Gen Wun (4/29: Final Quick Bans)

Roost is not a perfect clone of Recover/Softboiled, because it has a special effect for Flying types.

The proper clones are...

Milk Drink

Slack Off

Heal Order (Unless you care about typing)

done. The weather-based ones all have less PP, even though in a Gen I environment they're otherwise identical, and Roost, like I said, has an extra effect.

My main thought is that it's another possible guideline for giving moves to Pokemon. Like, Milk Drink/Slack Off=Recover/Softboiled because that's functionally what they would have, so it's almost identical to saying "If they learn Rock Slide later they get Rock Slide". The primary difference (Until you hit Gen III and Imprison becomes a thing) is aesthetic. It also addresses Pokemon that are meant to be walls or whatever, and in "real Gen Wun" would absolutely have been given such moves, without requiring we manually comb through every possibility and go "Oh yeah this thing needs recovery".

(A similar thought came to mind before in regards to Calm Mind -it's identical to Growth in functionality, comparing across generations, but it's way more un-flavorful)

I'm fine with the answer being "no", it was just a thought in regards to simplifying the movepool stuff: in full clone cases clone moves are treated identically in some sense.
 
Ghoul King said:
Roost is not a perfect clone of Recover/Softboiled, because it has a special effect for Flying types.

The proper clones are...

Milk Drink

Slack Off

Heal Order (Unless you care about typing)

done. The weather-based ones all have less PP, even though in a Gen I environment they're otherwise identical, and Roost, like I said, has an extra effect.

My main thought is that it's another possible guideline for giving moves to Pokemon. Like, Milk Drink/Slack Off=Recover/Softboiled because that's functionally what they would have, so it's almost identical to saying "If they learn Rock Slide later they get Rock Slide". The primary difference (Until you hit Gen III and Imprison becomes a thing) is aesthetic. It also addresses Pokemon that are meant to be walls or whatever, and in "real Gen Wun" would absolutely have been given such moves, without requiring we manually comb through every possibility and go "Oh yeah this thing needs recovery".

(A similar thought came to mind before in regards to Calm Mind -it's identical to Growth in functionality, comparing across generations, but it's way more un-flavorful)

I'm fine with the answer being "no", it was just a thought in regards to simplifying the movepool stuff: in full clone cases clone moves are treated identically in some sense.
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That makes sense. Any Pokemon that gets Milk Drink, Slack Off or Heal Order in Gen 6 gets Recover in Gen Wun. I'll update the OP later.

Any other move clones I should know about?

(I'll post the Arceus bans tomorrow...too tired.)
 
Jajoken said:
That makes sense. Any Pokemon that gets Milk Drink, Slack Off or Heal Order in Gen 6 gets Recover in Gen Wun. I'll update the OP later.

Any other move clones I should know about?

(I'll post the Arceus bans tomorrow...too tired.)
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You can find all similar moves here.

That said, I'm against adding custom moves, even if this is a Pet Mod. It's not what this metagame is trying to achieve, from what I see. It's going back to Gen One with Gen 6, rather than simulating Gen 6 with some Gen 1 element. This means that if something doesn't get Recover, it shouldn't get it. Otherwise some Gen 1 stuff would get moves they didn't get in Gen 1. Slowbro would get Slack Off -> Recover, thus changing how it functions. It also goes against flavor, as Recover is obviously really different from Heal Order. I get what you're trying to do, but if you're changing like this, you should allow stuff like Blaze Kick -> Flamethrower as well, if you want to simulate Gen 6 Metagame in Gen 1, rather than just Gen 6 Mons in Gen 1.
 
The other "true clone" moves that cross generations I'm seeing in that list are...

-Hold back is literally False Swipe. But we don't care, because this isn't Gen Tu.

-Arguably Giga Impact to Hyper Beam, though for it to matter there'd have to be Pokemon that learn Giga Impact but not Hyper Beam... which weirdly enough there are Pokemon that fit this, such as Lillipup.

-Horn Leech is Giga Drain, but Physical. But again, not Gen Tu.

-Vacuum Wave is Mach Punch, but Special. Still not Gen Tu.

-Iron Defense is identical to Acid Armor/Barrier, other than typing.

-Rock Polish is identical to Agility, other than typing.

-Cosmic Power and Defend Order are identical, other than typing. This isn't Gen Thwee.

-Feather Dance is identical to Charm, other than typing. Still not Gen Tu.

-Howl is identical to Meditate/Sharpen, other than typing for Meditate. Surprisingly, Meditate is a Gen I move, and of course Sharpen is Gen I.

-Foresight and Odor Sleuth are 100% identical to my knowledge. Not Gen Tu.

-Heal Bell and Aromatherapy are identical prior to Gen III other than typing, and Aromatherapy doesn't exist in Gen II. Not Gen Tu.

-Block is 100% identical to Mean Look. Not Gen Tu.

-The healing moves I've already covered.

-Sing and Grass Whistle are 100% identical other than typing. (They're even both sound moves, not that Gen Wun cares)

-Celebrate is Splash. (Hold Hands targets an adjacent ally and "fails" in a Singles battle, so it's not actually identical) Give Splash to things! Pretend it matters! (OK there is PP stalling)

-Trick and Switcheroo are identical other than typing. Not Gen Thwee.

So basically we might give Splash, Sharpen, Barrier/Acid Armor, healing moves, Agility, Sing, and Hyper Beam to some Pokemon via this logic.

Snaquaza said:
That said, I'm against adding custom moves, even if this is a Pet Mod. It's not what this metagame is trying to achieve, from what I see. It's going back to Gen One with Gen 6, rather than simulating Gen 6 with some Gen 1 element. This means that if something doesn't get Recover, it shouldn't get it. Otherwise some Gen 1 stuff would get moves they didn't get in Gen 1. Slowbro would get Slack Off -> Recover, thus changing how it functions. It also goes against flavor, as Recover is obviously really different from Heal Order. I get what you're trying to do, but if you're changing like this, you should allow stuff like Blaze Kick -> Flamethrower as well, if you want to simulate Gen 6 Metagame in Gen 1, rather than just Gen 6 Mons in Gen 1.
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He already decided that Gen I Pokemon benefit from their later Gen learnlists eg Rock Slide is now everywhere, so Gen I Pokemon are already getting moves they didn't get in Gen I.

Blaze Kick is also not actually identical to Flamethrower and never has been, being lower BP and lower Accuracy.
 
Ghoul King said:
Blaze Kick is also not actually identical to Flamethrower and never has been, being lower BP and lower Accuracy.
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You didn't understand my post I think. I never said it was identical and you shouldn't act like I said that. I said that to comparison's sake. In the case you give Pokemon with Heal Order access to Recover to stimulate the effects and the power they had in this metagame, you could just as well give Flamethrower to Lucario as it gets Blaze Kick. Yes, I realize it's not the same, but it's really similar, and if you give Pokemon access to new moves because they had a move with the same effect in the old metagame, this should technically work as well. Lucario loses Blaze Kick, but to give it access to a similar Fire type move, it gets Flamethrower, to simulate the old metagame. In my opinion we shouldn't do this, as it leads to a slippery slope, even though I realize my example will probably not happen. If you allow Recover -> Heal Order to simulate it, you could allow Blaze Kick -> Flamethrower for the same reason (Spectrum doesnt' matter as it's Special anyway in Gen 1). If that happens you could also give something with Close Combat Submissions, etc. Which just leads to an annoying metagame in which everything has new moves, instead of just getting Gen 6 in Gen 1.

I'm fine if you disagree with what I said and would be happy to listen to it, but it's kinda annoying to get commented on something I didn't state while not commenting on the actual post! Please reply if you disagree with the crux of this post though. :)

Also Whirlpool and Clamp are about similar.
 
Snaquaza said:
You didn't understand my post I think. I never said it was identical and you shouldn't act like I said that. I said that to comparison's sake. In the case you give Pokemon with Heal Order access to Recover to stimulate the effects and the power they had in this metagame, you could just as well give Flamethrower to Lucario as it gets Blaze Kick. Yes, I realize it's not the same, but it's really similar, and if you give Pokemon access to new moves because they had a move with the same effect in the old metagame, this should technically work as well. Lucario loses Blaze Kick, but to give it access to a similar Fire type move, it gets Flamethrower, to simulate the old metagame. In my opinion we shouldn't do this, as it leads to a slippery slope, even though I realize my example will probably not happen. If you allow Recover -> Heal Order to simulate it, you could allow Blaze Kick -> Flamethrower for the same reason (Spectrum doesnt' matter as it's Special anyway in Gen 1). If that happens you could also give something with Close Combat Submissions, etc. Which just leads to an annoying metagame in which everything has new moves, instead of just getting Gen 6 in Gen 1.

I'm fine if you disagree with what I said and would be happy to listen to it, but it's kinda annoying to get commented on something I didn't state while not commenting on the actual post! Please reply if you disagree with the crux of this post though. :)

Also Whirlpool and Clamp are about similar.
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Forgot Whirlool and Clamp yeah.

Anyway the difference between what I was suggesting that Jajoken made official and what you were saying it leads to is that I'm suggesting that identical functionality, such that if you provided no names and no animations you would not be able to tell the difference (ie Recover and Slack Off are 100% identical in every way that matters), provides a basis for learnlists. That in no way implies that similar functionality should justify learnlists -Lucario does not have Flamethrower and if you hacked Blaze Kick+Lucario into a Gen I cart it would be different from just hacking Lucario into a Gen I cart and then giving it Flamethrower. Hacking Slaking into a Gen I cart and then going "eh" and giving it Recover to simulate its later access to Slack Off, meanwhile, is functionally indistinguishable from going through the effort to also hack in Slack Off. Until Gen III introduced Imprison, 100% clones only matter to the extent that you can have two identical moves on a single Pokemon legally, but cannot have two copies of the same move on a single Pokemon legally. (I keep pointing out cases where typing is different because that does actually matter for purposes of, for instance, Conversion -there's a difference between using Conversion on Heal Order than on Recover, for instance)

Meanwhile, one of the first things this Pet Mod did was assign moves to Gen II-VI Pokemon on an essentially arbitrary basis, so it seems odd to complain about a non-arbitrary logic for making decisions about movepools. If anything I'm trying to limit the kind of slippery slope you are bringing up, not move in its direction.

Anyway, I wasn't responding to something you didn't say, I was responding to

I get what you're trying to do, but if you're changing like this, you should allow stuff like Blaze Kick -> Flamethrower as well, if you want to simulate Gen 6 Metagame in Gen 1, rather than just Gen 6 Mons in Gen 1.
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which, as I laid out above, doesn't fit to the line of reasoning for why clone moves affecting learnlists might make sense.

EDIT: Really, thinking on it, Blaze Kick=Flamethrower for Lucario is actually a surprisingly bad example, because Blaze Kick has an increased critical hit ratio. In conjunction with Mega Lucario's Speed, retrohacktively adding in Mega Lucario to Gen I and going "eh fuck it" and giving it Flamethrower is actually very different from going through the additional effort of hacking in Blaze Kick and giving it to Mega Lucario -Blaze Kick is a spammable effectively 170 BP move at that kind of Speed, which Flamethrower most certainly is not.
 
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I've added the move conversions. As Ghoul King has pointed out, I've already added in Gen 6 movesets for Gen 1 Pokemon, so I don't really have a problem with adding moves considering they have the exact same functionality. Yes, now Slowbro has Recover now, and plays differently than in Gen 1, but Aerodactyl has Rock Slide, and also plays differently. This wasn't my original vision, but that's the way things have gone. I won't be adding anything that doesn't have identical functionality, so no Flamethrower Lucario.

The Arceus bans are in! Everyone but Bug and Poison are banned. Considering both of these have absolutely no STAB, I don't think they'll be too much of an issue. I may give them Sludge and Leech Life for a laugh, but don't expect god-ness from them.

The new bans are up! I'm just going to take care of all the "boxart" legendaries, so every Pokemon other than Venusaur, Charizard, Blastoise and Pikachu [EDIT: and Suicine!] that has appeared on a main series cover (plus Giratina-A, basic Kyurem and Rayquaza-M) is up for discussion. Take into consideration some nerfs (no STAB Giratina is sad) and changes (Xerneas has a new type and several new moves) that might impact their viability. The full list is in the 2nd Post. Deadline to vote is Sunday night at midnight.
 
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The main few that I want to comment on are...

-Xerneas is now Grass. Just Grass. It's also been given stuff like Leech Seed, but it isn't the bulkiest thing ever. And of course it does not get Geomancy. I will honestly be surprised if it's broken.

-Dialga is the godly Psychic typing. And yes it gets Psychic. And 150 Special. Please no

-Palkia is of course the amazing Dragon/Water typing, which in this Generation is functionally another no-weaknesses typing. And it gets Surf for sure. And 150 Special. Yikes.

-Groudon and Kyogre don't get weather in this. They'll definitely be good just for BST reasons, but less amazing. And Groudon-Primal A: has awful Special and B: doesn't get Water protection from Desolate Land and C: Fire does not yet resist Ice, so it has three weaknesses, one of which is a double.

-Regular Rayquaza is basically a slightly better Dragonite. Dragonite is not, in fact, king of Gen I. Food for thought. Mega Rayquaza also lacks Delta Stream and has godawful Special, though 180 Attack is nothing to laugh at, even with no good STAB. It gets Fly, which although a godawful move might be worth it off 180 STAB Attack. Maybe.
 
Lugia is a Psychic-type, so that's almost an instant "no". It's stats scream an even louder "NOOO"

Ho-oh has a crappy type but its stats are pretty fucking good, specifically that 154 Special. I'd be interested to see how it performs, and think it could fit ok in our "OU", but I doubt it will.

Funnily enough, this puts Suicune as a suspect, as it is the cover legendary for Crystal. While it is bulky and good, I don't see it being too broken. It's bulky, but I don't see it any worst than Slowbro and Vapy (who is UU in RBY for reference).

Groudon is questionable. It's 100/140/90 bulk is really good, and it's no slouch offensively on both fronts (mainly Physical though, and I don't see it using Fire Blast anytime soon). To get an idea of how bulky this thing is

Braviary Hyper Beam vs. Groudon: 148-175 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Considering that's Hyper Beam, Groudon does pretty well vs Normals. I'd ban it. Now Primal Groudon I'm unsure. On one hand it's typing is atrocious. On the other...

Braviary Hyper Beam vs. Groudon: 135-159 (33.4 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Bravairy Hyper Beam vs. Aerodactyl: 122-144 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Kyogre is a ban in my mind no matter what - for both forms. While they might not have Amnesia like Slowbro does, it still has 140 Special / 160 Special in Primal form, not to mention close to Starmie-tier coverage with BoltBeam and Water STAB.

I'm leaning towards maybe letting normal RayRay around. It's basically a worst Dragonite since it doesn't get Wrap. Sure it has 150 attack but no STAB makes that worst than it looks. Then again, you don't need STAB to be threatening. Which brings me to my next point - Mega RayRay has 180 attack and a decent 100 special. It also has 115 speed and is bulkier than Mew. No thank you.

Dialga and Palkia can both fuck off to Ubers. One is a Psychic titan with some more resists, and the other has no weaknesses and can nuke shit with Surf. Both Giratinas can also fuck off because if they stay in they can single handily wall basically all Normal- and Fighting-type. It's just too bulky.

Reshiram's typing is not actually that impressive in this meta. In my mind this thing sits in the same position as Ho-oh does, except its worst than Ho-oh in almost every way. Zekrom meanwhile is actually pretty good and should stay the hell away. It becomes a pretty good answer to Water-types that don't have a sub Ground-type. Kyurem is in a similar position - it actually makes great use of the Dragon-type, as it's not weak to Ice and has all of Dragon's good resists. This thing should also probably stay away. This is especially true for its alternate forms - Kyurem-Black and Kyurem-White.

Xerneas and Yveltals are big no's due to their typings. Xerneas becomes a Grass / Psychic, which makes it pretty good. Grass gives it a useful resistance to Water, and it doesn't matter that it doesn't get "the good STAB" because it has Psychic. Meanwhile Yveltal has the same issue that Giratina has in the form of fucking over Normal- and Fighting-types a little too hard.
 
The Reptile said:
Xerneas and Yveltals are big no's due to their typings. Xerneas becomes a Grass / Psychic, which makes it pretty good. Grass gives it a useful resistance to Water, and it doesn't matter that it doesn't get "the good STAB" because it has Psychic. Meanwhile Yveltal has the same issue that Giratina has in the form of fucking over Normal- and Fighting-types a little too hard.
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Xerneas is pure Grass.
 
The Reptile said:
Funnily enough, this puts Suicune as a suspect, as it is the cover legendary for Crystal. While it is bulky and good, I don't see it being too broken. It's bulky, but I don't see it any worst than Slowbro and Vapy (who is UU in RBY for reference).
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I forgot Crystal existed lol. It's not up for Quick Ban -- that was an oversight. I don't think any of the trios are worth banning without testing them -- the Sinnoh Lake trio might be pretty good, but we'll see.

And yes, Xerneas is Grass/Psychic. It's probably the most drastic type change, and I only gave it Grass moves, so I can see people overlooking that detail. I just didn't feel either type was an adequate representation, so I gave it both.
 
I think a very powerful threat in this meta is sure to be Hoopa-Confined.
hoopa-pokemon.png

Of course if Hoopa-U was still here there would be no reason to use this thing.

Despite having a pitiful 60 base Defense that leaves it prone to being revenge killed, Hoopa's Psychic/Ghost typing leaves it with no weaknesses and a resistance to Psychic, as well as an immunity to the second-best attacking type in the game, Normal. That 150 Special means it can take on many Special moves with ease, and dish them back out extremely hard. Using its STABs, it can break through anything but bulky Psychic-types, who can be handled by teammates or powerful neutral coverage. 110 Attack isn't nothing, either, meaning walls with high Special like Cress can be beaten down by unexpected Hyper Beams. I wouldn't say we should suspect this thing due to its weak Phys Defense, but overall definitely something to watch out for.

Also yeah Kyurem is effectively only weak to Rock and Fighting (the only Dragon move has set damage), the latter a terrible typing, and has 130 Special. Get that thing the hell out of here.
 
Thinking about the no STAB Arceus forms, I wanted to open up the discussion for some more moveset additions, like I did with those that got their type changed (Solar Beam Xerneas, Drill Peck Aromatise). What Pokemon feel like they have moves they'd logically learn in Gen 1? I don't want to go too crazy here; I'd prefer to focus on later Gen Pokemon with very sparse movesets.
 
Sorry that this has been dead for so long! Here are the very late Quick Ban results. If there was a split, I settled on the Unban side.

Banned: Lugia, Groudon-P, Kyogre, Kyogre-P, Dialga, Palkia
Remains Unbanned: Ho-oh, Groudon, Rayquaza, Rayquaza-M, Giratina-A, Giratina-O, Zekrom, Reshiram, Kyurem, Kyurem-W, Kyurem-B, Xerneas, Yveltal

Sadly, due in part to my involvement with future OM projects and partly due to the general lack of interest, I won't be updating this thread unless someone miraculously codes this. I planned to progress through the generations up until Gen 5 (here's the finished TM list for Gen Tü) but I'd currently rather focus on other things. If someone would like to take over the project, you can contact me.

Thank you.
 
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