Heavy Offense

[Anachronism]

"Scizor-based HO" has really already been done. It is just a team that is walled by Rotom-A basically, ie Gyarados, Metagross, Scizor, filler, filler.

So far here is my short list of viable physical HO sweepers:

DD Gyarados
DD Tyranitar
DD Salamence
DD Dragonite
DD Kingdra
SD Scizor
SD Lucario
SD Infernape
RP Metagross (or Agiligross)

Honorable Mentions:
RP Aggron

Still need to test:
SD Gallade
Flame Orb or SD Heracross
RP or SD Rhyperior (meh)
Agillity Lucario (could work)
Agility Scizor (probably won't work)

Does anyone think that a fighting HO team would work, similar to Stathakis' first team but more focused? Something along the lines of: Flame Orb Heracross, SD Lucario, SD Gallade, SD Infernape, and Agiligross/DD Tar that can set up on psychics. Not sure what the best number of fighting types would be, but it could be a decent idea. Close Combat is beastly.

One more thing: MetaGross66 recently made a team that he dubbed "Bulky HO," where he basically has multiple sub/calm minders that can set up on blissey and also a lucario. Essentially, both physical walls and the premier special wall are useless, which means that they have to rely on mixed walls like swampert. The team can wear down mixed walls and then sweeps. Currently I don't think the synergy is there to call it a HO team, but it could certainly be there with only a few minor changes, and it is a concept that should be looked into. I really like the idea of something along the lines of DS Azelf/Sub CM Cune/Sub CM Jirachi/Sub Charge Beam Rotom/SD Lucario/filler but currently the problem is finding a synergistic filler at least in my eyes. MetaGross66 can tell you more about it or maybe he can link you to his thread.

 

[GoldDraconian]

Roserade lead for Toxic Spikes is as viable on HO as it is elsewhere, although it is true that it's difficult to work in Stealth Rock elsewhere so you do need to be sure that isn't going to trip you up that badly. Also I would like to note that I found Venomoth better than Roserade last time I was messing around with a Toxic Spikes lead, although if you don't see many lead Jirachis then there's probably not enough justification to use the bug.

Thanks you Anachronism for directing me to that team, I hadn't seen it before. Coincidentally, I have also been looking into a "bulky HO" style, although I haven't come up with a refined version yet. Basically, all-special teams run into problems mostly with Choice Scarves much more than with Blissey, so using some bulky pokes who can take the Choiced attacks and set up is a response worth investigating. As a rough sketch, I'm thinking of something like a core of SubCM Jirachi + CM Latias + CM Suicune (stalker, 3 attacks or Sub are all possible), with a Toxic Spiker of some sort to really limit Blissey's walling potential, plus Rotom to spinblock, and whatever as a sixth to round things out. It definitely strays from being a typical HO team and loses offensive potential comparatively, but at the same time it picks up some of the forgiveness and possibilities for prediction inherent in bulky offense while retaining some of the strengths HO possesses. I do think this is a path worth exploring.

 

[MetaGross66]

The link to the RMT is in my sig. ;)

Basically, that's what the team does. The only problem you could say is its weakness to pseudo hazers. In that case I must take it out quickly or put myself into a last pokemon situation (which usually ends with the opposition's defeat FYI). I don't really see where the synergy is lacking as the pokemon cover each other well and the weaknesses are few. Someone suggested adding a pokemon that can hit hard from the start and that just might beat the pseudo hazers that trouble teams like this. For those of you that want to look further into this style of play you can do it when you like. :)

 

[Iggeh]

Anti-HO Rant

I'm thinking starting an entire other topic would be a bit too extreme, so I'd like to express my opinion here that heavy offense is an absolute horrible development in the metagame. I had been fine with it at first, when heavy offense was first invented and utilized by a select few who burned through the ladder. But now that this board has been created and the idea is proliferating, I feel the need to openly declare my feelings on 'Heavy Offense".

Let me make this clear from the beginning: I'm not arguing that Heavy Offense is a bad strategy. In fact, I'm almost arguing the opposite. My problem with Heavy Offense (or, as I like to call it, LEVEL ZERO) is that it takes minimal skill to win. I'm no expert on it so feel free to correct me on this, but the way I interpret this 'strategy' is that you basically send out a suicide lead and 5 offensive Pokemon out in a row and hope that your opponent's team is gone before your last sweeper has bitten the dust, the crucial point being that you "eliminate (whoops my bad 'minimize')prediction." To me, it sounds like Pokemon has been simplified into a game that a 10 year-old can master in about 3 hours. But wait! It's not that simple! Heavy Offense requires you to think long-term! It seems to me that's the primary argument against my completely narrow-minded and completely biased analogy. But you say that as if long-term thinking has never existed in Pokemon before. Am I wrong to think that contemporary strategies (bulky offense and stall) never required players to think in the long term at an equal, if not greater, extent than you do with HO? And in those teams, you have to worry about many, many more variables such as countering Pokemon and defensive synergy and the like. Heavy Offense only requires you to think about two things: wall-breaking and revenge sweeping.

I find LEVEL ZERO to be incredibly similar in nature to the Baton Pass team of Advance yore: the team that could basically steamroll the metagame with absolutely no skill. The two share many commonalities. BP teams had only a few very select weaknesses: priority, Perish Song, hax. Unless you''re using a very specialized team that will get wrecked by the other 95% of the metagame, chances are your team will not match up well. Similarly, HO is only weak to multitudes of Choice Scarfers and priority users, a team that would fail against most of the rest of the metagame, and hax. Both teams also take absolutely no creativity to build. I'm staring at Anachronism's list of viable sweepers at the moment, and it seems to me that the selection of viable Pokemon is pathetically small, not to mention the fact that they all are restricted to using one set. Another huge reason that BP teams had such a stigma to them in Advance was that it completely degraded gameplay. This, too, I see happening with HO teams. This next thing is attributed to my horrible team building skill, but in my experience, battles with HO are lost to one before the battle even begins, simply because my team cannot even counter an HO team on paper. Losing in such a way is obviously completely demoralizing and and not fun at all, but even if you win, how much satisfaction do you take from it? It's sort of like, "Ok, I just beat someone who did not make one ounce of prediction and probably built their team 5 times quicker than I built mine."

So yeah. I hate Heavy Offense. And I'm about a month and a half late. >_>

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

way to not read his post -_-

 

[Sheshi]

Let me make this clear from the beginning: I'm not arguing that Heavy Offense is a bad strategy. In fact, I'm almost arguing the opposite. My problem with Heavy Offense (or, as I like to call it, LEVEL ZERO) is that it takes minimal skill to win.

Why level zero? Heavy Offense takes a lot of skill to win with. The sweepers need to have almost perfect synergy with each other.

I'm no expert on it so feel free to correct me on this, but the way I interpret this 'strategy' is that you basically send out a suicide lead and 5 offensive Pokemon out in a row and hope that your opponent's team is gone before your last sweeper has bitten the dust, the crucial point being that you "eliminate prediction."

Its a little more than that. You have a suicide lead yes. The 5 Offensive Pokemon do not need to be frail sweepers. Bulky sweepers may be included. The crucial point is that HO aims to eliminate prediction or minimize it.

To me, it sounds like Pokemon has been simplified into a game that a 10 year-old can master in about 3 hours. But wait! It's not that simple! Heavy Offense requires you to think long-term! It seems to me that's the primary argument against my completely narrow-minded and completely biased analogy. But you say that as if long-term thinking has never existed in Pokemon before. Am I wrong to think that contemporary strategies (bulky offense and stall) never required players to think in the long term at an equal, if not greater, extent than you do with HO? And in those teams, you have to worry about many, many more variables such as countering Pokemon and defensive synergy and the like. Heavy Offense only requires you to think about two things: wall-breaking and revenge sweeping.

Pokemon is much more complex that what you describe. Long term thinking has always existed in Pokemon and is especially prominent in stall teams. HO does worry to some extent. It needs to worry about what the opponent is using so they can react and send out the appropriate Pokemon.

I find LEVEL ZERO to be incredibly similar in nature to the Baton Pass team of Advance yore: the team that could basically steamroll the metagame with absolutely no skill. The two share many commonalities. BP teams had only a few very select weaknesses: priority, Perish Song, hax. Unless you''re using a very specialized team that will get wrecked by the other 95% of the metagame, chances are your team will not match up well. Similarly, HO is only weak to multitudes of Choice Scarfers and priority users, a team that would fail against most of the rest of the metagame, and hax.

I must say, your comparison of Baton Pass teams and HO teams is, to be quite frank, laughable. Baton Pass teams are easily stopped and these days are counterable. Perish Song, Taunt, Haze are just 3 ways of stopping those chains. HO in no way downgrades the current metagame. It actually provides a new form of battling, with the best way to stop it being excellent prediction work and a well-built team. I draw your attention to your own admission:

...my horrible team building skill...

If your team building skill is so horrible, then of course you don't stand a chance against HO. I myself have found HO difficult to stop yes, but that doesn't mean its impossible to stop. Full Stall is perhaps the best way to stop HO.
Anachronism's list had the viable sweepers. But nothing was said about those that could be used. But remember, these are viable sweepers according to Anachronism's point of view.
This particular line and I quote:

Both teams also take absolutely no creativity to build

Please create a HO team for everyone to look at. I am sure that if it takes no creativity (as you so said), then you should be able to whip one up in no time no?

This next thing is definitely at least partially attributed to my horrible team building skill, but in my experience, battles with HO are lost to one before the battle even begins, simply because my team cannot even counter an HO team on paper. Losing in such a way is obviously completely demoralizing and and not fun at all, but even if you win, how much satisfaction do you take from it? It's sort of like, "Ok, I just beat someone who did not make one ounce of prediction and probably built their team 5 times quicker than I built mine."

Battles against HO are only decided if you have no idea how to combat HO teams, which is what you have implied here (at least to me). Winning with HO is harder than you think. Its not just set up and attack.

I clicked the send button before I was ready. I need to delete my previous post.

 

[GoldDraconian]

Well, I think Iggeh does make some good points- particularly on the prediction thing, since it's pretty legitimate to claim that prediction is the heart of playing the game. I do think that, depending on how things go down, HO still makes use of prediction to an appreciable extent, and certainly requires the pilot to play well in order to succeed consistently. I think you can also make the case that just about every team other than bulky offense works to simplify the game for its player as well. For example, stall reacts all the time, but it is making obvious predictions in the majority of situations, and its bulk and recovery let it compensate for the occasional mispredict- but I don't think anybody is complaining about stall taking the skill out of the game (are they?).

Also, even though HO is theoretically supposed to mitigate prediction and therefore be easy to play in some sense, in practice I don't think you see many games where a bad HO player beats an opponent he shouldn't beat. I haven't been keeping score, but I'm pretty confident that my record against average-ish players running HO is quite good because they don't play it properly (often because they fail to make predictions when they should, or they sacrifice key components of their offense too easily). This is just my experience, but I have rarely if ever lost to a lower-rated player using HO. I have a respectable record against higher-rated players using HO and I'm not running any particular tech against it- it's a matter of converting your intrinsic informational edge over them (because you can sketch out basically what their team needs to look like right away) into a win.

 

[Ferrouswheel]

I have to agree with Iggeh, Heavy Offense is much easier to learn and use. The reason why a newbie (like myself) can do decently with HO with a minimum of battle experience is simple. Without prediction (or at least with it greatly reduced) it means that a player would not have to know all the likelihoods of what is going to come next from a player.

HO is more complicated than Iggeh says, but the basic point of it being easier to learn for a new player is true.

 

[Lee]

Well Iggeh, you're not the first one to express that sentiment in this thread. Goofball said some similar things earlier:

"Heavy Offense" is pretty much the easiest thing to use. It requires little to no thinking skills and just hitting as hard as possible. Personally you have to be extremely retarded to not have success with this kind of team.

I've always been of the opinion that Heavy Offense was the bastard child of all the 4th Gen additions that were generally accepted as being negative; things like Life Orb, Draco Meteor, Stealth Rock, Close Combat and all of the other high powered moves that led people to predict all those years ago that DP would become a mindless offense fest. I don't think that prediction has come to pass but HO certainly gives those people the right to say 'well, I wasn't completely wrong...'

Honestly, if somebody had showed me the team in the OP back in early 2007 and said 'this is the kind of team that people will use in the 4th Gen' I probably wouldn't have bothered picking up DP.

 

[Anachronism]

I agree that a metagame with ONLY ho would be quite unbearable, and I would probably not have bothered using shoddy if someone told me that is what every team looked like, but instead HO is one of many viable team styles, and therefore contributes to a balanced and multi-dimensional metagame. I think that it is quite amazing that this generation has not yet been defined by one style of play. RBY was completely offense, with chancey and slobro as the only truly wallish things that saw play. GSC was the polar opposite with the intro of spikes and skarm bliss as well as terrible options for mixed sweepers. ADV, often lauded as the most diverse generation, was dominated by Baton Pass. Offense wasn't the only thing that got a huge boost in the transition. Stealth Rock is epic for both stall and offense, and things like hippowdon and rotom a are a godsend to stall.

On another note, the team in the OP is rather average. There is very little real team synergy when compared to a team like mine, which has a clear focus and isn't just an amalgamation of the best sweepers in the tier. I think that people really undervalue the team-building aspect of HO. IT ISN'T THROWING AZELF AND 5 GOOD SWEEPERS ON A TEAM! It is important to ensure that everything on the team is walled by pretty much the same stuff. IMO, a team with Salamence on it should never have a Gyarados on it too. The stuff that walls each of them is for the most part different, other than a slight intersection for some bulky waters. Look at the types of team ideas I have talked about (not trying to brag here, just making a point). A team like Gyara/Scizor/Metagross is Rotom A walled. The double-dragon team is all walled by steel types. A team full of close combat spammers has obvious synergies. THIS is the type of thing that HO needs to be, not just throwing Gyara, Mence, and Ape on the same team and calling it good

About bulky HO: The problem I have found for a team full of calm minders is that most of the good ones have sort of bad two-move coverage. A team like Sub CM Cune, Sub CM Jirachi, Sub Charge Beam Rotom, etc. would beat blissey and would certainly wear down phasers, but they would be owned by offense imo because there is nothing stopping the opponent from bringing in the thing that your coverage neglects and setting up on you. Also, there is a surprising lack of good sub cmers or ghost type cmers/charge beamers, and you have no priority/dd-like moves to kill anything if it sets up. Most of the stuff with 101 subs have terrible typing for coverage. here is a list of stuff that can set up on blissey I would consider using (I got this list just by looking at a list of cmers that have at least 100 base hp or are ghost type):

Sub CM Jirachi (Flash Cannon/Tbolt is ok I guess)
Sub CM Suicune (Surf + hp electric/Ice beam is meh)
Sub Charge Rotom (pretty decent coverage actually)
Sub CM Mismagius (scizor only takes neutral from hp fighting, thunderbolt can't end blissey)
Sub CM Cresselia (Bolt/Beam is meh, Psychic/x is meh, anything w/o hp fighting is walled by ttar)
Sub CM Entei (Yeah, this is sort of gimmicky, and Fire/x is not very good coverage)
Sub CM Celebi (Grass stab is garbage, and psychic stab isn't much better)

Yeah...

also, as far as metagross66's claim that his team is synergistic, I 5-0d someone named "ParisHilton" that was using your team by using scarftar stall. Lucario ends up walled by gyara or rotom no matter what. mence is walled by skarm all day, and swampert can take it on in the endgame. Jirachi has problems with pert also. non-pert bulky waters like gyarados can phaze cune all day, and blissey can take it out if she has to provided there is a sandstorm. Better yet, the opponent could whip out their own cune. Rotom was walled by pert also, and allowed pert to regain health after the first jirachi beating. Tyranitar also took out Azelf before it did anything other than taunt.

 

[Ferrouswheel]

On another note, the team in the OP is rather average. There is very little real team synergy when compared to a team like mine, which has a clear focus and isn't just an amalgamation of the best sweepers in the tier. I think that people really undervalue the team-building aspect of HO. IT ISN'T THROWING AZELF AND 5 GOOD SWEEPERS ON A TEAM! It is important to ensure that everything on the team is walled by pretty much the same stuff. IMO, a team with Salamence on it should never have a Gyarados on it too. The stuff that walls each of them is for the most part different, other than a slight intersection for some bulky waters. Look at the types of team ideas I have talked about (not trying to brag here, just making a point). A team like Gyara/Scizor/Metagross is Rotom A walled. The double-dragon team is all walled by steel types. A team full of close combat spammers has obvious synergies. THIS is the type of thing that HO needs to be, not just throwing Gyara, Mence, and Ape on the same team and calling it good

I believe that building a stall team or a bulky offense team, or whatever, would take just as much team planning as building a HO. Do you agree?

If you agree that HO team building is no harder than for any other team, then it means the fact that you don't have to predict as much as you do for other teams makes it more newbie friendly. This is not to say that anyone could just that a HO team and run with it, or that some people would run a HO team better than others. My opinion is that HO just has a different learning curve than other common types of teams.

 

[MetaGross66]

That's what I would call an anti-team....

Yes, the team has individuals that wall my pokemon individually, but the team, as stated earlier has a problem with swampert, especially when paired with Skarmory. That's what I would call full stall for the most part and very, very few people use it now due to bulky offense's presence. Justinawe and I decided to take advantage of that. ;)

Also, that person probably wasn't using it correctly. Can you provide a log?

As for the team building process of HO teams, they really should have though put into them. Like Anachronism said, it's not 5 good sweepers and an Azelf, though that is what most people see it to be. There are better things out there than Azelf such as Aerodactyl who sports better speed. Alakazam does the DS job slightly better (you'll miss out on the bulk and SR). Sweepers should be able to cover each other well, and take out a common counter to each other. That's basically what the team building process is from how I see it.

Well, I've decided to see how the team is doing after not touching it for weeks. I won my first battle like 3-0 so not much worries there. I think the guy saw my team since he switched Celebi in on Lucario after sending in Heatran. Odd since Celebi and Suicune make a great match after a double switch.... I know one match isn't much to decide whether the team is still doing well, but it's not doing as well as it could be and that is what happens over time. People learn to counter a team when you put it up for display, sadly.

 

[Myzozoa]

I don't feel like its fair to say that HO requires no skill. I can definitely understand why this is said, but the reality is that unskilled is exactly what dppt is. In advance long term stall wars requiring prediction and long term thinking were pretty common (from what i've heard). To me it seems like any team I use is going to take about the same amount of skill as a HO team. I look at the bulky offense teams used by a lot of the top players. They follow a consistent formula throughout. Right now team roserade-skarmory-roar latias-scarf rachi-blissey-rotom is being spammed all over the place. This team doesn't seem any less mindless than HO. These teams quite literally spam entry hazards.Then when enough are up, latias spam roar until enough things are weakened to be taken out by rachi and rotom. This isn't so much different from spamming set-up moves until enough things are weakened that something sweeps.

 

[mtr]

I think that we should make an effort to disassociate 'skill' with what sounds like 'prediction'. I've had quite a few misadventures with HO teams that usually involve doing stuff like sacrificing the wrong sweeper, giving up something too early, being too aggressive with setting up, losing my head upon seeing a scarfer, etc. Someone more skilled at HO than I could inevitably avoid such mistakes. This is similar to stall, which some say requires no skill either. Instead, stall requires a different form of skill, such as thinking 10 turns in advance rather than in the moment.

 

[Nitzleplick]

I don't see how HO lacks any level of skill. Most matches these days are pure guess work. Is he running that move or this one? Is he going to switch or stay in? When you boil it down and decide that nothing matters but the end of the game, and how to win as quickly as possible and efficiantly, that's where skill comes in.

I am not lucky, but I can take a cookie cutter stall team and win rather easily with it just by making unconventional guesses to fool my opponent.

 

[GoldDraconian]

About bulky HO: The problem I have found for a team full of calm minders is that most of the good ones have sort of bad two-move coverage. A team like Sub CM Cune, Sub CM Jirachi, Sub Charge Beam Rotom, etc. would beat blissey and would certainly wear down phasers, but they would be owned by offense imo because there is nothing stopping the opponent from bringing in the thing that your coverage neglects and setting up on you. Also, there is a surprising lack of good sub cmers or ghost type cmers/charge beamers, and you have no priority/dd-like moves to kill anything if it sets up. Most of the stuff with 101 subs have terrible typing for coverage. here is a list of stuff that can set up on blissey I would consider using (I got this list just by looking at a list of cmers that have at least 100 base hp or are ghost type):

Sub CM Jirachi (Flash Cannon/Tbolt is ok I guess)
Sub CM Suicune (Surf + hp electric/Ice beam is meh)
Sub Charge Rotom (pretty decent coverage actually)
Sub CM Mismagius (scizor only takes neutral from hp fighting, thunderbolt can't end blissey)
Sub CM Cresselia (Bolt/Beam is meh, Psychic/x is meh, anything w/o hp fighting is walled by ttar)
Sub CM Entei (Yeah, this is sort of gimmicky, and Fire/x is not very good coverage)
Sub CM Celebi (Grass stab is garbage, and psychic stab isn't much better)

Yeah...

I suspect that 1-2 guys able to SubCM against Blissey is adequate, I don't think you need a full team of them necessarily. It's not hard to lure Blissey out typically, so there's not too much danger of losing your Blissey killers while you need them, and adding Toxic Spikes makes her life hell anyway. This leaves you free to use things like CM/3 attack Suicune which don't leave much opportunity for opponents to set up. The lack of strong special priority is a problem that plagues all special-oriented teams, but a bulkier variant can at least compensate by being able to take a hit.

This concept might be far enough away from regular HO that it qualifies as diverging from the topic, but I still find it interesting. If nobody else latches on to it, perhaps I'll drop it here.

 

[blasphemy1]

Honestly, if somebody had showed me the team in the OP back in early 2007 and said 'this is the kind of team that people will use in the 4th Gen' I probably wouldn't have bothered picking up DP.

I don't understand this at all. The wifi metagame is completely separate from this one, and if the video game itself isn't compelling, then I feel sorry for you(then again the majority of the people here play the game because it is an 'RPG' rather than the unique monsters and such).

 

[Nitzleplick]

I think any special HO team should have Sub/Petaya Empoleon.. but he tends to like Roselia to set up Toxic Spikes

 

[MetaGross66]

I'd definitely be willing to investigate and I bet Justinawe would be as well. Do you really think it's that far away from HO? It does play somewhat differently, however, it plays quite similar as well and is most definitely nothing seen before. I don't know if it deserves a thread. I thought it would be categorized under a form of HO.

Edit: lol, I battled someone on the smogon server that I never battled before and he was using DS rotom and I asked if that person got it from my thread. His reply was, "He got it from me." I got a good laugh out of that.

 

[mtr]

If anyone is still using Zor/Gross/Gyara hyperoffense teams, then you may want to try out this set over the standard LOGyara.

Gyarados (M) @ Wacan Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 92 HP/252 Atk/166 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Earthquake
---
The EVs are made to guarantee that you outspeed a +1 positive-natured Scarf-Latias, as any more speed is rather unnecessary. The only downside to this set is, as Scofield eloquently pointed out, that "Jolly Gyara hits like a pussy". Basically, you are guaranteed to live through attacks like a Thunderbolt and proceed to sweep the opponent's team, provided that you either have screen support or have killed off Scizor. So if you weren't inclined to use this on hyperoffense, you would want Aerodactyl and Magnezone as partners, to make sure that its harder to put SR on the field and to see to it that Scizor ends up in a body bag.

 

[Sei]

If anyone is still using Zor/Gross/Gyara hyperoffense teams, then you may want to try out this set over the standard LOGyara.

Gyarados (M) @ Wacan Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 92 HP/252 Atk/166 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Earthquake
---

You could probably go with Adamant too if we're going with DS support. The boost from Adamant for the +2 DD Ice Fang will alleviate the chance of 2HKO on the standard Bold Zapdos. And with both Wacan Berry and Light Screen, the 0 SpA Thunderbolt from Bold Zapdos does only 45% dmg on maximum. +2 Ice Fang will also 1HKO 0 HP/0 Def Latias. The only thing to worry about during the initial DD would only be Jolteon, and we're pretty sure that there are other ways we can deal with her.

Edit: The Thunderbolt damage I gave on Gyarados is only with the 0 HP/0 SpD. So if more HP are being poured into, you can imagine how much bulkier the Gyarados can be. But with Jolly nature I can also understand the need to outspeed Heatran and Mamoswine, but in the above set with its particular EV it wasn't truly intended to outspeed those two initially. And since that kind of outspeeding wasn't viewed as too mandatory, it may as well serve better to go with more HP and Atk with Adamant nature.

That really makes me wanting to use Haban Salamence too. It can be bulkily EV'ed and letting it able to get +2 DDs. Dual Screen support is a must though. It would be extremely bulky to even survive Draco Meteor, but in exchange for Lum Berry. Then it can be partnered with Magnezone with T-Bolt/Sub/HP Grass/Explosion, Jirachi with FC/Wish/T-Bolt/CC, Rotom-A with Discharge/WoW/Reflect/Light Screen, Latias with DP/Roar/CC/Roost, and maybe lead DS-Taunt Azelf or Scarf Trickster Uxie.

But with bulky EVs ad Dual Screen, Salamence is still very capable of surviving a Draco Meteor and can then roost off some damage. So that would make Haban Berry a waste. It can start DDing and then Roost off the 50% weakened Draco Meteor afterward, and the total sweep commence. Pretty much just continue DD'ing and Roost'in for more power, then rinse and repeat. I think this is why Lum Berry is still more of a viable option for preventing things like Blissey and Celebi from T-Waving or Gliscor/Zapdos using Toxic which would prevent Salamence's sweep.

 

[XxJohny2haixX]

That could work, however the problem with that is thw two moveslot. Dragon + Fire (Outrage + Fire Blast) are walled by Heatran. And the other common moveset Dragon + Ground (Outrage + Earthquake) is walled completly by Skarmory and Bronzong.

However, that does add some bulk onto your team. One could with a more onorthodox moveset, such as Dragon + Water (Outrage + Aqua Tail) to hit all the aformentioned pokes, however then it gets walled by Empoleon.

In the end, the type coverage could be too great of a loss.

 

[The SPrinkLer]

I agree Johny. If you ran Dragon + Ground, Skarmory gets free Spikes on you, and if ran Dragon + Fire, Heatran could get free subs. The worst case scenario would be with Dragon + Water, because if Empoleon sets up on your HO team, it's game over. If you let anything set up, then it's pretty much game over. It's probably better just to run the regular Fire + Dragon + Ground, so nothing will set up.

 

[Game Freak201]

Recently I just made a new HO team that utilizes Outrage Spamming. Right now, it looks like this:

DS Azelf, DD Kingdra, DD Mence, DD Nite, ScarfGon, DS Uxie

DS Azelf sets up the momentum for the team, the three DDers will hopefully open up a sweep for themselves or for Flygon, ScarfGon is used for emergency revenge kills and for a potential end-game sweeper, and DS Uxie is used for backup.

The reason why I chose Uxie over something else such as Bronzong is due to the fact that Memento doesn't cause blind switches; although, I've been thinking of replacing it with Magnezone to have an easier time dealing with Steel types, but Uxie allows me to cushion potential ice type attacks - especially Ice Shard. Should I keep Uxie or should I switch it with Magnezone?

 

[blasphemy1]

Recently I just made a new HO team that utilizes Outrage Spamming. Right now, it looks like this:

DS Azelf, DD Kingdra, DD Mence, DD Nite, ScarfGon, DS Uxie

DS Azelf sets up the momentum for the team, the three DDers will hopefully open up a sweep for themselves or for Flygon, ScarfGon is used for emergency revenge kills and for a potential end-game sweeper, and DS Uxie is used for backup.

The reason why I chose Uxie over something else such as Bronzong is due to the fact that Memento doesn't cause blind switches; although, I've been thinking of replacing it with Magnezone to have an easier time dealing with Steel types, but Uxie allows me to cushion potential ice type attacks - especially Ice Shard. Should I keep Uxie or should I switch it with Magnezone?

I would personally use Magnezone. DS + Explosion is always nice, and he has a nice strong Thunderbolt(plus steel trapping capabilities). Screens won't always be up, so it is nice to have something to absorb Scizor's Bullet Punches and set up on him.