so infested with Knock Off, and it doesn't really have any notable resists to make up for it. Ghost and Psychic don't really have any offensive synergy either, and with its STABs alone Lunala will really struggle to get past common walls, and will be completely reliant on coverage moves to get past Dark-types. A Judgment sweeper set with Spooky Plate could be a decent option, but even then it's facing competition from Mega Gengar. Without knowing its stats it's hard to know how well Lunala will do, but with that typing it's going to really struggle to find a niche.

Lunala @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Shell Smash / Quiver Dance
- Pursuit / Psystrike


Magearna - Steel/Fairy

Even though it's most likely a 600 BST event legendary, Magearna may be able to make up for that mediocre BST with its fantastic defensive typing. Steel/Fairy just has so many resists, and Magearna sets itself from other Steels with its neutrality to fighting and resistance to Dark, which let it take on mons like MM2X and MTTar better than other Steels -- assuming its defensive stats are at least decent, that is. It has useful STABs too -- Fairy STAB is always great, and being a Steel-type that can hit every common -ate user super effectively with its STABs is very neat.

Magearna @ Leftovers / Safety Goggles
Ability: Flash Fire / Magic Bounce / Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Flash Cannon
- Roost
- Stealth Rock / Defog / possibilities are endless

cant rly make ev spreads for a mon that u dont even know the stats of ://


Tapu Koko - Electric/Fairy

I have no clue what Tapu Koko's stats will look like, but its got a pretty cool typing I guess, lots of neat resists and hits a lot of stuff SE with its STAB. This mon is probably a 600 BST legendary tho so idk.


Silvally - Normal

This thing's some kind of Arceus clone, so there's a good shot that it'll have some pretty ballin stats I reckon. As a Normal-type it'll really struggle to find a niche amongst Arceus, Slaking and Regigigas, but if its other typed forms are usable independently then that could be neat, I've been wanting a good BH Grass-type for ages. Unlikely seeing as Arceus' forms aren't, but you never know.


Complete Zygarde - Dragon/Ground

This is undoubtedly the most exciting of the new Pokemon revealed so far. Dragon/Ground is a fantastic offensive typing, and also sports quite a few notable resists to ensure that Complete Zygarde can provide defensive synergy too. Its reveal trailer showed that its base HP stat is probably around 180, indicating that it will probably have a ton of bulk, and I have no doubt that it will have hugely buffed attacking stats from base form Zygarde too. I think there's a very good chance that this could be another ~780 BST mon, and if so then I would not be surprised to see a quickban/suspect early on in SM BH.

Zygarde-Complete @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Core Enforcer (if this is actually a good move) / Dragon Claw
- Thousand Arrows
- Precipice Blades
- Trick / U-turn

adaptability scarfchomp 2: electric boogaloo

Zygarde-Complete @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil / Shift Gear
- Thousand Arrows
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt

beating stall 101

===== Abilities =====

Comatose - The Pokémon can only be affected by the Sleep status condition.

Could have a niche as a way for Pokemon that can't run Poison Heal or want to run a different item to absorb status, but the fact that it doesn't prevent sleep makes it kinda iffy and probably outclassed by Magic Bounce or whatever.

Stakeout - Deals twice the normal damage if the opponent just switched into battle.

This is a really cool ability that could make for some devastating wallbreaker sets. Obviously best on Pokemon that force lots of switches, this could be very potent for luring.


Groudon-Primal @ Choice Band
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- V-create
- Precipice Blades
- Trick

+2 (stakeout boost) 252+ Atk Choice Band Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 523-616 (103.7 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Electric Surge - Activates Electric Terrain when being sent out.

Another very interesting ability. The main benefit of Electric Terrain in a BH context is the immunity to sleep it provides, and Electric Surge has quite a few advantages over other means of blocking sleep -- it isn't bypassed by Mold Breaker, can't be knocked off like Safety Goggles, and doesn't require a turn to turn on like Poison Heal, meaning an Electric Terrain Pokemon can be switched directly into a sleep move on turn 1. Overall however, Electric Surge faces huge competition from Poison Heal, and I feel that the most viable users of the ability will be those that can take advantage of the second effect of Electric Terrain -- the 50% boost to the power of Electric-type moves. Unfortunately the only really BH viable Electric-types are Zekrom and maybe MAmpharos, so your options are kinda limited ://


Zekrom @ Life Orb / leftovers or goggles or something if ur a weenie
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bolt Strike
- Dragon Claw
- Roost
- literally whatever

+1 (elec terrain boost) 252+ Atk Life Orb Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 273-321 (75 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Brutal wallbreaker, flying check, and sleep absorber all in one!

Dazzling / Queenly Majesty - Prevents moves with an increased Speed Priority from hitting.

This ability has a lot of potential on frail offensive Pokemon to allow them to avoid being blown away by powerful -ate priority, but by taking up their ability slot it likely lessens their damage output and thus their ability to get through bulky mons. If Dazzling shuts down Prankster then it will be especially valuable on set-up sweepers, letting them avoid things like Prankster Topsy-Turvy. Definitely one to look out for.


Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Life Orb / Fist Plate
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Substitute / Taunt / Spore

Disguise - Allows the Pokémon to escape damage from an enemy’s attack just one time, and then its appearance changes.

If this isn't hardcoded to Mimikyu then it has a ton of potential. It's a completely free turn of set up, and if combined with a sash you can potentially get two turns for free, which is pretty wild. Additionally, if the disguise remains intact it can give a frail Pokemon a one-time immunity to priority, helping them to sweep. The best Pokemon to take advantage of Disguise are probably frail set-up sweepers and hazard leads -- that is, assuming it isn't hardcoded to Mimikyu, which is very feasible.


Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Sludge Bomb

Wimp Out - When this Pokémon's HP drops below half in battle, it will run away or swap out for another Pokémon.

If this ability lets you choose which Pokemon switches in, then it might be cool on a Trick Room setter or something, but it's a bit iffy.

Dancer - If another Pokémon in the field uses a dancing move, then the Pokémon will be able to use the same move immediately afterward.

If some Quiver Dance set starts taking over the metagame, this could see some niche use as a counter to it -- otherwise, this is very situational and likely won't see much play.

Surge Surfer - Doubles Speed inside Electric Terrain

If there's a way to make Electric Terrain last more than 5 turns, then I can see potential for a cool Electric Terrain team that makes use of this ability.

===== Moves =====

Accelerock - Rock - Physical - Increased Priority

Assuming this is just a Quick Attack clone, then it might be cool on something like Mega TTar to bop Mega Rayquaza and the like.

Core Enforcer - Dragon - Physical - Can remove abilities of a Pokémon if the Pokémon it hits has already moved this turn

Without knowing the base power of this it's hard to say how good this will be, but removing abilities is always good, particularly in a meta like BH where so many Pokemon are reliant on them.

Dragon Hammer - Physical - Dragon

Again, without knowing the base power of this it's impossible to know how good it will be, but if it's high enough then this could replace Dragon Claw as the physical Dragon move of choice.

Fleur Cannon - Fairy (probably) - Special - Drops users SpA by 2 stages

I'm assuming this is just a Fairy-type Draco Meteor clone, and if that's so then it'll be a very useful option on Contrary sets, giving them another option to hit Dragon and Dark-types.


Diancie-Mega @ Focus Sash
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- King's Shield
- Fleur Cannon
- V-create
- something

Moongeist Beam - Ghost - Special - This move ignores effects of the opponent's abilities
Sunsteel Strike - Steel - Physical? - This move ignores effects of the opponent's abilities

These two moves are very interesting, and I think have the potential to really shake up the metagame. They presumably break through Unaware which could make them neat options on set-up mons, but the main reason that they're so cool is that they go through Shedinja's Sturdy. This gives us for the first time a move that KOes Shedinja that Shed can't Baton Pass out of, which is a really big deal. It makes Shedinja far less safe overall, as it can't safely scout for Moongeist Beam and Sunsteel Strike the way it can Leech Seed or Infestation, and unlike Mold Breaker, these moves don't come with a warning message. Any Pokemon that used to run Infestation or whatever just to hit Shedinja now gets a straight upgrade with one of these two moves, and these moves will force players to play more carefully with their Shedinja, because it can't just safely click Baton Pass or whatever to scout for moves that can hurt it, lest it just get bopped by Moongeist Beam or Sunsteel Strike.

Multi Attack - Normal - Physical? - This move's type changes depending on the Pokémon's hold item

If this is a physical Judgment, then it'll open up so many new options for anti-impostering on physical attackers. Ice Multi Attack Mega Rayquaza anyone? If the base power is 100 like Judgment then it will actually be the superior physical move for many types -- I certainly appreciate us finally getting a decent physical Ghost-type move.

=====Other Shit=====

Z Moves

If these can be hacked to be usable without the item then they'll absolutely need to be banned, but otherwise it's really hard to know how good these will be without knowing how powerful they are. Being forced to run an otherwise useless item is a pretty huge drawback, but if they're strong enough then they could be useful stallbreaking tools. As well, they'll be cool for anti-Imposter sets, as the Imposter won't have the Z Crystal to use your Z move. Anyone else looking forward to Normal Z Move -ate?

Parental Bond nerf

If you hadn't heard the news, the second hit of Parental Bond is now only 1.25x as powerful as the first hit, which nerfs PBond pretty significantly. However, the main reason that PBond was banned in XY was the ShadeFang set, which 2HKO'd literally everything that wasn't named Giratina, and unless PBond's interaction with set damage moves has changed too, I can't imagine it being any less broken.

=====

I'm pretty pumped for SM BH tbh, so much cool new stuff to try out :0
just saying, but you said zygardes hp is confirmed around 180..thats actually technically false. its been confirmed that (at the time) its hp doubled to base 216 via calcing zygarde 50%'s hp (which was 0 iv/ev's iirc). thus, idk if its going to be a 780 base stat mon, because even if NONE of its other stats are effected, its still 708 bst. which is rediculously high for a one stat change. its not "around" its definitely 216 and enless its nerfed, we only have to hope perfect zygardes hp is the only thing thats doubled. which judging by its lore, and the deductions, is more plausable that everything is doubled then it is not. not CONFIRMED, but the "Trend" is there. not to mention gamefreak has never done something as insane as giving a mon over 100 base stat increase let alone on ONE stat. i have no idea what the hell is going on with gamefreak, but i think they lost their marbles after seeing mega ray, and seriously said to eachother "PEOPLE WANT A STRONGER ZYGARDE? LETS DOUBLE ITS STATS BOYS. RIP IN PEACE" like, id love to be proven wrong, but nomatter what happens zygarde will be broken. like...its a fucking 216/121/95 base stat monster...its bulk rivals blissey specially, and triples skarms bulk! AND THATS IF IT GETS NO BULK INCREASE. dont feel like using skarmbliss? JUST USE GODDAMN OPTIMUS PRIME HERE. okay, im starting to lose composure here...but seriously...what was gamefreak smoking when they made this thing...
 

drampa's grandpa

#sobblesquad
is a Pre-Contributor
Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate (or the equivalent item for multiattack) / Focus Sash / Something (in the way she moves)
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Judgment / Moongeist Beam
- Secret Sword
- Filler (Leech Seed?)

Banette-Mega @ Spooky Plate (or whatever item) / Focus Sash / I Don't Even Know
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Multi Attack
- Shell Smash
- Close Combat
- Filler (Leech Seed?)

So I think these two (incomplete and not perfected) sets are going to be great Dazzling sets. Because Priority is dead as a revenger, Shell Smash Dazzling sweepers will be deadly, and ghost types that run judgement + fighting coverage are also imposterproof. I slashed Moongeist beam For Megagar but I honestly think its better just running Leech Seed or something for Shedinja and retaining its perfect imposterproofiness. Bannette-Mega is a little iffy, I was considering Giratina-O, but Banette has higher attack and at +2 its lower speed doesn't matter much anyway.

EDIT: Disguise seems a nice way to counter this sort of shizzle however, but I (personally) suspect that will be hardcoded to mimikyu or however u spell it so ha.
 
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From Serebii (will be edited with new info if I can stay awake):

@ 02:33: Water Shuriken is now Special
@ 02:37: Battle Bond also boosts Water Shuriken's strength
@ 02:46: Z Move Power varies depending on the base move. Gigavolt Havoc from Thunderbolt is 175 base power

Edit: Yeah, that's it for now I think
 
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Funbot28

Porque yo soy tu veneno
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ash Greninja's stats are also confirmed to be 72\145\67\153\71\132

Gamefreak got smart this time around so this is probably all that could be dumped at this point.

Edit: I was totally wrong, it seems like whole dex was leaked, but we still don't know stats and movepools
 
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Don't forget this beautiful creature:



Jokes aside, I'll assume that Greninja-A as a standalone Pokemon will be possible with hacking, as is the case with other alternate forms. I don't know how big an impact it will have on BH, considering its offensive statline is strictly worse than Deoxys-A and from what I can tell, that isn't very usable either. Maybe the boost to Water Shuriken that Battle Bond gives will be significant enough to use it? The bigger news is Water Shuriken changing to Special: Sketchmons Keldeo and others (Nasty Plot Slowking?) will appreciate priority, and any meta that has consistent checks to "priority spam" will have to deal with the potential of special damage (Vacuum Wave typically isn't widely used in a lot of metas: Got Talent? is the only one I can think of), which will shake things up for sure.

There's still a lot we don't know about Z moves, so I won't comment too much on them, but the fact that there seems to be custom tuning depending on each base move is a big deal. Nuzzle gives Gigavolt Havoc 100 bp and changes the damage to physical, which Nuzzle isn't, so potentially there are as many custom Z moves as there are actual moves. This means your choice of base move is especially important, and I wonder if sets will contain normally suboptimal picks (Thunder > Thunderbolt, for instance) just to get a better Z move.
 
Yeah, custom Z moves sounds very interesting.
Now, let's just wait to know more about these moves, do they keep their inner secondary effects ? I hope so.
That would make some unused mons playable, hyped for physical Boomburst Swellow to become a thing.
Also Talonflame will probably get the priority on flying Z moves, that sounds amazing.

And Psychic Terrain sounds like the end of the Extremespeed meta in Mix and Mega, RIP.
 

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