Gen Wun (4/29: Final Quick Bans)

[canno]

Another factor that helps Hoopa-U is that despite its low physical bulk, it's also immune to Fighting and (much more importantly) Normal, also know as the second best type in the game. This means it can shrug off Hyper Beams, Body Slams, and Submissions by being flat-out immune to it. Additionally, it's not weak to EQ or Rock Slide so its can take an unSTAB'd EQ / Rock Slide from Normal-types and just nuke shit with Psychic. It can also "counter" some other Psychic-types due to its high Special and its mixed offenses.

 

[Jajoken]

Important update! After changing Deoxys-D, I realized that my Special stats for gen 1 megas may have been erroneous. I was just picking the higher stat between Special Attack and Special Defense, when really I should have been picking the same stat as the base form in the transition between gen 1 and 2. While I did this for the later gen megas, the gen 1 megas had some inflated stats. Unlike my somewhat arbitrary choice of stats for other Pokemon, the gen 1 Special -> Special Attack/Defense is already set in stone.

Long story short, several of the gen 1 megas have been nerfed, most notably Charizard-MY and Slowbro-M, who is currently up to be banned. While it still has access to high physical defense and Amnesia, it's Special is now 80, which is the same as basic Slowbro in gen 1. While this may still make it a threat, it may no longer be Quick Ban worthy. If you have already voted, you may change your vote (or leave it the same, if you still think Slowbro-M is worth the ban).

 

[Jajoken]

First slate complete! Both Deoxys forms, Hoopa Unbound and Mega Alakazam have been banned, while Mega Slowbro survives due to its nerf.

...and next slate is up! Just Arceus this time -- all of them. Keep in mind that not all of these are banworthy: I think Arceus-Bug can remain without causing too much trouble. Vote by Wednesday night at midnight.

 

[canno]

Let's talk types.

First of all, I can confidently say Fire is the second worst type in RBY. While Fighting is weak to Psychic, at least it has a useful resistance to Rock and actually has a niche in being the only type to smack Normal Super Effectively. Fire doesn't have this trait. All of its resistances are kind of lame (Bug, Grass, and Fire) and not that common as offensive typings, the most common one being Grass. Meanwhile it weak to almost all the common offensive typings - Water, Rock, and Ground. And that's terrible. It's not even the offensive typing we knew it as - It only hits Bug, Grass, and Ice SE. Mono-Fire is terrible.

Fighting is also pretty bad, but its only situationally bad. The only reason Fighting is considered awful is because of its weakness to the best type in the game. It still hits not only Normal-types but also Rock-types SE. Ice is also nice, but those two are much more important. I wouldn't want to be a Fighting-type, but if I was it wouldn't be all bad - at least I'd get STAB on Submission. Meanwhile, Poison (The absolute worst type in the game, sadly ;_;) is just plain awful. Funnily enough, it's basically a worst Fire and objectively a worst Ghost. Offensively it does everything Fire does but worst (doesn't hit Ice, resisted by 4 common types vs Fire's 3). Meanwhile, it's only claim to fame is the resistance to Fighting...which is done better by Ghost (I'd argue Bug too but most new Fighting-types have Rock Slide iirc.). Also its best STAB is Sludge, so even if it was a good offensive typing (its not) it would have a shitty base 65 STAB that not even every poison-type gets. The cherry on top of the shit sundae though is that weakness to Psychic, sealing the deal on its placement as the worst typing.

Bug is kind of weird. It would be a great typing offensively due to its niche of hitting Psychics Super Effectively, except the best Bug STAB is Pin Missle, which not even all Bugs get. Defensively though it's not awful. Its Ground resistance is neat, although Rock Slide on Ground-types is now common, but they are unSTAB'd and the Ground resist is still nice overall, especially if you're Rock / Bug. Fighting resist is actually not that terrible, as Submissions are going to be thrown around. Psychic does it better but Psychic doesn't resist Ground as well so its a plus. Grass resist isn't notable - everything resists Grass. While it does have 4 weaknesses, only 2 really matter - Flying and Rock (Poison and Fire don't). And Flying isn't even that bad, since the best STAB Flying has is Drill Peck which, again, not all Flying-types have. So really the most important one is Rock. Not bad, Bug. However, I still think mono-Bug is kind of mediocre due to no good STAB and its resists kind of failing it when you see those weaknesses. It's much better as a secondary type to something like Rock / Bug. Still, Mono-Bug isn't bad - just kind of underwhelming. Also keep in mind no STAB =/= no good offensive presence. Look at Gengar.

Let's keep on the typings with no good STAB - Ghost is really fucking good. It has immunities to the 2nd best typing in the game and Fighting, which would be the perfect 2 move coverage with Normal if Ghost didn't exist. It's poison resist is not notable in the slightest but its there. It also has no Weakness! Ok that's technically wrong - its weak to Ghost. However, a problem with Ghost is also a great boon. The only attacking Ghost moves are Night Shade (a Seismic Toss clone) and Lick, which is fucking Lick. Even a Super Effective Lick is weaker than most neutral moves. So essentially Ghost has no weaknesses. Offensively its bad obviously - even if it did have a good STAB the only thing it hits is Ghost while the two best types in the game are flat-out immune. Mono-Ghost can work as a defensive typing, especially if it got on something with high bulk (like, say, 120/120/120 bulk. Wink Wink)

Dragon is in a similar boat to Ghost - great defensive typing, would be great offensive typing. Dragon Rage is a shitty move, and the only Dragon-type move period. However, it has good resistances in Electric and Water (Grass is alright, and Fire is lol), and it only has one weakness in Ice. Works much better as a combo type but mono Dragon isn't awful. Not much else to say here.

Grass gets walled by fucking everything (6 resists and 4 that really matter), and has a ton of weaknesses. What keeps Grass floating offensively is niches, mainly its countering abilities to Water. Offensively it hits Rock and Grounds SE and (much more importantly) Water. Meanwhile it also resist Water, making it a decent enough answer to Water. Well, except most of them get Ice Beam, but shh. While it has 5 weaknesses, only 2 matter (weakness to Bug, Fire, and Poison are mostly irrelevant.) - Ice and Flying, and again with Bug Flying only kind of matters. Yet again like Bug though, that Ice weakness hurts it a lot due to it being common coverage on the things it wants to wall. Defensively, its resist are pretty good - Electric, Water and Ground are pretty good. Grass is...eh.

I'm too lazy to do the rest right now, but I do think the rest are good typings (yes, even Ice. I should probably do a paragraph on Ice later)

 

[Ghoul King]

Normal Arceus is denied Extreme Speed Killer Arceus, so even though it also doesn't have to worry about Close Combat etc, it's noticeably debuffed, even before items. In fact, it doesn't even get Quick Attack! There's also no Return/Frustration, so its core offense is bad until you look at Hyper Beam and remember that it's buggy/broken. It's also still Arceus in a not-100%-terrible type, so yeah. Also, this is Gen I, so it's going to crit you nearly 25% of the time. Yaaaay.

Fire Arceus gets Fire Blast. Yeah, Fire as a type is bad in Gen I, but Fire Blast is, by far, the best of the inaccurate-but-powerful Special moves.

Electric Arceus gets Thunderbolt as STAB, only has one weakness (Albeit to the best Physical move after Hyper Beam), and just generally invalidates most Electric types by existing. See you in Ubers!

Ice Arceus of course gets Ice Beam. Ice is even better as an offensive typing in Gen I, and slightly less terrible defensively because Steel doesn't exist yet.

Water Arceus is here to make everybody cry. And remember, Arceus gets Recover.

Grass Arceus actually gets Solar Beam, for what that's worth. Even so, it can still use all of Arceus' movepool, just with a bad STAB.

Rock Arceus is one of the best defensive types in Gen I (Screw your Hyper Beams!), gets STAB Rock Slide, and just generally laughs at OU stuff.

Ground Arceus is one of the best attacking types ever, and immunity to Electric is good. And yes it gets Earthquake.

Bug Arceus has a godawful typing of godawfulness that it gets no STAB for. This doesn't matter a lot because Arceus still has a perfect movepool and more stats than anything that isn't a blatant Uber.

Poison Arceus laughs at the idea that you will kill it with your puny Toxic, killing any possibility of stopping it from simply Recovering through your damage and killing you. Poison is kind of an important type, dudes.

Flying Arceus is one of the best types ever, albeit with zero STAB. Also in Gen Wun there's actually lots of Rock attacks being thrown around. But it's still Arceus.

Dragon Arceus is arguably one of the worse options... but it's still Arceus...

Fighting Arceus doesn't have STAB unless we gave it STAB (I have no idea) and will die horribly to the real gods, but it's still Arceus.

Ghost Arceus is just silly stupid walling material. It'll be cool to see it in Ubers.

Psychic Arceus is the One True God, made in the darkness to bind the... wait that's Lord of the Rings... um. Yeah, say hello to Death Incarnate, sidekick to Mega Alakazam. (But at least Psychic Arceus has actual bulk)

 

[canno]

Toxic is crap in RBY though, since it just resets to normal Poison when switching out, so Poison Arceus would still be able to just recover any attempts to kill it. Hell almost all Pokemon would take Poison over anything - even Paralysis, which is what most mons use as their status move of choice. Also Normal Arceus might not be the EKiller we know him as today, but its literally a better Tauros, who is (arguably) the king of OU

Poison is literally the worst type in RBY.

 

[Isa]

There are so many inaccuracies in the posts here that you shouldn't post unless you've read up on the mechanical differences between gen 1 and 6.

Allow Bug Poison Dragon and Fighting. Enslave the rest.

That being said someone should run calcs.

 

[canno]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with Ghoul King on some points here. Also will bring discussion before its time to go in. Should of done this sooner but w/e

Normal Arceus is denied Extreme Speed Killer Arceus, so even though it also doesn't have to worry about Close Combat etc, it's noticeably debuffed, even before items. In fact, it doesn't even get Quick Attack! There's also no Return/Frustration, so its core offense is bad until you look at Hyper Beam and remember that it's buggy/broken. It's also still Arceus in a not-100%-terrible type, so yeah. Also, this is Gen I, so it's going to crit you nearly 25% of the time. Yaaaay.

You do realize that Normal is the second best offensive type in RBY, right? There are two different mons that give Zam competition for the King of RBY - Tauros and Chansey. I'd argue that Arceus is basically Tauros and Chansey put together into one disgusting monster. Who cares if it only has Body Slam and Hyper Beam - that was the norm back then! It doesn't need ESpeed when Priority was basicalyl limited to Quick Attack and it has 120 speed.

Fire Arceus gets Fire Blast. Yeah, Fire as a type is bad in Gen I, but Fire Blast is, by far, the best of the inaccurate-but-powerful Special moves.

This is completely wrong. Hydro Pump (arguably - trades 5% accuracy for being a good type) and Blizzard (it has 90 Acc and is a really good offensive type) are better than it in every way. I don't think Arceus has Hydro but it definitely has Blizzard. Fire is all-round bad.

Ice Arceus of course gets Blizzard. Ice is even better as an offensive typing in Gen I, and slightly less terrible defensively because Steel doesn't exist yet.

Fixed that for you. Also, Ice was good not only because Steel isn't a thing, although it certainly helps a lot.

Bug Arceus has a godawful typing of godawfulness that it gets no STAB for. This doesn't matter a lot because Arceus still has a perfect movepool and more stats than anything that isn't a blatant Uber.

Bug is not as bad as a type as you might think. It's basically a slightly worst Flying, since at least some Flying-types get Drill Peck. The only reason why Bug seems bad is because all of the old RBY bugs were trash. That said, I can see Bugceus in OU.

Poison Arceus laughs at the idea that you will kill it with your puny Toxic, killing any possibility of stopping it from simply Recovering through your damage and killing you. Poison is kind of an important type, dudes.

Already responded to this - Toxic is shit in RBY. Like, you're helping your opponent shit. Being immune to Toxic is not a bonus. Any Arceus from can stall the same way you say Poison can when even when Poisoned because the "Toxic" poison goes away after switching. If anything a poisoned Arceus can do it even more effectively now that you can't Paralyze it and bank on Parahax or bank on freezing with a Blizzard.

Flying Arceus is one of the best types ever, albeit with zero STAB. Also in Gen Wun there's actually lots of Rock attacks being thrown around. But it's still Arceus.

I don't see how Flying is "one of the best types ever" when Bug is "terrible", since defensively they're the same and offensively Arceus can't learn Drill Peck.

Dragon Arceus is arguably one of the worse options... but it's still Arceus...

Dragon is really good defensively though, walling Water, Electric, and (to a lesser extent) Grass and Fire. Meanwhile it only has 1 weakness. Sure, it has no offensive STAB, but it still has a decent enough defensive typing.

Fighting Arceus doesn't have STAB unless we gave it STAB (I have no idea) and will die horribly to the real gods, but it's still Arceus.

Pretty sure we gave it Submission, and Arceus might actually be too good with this. Yes, Psychic resists and hits it Super Effectively - it also bops Rock- and Normal-types which are common in the meta with STAB Submission. This is a pretty big "no thanks" to me.

 

[Disaster Area]

I recommend checking out this: http://mount-silver.proboards.com/board/11/rby-251 RBY 251 is the same thing but only covers up to GSC, you can see how Crystal_ (a top RBY and GSC player btw) worked out the decision to give speical stats, signature moves, etc. It's nearly available on my PS server. vm me if u want to know when it is implemented functionally, but otherwise I leave this as some precedent, and it might give you some ideas and inspiration :)

snip

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-best-types-in-history-round-1-rby.3528847/ this has like 4 pages worth of discussion on the types in RBY ;]

anyway if you include signature moves, Bug gets a ton better cos of Megahorn Heracross.

 

[Ghoul King]

This is completely wrong. Hydro Pump (arguably - trades 5% accuracy for being a good type) and Blizzard (it has 90 Acc and is a really good offensive type) are better than it in every way. I don't think Arceus has Hydro but it definitely has Blizzard. Fire is all-round bad.

Forgot about Blizzard being stupid-good in Gen I, but Fire Blast also has a 30% chance to Burn in Gen I, which is a non-trivial benefit, especially when Hyper Beam spam is everywhere.

Bug is not as bad as a type as you might think. It's basically a slightly worst Flying, since at least some Flying-types get Drill Peck. The only reason why Bug seems bad is because all of the old RBY bugs were trash. That said, I can see Bugceus in OU.

Offensively Bug is sort of nifty, since it hits Poison super effectively instead of ineffectively and the Steel type doesn't exist yet, except it also doesn't have the Dark type to hit super effectively and is overall pretty bad. It's less shit than modern Bug (No Fairy to resist it, for one), but it's mainly notable in Gen I for being the only thing that hits Psychic super-effectively, which isn't that impressive when Pin Missile is crap and is its best overall option. Defensively, Bug is actively worse than in later generations (For all that Poison weakness isn't actually a big deal because lol Sludge) and is flat-out "Flying, but worse" when it comes to its positives. (And they're still both vulnerable to Rock, which is going to be a lot more problematic in Gen Wun than Gen I) In particular, Ground immunity is far more useful than Ground resistance. Especially with constant crits everywhere.

Already responded to this - Toxic is shit in RBY. Like, you're helping your opponent shit. Being immune to Toxic is not a bonus. Any Arceus from can stall the same way you say Poison can when even when Poisoned because the "Toxic" poison goes away after switching. If anything a poisoned Arceus can do it even more effectively now that you can't Paralyze it and bank on Parahax or bank on freezing with a Blizzard.

Toxic is weird in Gen I. It's usually bad, but it still retains its utility of being able to force things out that want to stay in, and unlike later generations it at least is always superior to regular Poisoning.

You can also Haze away the enemy's major status ailment, when in later generations Burn and Poisoning are flatly impossible to remove from an opponent. It's roundabout, and Gen I is sufficiently offensively slanted that it's probably not worth it, but it's something.

 

[Disaster Area]

Toxic is weird in Gen I. It's usually bad, but it still retains its utility of being able to force things out that want to stay in, and unlike later generations it at least is always superior to regular Poisoning.

You can also Haze away the enemy's major status ailment, when in later generations Burn and Poisoning are flatly impossible to remove from an opponent. It's roundabout, and Gen I is sufficiently offensively slanted that it's probably not worth it, but it's something.

When you switch out then back in it becomes regular poisoning, doing 1/16th damage per turn.

It's pretty clear you have hardly any experience of the RBY metagame .-.

It's hard to say what this meta's going to be like but in RBY OU burning is absolutely shite and should be avoided at almost all costs. Burning a starmie/chansey means that you basically lose fyi. I guess there's likely to be some equivalent in this meta.

 

[Ghoul King]

In what way does that invalidate anything I said?

 

[canno]

I can't post much on my phone, but I will say that burning something is really bad. Same with Poison. If something is poisoned or burned it means that it can't be para'd, frozen, or put to sleep. Burn is only slightly better than Poison, both Toxic and Normal (might as well be the same thing...)

 

[Ghoul King]

Derp forgot part of why Burn is non-notable is stat modification (any stat modification, not just of Attack!) will remove the Burn-based damage drop, because Gen I is a buggy piece of shit.

Never mind that then.

Though if you modify your stats when your opponent is Burned, it will re-halve their Attack, so there's that.

 

[canno]

Ok now that I have a computer I can do a proper response.

Forgot about Blizzard being stupid-good in Gen I, but Fire Blast also has a 30% chance to Burn in Gen I, which is a non-trivial benefit, especially when Hyper Beam spam is everywhere.

Like I said before, Burn is really bad, and the fact that Fire Blast has a 30% Burn chance is actually really bad for the move. At first that might seem silly, but you have to realize what's actually switching in on your Fire Blast. It's usually going to be something with high Special, like (and these are RBY examples) Chansey or Starmie (Rhydon won't switch in due to it still taking a nice chunk because of its low special). Burning these things is really bad because you can no longer Paralyze, Sleep, or Freeze them, and these three are the most important statuses. Starmie and Chansey would love to take your burn, and basically lets them beat your own Chansey / Starmie / Special Attacker because they can Freeze / Paralyze you. I will admit that Burn is a little better here since we now have Rock-types with high special but even then a Paralyze would be much better.

Offensively Bug is sort of nifty, since it hits Poison super effectively instead of ineffectively and the Steel type doesn't exist yet, except it also doesn't have the Dark type to hit super effectively and is overall pretty bad. It's less shit than modern Bug (No Fairy to resist it, for one), but it's mainly notable in Gen I for being the only thing that hits Psychic super-effectively, which isn't that impressive when Pin Missile is crap and is its best overall option. Defensively, Bug is actively worse than in later generations (For all that Poison weakness isn't actually a big deal because lol Sludge) and is flat-out "Flying, but worse" when it comes to its positives. (And they're still both vulnerable to Rock, which is going to be a lot more problematic in Gen Wun than Gen I) In particular, Ground immunity is far more useful than Ground resistance. Especially with constant crits everywhere.

No one said anything about offensive bug. Offensive bug is trash because no moves. Defensively it's not a "shitty flying-type: simply due to the fact that it's not weak to BoltBeam. This is actually kind of big. Again, Bug only has a bad rep because the Gen 1 Bugs are shit, but something like Bugceus (which again I voted for unban) would be interesting.

Toxic is weird in Gen I. It's usually bad, but it still retains its utility of being able to force things out that want to stay in, and unlike later generations it at least is always superior to regular Poisoning.

No it doesn't, and no it isn't. You only get badly poisoned as long as you stay in - the second you switch you get normal poisoning again. Being forced to switch out once is very much worth getting Poisoned, as again you're immune to all the other actually detrimental statuses. This is doubly true for mons with a Recovery move, like Arceus. There isn't a single mon in RBY that uses Toxic and that's not going to change in this meta, unlike Burn which might be useful to burn Rock-types with high enough Special to take a Fire Blast (like Rockceus, but that's not going to be unbanned)

You can also Haze away the enemy's major status ailment, when in later generations Burn and Poisoning are flatly impossible to remove from an opponent. It's roundabout, and Gen I is sufficiently offensively slanted that it's probably not worth it, but it's something.

Nothing uses Haze in RBY (at least to my knowledge) so I don't get your point.

Derp forgot part of why Burn is non-notable is stat modification (any stat modification, not just of Attack!) will remove the Burn-based damage drop, because Gen I is a buggy piece of shit.

Never mind that then.

Though if you modify your stats when your opponent is Burned, it will re-halve their Attack, so there's that.

No, that is not why Burn sucks (although it certainly doesn't help). It sucks because most of the things switching into Fire Blast are special attackers that would love to take your burn due to immunity to the actually good statuses. It's also not that burn is "non-notable" - its that Burn is detrimental most of the time (again, this might change a bit here due to Rock-types that would like to switch into Fire Blast because of higher special, but I still think it will overall be terrible)

 

[Ghoul King]

OK. Why, exactly, are most of your points centered around "in the actual RBY metagame" with little acknowledgment of the fact that this is Gen Wun? Laser-precision knowledge of RBY's metagame is not going to serve you that well in this meta -some things obviously don't really change (Replace "Chansey" with "Blissey" in any sentence and assume superior performance) but this is not Gen I, it's Gen Wun.

It's great that you know the RBY meta better than I do, but you keep making points centered around "This matchup" or "This Pokemon", which is extremely suspect when we're going from 151 Pokemon to more than 700, with substantial shifts in move access and archetype existence. The mechanics I'm getting wrong? Yeah, fair enough. But "Burn is bad in Gen Wun because Burn is bad in Gen I because matchups" is very sketchy.

Nothing uses Haze in RBY (at least to my knowledge) so I don't get your point.

What, nobody likes being able to wipe Screens? Really? Why?

No it doesn't, and no it isn't.

So Toxic isn't superior to regular Poisoning... because it becomes regular Poisoning on a switch... no.

Toxic is bad? Sure. Toxic isn't superior to regular Poisoning? How??

 

[canno]

OK. Why, exactly, are most of your points centered around "in the actual RBY metagame" with little acknowledgment of the fact that this is Gen Wun? Laser-precision knowledge of RBY's metagame is not going to serve you that well in this meta -some things obviously don't really change (Replace "Chansey" with "Blissey" in any sentence and assume superior performance) but this is not Gen I, it's Gen Wun.

Because its the closes meta to compare at the moment, as we can't actually play this yet. Most of what I say still will most likely apply in Gen Wun though - adding some mons doesn't change the mechanics of how the game work. When I compare it to RBY, I compare it mostly to RBY mechanically, which is the same here. They might be different metas but mechanically they're the same (or at least should be)

It's great that you know the RBY meta better than I do, but you keep making points centered around "This matchup" or "This Pokemon", which is extremely suspect when we're going from 151 Pokemon to more than 700, with substantial shifts in move access and archetype existence. The mechanics I'm getting wrong? Yeah, fair enough. But "Burn is bad in Gen Wun because Burn is bad in Gen I because matchups" is very sketchy.

I only used specific mons as an example of it working in a meta that's mechanically the same (RBY). My main point was that mons with big Special will be switching into your Fire Blast, thus giving them an immunity to the actually good statuses. I even added that Burn might be a bit better in Gen Wun than in RBY if, as it can burn Rock-types with high special that now exist.

What, nobody likes being able to wipe Screens? Really? Why?

Because Screens don't work like they do in later gens. Screens only apply to the mon that used them. Or in other words

"Reflect and Light Screen double the user's Defense instead of halving the opponent's Attack. Both moves are permanent until switching out. A critical hit will also ignore them, and Haze cancels them."

Hazing screens is not useful enough for it to be worth running.

So Toxic isn't superior to regular Poisoning... because it becomes regular Poisoning on a switch... no.

Toxic is bad? Sure. Toxic isn't superior to regular Poisoning? How??

Technically Toxic does less damage the first 1-2 turns (I think this carries over to RBY), so technically you're doing less damage. I will admit that you're mostly right, as at least Toxic forces a switch at one point. That point doesn't matter though. The main point was that Toxic and Poison in general is shit.

 

[Ghoul King]

No, Toxic is 100% superior in Gen I. In Gen I, all residual damage effects are 1/16th a turn, and then the "Toxic counter" raises (all of them, though only Leech Seed can abuse this glitch readily) it by an additional 1/16th each turn that passes. It's Gen II onward that regular Poison is 1/8th while Toxic still starts from 1/16th and thus does less damage initially.

 

[canno]

Ah, alright. Then yes, Toxic is better than Normal Poison.

EDIT: I'm going to use this to say something - maybe we shouldn't let any Arceus in?

Mewtwo Psychic vs. Arceus-Poison: 234-276 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yea 120/120/120 bulk is a bit insane, even on a mon with shitty typing. Remember it also gets Recover. Dunno how I feel about it now. I'll probably keep my vote as it is, but I have a feeling Arceus might be the first suspect when the actual meta comes in, regardless of type.

To play around with more calcs, go here (they have a RBY tab on the top)

 

[Disaster Area]

yah why is someone making a mod to have all stuff with RBY mechanics when they don't even know the details of the mechanics?

 

[Jajoken]

yah why is someone making a mod to have all stuff with RBY mechanics when they don't even know the details of the mechanics?

Me? I haven't been arguing anything. I'm literally just transplanting new Pokemon into the framework of the old games. The discussion of the metagame is up to the community, and hopefully a few people know enough about the old mechanics that they can theorize what impact these new editions will have on the meta. Also -- I didn't start this project because I love the RBY mechanics. They're broken as shit (though in a charming way). My aim is simply to recreate ORAS with with restrictions of each successive generation, starting with the first one, logically.

 

[Disaster Area]

Me? I haven't been arguing anything. I'm literally just transplanting new Pokemon into the framework of the old games. The discussion of the metagame is up to the community, and hopefully a few people know enough about the old mechanics that they can theorize what impact these new editions will have on the meta. Also -- I didn't start this project because I love the RBY mechanics. They're broken as shit (though in a charming way). My aim is simply to recreate ORAS with with restrictions of each successive generation, starting with the first one, logically.

sorry then

sounds good. You had a look at the link about RBY 251 though?

Also imo formes that require items to access (mega evos, arceus forms, primals, gira-O, etc.) shouldn't be usable in any sense

 

[Jajoken]

sorry then

sounds good. You had a look at the link about RBY 251 though?

Also imo formes that require items to access (mega evos, arceus forms, primals, gira-O, etc.) shouldn't be usable in any sense

Someone linked it earlier. It's cool, but I disagree with adding "signature moves" in that they completely shift the dynamics of the game. Megahorn existing is a huge nerf to Psychics, for instance. Not what I'm trying to accomplish here.

My reasoning is that for the context of this mod, Mega Blastoise is just the evolution of Blastoise, for instance. I want to have as many Pokemon usable as possible. When we get to Gen 3, the first gen to have in-battle form changes, I have a plan on how to incorporate gen 4-6 alternate forms and Megas. For now, think of them as their own entity.

 

[Ghoul King]

yah why is someone making a mod to have all stuff with RBY mechanics when they don't even know the details of the mechanics?

I don't know the details of the meta, which is an entirely different thing from not knowing the details of the mechanics. (Though I definitely mix up or forget details, especially the largely irrelevant ones -I had originally planned on talking about how "Hoopa's double Ghost weakness is totally irrelevant!" until I remembered that wait, Gen I is a buggy piece of shit and Psychic is immune to Ghost) Not that I made this anyway, either.

Jajoken I've been meaning to ask but keep forgetting: in cases of move-alikes, is there any intention to treat them like the moves they are identical to for learning purposes? I'm thinking of Slack Off to Recover at the moment (That is, would Slaking having Slack Off translate into Slaking having Recover/Softboiled here?), but there are probably other cases.

Also, general meta commentary: it occurred to me that Mega Aerodactyl is a cool Slash user wait shit it doesn't learn that.

... why doesn't Aerodactyl learn Slash? What the heck. :(

Also yeah on Arceus I voted "Ban" for all because, seriously, 120 all.

 

[Jajoken]

Jajoken I've been meaning to ask but keep forgetting: in cases of move-alikes, is there any intention to treat them like the moves they are identical to for learning purposes? I'm thinking of Slack Off to Recover at the moment (That is, would Slaking having Slack Off translate into Slaking having Recover/Softboiled here?), but there are probably other cases.

I wasn't planning that...I guess I'm not entirely opposed to it. It does slightly go against flavor...and any Flying type instantly gets Recover. I don't know, thoughts? I'd rather not, but I could be swayed.