Gifts of the Gods

That makes sense, ok thanks

but a hp boosted diancie is great because it checks tflame/swellow while also beating mega sableye, which is 3 out of the 4 S ranked mons. id also say it checks smeargle also because it ignores fakespeed/can handle v-create whilst also dealing with any spore shenanigans, but it depends on if the smeargle has bonemerang or some other bizarre set. rock is a useful defensive typing here
 

iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
but a hp boosted diancie is great because it checks tflame/swellow while also beating mega sableye, which is 3 out of the 4 S ranked mons. id also say it checks smeargle also because it ignores fakespeed/can handle v-create whilst also dealing with any spore shenanigans, but it depends on if the smeargle has bonemerang or some other bizarre set. rock is a useful defensive typing here
Figure I'll put this out there...

252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 153-180 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 225-264 (93.3 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
tfw you go to post and your internet cuts out :(
Mega Sableye and Talonflame are being suspected.
Both of these mons constrain teambuilding - Sableye because with its newfound bulk, its strength in OU is compounded here to create a mon that is incredibly difficult to take down outside of Fairy-types, while Talonflame restricts offensive teams in their creativity by simply killing things regardless of boosts.

How to vote:
  • Create a fresh alt with MST (Mega Sableye Talonflame) in the name
  • Have at least 20 battles on the account
  • Have a GXE of at least 78
  • Vote BAN, DO NOT BAN, or ABSTAIN for each mon, separately
  • Explain your reasoning with a short paragraph
Both mons will be banned during the suspect. This suspect will end in 5 days, ie on Saturday, at approximately this time.
Example vote (not necessarily my own):
Code:
[hide=screenshot of reqs] [/hide]
Mega Sableye: BAN
Talonflame: DO NOT BAN
[insert reasoning here]
Tagging The Immortal to implement this and also to sort out the STag ban.

Regarding Eviolite: I am definitely open to re-suspecting it, but I don't think suspecting 3 things at the same time is a wise move, it changes the meta a little too much. Look out for it after this suspect is over!
 
Shoutouts mix and mega for reqs requirements :P

Not going to be able to start laddering for reqs straight away, will probably start tomorrow but atm I'm probs pro-Sab ban and a bit undecided on TFlame.
 
Figure I'll put this out there...

252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 153-180 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 225-264 (93.3 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
these are done with 50 hp
 
For anyone who ask why Mega Sableye got suspected, here's the reasoning.

1. With increased HP, it's bulk now lets it able to stomach any hit from any mon. With Magic Bounce, it's basically immune to Taunt and Toxic, making it incredibly hard to break through. Combined with a very good typing combination, we think that this mon might be too much for the meta.

2. It has the movepool and bulk that lets it beat almost anything. Let me outline this:
  • The utility set consists of Foul Play, Knock Off and Will-o-wisp, is able to beat almost all of the Physical meta.
  • Because of this, one of the only ways to beat Mega Sableye is through Special attacks. However, it has a move called Metal Burst. With it's bulk, it is able to stomach any Physical and Special hits and beat most unboosted Special Attacks with Metal Burst and high HP.
  • This forces you to use boosted attacks, but we know that boosted Physical Attack won't work because of Foul Play. This left us to use... boosted Special Attacks. But we know that Sableye has Calm Mind and it renders beating through Special means ineffective. And Calm Mind means that Mega Sableye is actually able to sweep.
With those reasoning outlined above, we can now conclude that Mega Sableye can beat almost anything and it can have many roles. It is also very splashable in teams because it benefits from ANY god except maybe Deo A and the opportunity cost is just a mega slot. All of these are the reasoning for a suspect.
 
Something that hasn't been mentioned about Mega Sableye is how well it does against Deoxys-A itself: Ghost / Dark is straight up immune to most of Deo's popular moves (Psycho Boost, Extreme Speed, Superpower), and other moves (Ice Beam, Knock Off, Fire Punch) aren't strong enough to muscle through its defenses. It actually handles a lot on Deo teams, like Smeargle...I have to dedicate a whole slot on my HO team just to take on Mega Sableye and even it's kind of shaky...not that this makes it banworthy (still unsure on what I'd vote) but it's worth noting it's one of the few things keeping all-out Deoxys offense in check. In fact, if MSab does it get banned, I'd advocate even harder for an Eviolite test.

Talonflame is...still Talonflame. Maybe it's just the structure of my team, but the fact that it hits hard and fast is fairly irrelevant to me as Smeargle RKs it guaranteed and I have other methods of keeping it down, but I can see how it would be a problem to many archetypes. I actually use a Talonflame without boosted Attack on my Deoxys team (Smeargle has that slot) and it still serves a useful purpose with its coveted high power Flying priority, so I guess that should tell you something about how effective it is with more than double the Attack haha.
 
I'm not sure how far you want to put Mega Diancie into a check category to where you'd be poorly using an illustrious HP stat, assuming you are expecting a boost to 120+.
i thought the discussion was for why HP mega diancie is high on the list. i just gave an answer to that, its up to you whether it fits into your team or not. personally i think its ability to check top threats makes it very usable, and having the extra hp makes it able to actually choose whether to mega evolve or not: it can hurt stall teams by mega evolving and gaining magic bounce + beating sableye as a rock setter, or it can stay as regular diancie and check some top offensive bird + normal threats very handily. and it compacts all of that into a single slot.
 
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sin(pi) said:
  • Have a GXE of at least 78
I haven't done a suspect before b/c for the first 3-4 years I mostly just dicked around, but why 78 specifically? It seems to be a really odd number to be at and most of the people on the ladder don't break this. It seems to be a bit high and arbitrary. I would understand up to 75, but why 78? This is just me being new to all of this.
 
M-Diancle has everything, top ability, stats, typing and movepool.

As i used M-Sableye i kept losing to M-Diancle, after some time i used M-Diancle myself.
It work so well, that i could use Carbink on the same team and still peaked 1.

When i tried Kyrum-W team and instantly lost 3 battles, 41% with Spec Draco to 150 HP Shuckle is very disappointing.
 
Hey guys, I'm against banning Sableye-Mega
Abstain from Tflame, probably
Mega_Sableye.png


So thanks for hosting a suspect test sin(pi), it shows leadership. Mega Sableye is an interesting pokemon, it's almost exclusively running HP because... Eh it doesn't care about anything else and HP is one of the few weaknesses that Mega Sableye has. But lets establish some good counter arguments

  • Mega Sableye has significicant opportunity cost. It's a mega pokemon, for one. If you're running Mega Sableye you can't run Mega Venusaur, Mega Slowbro, Mega Scizor, Mega Charizard-X or any of the other balance/stall mega stones. And of course Mega Sableye is the top dog among them purely because of Magic bounce - but all of these pokemon have valuable niches in Balance/Stall. Mega Venusaur is great paired with Primal Groudon, as you remove weather and provide a switch in to Sand and Rain teams. Mega Slowbro reigns supreme when it comes to bulk, either running 120+ in either Special Defence or HP. Mega Scizor provides stall with a very solid defensive and offensive win-con capable of handling various offence archtypes. A set with U-turn, Bullet Punch, Roost, SD allows you to pivot into walls or break apart cores. Mega Charizard-X isnt as conventional with it's Stealh rock weakness, but nonetheless it's a pokemon that is difficult to switch into with it's Will o Wisp, EQ, Dragon Claw, Roost set. Of course, you can choose Fire blast to threaten fairy types that don't care about Will O Wisp. But this isn't the only opportunity cost. I think the best stat to pass, over all, is HP. Gives you a great mixed defensive presence and is really great overral. And on stall, Mega Sableye has so much competition for HP, its insane. Gliscor, Breloom, Clefable, Skarmory, Talonflame, Quagsire, Ditto, Mega Diancie, Shuckle, Landorus-Therian, Slowbro, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Bastidon(lol), Rotom-W, Zapdos ect. All defensive pokemon would, largely, prefer HP over any other stat. That's the truth, and it's not always easy to make the call to give it to Mega Sableye.
  • Mega Sableye has multiple counters, across all playstyles. So this is kind of disputed, so let me say this. I'm not going to throw out calcs left and right, because that's a silly way of argumenting. It's nickpicking and shouldn't be as prevelant as it is. I know that with the right move combination Mega Sableye is difficult to counter reliably, but that's just now how it works in practise. We don't use prediction as an argument, same way we shouldn't use "But this set counters!" as an argument. I'm aware. You're aware. With impeccable, perfect prediction nothing has counters - but nobody's perfect(Eevee General is tho ;_;). So counters, ye? Fairy types stand out, of course, being able to hit it super effectively and most of them having Calm mind. Clefable is the undisputed champion for countering Mega Sableye, being immune to Will o Wisp and resisting it's dark attacks. It also has calm mind and can boost up, it only fears Metal Burst but if you're running that you're not running Calm mind and then you wont live a hit at +6. We also have Mega Diancie, which can threaten with Moonblast right away or Calm mind up to go the same route as Clefable does. Simply having Mega Diancie in the back discourages Mega Sableye from Will O Wisping, fearing Magic Bounce. We also have Togekiss, which is a bit more trolly. Air Slash flinches usually lets you beat it, if its calm mind it can't touch you and metal burst is just set up on. Togekiss running Heal bell means that it wont struggle at all with Mega Sableye and can consistently act as a counter throughout the game. Fairy-Arceus, Mega Altaria, Mega Gardevoir, Sylveon and Xerneas kind of destroy Mega Sableye as well lol. Other fun options are PH Mons, Gliscor and Breloom. A Gliscor with 120 HP doesn't really care about Sableye, only really fearing Foul play. +4 does 64 at most, which isn't a problem with Poison heal and roost, at +4 you also 2HKO it back. Breloom is niche but it's PH set resist Foul Play and will usually come out on top with Seed bomb. Protect, SD, Seed Bomb, Mach Punch is an interesting set. Additionally you can run Facade over Protect to hit Grass/Posion/Flying types harder. Ehh... We also have fire types. Defensive Pdon with Lava plume, Rest, EQ, SR is very good as it isn't 3HKOd by Foul play and can usually burn back then pressure with Earthquake. Eventually you'll come out on top, either with a crit or PP stalling its recover. Talonflame is also a good option, Bulk up, Roost, Brave bird/Acrobatics, Will O Wisp/Taunt threatens most of stall, especially when either given more defence, attack or HP. Mega Sableye can't do much back unless running Toxic, but that's kind of a meh option for Mega Sableye. Surprisingly enough, Espeon can also handle it relatively well, with 120 Defence and 252 Evs in HP you take 40% max from Foul play. You can then easily set up to +6 and destroy it with Dazzling gleam (Watch out for Metal burst!). When it comes to more counters, I'm not 100% sure. And I dont know enough about them to really talk about them freely. We have some INSANE wallbreakers in this tier, Swellow and Pikachu both kind of say no lol if they get the chance to attack, mostly just because of its insane power. Mega Heracross can easily sub up and 2HKO with Pin Missle but Foul play will break the sub so watch out. Pokemon with Scald can also be a problem because, like most megas, lacking leftovers means that if you get it burned or toxiced then you can start pivoting and it'll lose 24% HP each double switch - essentially it becomes way easier to deal with. If you want to have some fun, simply switching into ditto is an option to scare it from Will O Wisping. Remember, this being an Ubers metagame lets us use some Ubers pokemon! Ho-oh is great for Mega Sableye, and can burn with Scared fire and pivot out. Primal Groudon is always extremely powerful. Primal Kyogre or regular kyogre will scare it with scalds. CM refresh Arceus will beat it a lot the time, or atleast pivot. Set up is also a way of dealing with it. Sub Darkrai can Nasty plot up behind a substitute, and flinch it to death. Manaphy can set up with tail glow and beat it. I know there is more, this is just the result of some research :]
  • So what is the actual problem with Mega Sableye? Well... It makes team-buidling harder. In the start of ORAS OU the game was Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie and Mega Sableye. At the time everything was new, and it was a different time. Mega Sableye was ranked S ranked in the start of ORAS, and at the peak of ABR stall if I remember correctly. It was ranked so highly in the start because Mega Sableye preys on unprepared teams, those who rely on rocks being up but used rockers unable to beat Mega Sableye. Things like Infernape, Celebi, Jirachi, Sash Garchomp and Azelf couldn't work on Hyper offensive teams (not that all of them did, but you get the point) anymore. And I think we're in the same stage of Mega Sableye right now, Mega Sableye is a top tier threat, but it's far from broken in OU. And as this metagame progresses I suspect everyone will prepare more and more, to the point where Mega Sableye will merely be a shadow of its former self. Having a whopping four bans in, like, 12 days is kinda extreme. Soul dew, Goth, Chansey and Blissey - although the former weren't supposed to be allowed.
TLDR: This metagame is to young to properly evaluate how good Mega Sableye is, please wait more before banning it because it's going to drop in viability. Competiton and solid counters are also a problem for it.
 

iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
I'm going to correct any grammar mistakes from the quote below, just so I don't lose my sanity. I also won't be using calcs since they don't really provide anything that can't just be explained. Now, I suppose I'll get right to it...
  • Mega Sableye has significant opportunity cost... ...And on stall, Mega Sableye has so much competition for HP, its insane... ...it's not always easy to make the call to give it to Mega Sableye.
  • Mega Sableye has multiple counters, across all playstyles. With impeccable, perfect prediction nothing has counters - but nobody's perfect.
  • So what is the actual problem with Mega Sableye? Well... It makes team-buidling harder. Having a whopping four bans in, like, 12 days is kinda extreme. Soul dew, Goth, Chansey and Blissey - although the former weren't supposed to be allowed.
I'll be going point by point and into a fair amount of detail, so bear with me.

"Mega Sableye has significant opportunity cost... ...And on stall, Mega Sableye has so much competition for HP, its insane... ...it's not always easy to make the call to give it to Mega Sableye."

As it stands now, Mega Sableye has little, to now opportunity cost, or at least any less than other options. Your main argument for this point is that it doesn't let you run other Mega options that could help with different team builds. Well, no s***. Choosing to run Mega Sableye over a different Mega Evolution isn't limiting opportunity for a team, that is making a conscious decision to use one Mega Evolution over another. That would be like saying, "By using [Insert Uber Pokemon] you are limiting your options on Ubers to use." Mega Sableye is simply another option for your Mega slot, and frankly, it is an excellent option for certain teambuilds, and less than optimal for others, which is pretty much how Pokemon works. Now, regarding its competition for the HP stat on Stall teams, not putting Mega Sableye into the HP slot is 80-90% of the time, a really poor decision. No matter what set it is, if it is given the high HP stat on a Stall team, it is automatically a blanket check to nearly every Pokemon in the meta. Of course there is an argument for Fairy types, but if that's the basis for why Mega Sableye isn't overtly useful and extremely powerful in the meta, then you're kind of missing the point. With the HP stat and diverse Utilities at its disposal, it provides a major part of the backbone for Stall teams. In fact, Mega Sableye would not be nearly as good of a Magic Bouncer on Stall teams without the large buff in HP because it will get at least 2HKOed by any Atk/SpA boosted threat in the meta. When paired with a strong core, it can shut down almost any team composition; Stall, Balance, Offense, Hyperoffense, etc. When deciding whether Mega Sableye should go into the HP slot for a Stall team or not, it actually is not a difficult call to make. Its Utility options, Set-Up control, Magic Bounce, Recovery, Set-Up options, etc. could not make the decision any easier.

"Mega Sableye has multiple counters, across all playstyles. With impeccable, perfect prediction nothing has counters - but nobody's perfect."

Again, your argument for beating Mega Sableye half revolves around its weakness to Fairy Pokemon. This is nice and all, if you were making a Check/Counter list, but you're also trying to explain why this makes it bad on Stall teams, which is completely inaccurate. That also makes for an illogical argument; "Mega Sableye loses to Fairy Pokemon, therefore it is not an ideal option on Stall teams." Now, I agree that there are Pokemon that can Check/Counter Mega Sableye beyond Fairy types, especially Poison Heal Pokemon, some of the options you listed are simply incorrect. Beginning with Talonflame, even if it is Bulk Up/Roost Mega Sableye wins 100% of the time if it runs Foul Play. If it runs Toxic, it can simply status and swap into an Unaware Pokemon or any other appropriate switchin. Espeon would be a nice option, if your opponent couldn't simply switch out into a different Pokemon. Being able to set up to +6 Dazzling Gleam on a Mega Sableye is simply a ridiculous proposal. As for Swellow and Pikachu, yes they can Check Mega Sableye, but then again, your opponent can just switch out into their own appropriate Check/Counter and win the matchup. Pretty much every Pokemon listed beyond this is only a Check and your opponent can just switch out and reset the situation, but in the favor of the Stall team. In regards to perfect predictions having no counters, Stall is based on the premise that even if a prediction doesn't work out, the Stall team itself is fine and can recover from any mistake or flub. The point being, you don't need perfect predictions or to even get a prediction correct.

"So what is the actual problem with Mega Sableye? Well... It makes team-building harder. Having a whopping four bans in, like, 12 days is kinda extreme. Soul dew, Goth, Chansey and Blissey - although the former weren't supposed to be allowed."

Addressing the team-building portion really quick, granted that can be said for any good Pokemon in the meta, but Mega Sableye's counters have to be specifically made to beat it. Something like Tyranitar or Rhyperior don't need to only be designed to beat Talonflame and Swellow, they can cover a plethora of other options as well and be extremely proficient in dismantling opposing teams. With the bans, Soul Dew, as you said, wasn't really supposed to be allowed, while Gothitelle's OU-Breaking Shadow Tag was never really addressed until it was decided to simply ban Shadow Tag in general. Chansey and Blissey are also different from really suspecting Pokemon. They were inherently broken aspects of the metagame that were only taken out when their true strengths came to light in this thread.

My short points on Mega Sableye:
  • It's far too constricting for teambuilds. Sure the metagame is new and still developing, but when utilized to its full potential and on a great teambuild, especially Stall, it is nearly impossible to beat.
  • Its Utility options paired with Magic Bounce are simply too great to ignore; Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Recover, Knock Off, Foul Play, Calm Mind, Snarl, Dark Pulse, Night Shade, Fake Out, Metal Burst, and Taunt.
  • It nearly has the Chansey/Blissey effect to where it is simply one of the best possible options for the HP slot on Stall teams and acts as a blanket check to most of the metagame.
 
good points above.
honestly i feel like while mega sableye deserves suspect, it is being suspected alongside the wrong pokemon. deoxys and mega sableye are the two mons that seem to be yin and yang in this metagame; not because they are used on the same team, but one of the only ways to break mega sableye (outside of a specific fairy type counter) seems to be with a nuclear 180 atk or spa stat; on the flipside deoxys makes the meta so offensive that stall teams need a bastion to keep them viable that checks everything outside of these 180 offense nightmares in order to have the teamslots available to cover other threats.
mega sableye is a godsend because it walls deoxys and also can usually beat the mon that inherits speed, so deoxys teams get limited to two or three scary threats. against non-sableye teams you have 4 monsters threatening to blow up your whole team; deoxys, the mons that inherit both offenses, and the mon that inherits speed. and its a tossup whether the other two mons will be dangerous to your team also.. i do think if we remove mega sableye, deoxys teams will run wild. and if we remove deoxys, sableye will become even more of a nightmare. talon is featured on deo teams but i dont believe he is the main problem.

its too much. im not proud to say it, but i was forced to use shuckle.

NO BAN mega sableye

NO BAN talonflame



edit: if youre looking for sample teams, this is the balance team i used. shuckle, clefable and smeargle beat the majority of offense, serperior is prob one of the best stallbreakers in the game, and arc + mega sceptile are a utility core provide defog and blocking some pivoting with lightningrod.

Shuckle @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Encore
- Rest
- Toxic

Smeargle @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- V-create
- Bonemerang

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Heal Bell
- Moonlight

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Dragon Pulse
- Synthesis

Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 116 Atk / 160 SpA / 232 Spe
Rash Nature
- Energy Ball
- Dragon Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Rock Slide

Arceus @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Defog
- Thunderbolt
- Judgment




i cant express how much i want people to continue using the garbage shell smash shuckle set and not use this cancerous one. silk scarf smeargle was a test that i ended up liking but you could use a focus sash if you wish. often, smeargle is hitting defensive pokemon it outspeeds for an ohko or revenge killing without getting touched.
arceus water deserves to be used more in general bc ekiller is a bit overrated. tried a bunch of stuff in the mega slot and tbh it hasnt made much difference. mega sceptile gives another ground resist, doubles up offensively w/ serperior and lures ho-oh which it kills with a rock slide after switching into a dragon pulse. + outspeeds and ohkos swellow with dragon pulse.
 
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Mega Sableye: BAN Talonflame: ABSTAIN
I think Mega Sableye should be banned because it restricts team building for offence and stall a lot. It can beat almost all of its checks with things like toxic and metal burst. Overall I don´t think it´s healthy for the meta. I´m abstaining on Talonflame because I can´t decide if it´s unhealthy or not. On one hand it restrics teambuilding for offence a lot but it also has a lot of checks in rock types and extreme speed.
 

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Pipotchi said:
good points above.
honestly i feel like while mega sableye deserves suspect, it is being suspected alongside the wrong pokemon. deoxys and mega sableye are the two mons that seem to be yin and yang in this metagame; not because they are used on the same team, but one of the only ways to break mega sableye seems to be with a nuclear 180 atk or spa stat; on the flipside deoxys makes the meta so offensive that stall teams need a bastion to keep them viable that checks everything outside of these 180 offense nightmares in order to have the teamslots available to cover other threats.
mega sableye is a godsend because it walls deoxys and also can usually beat the mon that inherits speed, so deoxys teams get limited to two or three scary threats. against non-sableye teams you have 4 monsters threatening to blow up your whole team; deoxys, the mons that inherit both offenses, and the mon that inherits speed. and its a tossup whether the other two mons will be dangerous to your team also.. i do think if we remove mega sableye, deoxys teams will run wild. and if we remove deoxys, sableye will become even more of a nightmare. talon is featured on deo teams but i dont believe he is the main problem.
Completely agree, deoxys teams will run all over other archtypes without mega sableye. Spiritomb could run a similar set and pursuit trap deoxys but it has way worse bulk and lacks recover and magic bounce, so thats an immediate loss. Its too easy for things like smeargle to break teams now because there aren't enough pokemon with typing and bulk to stop his attacks.
 
Keeping a potentially broken Pokemon simply to check another supposedly broken Pokemon is a very flawed argument and doesn't answer the quesation of "Is Mega Sableye overpowered?". If Deoxys-Attack is also deemed broken then it'll get a suspect test in due time, but in the meanwhile I'd suggest you not base your entire argument on the aforementioned point when making a decision.
 
  • It's far too constricting for teambuilds. Sure the metagame is new and still developing, but when utilized to its full potential and on a great teambuild, especially Stall, it is nearly impossible to beat.
  • Its Utility options paired with Magic Bounce are simply too great to ignore; Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Recover, Knock Off, Foul Play, Calm Mind, Snarl, Dark Pulse, Night Shade, Fake Out, Metal Burst, and Taunt.
  • It nearly has the Chansey/Blissey effect to where it is simply one of the best possible options for the HP slot on Stall teams and acts as a blanket check to most of the metagame.
Gonna respond purely to your bullet points, if that's alright. I enjoy a well though through response but I don't really have time - we did have an extensive discussion on showdown where good points were brought up - mostly the increased viability in Metal Burst.

  • Perhaps, but is that always a negative? I enjoy the fact that stealth rockers are somewhat restricted. The fact that Deoxys-A teams can't just lead with it, get up rocks and then nuke something before it dies is a posititve in my mind. It's not like it's impossible to stealth rock on Mega Sableye when using offensive teams. There's a couple stealth rockers that definitely still threaten it, like Primal Groudon and Clefable. Not being able to spike stack unless using Klefki is nice as well. All of these things definitely relieve some pressure of stall.
  • It has all of those options in OU as well, but it doesn't use them. The only thing I can possibly see it running differently now is Metal burst. The best set in OU is Fake out, Knock off, Recover and Will o Wisp. With honorable mentions to Protect and Foul play. And it's not like Metal burst is always this amazing thing, you're still sacrificing something. If you're running Metal burst you lose either Fake out/Protect or Foul play/Knock off and you either make getting of that mega evolution difficult - or you turn into setup fodder. Mega Sableye really isn't this magical thing capable of running all of these moves effectively. Will O Wisp and Recover are manditory (Lol something like 5% of them don't run recover). What combination is really being ran here? You're still making it so you're incapable of dominating the hazard game - from something. You don't run CM/Knock/Burst then Nidoqueen/King sets up on you. You don't run Calm mind and you can forget about defending yourself against fairy types. Not running Foul play means you'll be volunerable to SD Lum leads like Landorus, Garchomp and Rhyperior. It's a mixed bag, yakno? Of course it's difficult for the leads to predict, but you're not always in control.
  • Eh, yeah it probably is the best pokemon for the HP slot - but something has to be. And Mega Sableye is essentially only ran on stall (All of its partners tend to be stall mons) - so 2/3 of the playstyles don't run it. The metagame is essentially Deoxy-A offence, Primal Groudon Balance and Arceus-Stall. Atleast in my experience.
Also, perhaps we could look into Arceus as a god in general. I really, really struggle to justify using anything else because of the insane role compression. It can be a special sweeper, physical sweeper, defogger, stallbreaker, stealth rocker and plenty of other roles. 120 to be distrubted throughout your team is just a blessing.
Thoughs in general is that it's an interesting metagame to be honest. I like that we can give HP and it's really one of the few new aspect of the metagame.
 


BAN Mega Sableye
DO NOT BAN Talonflame

After playing the suspect ladder, I am actually pleased that people run more megas that I haven't seen in Mega Sableye meta. I believe Mega Sableye limits teambuilding and it's broken in my opinion because how it can beat nearly everything with either Foul Play, Metal Burst or Will-o-wisp. And Metal Burst is what make me vote for ban. Combined with a high HP, it's what lets it beat everything that normally counters it before. And please DO NOT compare Mega Sableye in here and in OU. Mega Sableye in OU has low HP, meaning Metal Burst is a bad move. Here, Metal Burst made it broken. As for Talonflame, I haaven't found it to be broken before the suspect ladder. And in suspect ladder, Smeargle is just as good, so no reason to ban Talonflame I think.

And for you Deo-A complainers, we'll have Eviolite test after this, so don't cry. It's just Mega Sableye needs to go first.
 

scpinion

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I'm new here, but I spent some time on the ladder and read through the last couple pages of discussion. I'm certain of one thing: this meta is a blast to play and build in!

Mega Sableye: BAN
Talonflame: BAN

To get started, I took Chopin Alkaninoff 's FWG pdon team w/ Talon and m-Sab and replaced the illegal 'mons. I ended up with this:


Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 184 HP / 252 Def / 72 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Earth Power
- Moonblast

Crobat @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- U-turn
- Defog

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Wish
- Scald
- Toxic

Serperior @ Assault Vest
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Rhyperior @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Fire Punch
- Precipice Blades
- Solar Beam
- Swords Dance

I added RestTalk Diancie to the HP slot and an SD Skarm to replace Talon. The rest of the team is exactly the same. The team is stupidly weak to SpA slot Serp and hazard stacking. It can definitely be refined.

The Diancie set was meant to check Stall, check the mindless HO teams I knew I'd face, and act as a wincon against opposing Balance. I didn't really need it for hazards b/c I didn't have Talon, but it was a nice deterrent. Overall, it actually worked pretty well. Stall really struggled to beat it (except Unaware Clef) and Offense usually couldn't OHKO it, which meant they had eat a STAB Moonblast and trade 'mons. The Spe EVs let it outspeed Smeargle so it is forced to use priority.

The Skarm set is the standard fare afaik.
edit: I updated the team for my 2nd ladder run (rip MST tag). Crobat makes for a nice Serp check while still nuking stuff with Brave Bird.

~~~~

Based on my experiences on the ladder, I'm voting to ban both Sab and Talonflame. First, and most importantly for me, the metagame without them was really nice. In 20+ matches I played a roughly equal amount of HO, Balance, and Stall—a sign of a good metagame in my opinion. Also, I felt like I had to play well to win in each match (i.e. I didn't lose solely on matchup).

As for the Pokemon themselves:
Mega Sableye seems like it would be incredibly centralizing with a massive HP stat. Based on the previous discussion in the thread, that appears to be the case. I don't want to just repeat what others have said about banning it, so I'm just going to put it succinctly: I feel the same way and don't have any qualms about supporting a ban.

I'm less confident in my decision on Talonflame. From reading the thread it seems like it was a staple in the Attack slot and most people preferred an offensive EV spread that made use of SD and Brave Bird. That makes sense.

However, I could easily see a SpDef set in the Atk slot dominating the metagame*. There's just no need to SD up against so many teams in this meta when something like m-Sab isn't in the HP slot. You either sweep without the extra attack or a Stallbreaker set does the same thing, but w/o KO'ing yourself. Also, there are plenty of strong wall breakers to complement this Talonflame set.
*There may be a way to get better results/stats by investing some EVs in Atk (enough to KO most stuff on Deo-A offense after hazards), then placing it in the SpDef slot on an Arceus team. If it isn't banned, I'm going to try it!

For example, even with minimal investment Talonflame has the priority and power to destroy Offense once a single layer of hazards is up. Brave Bird is nuking most things on a Deo-A team with 120 Atk (Arceus) and it is certainly nuking everything with 150 Atk (pdon). That leaves the 3 remaining slots for Taunt + WoW + Roost to break Balance and Stall. Every Stall team I faced while laddering would have lost at team preview to SpDef Talon (obv. they weren't prepping for it, but the point remains it is very good at breaking that archetype). Overall, I think this combination of attacking power, speed/priority, and defensive utility will be too much.

edit: I updated the team for the 2nd ladder run.
Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 184 HP / 252 Def / 72 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Moonblast

Skarmory @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Iron Head
- Defog / Roost
- Swords Dance

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Wish
- Scald
- Toxic

Serperior @ Assault Vest
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Rhyperior @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Fire Punch
- Precipice Blades
- Solar Beam
- Swords Dance
 
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Funbot28

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Mega Sableye: Ban

The extra HP boost that Mega Sableye gains through the mechanics of Gift of the Gods patches most of its flaws that it faces with in standard play. Its ability, stats, and typing compliment itself perfectly into cultivating a threat that is extremely difficult to break down and stop without dedication at least 1-2 slots on your team for it. It turns stall into such a volatile playstyle with its utility set due to the fact that reflecting hazards is quite important for stall as hazards are usually the main mechanism to break down bulky walls. It also pertains a quite threatening Calm Mind set that could also sweep unprepared or sometimes even prepared teams at ease due to its becoming so bulky with the stat boosts in conjunction with the burn status effect. All these reasons combined allow Mega Sableye to have a quite constricting impact when teambuilding and centralizes the meta too much in order for it to stay. This is why I believe it should be remained banned.


Talonflame: Unban

I must admit I was a main proponent to the Talonflame suspect as I initially though that it too brought a constrain to teambuilding as Mega Sableye did. However, after playtesting a bit more and truly analyzing how exactly Talonflame effects the meta I soon came to realize that it offers the same impact as many other offensive threats such as Smeargle, Serperior, and Deoxys-A. Unlike Mega Sableye, reliable counterplay actually exists for it in ways of bulky waters that resist or are unscarred by Flying-type moves such as Rotom-W, Lanturn, Quagsire, and Alomomola. Higher priority (ie: Extreme Speed) also runs rampant in this metagame and acts as a safe way in revenge killing Talonflame as well. I do realize that Talonflame is very hard to play against at times and could potentially sweep teams as well, but I feel that it is much more manageable to deal with in comparison to Mega Sableye and such I believe it such be unbanned as of now.

I would also like to showcase the team I have been using during the suspect:




So this is an iteration of the infamous Scolipass OU team that has been floating around with a GoTG twist to it. The 120 BP donations from Arceus help numerous members of the team with their role and somewhat improves the effectiveness of the team as compared to its OU counterpart imo. Scolipede is the most vital member to the team as its the main pokemon to pass Speed Boosts and Substitutes to its partners in order for them to sweep more easily. Espeon is the sweeper that I like to pass to the most as Magic Bounce helps reflect ways to break the BP chains such as Whirlwind and Roar and can fire off powerful Stored Powers after a couple of Calm Mind boosts. Manaphy and Mega Heracross are other sweepers that can setup quite quickly and become extremely dangerous after even just one boost with Tail Glow and Swords Dance respectively. Smeargle is there to deal with opposing priority and could pick off offensive threats to the team such as Serperior and Swellow. Finally, Arceus-Ghost is the god to the team as it acts as the teams normal immunity which could be helpful in dealing with priority such as Extreme Speed and it could also be passed boosts from Scolipede and sweep on its own as well. As you can see through my reqs proof, this team has lead me to numeorus wins and is quite effective in showcasing the capabilities of BP in GoTG.

Here is the importable:
Scolipede (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Attract
- Substitute
- Protect
- Baton Pass

Smeargle @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Bonemerang
- King's Shield

Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam
- Calm Mind
- Morning Sun

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 140 HP / 252 SpA / 116 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball
- Tail Glow

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Will-O-Wisp
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Heracross-Mega @ Heracronite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Pin Missile
- Rock Blast
- Swords Dance


sin(pi) you can add this to sample teams if u want ;)

E: A replay of the team in action
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/giftsofthegods-455882142

E2: I knew I remember seeing the team from somewhere, from blazenix specifically.
 
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