Pokémon Greninja

[Schpoonman]

CarnivorouSwarm: I'd say it really comes down to his lackluster physical movepool. 95 is perfectly serviceable (Kingdra makes it work, though he typically runs a boosting nature as well) and physical Greninja isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination, but he's like top UU or bottom OU as opposed to top OU, if that makes any sense. Why have the Hershey's bar when the gourmet French Silk pie is also right there? (no you cannot have both.gif)

 

[Lazybeef]

Stop using lick and shadow sneak. This is not a spinblocker for crying out loud. Use it to tear up everything instead. It sits there comfortably at base 122 speed, gets stab on every attack it uses (which is absolutely amazing, I just gotta put that out there) and it gets good enough coverage to threaten just about anything. It doesn't have the best SAtk/Atk, but I think we should be thankful for that...

 

[CarnivorouSwarm]

Because Greninja gets STAB on every move, he's better off remaining flexible so he has as wide coverage as possible. Compare him to Specs Kingdra (who I was really enjoying this last month or so): Kingdra get Ice Beam and it's extremely useful for hitting SpDef Celebi who otherwise walls you fairly well, but even then the power is just lacking a little bit, you need either hazards or previous damage for a guaranteed 2HKO, but if she switches in on Draco or Hydro Pump when fresh you're forced out. Greninja can use something like Spikes or Hydro Pump Celebi switches in and then immediately force it to retreat with a STAB Ice Beam which does 60% minimum. Also kinda what flUddOS said. Choice Greninja isn't bad but keeping him as flexible as possible will make sure he does the most amount of work possible. If you played the No Stealth Rock ladder, think of it in terms of DD Dragonite. No, mixed attacker Dragonite isn't bad but DD Dragonite is so fucking good without Stealth Rock that you're losing games you should otherwise be winning.

CarnivorouSwarm: I'd say it really comes down to his lackluster physical movepool. 95 is perfectly serviceable (Kingdra makes it work, though he typically runs a boosting nature as well) and physical Greninja isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination, but he's like top UU or bottom OU as opposed to top OU, if that makes any sense. Why have the Hershey's bar when the gourmet French Silk pie is also right there? (no you cannot have both.gif)

Yeah I think you're right there, the movepool does seem to be the crippling factor. I'm just wondering if the benefits of not having to deal with special walls will counter balance that. Probs not. I guess only time will tell.

 

[Schpoonman]

Stuff like Drain Punch (hell any of the Punches) would go a long way, so while I personally wouldn't do too much with physical Greninja outside of U-turn, Naive > Timid, etc, the move tutors in Z/XY2 could make a big change.

 

[flUddOS]

Well, how much does Power-Up Punch do to Chansey/Blissey/Snorlax/Tyranitar/etc? At +1, +2? I think that's really the hinge on whether or not Physical Greninja works - can he beat the popular Special Defense walls/sponges (which we have no idea about yet) with his current pool?

 

[CarnivorouSwarm]

Drain Punch sounds like it would be awesome on a physical set... But I guess you couldn't afford PUP and Drain Punch on the same set, and the +1 from PUP seems more important than giving health to a pokemon that can't really take a hit anyway.

I think flUddOS has a good point, I'd like to see calcs on PUP w/ Fighting Gem against Chansey/Blissey/Snorlax/TTar. I'd imagine it'd do plenty to TTar at the very least.

 

[Schpoonman]

252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Power Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 182-218 (25.85 - 30.96%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Power Up Punch vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 273-322 (41.87 - 49.38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Power Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 255-302 (63.11 - 74.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Those are with Life Orb. Even with a Fighting Gem, you don't get the OHKO on 252/0 Tyranitar, so I'd stick with a Life Orb. +0 LO PUP + +1 LO PUP > +1 PUP + +1 PUP. I think that's right, two consecutive +1 Power Up Punches isn't as strong as a LO-boosted Power Up Punch followed by a +1 LO-boosted Power Up Punch.

 

[Magolor]

If you are actually considering Lick you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for some crappy spinblocker/support set. Just pair him with Gengar or something, Ghost has decent Synergy with Dark anyway.

Anyway I have seen some people call him "Overhyped" but imo I still see him as a beast. Outspeeds most of the meta, decent offensive presence, STAB on every move, the ability to change type at your control AND moves such as Ice Beam, Spikes and U-Turn? Hell yes!

From what I can see the best way to milk his potential is the All Out Attacker and Spikes sets. Greninja doesn't need to be Frosslass when it can U-turn out and The All Out Attacker is shaping up to be one of the deadliest early game scouts/late game cleaners in the game. Hell it can even destroy HO teams with Sticky Web support.

In terms of flaws the main one is the inability to do much to walls aside from Spikes on switch in + U-Turn to a counter and depending on what type you are Priority can fuck you over (Even a resisted Bullet Punch from CB Scizor should main the poor frog) but other than that he's one of the elite few Kalos pokemon that I can see being an OU staple.

 

[Shroomisaur]

I've been using Greninja in all my Showdown teams lately and he's incredible. I've seen it used against me as a LO offensive spikes lead as well. Currently I've been running Ice Beam (by far my most-used attack) / Hydro Pump / Grass Knot / U-Turn, which works very well. Although I'm thinking about adding HP Fire after losing a match when it came down to a 1v1 with Ferrothorn...

Thanks to Lord of Bays for responding to thread questions this morning! it's like trying to hold down the fort.

 

[Lady Valkyrie]

Actually, Greninja CAN be viable against Mega Gengar. It out-speeds Regular Gengar, Scarfed it out-speeds Mega. It can run either Extrasensory or Dark Pulse for it, Extrasensory seems good for the likes or it and Lucario - but in the long run, Dark Pulse looks valuable for Jirachi, Celebi, Lati twins - again it's what you need coverage for. If it doesn't get the kill, Mega Gengar walls it with Shadow Ball/Focus Blast which are on just about all its sets, but that depends on the other player's prediction.

So I'm thinking a set like this,

Special Attacker

Greninja@Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Nature: Modest
EVs: 30 Def / 252 SAtk / 26 SDef / 200 Spd

Extrasensory
Grass Knot
Hydro Pump
Ice Beam

Seeing as it's Scarfed, getting those U-Turns off would be a lot harder, and know it doesn't have to fear too much from Mega Gengar.

Mega Gengar runs 382 Spd, so it only needs 200 Spd EVs to out-speed with a Scarf. Depending on how popular other megas become, 220 out-speeds M-Kam and M-Dactyl That's 56 EVs left over, if you're running a Mixed Set, chuck those in Atk, and change its Nature to something more positive. I evened out both its Defs at 97, as running Protean, I imagine it'll get hit by all sorts of things. Generally, I would have thrown it all into Def though as I'd expect people to run Fighting moves to hit in when it switches in or hitting it after it Ice Beams.

 

[Punchshroom]

The beautiful thing about Greninja is that it doesn't have to use Water or Dark moves; it can use whatever the hell it wants so long as it can easily KO its targets. Last time I mentioned Grass Knot, HP Fire and Extrasensory being the most effective combination against Spinners, but forgot about the existence of Defoggers...No problem! The majority of Defog users are Flying-type, which means Ice Beam (used over Extransensory) can easily dispatch them, the only exception being Scizor which gets sideswiped by HP Fire (watch out for Bullet Punch if Greninja is Ice-type on that turn!). Even then, one can keep Extrasensory if Toxic Spikes is used to hit Poison-types like Tentacruel harder. It's this kind of versatality that makes Greninja so flexible and good.

 

[Chaos11011]

I've been lurking the forums ever since Platinum but I thought I'd post here to discuss a Greninja set I've been using with some success.

Greninja @ Flying Gem
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Waterfall
- Acrobatics



I never really liked Greninja, to be honest. Everyone's been using Protean and it's just the most obvious thing ever. Just go for big and powerful Special moves with your fancy little Life Orb and watch things die.

I was a big fan of the idea of a Spiking Greninja though, so I decided to make a set off of that. Since this thing is primarily a lead, Taunt also helps, as Greninja is really fast and can help shut down a lot of things (like being able to outspeed common leads like Smeargle and stop them in their tracks).

Now, here is where the fun starts. Most Greninja run Special moves, mine runs Physical. The beauty of this set lies in Acrobatics, which powered with Flying Gem, after the Protean STAB, can punch a huge hole in someones team if they don't expect it. For those who have played Gen V, you would know that Flying is an incredible STAB to have, but it was pretty rare, as nearly everything with a Flying STAB would take huge amounts of damage from Stealth Rock, but, since Greninja is originally a Water-typed Pokemon, it will only take 12.5% from Stealth Rock. Acrobatics can also get rid of non-Focus Sash Scolipede before it even gets a chance to do its job. Waterfall also grants me an amazing Water/Flying coverage, as, iirc, only Lanturn, Empoleon and Rotom-W can resist this combination in the OU scene.

The good thing about this Pokemon is how versatile it is. You can either go suicide Spiking in the beginning of the match or save Greninja for some speedy KOs if needed. In addition, because of Protean, Greninja has a psuedo immunity to Electric, Psychic and Ground, which can prove to be very useful and can catch things like YacheChomp unexpectedly, as unless this set becomes popular, a Garchomp would want to EQ the frog and not go directly for the Outrage.

This Pokemon probably won't be popular or wreck OU anytime soon, but it has huge amounts of utility and in my opinion, this is the set that takes full advantage of the prediction based ability Protean is.

 

[The King of Harts]

I've noticed that Greninja is an excellent counter to Smeargle even without Taunt. Grass Knot right off the bat, become a Grass type and BAM, you're immune to Spore. The only Smeargle to ever get the better of me was a scarfed lead, which I didn't even imagine was feasible. Actually, now that I look at his stats...that shouldn't be possible. Scarf Smeargle hits 373 speed. Greninja has 377, so how the hell did it outspeed me? Damn Showdown. Oh, and ones that lead with Sticky Web avoid the "Spore fake" as well, but they aren't nearly as common.

I usually lead with Sash Infernape, but every time I see a Smeargle I know it's time to lead with Greninja.

 

[Wise Walrus]

Has anyone tried a banded Greninja? I've been using this set with fairly high success so far on showdown.

Greninja Choice Band
Protean
252 Atk, 252 Spe, 4 HP
Jolly
-Waterfall
-Shadow Sneak
-U-Turn
-Return

His base attack isn't great but it is usable, mostly I've been using him as a lead and u-turning into a SR/spiker. Waterfall, U-turn and shadow sneak work great together, and though lately I've been running return just for better damage that last move slot is pretty much free for anything. High natural base speed lets him outspeed pretty much anything that isn't scarfed and he resists several forms of priority. Also, the most common Greninja sets I've seen are scarfed special attackers so it has somewhat of an element of surprise. Technically you could use a Life Orb to prevent being locked into one move but I haven't tried it and I'm not convinced it's worth the damage trade-off. Anyways, let me know what you guys think.

 

[Swaginator]

I know it's been said before but I really feel like putting a choice item on greninja really kills the whole purpose of protean

 

[Shroomisaur]

To be fair, anything with STAB U-Turn is worth looking into a Choice Band set, and Protean Greninja is no exception. Banded STAB Priority is a nice bonus too, but physical Ninja really misses Ice Beam. To me, the real question is, "Is there something better it could be doing?" and with Protean Greninja I'd say the answer is yes. Life Orb gives you plenty of power while maintaining your ability to go mixed and sweep late-game.

Speaking of Life Orb, lately I have been trying Expert Belt Greninja and thus far I've been much more happy with EB than LO. Greninja just loses so much HP U-Turning with LO that it gets worn down into KO range very quickly. Expert Belt allows you to make use of your excellent coverage and also bluff a Choice Scarf (yes CS Ninja is out there). The one downside is that EB Greninja loses a few guaranteed OHKOs (specifically Multiscale DNite), but it's definitely worth consideration.

 

[Wise Walrus]

I guess it depends on what you are trying to use it for then. I really don't want it to sweep late game even though it has for me a few times. Really I'm just using it as a hole-puncher and I'd rather not take the recoil from life orb while u-turning like you mentioned. The team I'm using atm is centered around a mixed life orb salamence and a mega lucario sweeping after setting up hazards. To be honest I don't think I've ever needed/wanted ice beam on my Ninja. If I was going to go mixed for any reason it would be grass knot just for spore etc. as was mentioned above since I use it as a lead, and because I don't have a grass type to take them right now. That just seems way too situational to justify it though.

 

[Xaris]

I honestly don't feel safe with Ice beam on a protean greninja. It's more likely for him to take a hit from a fighting move due to his dark weakness (ex: scizor or tyranitar's superpower, toxicroak, breloom, lucario, anyone with focus blast, and tons of others). Protean will help on an Ice beam stab, but will not change the dynamic on his defenses. I've calculated his weaknesses, and he can survive a neutral superpower from a few threats, but if he becomes ice type than he will still get super effective. if he can survive a hit from tyranitar he could probably turn a match around. I may sound like a total noob, but I've tested it and it works pretty well.

 

[Schpoonman]

I honestly don't feel safe with Ice beam on a protean greninja. It's more likely for him to take a hit from a fighting move due to his dark weakness (ex: scizor or tyranitar's superpower, toxicroak, breloom, lucario, anyone with focus blast, and tons of others). Protean will help on an Ice beam stab, but will not change the dynamic on his defenses. I've calculated his weaknesses, and he can survive a neutral superpower from a few threats, but if he becomes ice type than he will still get super effective. if he can survive a hit from tyranitar he could probably turn a match around. I may sound like a total noob, but I've tested it and it works pretty well.

Ice Beams coverage is far too important. The only things you have to fear from any of these is priority which is EXTREMELY obvious (Scizor and Lucario's Bullet Punch, Breloom's Mach Punch). Anything else is much slower than you are and you can proceed to crush it with a different attack.

 

[haunter]

I shouldn't really be forced to state this, but this forum is for competitive Pokemon discussion only. If you have questions about in-game stuff, then use the Orange Islands forum. Thanks.

 

[C AllStar]

Greninja @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature / Naive Nauture
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power Fire

This is the typical set for special attacking water types, while also the only non-spiking set Greninja should run. It makes use of all Greninja's advantages including insane speed and high power coverage thanks to Protean. Water/Ice/Grass has near perfect neutral coverage while all of the moves have good base power, hitting everything for great damage thanks to Protean STAB. Hidden power fire is for 4x weak targets such as Ferrothorn and Scizor. U-turn is not a good option since you aren't scouting anything with team preview (look at the UU Viability Thread about Ambipom). It's only use is to hit Celebi, Lati@s and Assault Vest Tyranitar for decent damage, most of which are shared with Ice Beam while Tyranitar beats it with Pursuit anyway. It should be used like Ambipom in UU and Aerodacyl in RU which fucks up offense while still doing decently against defensive teams. LO is the best item to take advantage of Greninja's coverage, but scarf is an underrated option to revenge kill everything with a SE STAB move.

Physical sets are bad when it has weak attack PLUS weak moves. STAB Power Up Punch is basically equal to Howl when the damage is just negligible.

252 Atk (custom) (Move 1) vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 74-90 (21.02 - 25.56%) -- possible 5HKO
+1 252 Atk (custom) (Move 1) vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 110-132 (31.25 - 37.5%) -- 0.02% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk (custom) (Move 1) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 210-248 (32.2 - 38.03%) -- 0.85% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk (custom) (Move 1) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 140-168 (19.88 - 23.86%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk (custom) (Move 1) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 196-232 (57.3 - 67.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It has basically the utility of Rock Smash Mightyema when running such a move. Acrobatics is cool with Flying Gem to lure and kill grass types, but its only notable niche over special attacking set's Ice Beam is hitting MegaVenusaur, which isn't really a big threat I think. Saying it break walls is silly when every physical wall walls it no matter how hard it boosts.

+1 252 Atk (custom) Waterfall vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 90-106 (27.52 - 32.41%) -- possible 4HKO
+6 252 Atk (custom) Waterfall vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 238-282 (72.78 - 86.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk (custom) Waterfall vs. 224 HP / 32 Def Skarmory: 115-136 (35.16 - 41.59%) -- 82.96% chance to 3HKO
+6 252 Atk (custom) Waterfall vs. 224 HP / 32 Def Skarmory: 306-361 (93.57 - 110.39%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

It cannot OHKO SpDef Skarmory reliably even at +6 lol.

252 Atk (custom) Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 134-162 (31.9 - 38.57%) -- 2.08% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk (custom) Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 204-242 (48.57 - 57.61%) -- 52.34% chance to 2HKO

Hippo can avoid the 2HKO from either two Waterfalls or Power Up Punch + Waterfall and phaze it out. Don't forget that Hippo is weak to water.

+1 252 Atk (custom) Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 90-106 (25.42 - 29.94%) -- possible 4HKO

252 Atk (custom) Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 168-198 (41.68 - 49.13%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

-1 252 Atk (custom) Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 132-156 (34.64 - 40.94%) -- 58.08% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk (custom) Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 192-228 (50.39 - 59.84%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk (custom) Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 126-150 (31.97 - 38.07%) -- 0.71% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk (custom) Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 186-222 (47.2 - 56.34%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO

Every Physical Wall in the tier easily takes Greninja's boosted hits and either phaze it out and recover back their health latter or straight up koing it thanks to its paper thin defenses. Other moves such as Lick are dumb. I would rather use Scald Alomomola over it (hint: it's bad) when it is equal to using a 30% accuarcy t-wave in addition to block spin situationally. It's Shadow Sneak is even weaker than Dusknoir's, which sucks obviously. I honestly see no point running a physical set on Greninja.

Greninja is certainly a top threat in OU this generation with its common sets being either offensive spikes or all out attacker. Some sort of lure sets like E-belt Jirachi may be developed to take out specific counters throughout the generation thanks to its unlimited potential with protean. I could see it as a premier offensive water tying with Starmie in terms of viability.

 

[Schpoonman]

Those calcs aren't exactly fair. Why aren't you running Life Orb? I'm not saying it suddenly makes physical Greninja good but...

252 Atk Life Orb (custom) Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 218-257 (54.09 - 63.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...is a pretty stark difference when compared to...

252 Atk (custom) Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 168-198 (41.68 - 49.13%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Jin White]

Steering us back on topic...

Any ideas for a counter to this guy, especially for his offensive lead sets? I'm using celetran and a thundurus (yeah not legal until december, I know) and froakie is just too much trouble. All I can do is sac thundurus with a priority t-wave and hope to revenge the thing.

I know hard counters will be tricky due to protean, but any tips on stopping the guy without resorting to sacking one of my mons?

 

[OverMind]

priority moves - as long as it hits before greninja moves, one would be OK

 

[Schpoonman]

Priority isn't perfect. It depends on the set that Greninja himself is running. You'd think that Breloom would be a pretty set check but if Greninja is carrying Shadow Sneak and Ice Beam you're pretty much fucked. Your best bets are the blobs, whereas Greninja's only recourse is to U-turn out.