General Suspect Discussion Thread

[jc104]

I'm going to have to bring this up again because after trying to ladder for it bit it's just making me extremely angry.

Sun is by far the worst thing in this metagame. Beating a rain team in rain is possible, sometimes even easy, while beating a sun team in the sun is extremely difficult, bordering on the impossible if the opponent is competent. I really think I could deal with the weather wars if it weren't for trappers - trappers change everything in a weather war, whilst doing fairly little else a lot of the time. This is the cause of the major "team matchup" problem that caused an enormous argument before - I don't really believe that "sand stall beats rain offense" or any of that (the sand isn't really what's allowing the win, merely that the stall team might have all of the offensive checks covered - for me the best team wins here). However, I do believe that in virtually every match involving a sun team, assuming vaguely competent play, the result may as well be pre-determined. If you run a rain or sand team with a dugtrio on it you're going to skittle almost every ridiculous sun team on the ladder, whilst significantly disadvantaging yourself against everything else, because Ninetales will more than likely get trapped before your weather starter can be removed. But if you don't, I suspect that you will lose to the majority of competent sun users unless you've gone severely out of your way. When I was using my rain team on the ladder I ran into a sun team with both gothitelle and dugtrio, a genesect, and a couple of scary sun sweepers - winning that game by doing anything other than trapping the opponent's ninetales would be nigh on impossible. I couldn't switch politoed in fearing a U-turn to gothitelle at any moment, and whenever I did get toed in ninetales just switches straight in because it can take absolutely everything politoed can throw at it. The opponent had thrown everything into winning the weather war and there was nothing I could do about it.

So in my opinion, if drought (and probably drizzle too, just because it might then be overpowered) doesn't go, we really seriously need to consider the banning of trappers - Dugtrio and Gothitelle especially (Wobb less so because it doesn't really beat weather inducers).

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Then the problem isn't in the sun itself, the problem is with the trappers. Alas, these trappers can also be used on any team other than sun teams, but the sun teams use it more often because winning weather wars for them is harder.

 

[Shurtugal]

A word on Genesect - it isn't broken. It can easily be played around. Seriously, especially the common scarf set. The problem with Gene is that most of its sets are choice locked (not saying it has to run a choice item: just that most do). Making moves like protect and recover easy methods to scout its move choice. Half the time they overpredict on something like Jellicent that goes for recover since it can take a thunderbolt decently enough to recover it off. Thats one example, offensive teams can easily outpace non-scarf Gene. Sun teams are killer for Gene in general, and I still say that no matter what set it runs Gene can't beat Tran (other than HP Ground, which is VERY effective, but I just don't equate it since its rarely used). Rain teams also can take it since most have electric absorbers (Gastro, Thundy-T, Ferro), and thats the only way it can really hurt rain (unless banded?) Sand teams have more trouble with it I suppose, but Lando out speeds non-scarf Gene. I think Gene is most effective when ran LO / EB with Rock Polish, or specs / band since it can actually break teams with download and its amazing coverage. It either breaks or Polishes for revenge sweeps, since I feel it SUCKS at being a revenge killer via scarf. Ok, maybe thats an overstatement, but I feel that you can't relaly abuse the boltbeam coverage with scarf like specs can (as it can easily punish everthing, especially if SE damage). Band is more for U-turn (which hurts probably everything). However, these Gene's are easily beaten by offensive teams (which are common), but they can force switches. I just don't think its broken enough, despite its greatest sets. Rock Polish only fails to kill stall, which has lowered in usage. Specs / Band are amazing though, or just LO attacker (if not U-turn you can go for HP Ground or RP).

Let me just summarize what I want to say: Offensive teams with high paced speed can easily beat Gene, especially protect scout sweepers (like Protect Tornadus). Stall can easily protect to see what choice move its locked into or recover up on a hit they can take to scout. It has many options (Like DNite), but it isn't broken by any means.

EDIT:

Hm? Sun is defenetly strong with its trappers. Maybe ban Trappers + Drought since trappers are only broken in sun?

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Ok I see how Genesect can be delt with for balanced teams, thanks for clearing that up. I still feel that its to over powered and versatile for the OU metagame and is an unhealthy force, especially u-turn abuse, but I can't say anything else that hasn't been debated before.

On the note of sun, honestly sun gets pretty predictable, all the other chloro-abusers are just offshoots of Venusaur, all you need is like a dragon and your fine, heck I used Zapdos to beat chloro-abuse for a good time. I know Heatan is the sun counter of choice and Dugtrio wrecks that, but seriously dugtrio isn't even that common to warrant a ban at all. That's like me complaining that magnezone is trapping all my dragon counters and wanting a ban on it.

I do think though a shadow tag ban should be considered if / when Chandelure is released, but at the moment, we have 3 trappers only one of which is OU, and barely that.

 

[Thorhammer]

I do think though a shadow tag ban should be considered if / when Chandelure is released, but at the moment, we have 3 trappers only one of which is OU, and barely that.

If Chandelure becomes broken with Shadow Tag, we will have to ban Chandelure. There is absolutely no justification for banning a non-broken ability on all Pokemon for the sake of one Pokemon. Especially since Gothitelle is quickly rising in importance in OU.

 

[Vemane]

I don't believe the discussion about sand veil, is whether all abusers are broken with it, instead, it is about whether Sand Veil detracts from the metagame significantly enough to be banned. However this is not the Sand Veil thread. That's a few inches down.

And yes, Cacturne is broken with Sand Veil.

Yes. Obviously this completely unsupported and quite radical statement is true. Duh!

And yes, Spinda is broken with contrary.

Just a note for future reference (on ALL parts of Smogon), when you are trying to prove a point, you normally use an "argument."

This "argument," to be successful, normally includes statistics, facts, proof (or even, you know, logic... or an explanation to begin with)

 

[Dinnerblaster]

I did change my team, and it does fine, but Life orb Thundurus can set up OBNOXIOUSLY fast. It has plenty of good coverage and boosting moves making it a HUGE troll to any kind of team! 145 base sp. attk plus nasty plot, and agility, plus boltbeam coverage makes a metagame an unhappy one!

 

[Lavos]

Okay, if we're talking about Shadow Tag, first let me note that, yes, Gothitelle is inferior to Chandelure, but it still does work. Its job is to completely destroy walls so other things can sweep, and it does its job very, very well. With a combination of 3 attacking moves + Trick, Gothitelle is able to either KO or incapacitate almost all of OU's premier walls, including but not limited to Gliscor, Skarmory, Slowbro, Jellicent, Celebi, , Amoonguss, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Chansey/Blissey. That is absolutely phenomenal. A core of Terrakion, Breloom, and Gothitelle can do serious damage to the current metagame, with most teams only carrying one or two "walls" at most, meant to stop certain things from sweeping. Once Gothitelle removes those Pokemon, the game is essentially over.

Am I right in thinking it deserves a suspect test? This is, of course, only my opinion, but I feel it's a justified one. I realize Tyranitar and Scizor do very well against Gothitelle, and that its usefulness is somewhat inhibited by that fact, but it still seems to open holes in teams a bit too well.

 

[chimpact]

Gothitelle is definitely effective. I mean it doesn't really matter if scizor and tyranitar do well against it, if it already took out a vital component to your defensive core.

Regarding sun teams, even with the trappers, they still struggle against some common pokemon like Mamoswine, CM Latias, Dragonite.

Rain and Sand teams are built to really take advantage of their weather. Sun teams are sort of anti-meta and really have to go out of their way to run certain sets or moves. For example a sun team running Volcarona might be forced to run a Rapid spinner on the team, while a rain team may not need one at all. If they do, they can just add in a Tentacruel which benefits greatly from the rain and thrives off it.

 

[/B/utterfree]

1. To those who claim that Tornadus-T is only useful on Rain: I don't use Tornadus-T in Rain. Instead, I use it in conjunction with other Regenerator Pokemon. For the purposes of the OU metagame, it has pardners in Slowking/Slowbro, Amoongus, and (if you want a 4th Regenerator) Mienshao. I use Slowking and Amoongus, while compensating for Ice weaknesses in the tri-core with Lucario, Weavile, and Volcarona, all of whom benefit from Regenerator switches greatly and sweep tremendously with help from the Regenerator Pokes I employ, and also can obliterate the few checks Tornadus-T legitimately has. Tornadus-T is broken, and it doesn't take Rain to make that be in plain view of the OU metagame.

2. I don't view Jirachi as broken: Perhaps it's because every time I see one I go to an Earthquake or HP Fire from my Abomasnow, or whichever Pokemon Jirachi tries to face off against. Other times, I make Jirachi wish it wasn't running SubCM. Jirachi may be one haxy piece of work, but it is fairly manageable. Sometimes I wish there was a supremely good Limber user so I could use it as an example of a hard counter to Jirachi's Paraflinch set. Nevertheless, I think Magic Guard users come fairly close to not caring about Paralysis. Pokes with Steadfast and Inner Focus also don't really feel too much trouble from flinches.

3. Deoxys-D? On what grounds is this Uber? I don't always see Deo-D, but when I do I always regret finding it hard to kill. I dunno, maybe I should use Whimsicott/Sableye/Tornadus-I more to Taunt the snot out of it in order to prevent hazards from occurring. However, I'd rather see more Deo-Ds in the ladder before I make any type of verdict on it.

4. Sableye isn't broken either: I'd rather use Whimsicott or Tornadus-I as Pranksters because they have more overall bulk and Speed, making it better for them to provide adequate support to the team via Tailwind, Taunt, Stun Spore, etc etc.

5. Garchomp should honestly just stay Uber: I see no point in undoing any bans previously made for the sake of trying to appease people's disdain for the Pokemon/"strategy" in question being banned. Garchomp can even get past Skarmory/Bronzong with Fire Blast, and OutQuake STAB is just too good in OU in combination with Garchomp's awesome stats.

6. Trappers aren't broken except for Wobbuffet: Encore is irrelevant to being guaranteed a free kill, especially not when one can just run multiple Encore users in one team and still run a different trapper to garner similar results. That said, Dugtrio, Magnezone, Gothitelle, and even Chandelure are more balanced by comparison (although a majority of even these trappers are still hazardous to the lower tiers). The former three are counterpicks anyway, and in DW OU there are better arguments for why ST Chandelure isn't broken that other people such as shrang and Matthew have made. I would in essence be agreeing with them for the most part. Ban Wobbuffet, but leave the others alone.

7. I know too little about Genesect or Keldeo to really comment about them. However, for the former I'd probably ban it on account of Bug/Steel and really intimidating mixed offenses alone.

As of right now, I won't nominate anything to be banned other than Wobbuffet and Tornadus-T.

 

[Tressed]

I'm going to have to bring this up again because after trying to ladder for it bit it's just making me extremely angry.

Sun is by far the worst thing in this metagame. Beating a rain team in rain is possible, sometimes even easy, while beating a sun team in the sun is extremely difficult, bordering on the impossible if the opponent is competent. I really think I could deal with the weather wars if it weren't for trappers - trappers change everything in a weather war, whilst doing fairly little else a lot of the time. This is the cause of the major "team matchup" problem that caused an enormous argument before - I don't really believe that "sand stall beats rain offense" or any of that (the sand isn't really what's allowing the win, merely that the stall team might have all of the offensive checks covered - for me the best team wins here). However, I do believe that in virtually every match involving a sun team, assuming vaguely competent play, the result may as well be pre-determined. If you run a rain or sand team with a dugtrio on it you're going to skittle almost every ridiculous sun team on the ladder, whilst significantly disadvantaging yourself against everything else, because Ninetales will more than likely get trapped before your weather starter can be removed. But if you don't, I suspect that you will lose to the majority of competent sun users unless you've gone severely out of your way. When I was using my rain team on the ladder I ran into a sun team with both gothitelle and dugtrio, a genesect, and a couple of scary sun sweepers - winning that game by doing anything other than trapping the opponent's ninetales would be nigh on impossible. I couldn't switch politoed in fearing a U-turn to gothitelle at any moment, and whenever I did get toed in ninetales just switches straight in because it can take absolutely everything politoed can throw at it. The opponent had thrown everything into winning the weather war and there was nothing I could do about it.

So in my opinion, if drought (and probably drizzle too, just because it might then be overpowered) doesn't go, we really seriously need to consider the banning of trappers - Dugtrio and Gothitelle especially (Wobb less so because it doesn't really beat weather inducers).

Sun is also god damn impossible for weatherless teams to face, especially the ones without many trappers, because they load up on Chlorophyll and Fire Pokes. It becomes impossible to beat them without making your team specifically able to beat them, at which point you become weak to many other things. I know I'll hear the argument, "Heatran blocks everything Sun can throw at it!" No. Any sun player who doesn't have a check or counter for Heatran did not think their team through and deverve to sit in front of Heatran and be walled. Venusaur takes exactly one turn to boost, and then it will promptly rip your team in half, unless you're using Mamoswine or possibly Heatran if Venusaur isn't running EQ. And taking Sun boosted Fire attacks from the likes of Infernape and Victini is extremely tough. Dragonite takes 40.67 - 48.18% from CB Victini in the sun, factoring an intact Multiscale. Of course Victini isn't that stupid outside of sun, its quite manageable, but that isn't the problem here.
The problem is that sun puts too much pressure on teams without a conflicting weather. Slower, bulkier teams can't take the boosted Fire moves, while faster, offensive teams can't keep up with Chlorophyll sweepers. Sure they can be revenged killed with priority, but of course the opponent just switches to a resist and nukes them. It stops nonweather teams from being at all viable, because now each time they will face a sun team, they will likely lose.

Regarding sun teams, even with the trappers, they still struggle against some common pokemon like Mamoswine, CM Latias, Dragonite.

Rain and Sand teams are built to really take advantage of their weather. Sun teams are sort of anti-meta and really have to go out of their way to run certain sets or moves. For example a sun team running Volcarona might be forced to run a Rapid spinner on the team, while a rain team may not need one at all. If they do, they can just add in a Tentacruel which benefits greatly from the rain and thrives off it.

These are good points, but the fact is that these Pokemon will have a tough time switching in at all. Mamoswine is weak to both Grass and Fire, although Thick Fat does relieve the Fire weakness somewhat, its not enough in the sun, even against weaker attacks. Latias is hit hard on the physical side, and will have trouble against Fire boosted attacks, although it can work against Chlorophyll users. Dragonite is excellent, or it would be, but everything that it would wall pack HP Ice or Stone Edge or some variant of a coverage move that just ruins DNite.

 

[Arcticblast]

/B/utterfree, you don't really back up your claim that Tornadus-T is broken, just that you happen to be good at running a Regenerator core.

I honestly think that nothing is broken except Volcarona (I will always believe it is broken) but that got shot down quickly.

 

[Danger Mouse]

Jirachi, Dragonite, Celebi, Mew, Tyranitar, Landorus-I, Abomasnow. All of these Pokemon have serious versatility and can be totally unpredictable, but all of them can be beaten by scouting out their movesets and reacting accordingly. Genesect is exactly the same way. For instance....

1. HEATRAN: Heatran is a hard counter to Genesect, no matter what set it runs. Its only chance is running HP Ground, which causes it to lose out on a valuable coverage move. You can pair Genesect up with Dugtrio to somewhat mitigate this, but you still can't switch Duggy into Heatran.

2. HAZARDS: Genesect's entire style is hit and run, so putting up entry hazards is a major deterrent to him. If he's getting worn down every time he switches in, he quickly becomes less useful.

3. THAT 99 BASE SPEED: He can run a choice scarf to mitigate this, but you have to consider that a common scarfer, Salamence, outspeeds Gene and OHKO's with Fire Blast. Other scarf variants that ruin his day include Victini, Keldeo, and Infernape. If he's not running a scarf, the list of effective checks increases significantly.

4. KELDEO AND JELLICENT: I'm listing these two together because they're basically in the same boat: Genesect's only means of hurting either one is Thunderbolt. Jellicent can be specially bulky enough to shrug off a Thunderbolt (+0 Scarf Genesect can't even 2HKO Jellicent with Thunderbolt, Expert Belt and Life Orb can't 2HKO Specially Defensive Jellicent either) and recover off the damage, hitting back with Scald. Meanwhile, +0 Scarf Genesect has no chance to OHKO Keldeo, while Specs Keldeo OHKO's with Hydro Pump even outside of rain. Even if Jellicent or Keldeo are REALLY scared of Thunderbolt, they can easily troll Genesect by switching in Gastrodon (who isn't scared of much of anything from Genesect), Thundurus-T (heals from thunderbolt and outspeeds and can smack him with a Volt Switch), and others.

The point of this post is that there are many reliable checks (and some pretty good counters, too) to Genesect. Honestly, it's ability to U-Turn away from threats is probably the easiest problem to handle: just put up Stealth Rock. Now he gets punished every time he comes back in, and with good play you can force him out and slowly weaken him.

Bottom line is, Genesect is a top-tier threat, but far from broken. Honestly, tell me how he's broken and Scizor isn't, when Scizor has more bulk AND priority. (more bulk in the sense that he actually invests in his HP, I know Genesect has more bulk than scizor on paper)

 

[Electrolyte]

As of now, I don't really see any specific pokemon that causes more turmoil now than it would should it be banned. I'm not pointing out anything in particular, but those people that have been talking about the possibility of banning a certain weather- that'll totally overturn the metagame, and cause a whole lot more trouble than they already are right now.

As for trappers, the only one I think deserves a consideration is Dugtrio. (I haven't seen enough of Meloetta to be able to include it here) Most experienced players can usually at least nab one kill per match with this thing- and it's always the player's choice. When it comes down to weather war, playing against Duggy is really stressful and nerve racking. If your inducer plays any role in your team other than weather (which it hopefully does) nailing kills will not be as smart, because Dugtrio can just come in, revenge kill, and switch right back to an opposing inducer. Even non-inducers have to play conservitavely- as often, a player's most important pokemon can be trapped and nailed by Duggy. Dugtrio is probably the main reason why SpDef Ninetales and AB Heatran are more common- Ninetales can't afford to sweep against a team with Dugtrio, and Heatran just flat out loses to Duggy if it lacks a balloon. It's not just Dugtrio's ability- but it's stats and STAB as well. High speed and good-enough attack allows it to get rid of almost any threat to your team. Since a majority of FE steel types are in OU, being able to 1. Trap them and 2. Kill them is definitely a buying trait, since a majority of FE Dragons are in OU as well. Magnezone can do the same, however it cannot trap Heatran, Lucario, or non steel types like Dugtrio can.

I honestly do not see how Wobbuffet is a threat as of now. Sure, it's surprising, but the sheer amount of set ups it baits is daunting- pokemon like Haxorus or Salamence won't mind at all about being locked into DDance- and even if Wobba switches out, so could they. It's just the fact that Wobbuffet can't attack is what makes it so not broken- with just the right prediction, finishing the blob off is not hard to do at all.

As for Genesect, I don't think it's broken, but if it were to be considered for a ban I would see why. It has something that distinguishes it from Scizor by a lot- coverage and speed. As one of the only pokemon commonly in OU that can BoltBeam and Flamethrower without resorting to Hidden Power, it can often hits at least half of an opponent's team super effectively. Not to mention that it will always have more firepower than non-choice Scizor, because of Download. The only thing holding it back IMO are hazards. No recovery, reliance on choice, and prone to switching a lot- 3 layers of spikes+SR and the bug goes down in 3 turns. Scarfers are, eh, at countering. The only notable ones are Salamence and Nape, as nothing else is both fast enough and common enough and powerful enough to be a threat.

 

[Lavos]

@Electrolyte: Dugtrio isn't broken by any means. Wow, that big Earthquake off a Base Attack of...80? And stellar 35 / 50 / 70 bulk...yeah, I don't see this getting a ban anytime soon. It has an extremely limited pool of things it can reliably kill - even Heatran, one of its prime targets, is becoming more and more able to defeat Dugtrio with combinations such as Air Balloon + Flame Charge and Magma Storm. Even Shed Shell is seeing some use, with Jimbon posting an excellent set in the OU megathread. You act like Dugtrio can kill any weather inducer easily. This is false. It OHKOs some variants of Ninetales, but can't even kill a 252 HP version in one hit. Tyranitar lives Earthquake and brings it down to its Sash (assuming that's still intact) with virtually any attack. Defensive Politoed is barely 4HKO'd by Earthquake, while Scarf outruns and kills it. Even Bulky Specs lives an EQ and a Reversal. Abomasnow lives any hit, brings it down to its Sash, and Hail damage kills it. That's pathetic. As insult to injury, Dugtrio has a 0% chance of beating any variant of Hippowdon, ever. So you might want to rethink the statement, "Dugtrio can just come in, revenge kill, and switch right back to an opposing inducer", because it's flat out wrong. Dugtrio can barely kill anything, and even the stuff it can "kill" sometimes gets away.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

Never had a problem with sun on 80% of my no weather teams.

And about 80% of my teams don't have weather.

Checking in.

(Guys fire types in general counter/deal with sun lol..)
(Never heard of agility? Try Thundurus-T, Lucario, Moltres with these moves, they trolololol all over sun)
(Tailwind counters sun as well)
(Ever tried carrying a random pokemon with rain dance/sunny day for the weather you can't beat? Tornadus-I and Heatran respectively make good users of the two weathers for example)
(Even trappers on sun teams are remarkably predictable)

Sun is the forgotten weather when people teambuild... really... you can't expect the same stally walls who are trapped/surprised (heatran) to do the job every time.

edit: People want pokemon to use their same dry sets that counter rain/sand/hail/whatever without considering sun's +2 army.

What am I talking about.
for example:

Dugtrio is INCREDIBLY predictable..
Stealth rocks don't have to be on typical defensive pivots, ie try SR on a terrakion and see if xatu or espeon will dare check it
Learn to double switch etc against sun teams, it's much more effective than against other weather teams
Tailwind Tornadus turns a sun team on it's head, making a lot of matches a lot faster (<15 turn or 20 turn wins)
Did you know: Flame charge Heatran walks all over your generic sun team, sub Heatran is also trollish.
Did you know: There are other fire types who are useable in ou, ever heard of trying houndoom to troll sun for example (sucker punch protects it from duggy, overheat + flash fire make it incredibly difficult to check for a sun team and pursuit means vicitini has to be very cautious about it's choice of moves.) I'd go on, but use your imagination.
Did you know: Sun usually relies on aggressive offense, a little creativity goes a long way.

 

[eriados]

So in my opinion, if drought (and probably drizzle too, just because it might then be overpowered) doesn't go, we really seriously need to consider the banning of trappers - Dugtrio and Gothitelle especially (Wobb less so because it doesn't really beat weather inducers).

with all due respect jc104 it honestly sounds like you are whining about losing. clearly the opponent's team chose to run trappers and while that may have given them a big advantage over you, against another team (say weatherless or somehthing else that they cant trap easily) gothi/duggy are basically dead weight. and what was stopping you from getting any offensive momentum up? if you're running a rain team with sweepers completely dependent on rain then you are just crippling yourself.

 

[jc104]

Of course I'm whining about losing to some extent; this is a suspect thread. What exactly were you expecting? Anyway, I've been losing for some three years now, but never have I had such a problem with one pokemon or team archetype. I don't mind losing generally, but I do mind losing where there is virtually nothing I can do about it, and I do mind losing to the same team repeatedly. 1/4 of my matches on PO are against variants of this one team. Of course I can build a counter team, but I think the need to do that indicates that sun is not acceptable in the metagame. Note that on rain teams in particular counters to sun are generally extremely poor fits (shed shell heatran, shed shell tyranitar come to mind as the best). These pokemon are, I would argue, in fact generally poor options.

Apart from anything, you highlighted the exact problem by saying "while that may have given them a big advantage over you, against another team (say weatherless or somehthing else that they cant trap easily) gothi/duggy are basically dead weight". This was exactly my point. Gothi and duggy can turn games completely on their heads in the presence of certain opposing weather starters, often making the result a forgone conclusion, but might against other teams prove to be useless and cause the team using them to lose. The combination of Weather and trappers leads to an extremely unhealthy metagame because they cause the match to be decided on team matchup rather than on skill during the battle, or for that matter even careful teambuilding. As I have said, the preferable solution is definitely to ban drought rather than to ban dugtrio, but if some people are really attached to sun for whatever reason I'd find it an acceptable solution. Banning Genesect might also go some way towards solving the problem, since U-turn is very large part of winning the weather war along with trapping, and it's also a crucial member of Lavos Spawn's sun team.

 

[ginganinja]

Note that on rain teams in particular counters to sun are generally extremely poor fits (shed shell heatran, shed shell tyranitar come to mind as the best). These pokemon are, I would argue, in fact generally poor options.

I want to make the point that, at least traditionally, I could argue that Sun matches up against most rain teams anyway, due to the number of grass types that force out Politoed, as well as Sunny Day Ninetales, and Fire types such as Volcarona and Victini, that also can hit hard enough to dissuade Politoed from switching in. Therefore, in order for you to prove your argument, you need to prove that it is the trappers that push sun over the edge.

Now, going back to the start of your post...

Anyway, I've been losing for some three years now, but never have I had such a problem with one pokemon or team archetype.

O.k, so whats changed. Sun + Dugtrio was not at all uncommon in BW1, Wobb also saw a little more use toward the end of BW1 in combination with Dugtrio, and yet, according to your above quote, you never had a problem with this. Ergo, something must have changed, and really, the only new trapper we have is ST Gotha, which I don't actually see often on Sun teams in the first place. Even if ST Gotha was common, again, according to your post, you could handle it just fine before, so it would be ST Gotha that we would ban, for pushing sun over the edge.

Putting the above aside, you are still ignoring the fact that you yourself, can prepare for this. You can Scarf Politoed, so that it outspeeds Ninetales looking to use Sunny Day, you can use a bulky Politoed, so that Dugtrio cannot really revenge you, you can use trappers of your own, to nail Ninetales, you can abuse the fact that many sun teams right now, struggle to deal with Tornadus-T, (and you can run Rain Dance on that thing if you want), you can do all sorts of things, just adapt your fucking team to the metagame T_T.

I have played around with both Rain and Sun teams and playing against them (I found) is never a sure win for ether side. Sure, sun as (personally) a slight advantage, but its a slight one, and its something that can be overcome with a little skill and prediction. Its honestly not as hard as you are making it out to be lol.

I don't want to get all personal about this, but I will use the example of the Rain Team I posted a RMT of. Some people found it was weak to sun, and perhaps it was, but in all my testing I only needed up losing to a sun team once, (and that was after I posted my team), my team had no real dedicated sun destroyers, it was just a matter of using prediction, skill, and good play to overcome a natural disadvantage. The purpose of this example is to inform you that it is possible to play around Sun with rain, you don't need a dedicated counter team, and after playing around on both PS! (and to a small extent PO2) I feel well enough informed to make a judgement call upon this. It is beatable, and this is why I flatly disagree with a ban on Sun + Trappers, because it is ridiculous in principal, since Sun was handled just fine in BW1, and yet you claim that Ninetales + Dugtrio is now broken in BW2/ DO you want to explain this a little more please, since your entire argument seems to be claiming that you handled sun + trappers fine in BW1 but not in BW2. Is Gotha really pushing it over the edge?

 

[Bryce]

Sun + Trappers + Genesect can be dealt with Rain or Sun if these teams are not heavily dependent on their respective weathers.For example I kept losing to Sun teams with my Rain team even if I outplayed them.So i decided to replace some of my pokes with those who can work effectively outside Rain.Like if you put a Rock Polish sheer force Landorus on your Sand/Rain team it can force out Ninetails or set up Duggy and sweep through all common Sun mons.Landorus is just one example.A lot of Rain teams are filled with Rain Abusers such as Tornadus-T,Toxicroak,Thundurus T etc who are greatly nerfed by sun.But by limiting Rain abusers on your team and adding pokes that can work outside of Rain quite well as well as packing things for chloro sweepers will be nice solution.Additionally I'm going to quote this from Ginganinja.

Putting the above aside, you are still ignoring the fact that you yourself, can prepare for this. You can Scarf Politoed, so that it outspeeds Ninetales looking to use Sunny Day, you can use a bulky Politoed, so that Dugtrio cannot really revenge you, you can use trappers of your own, to nail Ninetales, you can abuse the fact that many sun teams right now, struggle to deal with Tornadus-T, (and you can run Rain Dance on that thing if you want), you can do all sorts of things, just adapt your fucking team to the metagame T_T.

if you're really worried about Trappers,give your weather starters/Heatran Shed shell.Politoed's only purpose is summoning the Rain .Ttar is on the same boat, although it has some use individually running shed shell shouldn't all that problematic.You just lose out 6% recovery or ability to take non STAB fighting attacks .

As for shadow Tag Goth,i must say it's quite effective.However I think goth struggles in general.It is not that hard to wear down as it's vulnerable to all kinds of residual damage.Plus it has a poor speed stat making it a terrible mon against a lot of offensive threats.If you're worried,run shed shell instead of lefties on something.

As for Chandelure,well it can be decided after the release.But I assume it will not be broken but just at the edge of brokenness.

Genesect:It has been argued before and almost every point in favor of it not being broken has been made.

 

[Shurtugal]

I personally don't see trappers as broken, but if the community some how finds them broken I would only ban Duggy + Sun or Trappers + Sun since only sun actually use trappers. Duggy was theorymonned to be better in rain anyway when it was first used, but sun jst abuse those trappers. However, rain teams can deal with this kind of stuff. The fact that Duggy relies on sash makes it vulnerable to hazards + rain attack. Defensive Politoed easily eliminates it. However, you then got a double trapper core? Wobby doesn't like being Encore'd into an attack. It doesn't like toxic either. Let me address some issues others above me are posting about:

Tornadus-T: I don't see how he is broken. A majority of offense teams have something that can outspeed this thing. His bulk and regeneration is annoying, but without rain it losses on an important STAB it needs. Some argue it can be used without rain. However, it doesn't have many viable option outside of rain, and those don't even warrant a ban.

Deo-D Teams: I believe I already commented on these. However, I'll repeat myself. Some user said that this strategy requires less skill, which was one of their reasons for warranting this ban. SS + Drizzle was used by every new player, however, it was only banned because it was warranted broken. We don't ban things because they are annoying or used by new people; only if they are broken. I fail to see how Deo-D is broken, considering the following: decent speed isn't enough to avoid all taunt users (although I use mental herb, but thats rare), magic bounce, rapid spinners, easily 2HKO'ed. Deo-D is usually paired with a ghost mon, which make the strategy formidable. HOWEVER, volt-turn was also formidable. Yet it wasn't enough to warrant a ban, so I don't know why people are complaining about this.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

@shurtugal I believe that it was me that said the strategy requires less skill. While I realize that this is not what makes it broken, this is what first drew me to the subject of Deo-D teams. Basically, the only way to 100% beat it is with a magic bounce user - but then should one of those honestly need to find their way onto every team just to beat one hazard layer? This, for once, actually makes the game more "matchup-based" that nobody wants. And its not like your spinner/magic bounce user is going to be able to stand up to 4/5 outrageous HO mons. So, honestly, the deciding point of a game like that is who kills the vital poke first, deoxys before it gets up hazards, or the magic bounce user. That is extremely matchup based, and it seems like nobody wants that at all.

 

[Ojama]

I totally agree with 95% of your post jc104 (you're right about the fact that sun is broken because of dugtrio, genesect@uturn, gothitelle) but I disagree with the end of your post. Banning Dug / Goth is stupid, they aren't broken at all. You think they're broken because they help sun being even more broken. Imo this isn't a reason. Look, SpecsPolitoed just destroys Gothitelle and Dugtrio + it does around 65% to Ninetales iirc (bulky tales). Of course I know that Dug is faster than SpecsToed, but you probably forgot that Goth is slower than Politoed so this is just easy to beat it. Dug is another problem because of Focus Sash + Reversal, but if you do have Stealth Rock on your opponent field, this is pretty easy. ScarfPolitoed : it outruns both Dug and Goth and OHKO/2HKO them, so they aren't a problem at all, once again. What about Bulky Toed ? Dugtrio can't do anything against it. Goth is another problem with Toxic etc, but once again you're faster and can Toxic it (well, I know that Goth is sometimes/often used with Rest + Toxic). So actually, Politoed doesn't really care about them.

Now how about Tyranitar and Hippowdon ? Tyranitar destroys Goth, I won't even talk about it for Tar. Dugtrio is obviously annoying for Tyranitar, but if its Sash is broken, Dugtrio can't OHKO Tar since its not CB. But hey, Tar would be very broken if Dug wouldn't exist lol. What about Hippowdon ? While Dug is useless for it, Goth is another broken, BUT if it doesn't carry Toxic, Specially Defensive Hippowdon is able to beat Goth because Psychic does 45% max IIRC. In addition, Hippowdon gets Roar ^_^.

So yah, banning them would be stupid but I still agree that Sun + Trapper is really broken, but in my opinion, the real broken thing is that Dug traps Heatran.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

To be honest Deoxsy-D is just spikes stacking abuse, with the right team support Ferrothorn can be just as effective. As far are match up goes, that can be said for any pokemon. Doexs-D's low usage also means its not the best pokemon either to be quite frank, get a dangerous strategy, yes, broken, no.

 

[Shurtugal]

@shurtugal I believe that it was me that said the strategy requires less skill. While I realize that this is not what makes it broken, this is what first drew me to the subject of Deo-D teams. Basically, the only way to 100% beat it is with a magic bounce user - but then should one of those honestly need to find their way onto every team just to beat one hazard layer? This, for once, actually makes the game more "matchup-based" that nobody wants. And its not like your spinner/magic bounce user is going to be able to stand up to 4/5 outrageous HO mons. So, honestly, the deciding point of a game like that is who kills the vital poke first, deoxys before it gets up hazards, or the magic bounce user. That is extremely matchup based, and it seems like nobody wants that at all.

Deo-D teams aren't match up based. You don't need to eliminate the hazards to actually beat these teams. Deo-D is actually nice set up bait, as some users don't taunt first, allowing 2 set up moves to be used. Common Politoed can Encore it into SR. Taunt is also common on stall teams, like on Jellicent to name one. Sun teams have Chloro abusers that can easily out pace most HO sweepers on Deo-D teams. Rain teams have those things called scarfers and hard rain abusers of their own that can, in general, destroy 5 HO teams. Stall teams ALWAYS need spinners. Or some way to remove hazards, as in rare magic bounce. Deo-D struggles to even get up SR + Spikes, as a lot of things can 2HKO before it gets spikes up, and SR is easily on every team plus the Deo-D team that fails to get spikes up is now 1 member short.

Please support your claim when you say, "it makes the metagame match up based". When this statement is false, espec. for Deo-D offense since most common offensive teams can 1-2HKO before it can even get all its hazards up (specs Politoed OHKOs, scarf 2HKOs and out speeds, Dragonite can DD and Outrage, and so on).