Gen Wun (4/29: Final Quick Bans)

Snaquaza said:
I think I got confused with Mega Drain then. Well it got a lot worse now, so it's probably not as OP as I expected, still really good though, even when I have no idea what to run as a fourth move on. Luckily it can be checked decently by rock and water types now, as long as they can survive a +2 Psychic/Fire Blast. Rest is probably the best so it can keep its HP up.
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Well, there's a possibility that Volc will get Mega Drain seeing as its a TM in Gen 1 and it learns Giga Drain, so that might be an option. Rest is probably the better option though even if it gets Mega Drain though because of healing and status removal (primarily paralysis).
 
Ghoul King said:
My point is that it's inconsistent, not that it gives Gen I Pokemon an edge -in fact, tons of Gen I Pokemon are worse off for it, because they have a crap Special stat and were given a much better Special Defense stat (Sometimes Special Attack, but usually Special Defense) in Gen II (Using their crap Special to be crap Special Attack), and therefore the averaging result would make them better -it's a much smaller number of Pokemon who are sneering at later-gen Pokemon.

Personally, I'd be the nutcase who'd give Shuckle 235 Special, so its defenses were equivalent. It's not like it's got much to use it with anyway.

The only compelling point I'll give you is that it's an increase in the amount of work involved in this Pet Mod -but you're perfectly fine reworking movepools to help later Gen Pokemon, so even that seems a bit inconsistent.
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Alright, I'll start up a separate document to choose which stat to use for Special -- you've won me over.
Should we maybe have a color for "this is actually in its learn-list" and a different color for "folks think it would make sense for it to be in its learn-list"?
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I'll change the finished ones to Green and Yellow (for reasons that should be obvious) -- Red and Blue will be the in-progress colors.

EDIT: Actually, I'm just going to change the heading to Green for finished and Yellow for "in progress." In other news, Submission and Bubblebeam are open for editing. Remember that a few Pokemon (Greninja, Bisharp, etc.) are newly made Fighting types, so they probably should get fighting STAB. Also Bubblebeam can be learned by Random Pokemon that don't usually learn Water moves, like Articuno and Marowak of all things. Be open to giving Pokemon weird moves, as is the Gen 1 tradition.
 
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ElderadoFrost said:
Mega Charizard would be OP if Dragon Rage wasn't the only Dragon-type move.

Also, TELL ME we are using the sprite art.
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If I can replace sprites without much difficulty, then definitely. I'll have to ask the original creator for permission, though.

ALSO: I've edited the OP with some new information, including the new Special for Gen 2-3 Pokemon. Note that picking either Special Attack or Defense as the base was done mostly arbitrarily, with three rules in mind: 1) The stat chosen should be the same throughout the evolutionary family, 2) Gen 1 Megas get favoritism, usually getting their higher of the two, and 3) Bug types get screwed, as is the Gen 1 tradion.
 
Jajoken said:
If I can replace sprites without much difficulty, then definitely. I'll have to ask the original creator for permission, though.

ALSO: I've edited the OP with some new information, including the new Special for Gen 2-3 Pokemon. Note that picking either Special Attack or Defense as the base was done mostly arbitrarily, with three rules in mind: 1) The stat chosen should be the same throughout the evolutionary family, 2) Gen 1 Megas get favoritism, usually getting their higher of the two, and 3) Bug types get screwed, as is the Gen 1 tradion.
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I think it's strange how Hitmontop and Gen 2 Starters have been done. Hitmons both got low Special, so Hitmontop shouldn't get 110 Special imo. Gen 1 and 2 starters got same stats, but hustled. I don't know if they're all screwed up but Typhlosion is at least. Charizard lost its 109 Special Attack, so Typhlosion shouldn't get it.
 
Snaquaza said:
I think it's strange how Hitmontop and Gen 2 Starters have been done. Hitmons both got low Special, so Hitmontop shouldn't get 110 Special imo. Gen 1 and 2 starters got same stats, but hustled. I don't know if they're all screwed up but Typhlosion is at least. Charizard lost its 109 Special Attack, so Typhlosion shouldn't get it.
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Changed. Again, these were fairly arbitrary. I didn't know about the links between Gen 1 and 2 starts, and I just felt bad for Hitmontop and his base 35 lol. Oh well, no one is going to use Hitmontop without his abilities or Close Combat, anyway.
 
Body Slam, Submisson, and Bubble Beam are finish. I might of overlooked some things though but yeah I think the move distribution seems right.

Also feel kind of bad for hogging it but w/e
 
Snaquaza said:
Volcarona looks immensely scary. It gets Amnesia, which is probably the best move that has ever existed. On top of that it gets a 120 Base Special, which is insane as well, together with a 100 speed stat. A set of Amnesia, Fire Blast, Psychic and Giga Drain looks really scary. (Don't run Bug STAB as it's physical and 20 BP. aka Leech Life). Fire Blast to nuke a lot of stuff, even if it isn't a great type in RBY. Giga Drain for coverage against Water, Ground and Rock types. Especially Rock types that would usually threaten you are now OHKO'd while you get Recovery. Psychic is filler honestly but it seems like the best move it gets and it's a great type so I guess it could be used as decent filler. It's checked by Chansey, but it can only Thunder Wave as Volcarona can keep setting up until it can KO, while recovering with Giga Drain and Chansey can't do a lot of damage. Afterwards it can be revenged though.
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Wtf is Chansey doing here? Items aren't here, so Blissey is 100% better.
 
Esprite said:
Wtf is Chansey doing here? Items aren't here, so Blissey is 100% better.
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At that Point I didn't know the new stats of Blissey, so I didn't account for it as if its special stat would've been lower, Chansey would've outclassed it.
Doesn't really matter though as they do the same thing.
 
Snaquaza said:
At that Point I didn't know the new stats of Blissey, so I didn't account for it as if its special stat would've been lower, Chansey would've outclassed it.
Doesn't really matter though as they do the same thing.
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I feel as if that one isn't a problem, evolving from Chansey, we can assume it has the regular stat-ups, so it's like gens2-4 all over again.
 
Ok looking at the new Special stats there really isn't a reason to run normal Mewtwo over either of the two forms (the only case I can think of is if you want to run Stalltwo and don't want the Fighting-type but I think something like Lugia does that better). Amnesia MM2Y - hell even Amnesia MM2X due to its ability to break open Blissey with Submission looks very threatening.
 
Jajoken said:
ALSO: I've edited the OP with some new information, including the new Special for Gen 2-3 Pokemon. Note that picking either Special Attack or Defense as the base was done mostly arbitrarily, with three rules in mind: 1) The stat chosen should be the same throughout the evolutionary family, 2) Gen 1 Megas get favoritism, usually getting their higher of the two, and 3) Bug types get screwed, as is the Gen 1 tradion.
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I would add "if it evolves from a Gen I Pokemon, use the pattern of the Gen I Pokemon as the base". (ie Chansey's Special became its Special Defense, so Blissey and Happiny convert their Special Defense to their Special stat) Barring cases where the evolution is an entirely different direction, at least -Politoed is Specially weighted vs Poliwrath being Physical, so it probably makes more sense to give Politoed a higher Special stat even if it runs contrary to Poliwag and Poliwhirl's pattern.

I don't have the team to go over all the Gen I-connected families right now, unfortunately, but glad to see this going in effect!

Also, on the color stuff, I actually meant coloring cells X to mean "it learns this in Gen VI, so it gets it in this Pet Mod" while coloring cells Y to mean "It doesn't have a 'hard' reason to learn this, but people think it should learn this".
 
Umbreon cannot have 95/65/110/130/65 stats, even though that is a logical overwrite for its stats. This makes it exceed the stat total of other Eeveelutions. In gen 1, Eeveelutions' base stats choose from the following set of values:
60
65
65
110
130

The 95 stat was added in Gen 2 with the Special Attack/Special Defence stat split. As a result, Umbreon's stats must be redistributed in some way to remove the base 95 and add the base 60.

The easiest substitution is 60/65/110/130/65, which directly replaces extraneous 95 with the missing 60. However, this has a drastic effect on Umbreon's tanking abilities.

Also, while we're on the subject:

Leafeon: 65/110/130/65/60
Glaceon: 65/60/110/130/65

Sylveon originally had 95/65/65/110/130/60. That means its Special stat is either 110 or 130. Making it 110 means we have a spare base 130. Making it 130 means we have a spare base 110. Either way, the 95 in HP has to go, because 95 was not in the Eeveelutions' list of possible base stats in Gen 1. As a result, the two main candidate stat spreads are:
110/65/65/130/60
and
130/65/65/110/60
Personally, I think the first of the two makes the most sense.

Oh and by the way, Glaceon's new stats are pretty awesome.
 
Ghoul King said:
Also, on the color stuff, I actually meant coloring cells X to mean "it learns this in Gen VI, so it gets it in this Pet Mod" while coloring cells Y to mean "It doesn't have a 'hard' reason to learn this, but people think it should learn this".
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Sorry, I misunderstood. I think I'll just keep it like this, as the distinction doesn't matter in the long run -- it learns it either way.

NinjaStars said:
I think Megas shouldn't be on metagame. This is because there are no items so that means no Mega Stones.
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Think of Mega evolutions as actual evolutions in this meta -- they count as separate Pokemon, and don't require any sort of item or change. This means you can run a team with Charizard, Mega Charizard X and Mega Charizard Y, if you so desire.
The Reptile said:
Body Slam, Submisson, and Bubble Beam are finish. I might of overlooked some things though but yeah I think the move distribution seems right.

Also feel kind of bad for hogging it but w/e
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Don't feel guilty, you're a big help!

The spreadsheet has been opened for Counter, Seismic Toss and Mega Drain. I decided to delete Rage because, while technically not outclassed by anything, there's really no reason to use it and if I recall its mechanics are actually really bugged out in Gen 1. If someone really wants it back I can add it again.

ALSO: On the topic of certain legendaries being good -- there will almost certainly be a banning phase once movesets, stats and typings are finalized. If Mewtwo was banned in Gen 1, than you can bet Mega Mewtwo Y and his broke-ass 194 Special no-item bullshit gets the boot too. Why am I adding them in the first place, then? Well -- I'd like to keep an Ubers tier open as well. Don't tell me this is too good for standard play:

+6 252 SpA Mewtwo Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Mewtwo Y: 161-190 (38.7 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

OG Mewtwo can't 2HKO MMY with 3 Amnesia boosts, accounting for stat changes and max EVs in every stat. Gen Wun Anything Goes, anyone?
 
FlameUser64 said:
Umbreon cannot have 95/65/110/130/65 stats, even though that is a logical overwrite for its stats. This makes it exceed the stat total of other Eeveelutions. In gen 1, Eeveelutions' base stats choose from the following set of values:
60
65
65
110
130

The 95 stat was added in Gen 2 with the Special Attack/Special Defence stat split. As a result, Umbreon's stats must be redistributed in some way to remove the base 95 and add the base 60.

The easiest substitution is 60/65/110/130/65, which directly replaces extraneous 95 with the missing 60. However, this has a drastic effect on Umbreon's tanking abilities.

Also, while we're on the subject:

Leafeon: 65/110/130/65/60
Glaceon: 65/60/110/130/65

Sylveon originally had 95/65/65/110/130/60. That means its Special stat is either 110 or 130. Making it 110 means we have a spare base 130. Making it 130 means we have a spare base 110. Either way, the 95 in HP has to go, because 95 was not in the Eeveelutions' list of possible base stats in Gen 1. As a result, the two main candidate stat spreads are:
110/65/65/130/60
and
130/65/65/110/60
Personally, I think the first of the two makes the most sense.

Oh and by the way, Glaceon's new stats are pretty awesome.
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No, it would be way better to just keep the evolutions to doing the way they were, doing this type of stuff just to appease to flavor just waste time that could be used for other stuff in the project (In this case, the TM project)
 
FlameUser64 said:
[Eeveelution stuff]
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I'm not going to be doing individual redistribution -- I'm only going to change the Special. While the total or individual values may not have existed for Gen 1 eeveelutions, there's no real reason why there couldn't have been a Ghost evolution with a different stat spread. If we get too attached to details like these, I'd have to start questioning what type combinations I'm allowed to use to stay faithful. Should I change Tornadus to Normal/Flying, as that fits with Gen 1 trend closer? Fire/Fighting wasn't a combination used in Gen 1, so do I have to change all those starters? Even if we're talking stat trends, every starter in Gen 1 has a base total of 425. Should I hold true to that as well? Not criticizing you or anything, I'm just pointing out that I'll need to make some sacrifices to prevent this from being a micromanaged nightmare.
 
Just saying that Seismic Toss was a Move Tutor move in Generation III, so technically we should alreay have that for the Gen 2 and 3 pokes
 
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Updates!

- I made an additional note in the OP that Smeargle can now learn any Gen 1 move naturally, to prevent a loophole where he'd have no moves.
- Gen 4 Special stats released! Again, did these fast and somewhat arbitrarily, so point out anything that doesn't add up.
- Mega Drain learnset complete! Someone did most of the work, so I finished off the last few rows and locked them.
- Mimic learnset complete! Spoiler: anyone that can use TMs can learn this.
- Dragon Rage and Fissure opened for edit!
- Some Special changes -- I realized that even if I'm not changing their whole spread, Umbreon and Espeon should at least draw from the same stat -- Glaceon and Leafeon do the same, of course.
 
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Depending on how terrible Ice is in Gen 1 and how terrible its movepool is with only Gen 1 moves, Glaceon could actually be really scary with its spread I think. Keep in mind I was never really into Gen 1 myself, so I could be completely wrong.
 
Ice is actually not terrible in Gen 1. While it still only resists Ice (which is actually good in this meta, since the only things that resist Ice are Water and Ice), it's Fire and Fighting weaknesses aren't really relevant due to how bad those types are (Fighting is bad because Psychic is the best type in the game, while Fire is not good because it's offensive coverage is...ok, I guess, while having 3 extremely common weaknesses). Rock is probably biggest problem Ice has as a type. Meanwhile it's still one of the greatest offensive types, especially with the new influx of Dragon-types.

So yea, Ice isn't the worst type ever in Gen 1.

EDIT: Finished up Counter and Seismic Toss.

EDIT2: Dragon Rage and Fissure are done as well
 
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The Reptile said:
EDIT: Finished up Counter and Seismic Toss.

EDIT2: Dragon Rage and Fissure are done as well
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Great work! I've opened up Bide, Metronome, Selfdestruct and Egg Bomb, though you should probably take a break haha.

As a side note: I've deleted Psywave for the same reason as Rage.

Also -- I've released the full document for Special stats! Gens 5 and 6 are now included, and I edited some of the Gen 4 stats. Let me know if anything looks fishy, I tried to be as fair as possible.
 
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