Gen Wun (4/29: Final Quick Bans)

[Jajoken]

GEN WUN
(Approved by The Immortal and Eevee General)

[Source]
​

I know it, you know it -- everyone knows it. After the first generation of Pokemon, Game Freak really just ran out of ideas, adding hundreds of worthless new mechanics over the years. Held items, abilities, stat changes, new types, natures, alternate forms and Mega Evolution...it makes me sick just typing this. Let's go back to a more pure era, where Psychic types were irrevocably broken, Special was a single stat, and Explosion, Amnesia, Hyper Beam and trapping moves were all top-tier. But why leave out all the new Pokemon? Let's show all these Gen 6 kids what the real Pokemon experience is -- this is Gen Wun.

This project is more focused on re-creation of Generation 1 with all of the available Pokemon, so balance isn't a big concern. Gen 1 was horribly unbalanced, and that was the charm of it. It's all for fun, so don't take it so seriously! However, I'll eventually make a banlist and possibly a separate Ubers mode. My plan is to make one of these "de-makes" for each generation, but before any of that, we need to start at the beginning...

General Changelist:

- Uses the original type chart, moves and game mechanics from RBY (No items, abilities, etc.) like the Showdown RBY ladder
- Gen 1 Pokemon have their original stats and moveset (EDIT: Plus any Gen 1 moves they can use in Gen 6 but can't in Gen 1)
- EDIT: Gen 2-6 Pokemon have their Special stat chosen between their Special Attack and Defense on a case-by-case basis
- Gen 2-6 Pokemon can only use moves they learn in Gen 6 that also exist in Gen 1
- Some moveset additions via TM have been made for Generation 2-6 Pokemon on a case-by-case basis
- Dark, Steel and Fairy types are replaced with another typing on a case-by-case basis
- In-battle form changes that require an item, etc. have been separated into distinct Pokemon
- Because no form changes mechanics exist, you can use multiple forms or megas without violating any clauses or rules

Type changes:

Hide

Dark:
Gyarados-M -> Water/Flying
Umbreon: Dark -> Ghost
Murkrow: Dark/Flying -> Normal/Flying
Honchkrow: Dark/Flying -> Fighting/Flying
Sneasel/Weavile: Dark/Ice -> Fighting/Ice
Houndour/Houndoom/Houndoom-M: Dark/Fire -> Fire
Tyranitar/Tyranitar-M: Rock/Dark -> Rock/Ground
Poochyena/Mightyena: Dark -> Normal
Nuzleaf/Shiftry: Grass/Dark -> Grass
Sableye/Sableye-M: Dark/Ghost -> Ghost
Carvanha/Sharpedo/Sharpedo-M: Water/Dark -> Water
Cacturne: Grass/Dark -> Grass/Ghost
Crawdaunt: Water/Dark -> Water
Absol/Absol-M: Dark -> Psychic
Stunky/Skuntank: Poison/Dark -> Poison
Spiritomb: Ghost/Dark -> Ghost/Psychic
Drapion: Poison/Dark -> Poison/Bug
Darkrai: Dark -> Ghost
Purrloin/Liepard: Dark -> Normal
Sandile/Krokorok/Krookodile: Ground/Dark -> Ground
Scraggy/Scrafty: Dark/Fighting -> Fighting
Zorua/Zoroark: Dark -> Normal
Pawniard/Bisharp: Dark/Steel -> Fighting
Vullaby/Mandibuzz: Dark/Flying -> Normal/Flying
Deino/Zweilous/Hydreigon: Dark/Dragon -> Ghost/Dragon
Greninja: Water/Dark -> Water/Fighting
Pangoro: Fighting/Dark -> Fighting
Inkay/Malamar: Dark/Psychic -> Water/Psychic
Yveltal: Dark/Flying -> Ghost/Flying
Hoopa-U: Psychic/Dark -> Psychic/Ghost

Steel:
Magnemite/Magneton/Magnezone: Electric/Steel -> Electric
Forretress: Bug/Steel -> Bug/Rock
Steelix/Steelix-M: Steel/Ground -> Rock/Ground
Scizor/Scizor-M: Bug/Steel -> Bug/Flying
Skarmory: Steel/Flying -> Normal/Flying
Mawile/Mawile-M: Steel/Fairy -> Normal
Aron/Lairon/Aggron: Steel/Rock -> Rock
Aggron-M: Steel -> Rock
Bledum/Metang/Metagross/Metagross-M: Steel/Psychic -> Rock/Psychic
Registeel: Steel -> Rock
Jirachi: Steel/Psychic -> Psychic
Empoleon: Water/Steel -> Water
Shieldon/Bastidon: Rock/Steel -> Rock
Wormadam-T: Bug/Steel -> Bug/Poison
Bronzor/Bronzong: Steel/Psychic -> Psychic
Lucario: Fighting/Steel -> Fighting
Probopass: Rock/Steel -> Rock/Electric
Dialga: Steel/Dragon -> Psychic/Dragon
Heatran: Fire/Steel -> Fire/Rock
Excadrill: Ground/Steel -> Ground
Escavalier: Bug/Steel -> Bug/Fighting
Ferroseed/Ferrothron: Grass/Steel -> Grass/Rock
Klink/Klang/Klinklang: Steel -> Electric
Pawniard/Bisharp: Dark/Steel -> Fighting
Durant: Bug/Steel -> Bug
Cobalion: Steel/Fighting -> Normal/Fighting
Genesect: Bug/Steel -> Bug/Electric
Honedge/Doublade/Aegislash/Aegislash-B: Steel/Ghost -> Fighting/Ghost
Klefki: Steel/Fairy -> Psychic

Fairy:
Cleffa/Clefairy/Clefable: Fairy -> Normal
Igglybuff/Jigglypuff/Wigglytuff: Normal/Fairy -> Normal
Mime Jr./Mr. Mime: Psychic/Fairy -> Psychic
Togepi: Fairy -> Normal
Togetic/Togekiss: Fairy/Flying -> Normal/Flying
Marill/Azumarill: Water/Fairy -> Water
Snubbull/Granbull: Fairy -> Normal
Raltz/Kirlia/Gardevoir/Gardevoir-M: Psychic/Fairy -> Psychic
Azurill: Fairy -> Normal
Mawile/Mawile-M: Steel/Fairy -> Normal
Altaria-M: Dragon/Fairy -> Dragon/Flying
Audino-M: Normal/Fairy -> Normal
Cottonee/Whimsicott: Grass/Fairy -> Grass
Flabebe/Floette/Florges/Floette-E: Fairy -> Grass
Spritzee/Aromatisse: Fairy -> Normal/Flying
Swirlix/Slurpuff: Fairy -> Normal
Sylveon: Fairy -> Normal
Dedenne: Electric/Fairy -> Electric
Carbink: Rock/Fairy -> Rock
Klefki: Steel/Fairy -> Psychic
Xerneas: Fairy -> Grass/Psychic
Diance/Diance-M: Rock/Fairy -> Rock/Psychic

Separated Forms:

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All Mega Pokemon
Castform Sunny, Rainy, Snowy
Kyogre Primal
Groudon Primal
Cherim Sunshine (Aesthetic)
Giratina Origin
Arceus Types (other than Dark, Steel, Fairy)
Darmanatan Zen
Meloetta Pirouette
Keldeo Resolute (Aesthetic)
Genesect Shock, Douse, Burn, Chill (Aesthetic)
Aegislash Blade

Removed Pokemon:

Hide

Arceus Dark
Arceus Steel
Arceus Fairy

Special Stat Changes:

Hide

[Link]

As, after Gen 1, a Pokemon's Special Attack OR Special Defense was determined by its Special, I've done the reverse process here, picking one of their current stats to represent their overall Special.

TM Additions:

Hide

[Link]

This spreadsheet contains all Gen 2-6 Pokemon and all relevant TMs/HMs from Gen 1. I've cut TMs that also exist in Gen 6, as well as moves that are either completely outclassed by something else and can be learned by the same group of Pokemon (Water Gun) and Teleport. I kept some outclassed moves, like Bubblebeam and Selfdestruct, just because Pokemon that can't learn Surf or Explosion could be able to learn one of these (in Gen 1, this is true for Marowak and Snorlax, respectively).

Natural movesets in Gen 6 trump this list -- a Pokemon can use any move it can use in Gen 6 provided it exists in Gen 1, even if it is marked as unlearnable on this list due to potential judgement errors.

(Note: Alternate forms have the same TMs as the base form)

Move Conversions:

Hide

The following moves have identical functionality, and as such, will be converted into its Gen 1 counterpart. Any Pokemon that can learn the moves on the left in Gen 6 can learn the move on the right.

Slack Off, Milk Drink, Heal Order -> Recover
Celebrate -> Splash
Howl -> Meditate
Iron Defense -> Barrier
Rock Polish -> Agility
Grass Whistle -> Sing
Giga Impact -> Hyper Beam

Moveset Additions:

Hide

Smeargle: +All Gen 1 Moves
Pinsir-M: +Wing Attack, +Fly, +Sky Attack
Umbreon: +Lick, +Night Shade
Cacturne: +Night Shade, +Confuse Ray
Absol/Absol-M: +Psychic
Darkrai: +Night Shade, +Confuse Ray
Deino/Zweilous/Hydreigon: +Lick, +Night Shade, +Confuse Ray
Greninja: +Jump Kick, +High Jump Kick
Inkay/Malamar: +Surf, +Hydro Pump
Yveltal: +Lick, +Night Shade, +Confuse Ray
Wormadam-T: +Acid Armor, +Sludge
Dialga: +Psychic
Ferroseed/Ferrothorn: +Rock Slide
Spritzee/Aromatisse: +Wing Attack, +Drill Peck
Xerneas: +Solar Beam, +Petal Dance, +Leech Seed

Move Guide:

Hide

To make moveset building easier, this is a list of all Gen 1 moves by type. Status Moves are in italics and Gen 6 TM and move tutor moves are bold. Moves added via the TM list above are in red.

Bug
Leech Life
Pin Missile
String Shot
Twineedle

Dragon
Dragon Rage

Electric
Thunder
Thunder Punch
Thunder Shock
Thunder Wave
Thunderbolt

Fighting
Counter
Double Kick
High Jump Kick
Jump Kick
Low Kick
Rolling Kick
Seismic Toss
Submission

Fire
Ember
Fire Blast
Fire Punch
Fire Spin
Flamethrower

Flying
Drill Peck
Fly
Mirror Move
Peck
Sky Attack
Wing Attack

Ghost
Confuse Ray
Lick
Night Shade

Grass
Absorb
Leech Seed
Mega Drain
Petal Dance
Razor Leaf
Sleep Powder
Solar Beam
Spore
Stun Spore
Vine Whip

Ground
Bone Club
Bonemerang
Dig
Earthquake
Fissure
Sand Attack

Ice
Aurora Beam
Blizzard
Haze
Ice Beam
Ice Punch
Mist

Normal
Barrage
Bide
Bind
Bite
Body Slam
Comet Punch
Constrict
Conversion
Cut
Defense Curl
Disable
Dizzy Punch
Double Slap
Double Team
Double-Edge
Egg Bomb
Explosion
Flash
Focus Energy
Fury Attack
Fury Swipes
Glare
Growl
Growth
Guillotine
Gust
Harden
Headbutt
Horn Attack
Horn Drill
Hyper Beam
Hyper Fang
Karate Chop
Leer
Lovely Kiss
Mega Kick
Mega Punch
Metronome
Mimic
Minimize
Pay Day
Pound
Quick Attack
Rage
Razor Wind
Recover
Roar
Scratch
Screech
Self-Destruct
Sharpen
Sing
Skull Bash
Slam
Slash
Smokescreen
Soft-Boiled
Sonic Boom
Spike Cannon
Splash
Stomp
Strength
Substitute
Super Fang
Supersonic
Swift
Swords Dance
Tackle
Tail Whip
Take Down
Thrash
Transform
Tri Attack
Vice Grip
Whirlwind

Poison
Acid
Acid Armor
Poison Gas
Poison Powder
Poison Sting
Sludge
Smog
Toxic

Psychic
Agility
Amnesia
Barrier
Confusion
Dream Eater
Hypnosis
Kinesis
Light Screen
Meditate
Psybeam
Psychic
Psywave
Reflect
Rest
Teleport

Rock
Rock Slide
Rock Throw

Water
Bubble
Bubble Beam
Clamp
Crabhammer
Hydro Pump
Surf
Water Gun
Waterfall
Withdraw

Bans:

Hide

Mewtwo
Mewtwo-MX
Mewtwo-MY
Alakazam-M
Hoopa-U
Deoxys-A
Deoxys-N
Arceus (Normal)
Arceus-Water
Arceus-Grass
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-Electric
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Ice
Arcues-Flying
Arceus-Fighting
Arceus-Psychic
Arceus-Ghost
Arceus-Rock
Arceus-Ground
Lugia
Groudon-P
Kyogre
Kyogre-P
Dialga
Palkia

 

[Jajoken]

CODERS WANTED, PLEASE POST IN THE THREAD IF YOU'RE WILLING TO CONTRIBUTE

This project is currently on hiatus until someone takes over the coding. You are still free to discuss theories and ideas in the thread if you want.

-Jajoken, 4/29/2014

 

[canno]

I have a question - would something like, say, Kingler, get Amnesia since it gets it in later gens as an egg move?

This looks really fun.

 

[Jajoken]

I have a question - would something like, say, Kingler, get Amnesia since it gets it in later gens as an egg move?

This looks really fun.

I'm going to keep all Gen 1 Pokemon entirely intact, for authenticity's sake.

 

[canno]

I'm going to keep all Gen 1 Pokemon entirely intact, for authenticity's sake.

I'm sorry for asking so many questions lol, but does that also apply to Mega pokemon of Gen 1 mons. i.e. does M-Aerodactyl not have Rock Slide?

Also Arceus looks pretty solid. It's probably the second best Normal-type in the game (first is Slaking), and has things over said king (more speed mainly, but also a better movepool).

M-Metagross also looks really good due to its access to Rock Slide and Psychic to pop more physically defensive mons. It can then better suit its coverage with either Thunder/Ice Punch, EQ, or the legendary Hyper Beam! It even has Explosion to finish it all off.

 

[Jajoken]

I'm sorry for asking so many questions lol, but does that also apply to Mega pokemon of Gen 1 mons. i.e. does M-Aerodactyl not have Rock Slide?

Wait, it doesn't get Rock Slide? Huh.

I guess Mega Aerodactyl isn't really a Gen 1 Pokemon, as it counts as a separate entity now. In the future I'll consider making individual moveset additions (like Flying moves for Mega Pinsir), but for now Gen 1 Megas have the moveset of the base Pokemon.

 

[canno]

Yeah it doesn't get Rock Slide in gen 1. Part of the reason why it was so bad.

Oh well, Archeops functions as a good replacement - although 110 Speed isn't as good with shit like Mewtwo, M-Mewtwo Y/X, Deoxys-S (30% crit chance!!) and Arceus running around.

 

[Esprite]

Ok, this seems fun. Slaking is gonna wreck with its two biggest limitations gone: Truant, and Giga Impact making it suffer after a kill.

Also, Missingno is in Showdown. Can you make him a normal/Flying and add him in? (Just for the lols, someone might center a team around him)

 

[Ranger Mike]

So are there tradebacks?

 

[arenten]

I haven't even read the metagame yet, but I approve of the art.

After reading, it looks pretty basic, but it looks fun at the same time. You covered everything essential. You just have to work out how the Tutor moves will be learned.

 

[Isa]

You should take a look at this, it's the same project but only for GSC rather than GSC-XY: http://mount-silver.proboards.com/board/11/rby-251

What's your stance on signature moves? Should those be included? Crystal_, the creator of RBY 251, argued that they should, and as such you could play with Megahorn Heracross, Milk Drink Miltank etc. Would Psycho Boost Deoxys, Techno Blast Genesect, etc. etc. be legal?

 

[canno]

Let's talk about Mewtwo - the original Uber (fuk Mew)

Funnily enough, Mega Mewtwo Y doesn't completely outclass Mewtwo - it's Special is only slightly higher (157) and, while it is faster (140 vs 130), its not as physically bulky. For this reason I believe that Mewtwo does Amnesia better while M-Mewtwo-Y does all-out offense better (it's 150 attack lets it use Submission - which is a thing now due to it being in Mewtwo's RBY movepool - to break down Blissey). Meanwhile M-Mewtwo-X becomes the best fighting-type in the game. One of the things it has going for it is that it's not weak to Psychic like other Fighting-types due to its own Psychic-typing. Then there's that monstrous 190 attack and its respectable 127 Special. Funnily enough, this splits up all of Mewtwo's RBY movesets into different mons, baring the Defensive set, which is done best by normal Mewtwo (although M-Mewtwo-X might also be able to pull it off, I'm not fond of its Fighting-type). Here are those sets

106 / 110 / 90 / 154 / 130
Mewtwo
- Psychic
- Blizzard / Ice Beam
- Amnesia
- Recover / Rest

This is pretty basic set-up set. Amnesia, for those who don't understand, is a +2 to the Special stat - or 2 Calm Minds in RBY. Psychic is basic STAB while Blizzard is a strong coverage move (Blizzard has 90 Acc in RBY). However, if you want more PP and more reliability, Ice Beam is your man. Recover heals you up while Rest does the same thing and gets rid of status. Overall a neat mon

106 / 150 / 70 / 157 / 140
Mewtwo-Mega-Y
- Psychic
- Blizzard
- Submission / Thunderbolt
- Recover / Thunderbolt

This is an all-out attacking set. MM2Y does this set better due to its slightly higher Special but more importantly its higher Speed. Psychic is, again, best STAB move in the game pretty much and Blizzard is coverage. However, this time around you can run Submission which, thanks to its 150 attack, is an option to break open Blissey. However, Thunderbolt is a good option too in order to break open Mega Slowbro. Last move is Recover for longevity. However, you can run Thunderbolt here if you want to break open Chansey and hit Mega Slowbro and friends. Essentially its the best option if you're it with Amnesia Mewtwo imho.

106 / 190 / 100 / 127 / 130
Mewtwo-Mega-X
- Submission
- Thunderbolt / Psychic
- Hyper Beam / Double-Edge
- Recover

RBY's physical Mewtwo is done much better by MM2X due to STAB on Submission and that massive 190 attack. Thunderbolt is used here because of Mega Slowbro who would otherwise not give a shit about you. However, you can run Psychic to break open other physical wall mons. Third slot is Hyper Beam due to its insane power. Double-Edge can be used here, however, to better fare against other Psychic-types. Finally the last slot is Recover due to its good bulk and the fact its main STAB has recoil

 

[Ghoul King]

I'm not a fan of the Special averaging to achieve the Special stat for non-Gen I pokemon, since it's not remotely the backwards version of what happened in moving to Gen II, where every Pokemon kept its exact Special stat, but only on one of Special Attack or Special Defense, and the other was a new number, whole cloth. A more consistent version would be to select a given Pokemon (line's) Special Attack or Special Defense, and that's their Special stat, done. Otherwise we'll see Gen I Pokemon being special exceptions, where Alakazam gets 135 Special and any Gen II-onward Pokemon with Alakazam's Special Attack and Special Defense gets something below that, due to 90 Special Defense.

Also, just to make sure: Gen I-ing includes maxed EVs in everything, right, thus ensuring Alakazam's godhood?

But, as far as what's out there...

---

Firstly, most Megas invalidate the baseline species, since very few of them have any loss at all, let alone a loss of meaning. (Mega Beedrill, off the averaging system, has less Special than Beedrill, but that's fine because you outspeed and murder everything)

Secondly, a lot of later-generation Pokemon probably still substantially invalidate earlier ones -some of the most egregious advantages Conkeldurr has over Machamp are gone, but it's still much the same Pokemon with a more min-maxed distribution.

Thirdly, Speed tiers remain basically as they do in later generations, rather than in earlier generations. This is a radical shift from the Gen I metagame. A lot of these new, lightning fast Pokemon are also, in some ways, scarier than ever -Greninja may not have Protean, its Dark typing, or a lot of its favorite moves like Scald and Gunk Shot, but it still crits more than you do.

Fourthly, a number of later Gen Pokemon are absolutely, 100% worthless, because their core functionality is flat-out gone. The most egregious sufferer is obviously Shedinja, but there's also Castform (No weather) and a number of other Pokemon I can't be bothered to comb through and find/don't remember off the top of my head. (On the other hand, some Pokemon who have lost their primary purpose are still functional, such as Abomasnow -and it's no longer weak to Fire at all, in fact!)

Fifthly, any Pokemon that leaned heavily on its Ability to be good, but is OK underneath that, is... not great. Talonflame might not prove to be worthless (It basically depends on what its Special stat is and whether it gets Drill Peck), but it's not really an important Pokemon anymore.

Sixthly, Mega Mewtwo X is here to kill all of you without any real effort involved.

 

[yikes]

I'm not a fan of the Special averaging to achieve the Special stat for non-Gen I pokemon, since it's not remotely the backwards version of what happened in moving to Gen II, where every Pokemon kept its exact Special stat, but only on one of Special Attack or Special Defense, and the other was a new number, whole cloth. A more consistent version would be to select a given Pokemon (line's) Special Attack or Special Defense, and that's their Special stat, done. Otherwise we'll see Gen I Pokemon being special exceptions, where Alakazam gets 135 Special and any Gen II-onward Pokemon with Alakazam's Special Attack and Special Defense gets something below that, due to 90 Special Defense.

Also, just to make sure: Gen I-ing includes maxed EVs in everything, right, thus ensuring Alakazam's godhood?

But, as far as what's out there...

---

Firstly, most Megas invalidate the baseline species, since very few of them have any loss at all, let alone a loss of meaning. (Mega Beedrill, off the averaging system, has less Special than Beedrill, but that's fine because you outspeed and murder everything)

Secondly, a lot of later-generation Pokemon probably still substantially invalidate earlier ones -some of the most egregious advantages Conkeldurr has over Machamp are gone, but it's still much the same Pokemon with a more min-maxed distribution.

Thirdly, Speed tiers remain basically as they do in later generations, rather than in earlier generations. This is a radical shift from the Gen I metagame. A lot of these new, lightning fast Pokemon are also, in some ways, scarier than ever -Greninja may not have Protean, its Dark typing, or a lot of its favorite moves like Scald and Gunk Shot, but it still crits more than you do.

Fourthly, a number of later Gen Pokemon are absolutely, 100% worthless, because their core functionality is flat-out gone. The most egregious sufferer is obviously Shedinja, but there's also Castform (No weather) and a number of other Pokemon I can't be bothered to comb through and find/don't remember off the top of my head. (On the other hand, some Pokemon who have lost their primary purpose are still functional, such as Abomasnow -and it's no longer weak to Fire at all, in fact!)

Fifthly, any Pokemon that leaned heavily on its Ability to be good, but is OK underneath that, is... not great. Talonflame might not prove to be worthless (It basically depends on what its Special stat is and whether it gets Drill Peck), but it's not really an important Pokemon anymore.

Sixthly, Mega Mewtwo X is here to kill all of you without any real effort involved.

Wait, Obama isn't weak to Fire? How come?

 

[Ghoul King]

Ice resists Fire in Gen I.

EDIT: Wait, I might be thinking of Fire not resisting Ice. Still checking.

 

[Snaquaza]

Ice doesn't resist Fire. Fire does not resist Ice.

 

[canno]

Abomasnow -and it's no longer weak to Fire at all, in fact!

Uh, Abomasnow is still 4x weak to Fire. However, it's Blizzards now hit Fire-types neutrally. Ice-type in general is much better here due to Fighting not being as prevalent (with Psychic being the dominant typing and all) and Fire being...kind of shit.

Anyways 2 interesting mons in this meta are Mega Diancie and Mega Metagross. They both are pretty similar, but have key differences

Rock / Psychic
50/160/110/135/110
- Rock Slide
- Psychic
- Hyper Beam
- Explosion

Rock / Psychic
80/145/150/107/110
- Rock Slide
- Psychic
- Earthquake / Hyper Beam / Ice Punch
- Explosion

M-Diancie is stronger than Megagross in both fronts, but has a worst movepool (only really matters with EQ). However, Megagross is much bulkier than Diancie physically and slightly bulkier specially, which is important due to the typing. Explosion is a good movepool addition to both of these.

On another note, I agree with Ghoul King - I think choosing one of SpDef and SpA would be better than averaging them.

 

[Ghoul King]

I've mostly finished with covering Double Edge in the document, except it occurred to me partway through: are we saying breeding is an acceptable justification of a move, or not? It's not a mechanic in Gen I, so arguably it makes no sense, but that's not the same thing as saying that's what we're running with.

 

[Jajoken]

You covered everything essential. You just have to work out how the Tutor moves will be learned.

According to Bulbapedia, the only tutor in Gen 1 was teaching Pikachu Surf through Stadium.

What's your stance on signature moves? Should those be included? Crystal_, the creator of RBY 251, argued that they should, and as such you could play with Megahorn Heracross, Milk Drink Miltank etc. Would Psycho Boost Deoxys, Techno Blast Genesect, etc. etc. be legal?

I want to play within the RBY limits as much as possible. I could include Megahorn on Heracross, but then our almighty masters the Psychic types would actually have a move to hit them super effectively, and we can't have that. No sir.

(For real though, I'm going to stick with the original moves. This is basically an "expansion pack" for RBY, adding a ton of new Pokemon but no new mechanics.)

I'm not a fan of the Special averaging to achieve the Special stat for non-Gen I pokemon, since it's not remotely the backwards version of what happened in moving to Gen II, where every Pokemon kept its exact Special stat, but only on one of Special Attack or Special Defense, and the other was a new number, whole cloth. A more consistent version would be to select a given Pokemon (line's) Special Attack or Special Defense, and that's their Special stat, done. Otherwise we'll see Gen I Pokemon being special exceptions, where Alakazam gets 135 Special and any Gen II-onward Pokemon with Alakazam's Special Attack and Special Defense gets something below that, due to 90 Special Defense.

This is a good point, but it requires a lot more individual tweaking and a lot of grey areas. Shuckle for instance -- what Special would you give it? Do you make it one of the least Specially defensive Pokemon in the game, completely negating its role as a mixed tank, or make it an absurdly powerful attacker? Probably the first one, but you see my point. Concerning Special attackers being nerfed in later gens and Gen 1 having the edge...that's probably a good thing. After all, the original 151 shouldn't be entirely outclassed, and Special is such a great stat that I don't think later Gen Pokemon will suffer too much.

Also, just to make sure: Gen I-ing includes maxed EVs in everything, right, thus ensuring Alakazam's godhood?

Yep! Though Mega Alakazam has the same Special and higher Speed.

I've mostly finished with covering Double Edge in the document, except it occurred to me partway through: are we saying breeding is an acceptable justification of a move, or not? It's not a mechanic in Gen I, so arguably it makes no sense, but that's not the same thing as saying that's what we're running with.

I'm just going to ignore how a Pokemon in later generations learns a move: if it can use it in Gen 6, it can use it here (provided it exists). Thanks for helping out, by the way.

 

[FlameUser64]

According to Bulbapedia, the only tutor in Gen 1 was teaching Pikachu Surf through Stadium.


I want to play within the RBY limits as much as possible. I could include Megahorn on Heracross, but then our almighty masters the Psychic types would actually have a move to hit them super effectively, and we can't have that. No sir.

(For real though, I'm going to stick with the original moves. This is basically an "expansion pack" for RBY, adding a ton of new Pokemon but no new mechanics.)


This is a good point, but it requires a lot more individual tweaking and a lot of grey areas. Shuckle for instance -- what Special would you give it? Do you make it one of the least Specially defensive Pokemon in the game, completely negating its role as a mixed tank, or make it an absurdly powerful attacker? Probably the first one, but you see my point. Concerning Special attackers being nerfed in later gens and Gen 1 having the edge...that's probably a good thing. After all, the original 151 shouldn't be entirely outclassed, and Special is such a great stat that I don't think later Gen Pokemon will suffer too much.



Yep! Though Mega Alakazam has the same Special and higher Speed.



I'm just going to ignore how a Pokemon in later generations learns a move: if it can use it in Gen 6, it can use it here (provided it exists). Thanks for helping out, by the way.

Personally I'd like to have Signature Moves from later gens included, even if only those. For one thing, Mewtwo becomes even more godly with the ability to hit the foes' Def with Psystrike. If a move was originally a signature move, only the thing that first got it would have access to it. For example, Megahorn Heracross to actually hit Psychics, V-create Victini remains to dominate the meta, and other shenanigans.

Edit: Also please spell Diancie's name right in the OP. It helps when people try to search it.

 

[Jajoken]

Personally I'd like to have Signature Moves from later gens included, even if only those. For one thing, Mewtwo becomes even more godly with the ability to hit the foes' Def with Psystrike. If a move was originally a signature move, only the thing that first got it would have access to it. For example, Megahorn Heracross to actually hit Psychics, V-create Victini remains to dominate the meta, and other shenanigans.

One problem is that a lot of signature moves use later Gen mechanics that are completely foreign in RBY, like lowering stats with Psycho Boost and V-create. Also, some Pokemon's signature moves, like Meteor Mash and Night Daze, don't even have existing types. For this project, I'm just going to stick with the original moves -- you'll be seeing more varied options in future Gens.

 

[Ghoul King]

Double Edge

OK everything that can learn it naturally is Blue-ed.

Should we maybe have a color for "this is actually in its learn-list" and a different color for "folks think it would make sense for it to be in its learn-list"?

This is a good point, but it requires a lot more individual tweaking and a lot of grey areas. Shuckle for instance -- what Special would you give it? Do you make it one of the least Specially defensive Pokemon in the game, completely negating its role as a mixed tank, or make it an absurdly powerful attacker? Probably the first one, but you see my point. Concerning Special attackers being nerfed in later gens and Gen 1 having the edge...that's probably a good thing. After all, the original 151 shouldn't be entirely outclassed, and Special is such a great stat that I don't think later Gen Pokemon will suffer too much.

My point is that it's inconsistent, not that it gives Gen I Pokemon an edge -in fact, tons of Gen I Pokemon are worse off for it, because they have a crap Special stat and were given a much better Special Defense stat (Sometimes Special Attack, but usually Special Defense) in Gen II (Using their crap Special to be crap Special Attack), and therefore the averaging result would make them better -it's a much smaller number of Pokemon who are sneering at later-gen Pokemon.

Personally, I'd be the nutcase who'd give Shuckle 235 Special, so its defenses were equivalent. It's not like it's got much to use it with anyway.

The only compelling point I'll give you is that it's an increase in the amount of work involved in this Pet Mod -but you're perfectly fine reworking movepools to help later Gen Pokemon, so even that seems a bit inconsistent.

 

[Snaquaza]

Volcarona looks immensely scary. It gets Amnesia, which is probably the best move that has ever existed. On top of that it gets a 120 Base Special, which is insane as well, together with a 100 speed stat. A set of Amnesia, Fire Blast, Psychic and Giga Drain looks really scary. (Don't run Bug STAB as it's physical and 20 BP. aka Leech Life). Fire Blast to nuke a lot of stuff, even if it isn't a great type in RBY. Giga Drain for coverage against Water, Ground and Rock types. Especially Rock types that would usually threaten you are now OHKO'd while you get Recovery. Psychic is filler honestly but it seems like the best move it gets and it's a great type so I guess it could be used as decent filler. It's checked by Chansey, but it can only Thunder Wave as Volcarona can keep setting up until it can KO, while recovering with Giga Drain and Chansey can't do a lot of damage. Afterwards it can be revenged though.

 

[canno]

This is a good point, but it requires a lot more individual tweaking and a lot of grey areas. Shuckle for instance -- what Special would you give it? Do you make it one of the least Specially defensive Pokemon in the game, completely negating its role as a mixed tank, or make it an absurdly powerful attacker? Probably the first one, but you see my point. Concerning Special attackers being nerfed in later gens and Gen 1 having the edge...that's probably a good thing. After all, the original 151 shouldn't be entirely outclassed, and Special is such a great stat that I don't think later Gen Pokemon will suffer too much.

I pretty much agree with Ghoul King here. I mean, it's not like the current system addresses the problem with Shuckle well - it has 120 Special. Not that it matters - the only way it can use Special moves is if it Mimic's one, so 230 would fit it much better. Meanwhile Deoxys-Attack, what's suppose to be the ultimate offensive form, has 100 Special. Then you get Greninja with 87 Special and other shenanigans. Skymin has 97.5 special, which means the "offensive forme" of Shaymin has less special than normal Shaymin.

Volcarona looks immensely scary. It gets Amnesia, which is probably the best move that has ever existed. On top of that it gets a 120 Base Special, which is insane as well, together with a 100 speed stat. A set of Amnesia, Fire Blast, Psychic and Giga Drain looks really scary. (Don't run Bug STAB as it's physical and 20 BP. aka Leech Life). Fire Blast to nuke a lot of stuff, even if it isn't a great type in RBY. Giga Drain for coverage against Water, Ground and Rock types. Especially Rock types that would usually threaten you are now OHKO'd while you get Recovery. Psychic is filler honestly but it seems like the best move it gets and it's a great type so I guess it could be used as decent filler. It's checked by Chansey, but it can only Thunder Wave as Volcarona can keep setting up until it can KO, while recovering with Giga Drain and Chansey can't do a lot of damage. Afterwards it can be revenged though.

Giga Drain didn't exist in Gen 1

 

[Snaquaza]

Giga Drain didn't exist in Gen 1

I think I got confused with Mega Drain then. Well it got a lot worse now, so it's probably not as OP as I expected, still really good though, even when I have no idea what to run as a fourth move on. Luckily it can be checked decently by rock and water types now, as long as they can survive a +2 Psychic/Fire Blast. Rest is probably the best so it can keep its HP up.