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Here Comes The Sun!
- Thread starter IcyMan28
- Start date
Not only this, but you also have to consider that outside of best-case scenario it's unlikely that Sun will always be up and using Solar Beam severely limits your attack options outside of Sunlight. If for whatever reason you have to attack outside of the sun, you're going to need something far more reliable than Solar Beam.
It's also worth noting that neither Politoed nor Tyranitar appreciate switching into STAB Grass moves in general so you can actually limit your opponent's ability to stop a Sun sweep with them; or at least kill their weather inducer in the process ensuring from that point on you control the weather. Once your opponent knows you have Solar Beam they can stop your sweep while simulatenously gaining advantage over weather and all without risking their Politoed/TTar/Hippo. This is especially important with the latter since Sun teams have far more reliance on their weather condition than Sandstorm teams do, and losing that advantage could easily cost you the game.
Sunny Day seems like it can be useful in ruining other weather based teams although it seems like ninetales is a lot more ...fragile than the other weather inducers.
is there any competitive merit in using it primarily to ruin opponents' offenses?
is there any competitive merit in using it primarily to ruin opponents' offenses?
I'll go ahead and mention Forretress as a valuable steel-type and TSpikes user, thanks for the mention.
I have no doubts as to its effectiveness, but abusing Chlorophyll is literally the only thing that Mebukijika does differently under the sun than in regular weather. All of the grass types I've mentioned have something else to offer (Venusaur's insane power, Victreebel's priority, Exeggutor's high[est] base special attack, Jumpluff's unmatched SubSeed, Shiftry's Dark-type and Nasty Plot, Tangrowth's bulk + fast sleep) than just a speed boost.
Shandera has already been mentioned for its ability to trap other weather-setters.
The only instances in which I'll make mention of Solarbeam are when the pokemon using the attack can easily deal with opposing weather-starters through other means, AND they have no other option / significant risk to themselves. In other words:
-Venusaur has Power Whip and Petal Dance as superior options.
-Leaf Blade / Power Whip is a better option on Victreebel.
-Exeggutor really wants Leaf Storm; Psychic-typing makes a Tar switch-in to Solarbeam lethal.
-Jumpluff: lol
-Shiftry: Seed Bomb on the physical side; the special side would prefer Giga Drain to restore health on water- and ground-types as Dark + Fighting is near-perfect coverage anyway.
-Tangrowth: I'll add it as an option, though Power Whip often suffices.
Ruining opponents' offense is quite viable; however, if you don't intend to take advantage of the weather, randomly including Sunny Day or a similar attack on one of your pokemon is probably a better choice, as it does not force you to use Ninetales.
I've found Poliwrath to be somewhat useful in the past for dealing with threats that sunny day teams have trouble with. Poliwrath has a water immunity, resistances to rock and fire, and can handle every other weather starter not named Politoed on his own.
I also think Shaymin deserves a mention. It's physical moveset is nonexistant...but growth counting as a nasty plot during sunlight makes seed flare an even greater threat than before. He's banned, but when I did the calcs for sky form, seed flare landed an 2HKO on 252/252 clam blissey. Air slash is an OHKO on Nattorei as well. Shaymin doesn't need HP Fire since he has access to air slash.
Land form shaymin may not have the speed, power, or stab on air slash. However it still has the same moveset, and additional bulk. How would he work out on a sunny day team?
I also think Shaymin deserves a mention. It's physical moveset is nonexistant...but growth counting as a nasty plot during sunlight makes seed flare an even greater threat than before. He's banned, but when I did the calcs for sky form, seed flare landed an 2HKO on 252/252 clam blissey. Air slash is an OHKO on Nattorei as well. Shaymin doesn't need HP Fire since he has access to air slash.
Land form shaymin may not have the speed, power, or stab on air slash. However it still has the same moveset, and additional bulk. How would he work out on a sunny day team?
^A water type on a sun team is definitely interesting. Any sets in particular you have in mind?
This pokemon, while fast and strong, faces stiff competition from more diverse grass-type sweepers under the sun, so I'm afraid it won't make the list unless several others can provide sound reasoning to the contrary.
This pokemon, while fast and strong, faces stiff competition from more diverse grass-type sweepers under the sun, so I'm afraid it won't make the list unless several others can provide sound reasoning to the contrary.
I would rather be walled by Skarmory than by Heatran. HP ground gets nearly everything that HP fire gets, excluding Skarm. The steel types are hurt enough at 2+, making HP fire's STAB boost nearly irrelevant.
True, but keep in mind that Power Whip is an egg move, and Chlorophyll is a dream world ability. DW Venusaur is confirmed to be an event, meaning it's gender is locked. If it's a male (which it will most likely be) Power Whip + Chlorophyll will be illegal. (since the DW ability trait is passed down via females only that's why I ignored it.
No thanks, being locked into a grass move (a type with many, many resistances) is a horrible idea.
Are all of the Kanto starters confirmed to be male? I know that the Eeveelutions and Croagunk are, but there hasn't been much about the starter pokemon.
And what was the final consensus regarding DW Ditto? If it is regarded as the female, the DW flag could very well be passed down.
At this point I'll leave Chlorophyll Power Whip, and HP Fire is just as viable an option as HP Ground (though the latter is arguably better due to partner fire-types keeping Skarmory at bay). Petal Dance is also an option as the majority of types resistant to Petal Dance are hit neutrally by STAB Sludge Bomb.
And what was the final consensus regarding DW Ditto? If it is regarded as the female, the DW flag could very well be passed down.
At this point I'll leave Chlorophyll Power Whip, and HP Fire is just as viable an option as HP Ground (though the latter is arguably better due to partner fire-types keeping Skarmory at bay). Petal Dance is also an option as the majority of types resistant to Petal Dance are hit neutrally by STAB Sludge Bomb.
Petal Dance 2HKOs the majority of things that resist it regardless. And you should have dealt with 4x resists before going for the sweep anyway.
You should add leafeon to the list. Her bulkyness (physical anyways) is awesome and she doubles her speed in the sun. She can heal her self (and others with wish), attack with leaf blade or return and use yawn to force switches. she is the go to for just about everything that I don't like xD
Include Flower Gift for multi-battles, also, mention the fact that Shaymin/Shaymin-S gets Growth + Seed Flare, since boosting Special Attack +2 in the Sun while having a chance to lower Special Defence is not too bad if you ask me. Plus with Access to Earth Power, they have decent coverage.
ALSO mention how well Cresselia pairs with Blaziken, as Blaz resists Bug, Dark, and resists weaker boosted Fire moves like Lava Plume, while Cresselia resists Psychic, Water (due to Sun), and is Immune to Ground. Same for Heatran, especially since Cresselia resists Focus Blast and other fighting moves!
Also, don't forget Celebi, remember, with the event it packs Nasty Plot, has Earth Power, Synthesis, can use Grass Knot, etc. It works great with Heatran as well.
On Victreebel, if you want a pure Special sweeper set, a set of Weather Ball, Hidden Power Ice, Sludge Bomb, and Growth seems pretty viable.
Hidden Power Ice handles Scarf Garchomp and Flygon, Salamence, Dragonite pretty nicely, as well as Gliscor. While Hidden Power Ground hits Heatran, Aggron, Magnezone (if used in Rain) and others much harder.
Sludge Bomb handles opposing (and Slower under Sun) Tangrowth, Jaroda, Exeggutor, etc. and hits many things neutral.
Weather Ball [Fire] hits at 150 Base Power with Sun, and hits Skarmary, Forretress, Scizor, Jirachi, Metagross much harder than Venasaur's Hidden Power Fire, because 150 x = 300, VS 105 x 2 = 210, and relies less on Growth for power as with higher Base Speed, it can invest directly into other stats.
VictoryBell @ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SpA
Timid
Growth
Weather Ball
Hidden Power [Ice] or [Ground]
Sludge Bomb
Victreebel @ Life Orb
252 Attack / 44 SpA / 212 Spe
Naive
Power Whip
Hidden Power Fire
Poison Jab / Return
Growth
In this set, Victreebel gets 1 Speed over the standard Victreebel and Venasaur set list in the OP, and has a stronger Power Whip than Venasaur coming off 309 Attack without a boosting Nature, while Venasaur sits at only a 289 Attack with a boosting Attack nature. Poison Jab hits Grass types and many foes neutrally like Flying types harder than Power Whip and a chance for status infliction.
ALSO mention how well Cresselia pairs with Blaziken, as Blaz resists Bug, Dark, and resists weaker boosted Fire moves like Lava Plume, while Cresselia resists Psychic, Water (due to Sun), and is Immune to Ground. Same for Heatran, especially since Cresselia resists Focus Blast and other fighting moves!
Also, don't forget Celebi, remember, with the event it packs Nasty Plot, has Earth Power, Synthesis, can use Grass Knot, etc. It works great with Heatran as well.
On Victreebel, if you want a pure Special sweeper set, a set of Weather Ball, Hidden Power Ice, Sludge Bomb, and Growth seems pretty viable.
Hidden Power Ice handles Scarf Garchomp and Flygon, Salamence, Dragonite pretty nicely, as well as Gliscor. While Hidden Power Ground hits Heatran, Aggron, Magnezone (if used in Rain) and others much harder.
Sludge Bomb handles opposing (and Slower under Sun) Tangrowth, Jaroda, Exeggutor, etc. and hits many things neutral.
Weather Ball [Fire] hits at 150 Base Power with Sun, and hits Skarmary, Forretress, Scizor, Jirachi, Metagross much harder than Venasaur's Hidden Power Fire, because 150 x = 300, VS 105 x 2 = 210, and relies less on Growth for power as with higher Base Speed, it can invest directly into other stats.
VictoryBell @ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SpA
Timid
Growth
Weather Ball
Hidden Power [Ice] or [Ground]
Sludge Bomb
Victreebel @ Life Orb
252 Attack / 44 SpA / 212 Spe
Naive
Power Whip
Hidden Power Fire
Poison Jab / Return
Growth
In this set, Victreebel gets 1 Speed over the standard Victreebel and Venasaur set list in the OP, and has a stronger Power Whip than Venasaur coming off 309 Attack without a boosting Nature, while Venasaur sits at only a 289 Attack with a boosting Attack nature. Poison Jab hits Grass types and many foes neutrally like Flying types harder than Power Whip and a chance for status infliction.
My testing of 5th Gen has so far been solely with Sun, which has been very effective. I've been running a somewhat HO styled team, though not as extreme as say a 4th gen rain team would've been.
As a lead I would recommend not using Ninetales due to its frailty, and instead trying a Porygon2 antilead as I do. With Evo Stone this thing is insanely bulky, Magic Coat lets it reflect Taunts, SRs and other nasty things, T-Wave allows it to cripple any of the many people trying to sweep off the bat with say Blaziken or Urugamosu as well as hinder switchins. It also lures fighting moves, which I will explain later.
I have tried ScarfTales, and it doesn't work well unless you have immaculate prediction, so currently I run a NP set which can just about OHKO TTars with HP Fight if they switch-in to pursuit me to death.
My primary sweepers are Venusaur and Tangrowth. Both are mixed Growth users, as I have found it more useful than Sleep Powder on either. I use them over any other chlorophyll sweepers for one reason - their epic movepools and coverage, and their respective Special and Physical bulk. Essentially this allows me to have two incredibly powerful sweepers who can hit almost the entire meta for an OHKO when they have a Growth boost. My main issue has been bulky Dragons, to which end I have been using HP Ice on Tan, but in the light of Ech0ez's post I shall be testing Sludge Bomb on Venu instead. HP Fire's use allows me to kill Dittos far more easily as well. Furthermore, their bulk allows them to come in on a variety of hits relatively easily to threaten the OHKO and nab a Growth. And as well as this, the two can easily take out opposing weather users with Focus Blast, Power Whip, Leaf Storm etc, while using their bulk and/or resistances to switch in.
Supporting these two are Shandera and Infernape. I had tried both Urugamosu and Blaziken in their places, but neither seemed to work. Urugamosu simply wasn't as effective a sweeper as the Grass types since he started off slow and with such poor Def, and Blaziken had similar issues, minus the low Def. Infernape with Iron Fist provides a fast revenger with Mach Punch as well as great coverage for a late-game sweep with CC, Fire Punch and EQ. Shandera meanwhile is a Flash Fire Sub variant who can come in on Fire attacks aimed at my Grass types or Fighting attacks in general and proceed to Sub up and kill the switchin, in most cases. He is also very useful at killing Dittos transformed into my Chlorophyll sweepers.
I'd suggest you add into the Jumpluff section that it is very nearly outclassed by Erufuun even under Sun, so be sure to make use of fast Sleep Powders, Giga Drains and U-Turns to differentiate the two. Also, Shiftry now gets Nature Power, which transforms into EQ, making a physical or mixed set much more viable (and powerful).
As a lead I would recommend not using Ninetales due to its frailty, and instead trying a Porygon2 antilead as I do. With Evo Stone this thing is insanely bulky, Magic Coat lets it reflect Taunts, SRs and other nasty things, T-Wave allows it to cripple any of the many people trying to sweep off the bat with say Blaziken or Urugamosu as well as hinder switchins. It also lures fighting moves, which I will explain later.
I have tried ScarfTales, and it doesn't work well unless you have immaculate prediction, so currently I run a NP set which can just about OHKO TTars with HP Fight if they switch-in to pursuit me to death.
My primary sweepers are Venusaur and Tangrowth. Both are mixed Growth users, as I have found it more useful than Sleep Powder on either. I use them over any other chlorophyll sweepers for one reason - their epic movepools and coverage, and their respective Special and Physical bulk. Essentially this allows me to have two incredibly powerful sweepers who can hit almost the entire meta for an OHKO when they have a Growth boost. My main issue has been bulky Dragons, to which end I have been using HP Ice on Tan, but in the light of Ech0ez's post I shall be testing Sludge Bomb on Venu instead. HP Fire's use allows me to kill Dittos far more easily as well. Furthermore, their bulk allows them to come in on a variety of hits relatively easily to threaten the OHKO and nab a Growth. And as well as this, the two can easily take out opposing weather users with Focus Blast, Power Whip, Leaf Storm etc, while using their bulk and/or resistances to switch in.
Supporting these two are Shandera and Infernape. I had tried both Urugamosu and Blaziken in their places, but neither seemed to work. Urugamosu simply wasn't as effective a sweeper as the Grass types since he started off slow and with such poor Def, and Blaziken had similar issues, minus the low Def. Infernape with Iron Fist provides a fast revenger with Mach Punch as well as great coverage for a late-game sweep with CC, Fire Punch and EQ. Shandera meanwhile is a Flash Fire Sub variant who can come in on Fire attacks aimed at my Grass types or Fighting attacks in general and proceed to Sub up and kill the switchin, in most cases. He is also very useful at killing Dittos transformed into my Chlorophyll sweepers.
I'd suggest you add into the Jumpluff section that it is very nearly outclassed by Erufuun even under Sun, so be sure to make use of fast Sleep Powders, Giga Drains and U-Turns to differentiate the two. Also, Shiftry now gets Nature Power, which transforms into EQ, making a physical or mixed set much more viable (and powerful).
- I'll mention Cherrim and Shaymin-S, as potentially blasting an enemy with a 4-level difference in SpA is pretty appealing.
- Celebi literally does not gain anything from sunlight that it didn't already have. It does not get Synthesis, either.
- Special Victreebel will get a mention, but MixTreebel's lack of Earthquake is depressing; it prevents it from effectively dealing with Heatran and Empoleon, as well as steels in general should the weather become rain or sand.
U-Turn will definitely be emphasized on Jumpluff, and I'll add the bit about Shiftry's nature power.
I'll make a mention of it alongside Blaziken; the typing are exactly the same, so I'll just note Infernape's higher initial speed and priority Iron Fist Mach Punch, as well Nasty Plot as an option.
Why is everyone underestimating the eon? Leafeon worked better for me than venusaur though I really needed the physical defense. I guess it is up to what your team needs xD
Because unlike Leafeon, Venusaur isn't walled by every Steel type and their grandmothers. You know your sweeping movepool's bad when you use X-Scissor and Return for "coverage". Also unlike Leafeon, Venusaur has a great supporting move in Sleep Powder.
Well leafeon does get yawn xD. also my leafeon is faster and hits a bit harder even without coverage. My leafeon as I said before works much better than venusaur for my team.
I think it should at least be one the front page as an option.
I think it should at least be one the front page as an option.
Sun has always been my favorite weather! anyhow. Shiftry got some really cool buffs this gen on the physical side. Seed Bomb with Swords Dance or Growth really. Is quite good. he also gets a NAture Power earthquake and while Explosion is weakened this gen. after an SD it'll still do great damage.
Explosion is all Shiftry has really compared to the other Physical sunny day sweepers along with a Dark STAB so use Sucker Punch/Dark Pulse/Explosion to your advantage.
Explosion is all Shiftry has really compared to the other Physical sunny day sweepers along with a Dark STAB so use Sucker Punch/Dark Pulse/Explosion to your advantage.
I didn't say Leafeon was unusable, just that it's not a substitute for Venusaur. Leafeon's main problem is that when Heatran, Skarmory, Forretress, and friends come in, you pretty much have to give them a free turn to do whatever they want. It has to BP its Swords Dances as soon as one of them shows up and risk one of its teammates getting hit or just phazed.
Actually I just yawn them and it keeps the momentum in my hands. And if they kill leafeon or phaze her then the next pokemon sets up as they sleep or switch xD
A mixed Shiftry set could work wonders on a sun team. With growth doubling both of his attacking stats, he effectively has more than the boost of all three choice items, with the freedom to do whatever he wants.
Shiftry @ Life Orb
(Mild/Rash)//(Naughty/Lonely)
190 Special Attack / 66 Attack / 252 Speed
-Dark Pulse
-Growth
-Nature Power
-Hidden Power [Fire]
Dark Pulse is for STAB, good coverage, and occasional flinch rate. Growth is obvious. Nature Power works as Earthquake, so its general power, and coverage. Hidden power fire gets a boost from sunny day, and lets him hurt scizor among other things. He's better off with life orb, but the bulb and battery are usefull if you really dislike recoil. Preferable nature is mild to counterbalance his lower Sp. Atk. EVs maximize speed, and balance power. Nature Power is a 2HKO on max def/HP Blissey after growth (50.6% - 59.5%)
Shiftry @ Life Orb
(Mild/Rash)//(Naughty/Lonely)
190 Special Attack / 66 Attack / 252 Speed
-Dark Pulse
-Growth
-Nature Power
-Hidden Power [Fire]
Dark Pulse is for STAB, good coverage, and occasional flinch rate. Growth is obvious. Nature Power works as Earthquake, so its general power, and coverage. Hidden power fire gets a boost from sunny day, and lets him hurt scizor among other things. He's better off with life orb, but the bulb and battery are usefull if you really dislike recoil. Preferable nature is mild to counterbalance his lower Sp. Atk. EVs maximize speed, and balance power. Nature Power is a 2HKO on max def/HP Blissey after growth (50.6% - 59.5%)
Regarding Doredia, it has access to Butterfly Dance, and after one Butterfly Dance under sunlight with Chlorophyll, it hits 834 speed and 525 SpA with Modest and HP Rock, not counting LO. With Energy Ball, it can OHKO even Kyogre switching in, and we all know how bulky Ogre is..