Hidden Type

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

If you ban Steel Dragonite, I'm pretty sure people will start running Steel Salamence. It doesn't have Multiscale, but it does have a few advantages over Dragonite. Salamence is

1. A lot faster (100 vs 80 Speed) which makes it more difficult to revenge as Dragon Dance user
2. Higher Special Attack
3. Having Intimidate can force out pokes
4. Having Fire Blast, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Iron Tail, Hydro Pump, Crunch, Thunder Fang meaning it also has a wide coverage
5. Can Wish and Refresh

 

[NotSoClutch]

If you ban Steel Dragonite, I'm pretty sure people will start running Steel Salamence. It doesn't have Multiscale, but it does have a few advantages over Dragonite. Salamence is

1. A lot faster (100 vs 80 Speed) which makes it more difficult to revenge as Dragon Dance user
2. Higher Special Attack
3. Having Intimidate can force out pokes
4. Having Fire Blast, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Iron Tail, Hydro Pump, Crunch, Thunder Fang meaning it also has a wide coverage
5. Can Wish and Refresh

That's perfectly fine. While Salamence is really good in this metagame in it's own right, it's not nearly as good as Dragonite. Dragonite can essentially setup on anything if rocks aren't on the field. With the exception of Kyube (who relies on a roll to KO Dnite but not Mence), Dragonite has the ability to take any unboosted hit. Salamence on the other hand has to pick it's opponents wisely as many ice types have the ability to one shot it. Despite having a great special movepool, it's not really all that useful.

0 SpA Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 124-148 (32.2 - 38.4%) -- 1.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
and fire blast isn't really all that useful without the 4x super effective hits (still a really solid option, but doesn't land nearly as many OHKOs in this metagame).

If mence becomes as tough to deal with as Dragonite is now then it deserves a look as well, but I just don't see it being anything but a non mega alternative to mega Altaria ATM as it simply isn't on par with Dragonite.

 

[talkingtree]

Gonna make my first post on smogon and finally stop being a lurker to nominate my favorite poke in this meta so far:
Shedinja for B rank.
I know, I know, gimmicky, requires too much support, ur bad, yadda yadda. Just listen real quick.

Now that's out of the way, this mon is surprisingly good in this meta - countering grass manaphy and steel dragonite sets that don't carry fire punch, among many other things that just don't seem to carry the right coverage anymore. The set I've been using is:

Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Sneak
- X-Scissor
- Swords Dance
(No IV modifications because Dark is probably the best option)

Pros:
-Immune to all but Fire, Flying, Rock, and Fairy attacks
-Forces lots of switches, who are then crippled by Will-O-Wisp unless they're fire type
-Surprisingly strong after one or two SDs, allowing it to sweep late-game

Cons:
-1HP
-Needs an SD in order to do real damage
-Burn, toxic, and entry hazards kill it, so support is mandatory

The support needed isn't actually as much as you might think - I'm currently running flying excadrill as my spinner (who is admittedly not great, but does what he needs to most of the time) and I haven't run into many status users, since this is an offensively oriented meta.

B-rank might be a little ambitious but it's won me my last 4 matches because the opponent didn't prepare for it and thought either dark type or ghost type attacks would be super effective. If you can catch them trying to use a dark or ghost attack and get up one or two extra SDs, often it ends up being gg. And I'm currently 31st on the ladder so it's not like I'm just playing unranked people either.

Thoughts?

 

[tegrof19]

B rank might be pushing it, but it definitely deserves something like B-

I think steel is another good typing to add. It's still immune to fighting and ground, and in fact only retains the weaknesses of the ghost typing (dark and ghost) along with fire.

 

[Ghoul King]

One more thing....
I know I said something about it earlier, but nobody really seemed to pay attention.

Grass Florges. Great Win-Con Vs. Stall since it Cannot be afflicted with status due to Flower Veil. Also a hard counter to any Manaphy without Ice beam, as you can see here...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/hiddentype-217317961


Can even check Ice Beam Grass Manaphy with its great special bulk, Calm Mind, and Stab Giga Drain.. if it can come in before Manaphy has gotten off a Tail Glow.

As far as I'm aware the only set Manaphy runs is Scald/Energy Ball/Ice Beam/Tail Glow, so I don't think it's really meaningful to talk about "non-Ice Beam-carrying Manaphy". I've certainly never seen anything else.

Grass Florges is kind of interesting but it's doubly weak to Poison, and Steel is such a mediocre choice the enemy can basically safely assume that it's Grass. If you're looking for an unconventional Special wall that screws with Manaphy, I'd go looking at Steel Mantine.

And Stall can still kill it just fine.

+6 252 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 285-336 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

Meanwhile Seismic Toss is a 4HKO if you have maxed HP. (Well, 5HKO if you have Leftovers) You have to get to +6 before Chansey isn't a hard-stop to Florges, and how exactly did you get to +6? Of course, you can heal with Giga Drain, but that requires fairly sizable setup before it actually lets you bowl over Chansey.

Oh and Steel Unaware Clefable murders you.

So I'd like to make some nominations.

Mega Altaria S rank
Great bulk, unpredictability and the ability to run a plethora of sets. No Opportunity cost for Altaria except Mega Evolution, though it's arguably the best Mega Evolution in the tier

I'm still not seeing S rank. It's not unpredictable (It's a Dragon Dance sweeper, and if it's not than it's not anywhere as good), it's not so overwhelming that this is a quibble, its bulk is actually mediocre (It barely goes over 100 in non-HP defensive stats and has a mere 75 base HP), if it runs Roost it loses out on STAB and/or coverage, and there are things that hard-wall every set it could possibly run -it has literally nothing to meaningfully get past Flying Heatran, or anything with that typing. (Steel Talonflame is non-standard but viable, and can Burn non-Fire Mega Altaria or murder Fire Mega Altaria)

Similarly Water Hippowdon can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Earthquake will 2HKO and it can tank Mega Altaria's own hits, Physically Defensive Quagsire has nothing to fear unless it's a bizarre Hyper Voice set, it can't do anything to Steel Clefable if it isn't carrying Earthquake (And can be worn down if it isn't carrying Roost), and the list goes on.

That just doesn't sound like S-rank material to me. A+? Sure. S? Why? It doesn't "do one role extremely well" or "fill a variety of roles effectively"... it can certainly sweep a significant portion of the meta, which fits the description for A, but it just isn't "a cut above everything that isn't Dragonite or Manaphy".

No argument that it's probably the best Mega in the tier, though.

Bisharp for +A
Same thing as most metagames, it's extremely good. I can see it being S- rank but best placed in A+ rank. Can run a couple different types, mainly Flying & Ghost which enables it to cause 50/50s but that's not uncommon in this metagame

I've been consistently disappointed by Bisharp. So many things in the meta cover their weakness to Dark or their weakness to Steel or manage to resist both at the same time that its impressive damage output is just not as impressive. (For instance, its Iron Head is an easy OHKO against Mega Gardevoir in Standard, but not in Hidden Type: it's always a 2HKO, ensuring Mega Gardevoir can murder it with Hyper Voice or Will O Wisp it or throw out a Thunderbolt) In fact, I rarely see anything running Sucker Punch in Hidden Type because it's just too risky. It's 50/50s are also not very impressive because it's sufficiently fragile that even neutral hits can often 2HKO it or even OHKO it due to sudden STABs.

It's honestly so disappointing I'd put it somewhere down in B. A lot of the things it does in Standard, it just doesn't do in Hidden Type, and it doesn't really get anything out of Hidden Type of note.

Dragonite for Suspect test
You know why.

I agree with suspecting it. Dunno if it's banworthy, but it's really really really good.

Lopunny for A - A+
Lopunny can run Ghost and Electric and generally anything it wants stab on. Electric and ghost are probably the best, Electric lets you live Brave bird from Smogon bird and getting Stab Thunder punch. Ghost can be used to Counter Gengar and generally be able to switch in more as it's immune to Fighting. Being able to revenge kill Dragonite is also great Fake out + HJK.

Absolutely agree.

If you ban Steel Dragonite, I'm pretty sure people will start running Steel Salamence. It doesn't have Multiscale, but it does have a few advantages over Dragonite. Salamence is

1. A lot faster (100 vs 80 Speed) which makes it more difficult to revenge as Dragon Dance user
2. Higher Special Attack
3. Having Intimidate can force out pokes
4. Having Fire Blast, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Iron Tail, Hydro Pump, Crunch, Thunder Fang meaning it also has a wide coverage
5. Can Wish and Refresh

Not even slightly. Dragonite is amazing because Multiscale is amazing and the Steel typing goes so well with that. Even Stealth Rock is Leftovers offed in two turns, which means if Dragonite switches in, laughs at your Toxic, and then you have to switch, it keeps its Multiscale, which is not true in Standard.

Salamence gets nothing of the sort. Not that it's bad, mind, but no it's not some mini-Dragonite that will smoothly replace Dragonite as an S-Rank threat.

Gonna make my first post on smogon and finally stop being a lurker to nominate my favorite poke in this meta so far:
Shedinja for B rank.
I know, I know, gimmicky, requires too much support, ur bad, yadda yadda. Just listen real quick.

Now that's out of the way, this mon is surprisingly good in this meta - countering grass manaphy and steel dragonite sets that don't carry fire punch, among many other things that just don't seem to carry the right coverage anymore. The set I've been using is:

Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Sneak
- X-Scissor
- Swords Dance
(No IV modifications because Dark is probably the best option)

Pros:
-Immune to all but Fire, Flying, Rock, and Fairy attacks
-Forces lots of switches, who are then crippled by Will-O-Wisp unless they're fire type
-Surprisingly strong after one or two SDs, allowing it to sweep late-game

Cons:
-1HP
-Needs an SD in order to do real damage
-Burn, toxic, and entry hazards kill it, so support is mandatory

The support needed isn't actually as much as you might think - I'm currently running flying excadrill as my spinner (who is admittedly not great, but does what he needs to most of the time) and I haven't run into many status users, since this is an offensively oriented meta.

B-rank might be a little ambitious but it's won me my last 4 matches because the opponent didn't prepare for it and thought either dark type or ghost type attacks would be super effective. If you can catch them trying to use a dark or ghost attack and get up one or two extra SDs, often it ends up being gg. And I'm currently 31st on the ladder so it's not like I'm just playing unranked people either.

Thoughts?

I'm more of a fan of Steel for Toxic immunity, Sandstorm immunity (Nobody runs Hail), and protection from common Rock coverage.

On the other hand, Knock Off is everywhere and now Dark Death Diggersby is a thing, so either way.

Shedinja should probably be like B- or something though. It's not amazing, but it's actually a lot better than in Standard. Main flaw is that it's overly sensitive to forced-switching-with-hazards up, which means anything with such (Which is a lot of things) can unexpectedly get it KOed before you had any intention of fielding it.

 

[Red Cat]

I haven't had much of a chance to post on this thread the last few days, so I'll post some of my thoughts about the discussion that has been going on here.

First of all, I think it is pointless to argue whether something is B or B- rank when this meta is relatively undeveloped. I think it is more important to focus on what is actually good versus what is niche / gimmicky (like Serperior). Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I'd like to discuss some of the ranking changes proposed here.

Mega Altaria: I say keep it where it is. I've thought about it being an S rank threat, but there are several things holding it back. First is its lack of raw power. 110 attack backed by Pixilate is good, but it isn't extremely powerful like Mega Gardevoir for example. Second is its bulk. While Dragon / Fairy / Steel is a great defensive type, 75 / 110 / 105 defenses are not that great and Mega Altaria struggles to take strong neutral hits not to mention that it cannot take an Earthquake. Third is its lack of speed. Dragon Dance obviously helps fix this, but you still need to heavily invest in speed to outrun key threats even at +1 which means you cannot invest in its bulk. Dragonite can compensate for this because of Multiscale, but Altaria cannot. I think these flaws are enough to hold it back from being S rank.

Mantine: I think this is C material at best. This reminds me a lot of the Mantine hype in OU for a little while before people realized it sucks. Yes, it is the only Water / Flying / Steel type with Defog, Scald, and Water Absorb, but that is a really narrow niche. Mantine has some big flaws which make it definitely worse than an A- Pokemon and probably worse than B-. First, it has no reliable recovery which is bad for a defensive Pokemon. Second, its physical bulk is horrible with 65 / 70 physical defenses. Third, it has no offensive presence with only 80 special attack meaning it relies on Toxic (in a meta full of Steel and Poison types) and Scald to do any damage. One replay does not make Mantine a good Pokemon and while it may serve a specific niche on certain teams, it is not something that people should build their teams around.

Shedinja: I think this is also C at best. Hazards make it useless and burns instantly kill it since no one runs Fire Shedinja. Mold Breaker Pokemon like Excadrill and Mega Gyarados also get past it. It has a barren offensive movepool backed by only 90 attack. The only thing it has going for it in this meta over OU is that your opponent has to guess which attacks are super effective against Shedinja. I would call it more of a niche / gimmick Pokemon than something which is really good and thus the C rank.

Bisharp: I don't think it is A+. It doesn't really gain much from adding a third type; there are just more things that can stop it in this meta.

Dragonite: I'd be in favor of suspecting it. It's not Dragonite's raw power which makes it so great, it is its longevity with Multiscale and that great defensive typing which makes it very hard to prevent it from setting up and even harder to revenge kill. Almost every Pokemon which can be considered a counter can be defeated with the right coverage move. Roost means that wearing it down is not always an option.

 

[I like donkeys]

B rank might be pushing it, but it definitely deserves something like B-

I think steel is another good typing to add. It's still immune to fighting and ground, and in fact only retains the weaknesses of the ghost typing (dark and ghost) along with fire.

I'm thinking rock might be good as well to bluff a steel sheddy.

 

[canno]

I'm thinking rock might be good as well to bluff a steel sheddy.

Plus you get a very useful SpDef boost in sandstorm!

 

[I like donkeys]

Plus you get a very useful SpDef boost in sandstorm!

pretty sure steel gets the same boost as well :3 (correct me if im wrong)

Holy dayum steel sheddy would be OP in gen 5, only hit by fire moves lol

 

[Isa Simple]

Only rock gets a SpD boost in Sandstorm. Bring on Gen 5 Hidden Type! Honestly though hazards would still be a massive issue (but not t-spikes).

Mantine: I think this is C material at best. This reminds me a lot of the Mantine hype in OU for a little while before people realized it sucks. Yes, it is the only Water / Flying / Steel type with Defog, Scald, and Water Absorb, but that is a really narrow niche. Mantine has some big flaws which make it definitely worse than an A- Pokemon and probably worse than B-. First, it has no reliable recovery which is bad for a defensive Pokemon. Second, its physical bulk is horrible with 65 / 70 physical defenses. Third, it has no offensive presence with only 80 special attack meaning it relies on Toxic (in a meta full of Steel and Poison types) and Scald to do any damage. One replay does not make Mantine a good Pokemon and while it may serve a specific niche on certain teams, it is not something that people should build their teams around.

Mantine should mainly be used on Stall or Semi Stall. (I've also used it on a Bulky Offense core with Clef as the two of them check most of the tiers top threats, freeing up space for the rest of the team). And if you are using Stall or Semi Stall in Hidden Type, you would be very unwise to not have a (or even 2) wish passer(s), as Wish passing is just so strong in this meta for scouting. First you would almost always have protect which is terrific for scouting, and then you have a heal after coming in, in case you mispredict and end up eating a strong neutral or super effective attack. So Mantine's lack of recovery (Bar Leftovers and Water Absorb) is far easier to deal with in the meta.

Its combination of Special bulk, fantastic resistances, and nice immunities is undeniably useful and allows Mantine to check a plethora of special attacker, not just Manaphy. Scald is an outstanding attack and very few pokemon don't care about either Burn or Toxic. As a result of this, (although slowly) Mantine will still wear down the things it checks faster than they will it. Or it can status them then switch to one of its 5 teammates.

Its poor physical bulk is far less of an issue when the threat of Scald makes it extremely dangerous for physical attackers to come in. Also Steel, Flying and Water are all good physically defensive typings allowing you to resist a lot of common physical moves, and hence take on a few weaker physical attackers. And again being Stall or Semi Stall, you will likely have multiple physical walls anyway.

Hazard removal is extremely important in this meta for scouting for types, and even more so for Stall as with hazards up 3HKOs become possible 2HKOs, and Mantine is a very reliable and consistant Defog user. Now being neutral to SR, and retaining its immunity to Spikes and T-Spikes (T-spikes even when Gravity is active), Mantine can easily come in on hazards. It has very few troubles switching in on special attackers or walls thanks to its SpD and immunity to Toxic and Scald Burns, even weak physical attackers with resisted STABs can be come in on and threatened with Scald, allowing for plenty of easy or free Defogs.

Obviously your not going to make a team around Mantine because it isn't a win condition, its a support and glue pokemon.
The reason I put a replay was just because I realise that Mantine is never seen in standard OU so I should give people an idea of how it works and what its role is. If you want more than one replay I could post them but my plan wasn't to flood the thread with replays, just to let people understand.
Do not underestimate Mantine in this meta as it is by no means a 'niche' pokemon.


Other things being discussed:
Altaria: Its likely the best mega, possibly the best A+ pokemon even, but its just too much of a cut bellow the other S rank mons to be in S. That said though, if Dragonite does get suspected or banned, I would feel uncomfortable with Grass Manaphy being the only S rank pokemon, and Mega Altaria seems the only candidate to keep Manaphy company if Dragonite does leave. Which brings me to my next point.

Dragonite Suspect: I can see why dragonite would be a possible suspect. Personally I haven't had any problems because my Stall team has at least two checks to all its possible sets, but it is this same reason I think it should probably be suspected as it is very centralising. Every team would be stupid not to have a least one dedicated check to this thing and even then, if it runs some unique coverage move or what not you are likely screwed. I can agree that it may be worth suspecting but there are still a fair few checks (almost no counters) and there may be more discovered in time. I say we give the meta a bit more time to adapt first.

Shedinja's placement: I can easily see it being ranked as it is much harder to take down now that you must first expose its weaknesses before you can exploit them, which isn't always easy when threatened with Burn and SD. Still really hazard weak but there are enough viable options of removal and prevention these days to make Shedinja usable. Not to mention is is actually one of the best counters to Dragonite (Dragonite can still beat it with certain coverage but it isn't its most common coverage and Sheddy will likely have Focus Sash to make that mistake once). I'm thinking maybe B-.

 

[Jack Dalton]

I haven't had much of a chance to post on this thread the last few days, so I'll post some of my thoughts about the discussion that has been going on here.

First of all, I think it is pointless to argue whether something is B or B- rank when this meta is relatively undeveloped. I think it is more important to focus on what is actually good versus what is niche / gimmicky (like Serperior). Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I'd like to discuss some of the ranking changes proposed here.

Mega Altaria: I say keep it where it is. I've thought about it being an S rank threat, but there are several things holding it back. First is its lack of raw power. 110 attack backed by Pixilate is good, but it isn't extremely powerful like Mega Gardevoir for example. Second is its bulk. While Dragon / Fairy / Steel is a great defensive type, 75 / 110 / 105 defenses are not that great and Mega Altaria struggles to take strong neutral hits not to mention that it cannot take an Earthquake. Third is its lack of speed. Dragon Dance obviously helps fix this, but you still need to heavily invest in speed to outrun key threats even at +1 which means you cannot invest in its bulk. Dragonite can compensate for this because of Multiscale, but Altaria cannot. I think these flaws are enough to hold it back from being S rank.

Mantine: I think this is C material at best. This reminds me a lot of the Mantine hype in OU for a little while before people realized it sucks. Yes, it is the only Water / Flying / Steel type with Defog, Scald, and Water Absorb, but that is a really narrow niche. Mantine has some big flaws which make it definitely worse than an A- Pokemon and probably worse than B-. First, it has no reliable recovery which is bad for a defensive Pokemon. Second, its physical bulk is horrible with 65 / 70 physical defenses. Third, it has no offensive presence with only 80 special attack meaning it relies on Toxic (in a meta full of Steel and Poison types) and Scald to do any damage. One replay does not make Mantine a good Pokemon and while it may serve a specific niche on certain teams, it is not something that people should build their teams around.

Shedinja: I think this is also C at best. Hazards make it useless and burns instantly kill it since no one runs Fire Shedinja. Mold Breaker Pokemon like Excadrill and Mega Gyarados also get past it. It has a barren offensive movepool backed by only 90 attack. The only thing it has going for it in this meta over OU is that your opponent has to guess which attacks are super effective against Shedinja. I would call it more of a niche / gimmick Pokemon than something which is really good and thus the C rank.

Bisharp: I don't think it is A+. It doesn't really gain much from adding a third type; there are just more things that can stop it in this meta.

Dragonite: I'd be in favor of suspecting it. It's not Dragonite's raw power which makes it so great, it is its longevity with Multiscale and that great defensive typing which makes it very hard to prevent it from setting up and even harder to revenge kill. Almost every Pokemon which can be considered a counter can be defeated with the right coverage move. Roost means that wearing it down is not always an option.

I agree with pretty much everything here. Mantine is outclassed by AV Steel Tornadus-Therian as a special wall, who has recovery in the form of Regenerator, and does a pretty good job at countering Grass Manaphy and checking threats to stall like Fighting Crawdaunt. I recommend anyone who wants a good stall core to check out some of word's posts earlier in the thread where he shows off Water Hippo/Steel Tornadus-T. The only thing that can really crack that core is Thundurus with Grass Knot.

Shedinja is bad. It is a gimmick in which you force your opponent to play "guess the type", and the consequences for guessing wrong are either a burn or a weak X-Scissor. Both of which are hardly consequences when offensive Pokemon are adding Fire typing to be immune to the former, and stall teams really don't care about a +2 Shadow Claw from a mediocre attack stat.

Gonna post some more this weekend, but right now it's 3 AM and I have work in a little bit.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I find Dragonite being so difficult to check, it's not OHKO by anything I believe. That's insane. It means that Dragonite can basically get to +1 +1 every single time, then it can fire of booste Outrages, Dragon claws, Iron Head, Earthquakes, Thunder punches and more. It's also so powerful, even though all of my coverage was unresisted Dragonite was Bulky enough to set up to +3 +3 and then actually do some damage, it's insane.

Honestly, Shedinja is something you can now use on any team and it works with almost every type, it depends on your team entirely.

How on Earth does Mantine check Crawdaunt? Hoping for a burn?
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 382-452 (114.3 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Florges is bad, please don't use it. It struggles against a steel infested Metagame and all the problems it sees in OU it now sees in Hidden type

Altarias ability to run so many different sets is so nice. There's the two DD sets, Fire blast DD and Steel DDD. There's Three attacks roost, though this set is lacking. However, Altaria does suffer from Heatran being a full on counter to every one of it's sets. I'd be fine with putting it in S- rank for now. Also why is Manaphy S rank when I haven't seen it in days? It destroys stall, yes, but it struggles against offense and often finds itself being out speed and revenge killed. I'd say put it in A+ but I'd like to hear someone who has used it extensively to present it.

 

[NotSoClutch]

I agree with pretty much everything here. Mantine is outclassed by AV Steel Tornadus-Therian as a special wall, who has recovery in the form of Regenerator, and does a pretty good job at countering Grass Manaphy and checking threats to stall like Fighting Crawdaunt. I recommend anyone who wants a good stall core to check out some of word's posts earlier in the thread where he shows off Water Hippo/Steel Tornadus-T. The only thing that can really crack that core is Thundurus with Grass Knot.

Shedinja is bad. It is a gimmick in which you force your opponent to play "guess the type", and the consequences for guessing wrong are either a burn or a weak X-Scissor. Both of which are hardly consequences when offensive Pokemon are adding Fire typing to be immune to the former, and stall teams really don't care about a +2 Shadow Claw from a mediocre attack stat.

Gonna post some more this weekend, but right now it's 3 AM and I have work in a little bit.

Shedninja isn't there to be a stall breaker necessarily, Shed is there to wall very particular Pokemon. While the opponent plays the guessing game, you as the shed owner are not playing the guessing game. Misplays can only be committed by the opponent guessing incorrectly however you as the shed owner only need to know what you can and can't wall with your type. The reason it's less of a gimmick in hidden type is the added benefit of the extra typing adding a little mystery to it and the lack of hazard stacking currently found in the metagame. Steel typing also allows it to take sandstorm and toxic damage to better help shed do it's job. Shedninja is still very matchup reliant, but it can preform its role on a much more consistent basis than it ever did in the standard metagames. I'd also like to add that most offensive Pokemon are not adding fire type and even if they were it can be countered with the right hidden power type. I honestly like to think of shed as offense's wall.

 

[Isa Simple]

I find Dragonite being so difficult to check, it's not OHKO by anything I believe. That's insane. It means that Dragonite can basically get to +1 +1 every single time, then it can fire of booste Outrages, Dragon claws, Iron Head, Earthquakes, Thunder punches and more. It's also so powerful, even though all of my coverage was unresisted Dragonite was Bulky enough to set up to +3 +3 and then actually do some damage, it's insane.

Honestly, Shedinja is something you can now use on any team and it works with almost every type, it depends on your team entirely.

How on Earth does Mantine check Crawdaunt? Hoping for a burn?
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 382-452 (114.3 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Florges is bad, please don't use it. It struggles against a steel infested Metagame and all the problems it sees in OU it now sees in Hidden type

Altarias ability to run so many different sets is so nice. There's the two DD sets, Fire blast DD and Steel DDD. There's Three attacks roost, though this set is lacking. However, Altaria does suffer from Heatran being a full on counter to every one of it's sets. I'd be fine with putting it in S- rank for now. Also why is Manaphy S rank when I haven't seen it in days? It destroys stall, yes, but it struggles against offense and often finds itself being out speed and revenge killed. I'd say put it in A+ but I'd like to hear someone who has used it extensively to present it.

Wait? Who is trying to check Crawdaunt with Mantine? Where is this coming from? What is happening?

All of Mega Altaria's sets other than Dragon Dance are kinda meh in this meta and usually underwhelming. Having an S- rank is unnecessary. Malt is fine in A+.

I think the main reason Manaphy is S is that 90% of its checks don't want to switch into a Scald, as they are worn down or crippled by burn. It has that ability to pseudo handle its checks largely by itself kinda like SubCM Keldeo.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Wait? Who is trying to check Crawdaunt with Mantine? Where is this coming from? What is happening?

All of Mega Altaria's sets other than Dragon Dance are kinda meh in this meta and usually underwhelming. Having an S- rank is unnecessary. Malt is fine in A+.

I think the main reason Manaphy is S is that 90% of its checks don't want to switch into a Scald, as they are worn down or crippled by burn. It has that ability to pseudo handle its checks largely by itself kinda like SubCM Keldeo.

It's easy to revenge kill though... I just don't see it, if the meta was more stall based yes. but for now its all HO

 

[Ghoul King]

Shedinja: I think this is also C at best. Hazards make it useless and burns instantly kill it since no one runs Fire Shedinja. Mold Breaker Pokemon like Excadrill and Mega Gyarados also get past it. It has a barren offensive movepool backed by only 90 attack. The only thing it has going for it in this meta over OU is that your opponent has to guess which attacks are super effective against Shedinja. I would call it more of a niche / gimmick Pokemon than something which is really good and thus the C rank.

Nobody runs Mega Gyarados.

Flying Excadrill does get run, but Excadrill is in general just not as notable as it is in Standard.

The only other Mold Breaker that I've ever seen run with Mold Breaker (Pangoro gets run with Scrappy) is Hawlucha, which still struggles in Hidden Type, even with being able to potentially take on/out Talonflame, and Unburden still seems to be the preference.

Every other Mold Breaker is depressing and unlikely to be run.

Mold Breaker is very nearly irrelevant to Shedinja's viability in Hidden Type.

Going over the descriptions for ranks, C probably is more accurate though. It has a niche, it's better than in OU, but it's not a semi-standard pick or anything,

Altaria: Its likely the best mega, possibly the best A+ pokemon even, but its just too much of a cut bellow the other S rank mons to be in S. That said though, if Dragonite does get suspected or banned, I would feel uncomfortable with Grass Manaphy being the only S rank pokemon, and Mega Altaria seems the only candidate to keep Manaphy company if Dragonite does leave. Which brings me to my next point.

That's not how ranks work. The only way Dragonite being banned would cause Mega Altaria to jump up to S is if Dragonite's presence was directly impacting Mega Altaria's utility in a negative way, preferably in the form of Dragonite killing or walling it. (Which it does, but only after it sets up, and that cuts both ways -neither of them can switch in on the other)

Dragonite Suspect: I can see why dragonite would be a possible suspect. Personally I haven't had any problems because my Stall team has at least two checks to all its possible sets, but it is this same reason I think it should probably be suspected as it is very centralising. Every team would be stupid not to have a least one dedicated check to this thing and even then, if it runs some unique coverage move or what not you are likely screwed. I can agree that it may be worth suspecting but there are still a fair few checks (almost no counters) and there may be more discovered in time. I say we give the meta a bit more time to adapt first.

The main reason I'm not arguing super hard for a suspect myself is that tons of viable things happen to check Dragonite -people don't actually bring specialized counters or checks, they just build a solid team and a couple of Pokemon are conveniently acceptable at the job.

If it were causing people to routinely run low-viability things because only these low-viability things checked or countered Dragonite, that would be blatantly over-centralizing, but as-is it's ambiguous. It's incredibly good but it's fightable with tools people carry anyway because they're good.

Though I doubt a counter will ever be found. More checks is a maybe, but I'm skeptical.

I agree with pretty much everything here. Mantine is outclassed by AV Steel Tornadus-Therian as a special wall, who has recovery in the form of Regenerator, and does a pretty good job at countering Grass Manaphy and checking threats to stall like Fighting Crawdaunt. I recommend anyone who wants a good stall core to check out some of word's posts earlier in the thread where he shows off Water Hippo/Steel Tornadus-T. The only thing that can really crack that core is Thundurus with Grass Knot.

252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 222-262 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA (Electric) Mega Gardevoir Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 218-260 (60.2 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you say so.

Tornadus-Therian doesn't threaten to Burn things, and with an Assault Vest it can't toss out Toxic. It also can't clear hazards if it's carrying an Assault Vest nor drop a Haze (period) on Calm Mind Clefable. They fill completely different roles. (Except that they both check Manaphy, which Mantine is 100% superior at, being completely unafraid of Burns)

I find Dragonite being so difficult to check, it's not OHKO by anything I believe. That's insane. It means that Dragonite can basically get to +1 +1 every single time, then it can fire of booste Outrages, Dragon claws, Iron Head, Earthquakes, Thunder punches and more. It's also so powerful, even though all of my coverage was unresisted Dragonite was Bulky enough to set up to +3 +3 and then actually do some damage, it's insane.

... you don't generally check things by OHKOing them. If you can OHKO them, odds are good you're a counter.

Altarias ability to run so many different sets is so nice. There's the two DD sets, Fire blast DD and Steel DDD. There's Three attacks roost, though this set is lacking. However, Altaria does suffer from Heatran being a full on counter to every one of it's sets. I'd be fine with putting it in S- rank for now. Also why is Manaphy S rank when I haven't seen it in days? It destroys stall, yes, but it struggles against offense and often finds itself being out speed and revenge killed. I'd say put it in A+ but I'd like to hear someone who has used it extensively to present it.

Mega Altaria has one thing it does that any variation is variation on a theme. It's highly predictable, quite fragile even with max HP investment (Which compromises your ability to sweep with Dragon Dance), and consistently walled by multiple Pokemon. It also can't deal with Hippowdon unless, again, it's a bizarre Special attacker set with Hyper Voice and/or Dragon Pulse, in which case it's vastly less threatening as a whole. Same applies to Quagsire. And so on. Mega Altaria is very good, able to sweep an entire team once its checks/counters are gone, but there are multiple checks/counters that it either cannot touch at all or where enabling it to take them down automatically lowers its threat rating. That's not S-rank material.

Manaphy is S-Rank because it can come in on something it's not scared of, and then either setup and sweep or punish the switch-in, potentially with a Burn off Scald. If you're immune to Burn, it's probably because you're a Fire type, in which case you're probably not resistant to Scald and will hate being hit with it. In fact, one of the best revenge killers to Grass Manaphy -Talonflame- is very problematic to try to switch in on it, especially if it's the default Ground type, which is doubly weak to Water.

In general Hidden Type runs a bit slower than Standard because a lot of the usual fast threats are just a lot less impressive (Keldeo suffers, I have never seen Terrakion, Garchomp is largely invalidated by Steel Dragonite, etc etc), and so Manaphy's mere 100 Speed actually keeps it ahead of tons of threats in the meta. Meanwhile it can switch in on, for instance, Ground Gyarados with impunity and either setup or, again, punish a switch-in. Revenging it is also difficult because it's not like it's vulnerable to Pursuit -if it decides to leave and in comes its buddy, Walls Your Revenger, then that's that. What exactly can revenge against Manaphy and punish a switch reliably? (Other than maybe Talonflame) In particular, it loses its Grass and most importantly Electric weaknesses -in Standard there's plenty of speedy Electric types to come in, outspeed, and OHKO with a STAB move. That doesn't apply here.

 

[Enigami]

With all the talk about Shedinja, I decided to dig into everything about it to see all it could do. I put this post together to share everything I found. It'll probably only be useful to newcomers to Hidden Type, but I had fun making it anyway.


Hidden Type Shedinja for Dummies

In normal play, Shedinja is brought down by its predictability and typing. In Hidden Type its top 3 new typings give it the potential to be immune to any attacking type in the game, requiring the enemy to learn its weaknesses through trial and error. This makes it an extremely versatile defensive pivot, and can even sweep teams if they lack a way to harm that specific Shedinja.

Even here it faces issues though. Hazards are still the bane of its existance, and Will-O-Wisp can threaten to KO all but the niche Fire Shedinja. With hazard clearing support it can make up for its negatives, and is a worthwhile Pokemon in this meta.

Below I've put together all the typings, usable items and viable moves. They are generally listed from best to worst, starting from the top.

TODO: Add what major threats are walled by each type (need to wait for the viability thread to update).

FAQ

Q: Why does it say Swords Dance/Agility/Swords Dance is not compatible?
A: Shedinja learns those moves from evolving a Gen III/IV Nincada at a specific level. At level 25 it gets Swords Dance, 38 it gets Agility, and 45 it gets Baton Pass. Since Nincada can only evolve once, Shedinja can only know one of those moves.

Q: Does Wonder Guard protect against Stealth Rock if Shedinja isn't weak to Rock?
A: It does not, unfortunately. If it did, Ground/Fighting/Steel Shedinja with Air Balloon would've allowed for a hazard proof Shedinja.

Q: Can Shedinja use Substitute?
A: No, it will fail since Shedinja can't split 1 HP. It can recieve it from another Pokemon though.

Viable Typings

- With immunity to most damage sources including sand and toxic, this is probably the best and easiest Hidden Type to use for Shedinja.
Weaknesses: Fire, Ghost, Dark, Will-O-Wisp, Leech Seed, Hazards

- The only typing with Ghost and Dark immunity, and it has only 4 attacking types to worry about. It needs Safety Goggles to survive sand though.
Weaknesses: Flying, Fire, Rock, Fairy, Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Leech Seed, Sand, Hazards

Niche Typings

These are mostly outclassed by other mons or typings, but might find use on certain teams.

- Rock can completely throw off opponents expecting to burn or Bird Spam their way through Shedinja. Especially if your team is weak to Talonflame or Mega Altaria, this typing will rock your world be quite useful. Its also sand immune.
Weaknesses: Water, Steel, Rock, Ghost, Dark, Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Leech Seed, Hazards

- Exchanges Electric for Fire immunity. This can wall powerful sweepers that may carry fire coverage such as Mega Altaria while still walling Manaphy.
Weaknesses: Flying, Electric, Rock, Ghost, Dark, Toxic, Leech Seed, Sand, Hazards

- Mostly outclassed by Dark, which does not have Fighting's Psychic/Ghost weaknesses. Its combined Rock/Dark immunity is the only reason to use it.
Weaknesses: Flying, Fire, Psychic, Ghost, Fairy, Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Leech Seed, Sand, Hazards

- Exchanges Water for Fire+Will-O-Wisp immunities. Heatran is a more useful firewall, so unless Heatran doesn't fit on your team, its best to use a better typing.
Weaknesses: Flying, Water, Rock, Ghost, Dark, Toxic, Leech Seed, Sand, Hazards

Bad Typings

Other typings are much more useful than these or outclass these entirely.

- It gains spore+leech seed immunity in exchange for an Ice weakness. Extremely niche. Shedinja has better typings to abuse.

- Adding Dragon/Ice/Fairy weakness is not helpful to it at all.

- Outclassed by Everything with Air Balloon: Flying adds Electric and Ice weaknesses and only provides spikes immunity, if you really need that just add an Air Balloon to a better typed Shedinja.

- Outclassed by Steel: Steel covers everything it does and more.

- Outclassed by Steel: See above.

- Outclassed by Steel: See above.

- Outclassed by Steel: See above, except it blocks Paralysis, which Shedinja wants.

- Outclassed by Steel: See above, except it blocks Paralysis, which Shedinja wants.

- Outclassed by Everything: Ice only provides new weaknesses.

- Outclassed by Everything: Psychic only provides new weaknesses.

Usable Items

Focus Sash - Shedinja's best item. It extends Shedinja's life by letting it survive a hit.

Lum Berry - Provides one-time immunity to status, allowing Shedinja to survive an unexpected Will-O-Wisp/Toxic. Rawst Berry (

) can be used on Steel Shedinja and Pecha Berry (

) can be used on Fire Shedinja to allow them to still be paralyzed.

Safety Goggles - For non Steel/Rock Shedinja, it provides immunity to sand. It also provides protection from powder moves, so it can safely switch into Spore as well.

Choice Band - You can use the band for immediate power or cripple a wall or special attacker switching in with Trick. Other trick items, such as Choice Specs, Choice Scarf or Iron Ball can also be used.

Spooky Plate /

Insect Plate /

Dread Plate - These can also raise Shedinja's power without choice-locking it. Dread Plate should only be used on Dark Shedinja. SilverPowder, Spell Tag, and Black Glasses are equivalents.

Air Balloon - The least useful usable item for Shedinja. Provides immunity to spikes. Stealth Rocks are far more common, so it'll rarely be worthwile.

Viable Moves

Shadow Claw - Main STAB.
X-Scissor - STAB, but commonly resisted in Hidden Type.
Will-O-Wisp - Spreads Burn.
Protect - Scouts for SE moves and Toxic/Will-O-Wisp, extending Shedinja's life.
Swords Dance - Raises Shedinja's attack to threatening levels. Incompatible with Baton Pass.
Shadow Sneak - Priority STAB.
Baton Pass - Grabs momentum when the opponent switches out. Incompatible with Swords Dance.
Baton Pass + Hone Claws - Can slowly raise Shedinja's attack or pass the attack + accuracy boost to another Pokemon.
Night Slash - STAB for Dark Shedinja, an alternative to Shadow Claw to hit Normal/Ghost Pokemon.
Sucker Punch - Powerful priority STAB for Dark Shedinja.
Phantom Force - STAB stalling move to rack up burn/poison damage.
Toxic - Spreads Poison, however many of Hidden Type's biggest threats are immune to it.
Trick - Can cripple the target or a switch-in with a hindering item.

 

[Isa Simple]

252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 222-262 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA (Electric) Mega Gardevoir Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 218-260 (60.2 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you say so.

However this is true that it can break the core, and that is very impressive, it is worth noting that
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir (electric): 324-384 (116.9 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But that said Hippo still can't switch into hyper voice, but it can come in on Thunderbolts aimed at Torn-T or revenge.

 

[DarkeKnight]

Just a quick analysis of viable haze users. Do with it what you will.

Steel Articuno:
Weaknesses: Fighting, Rock, Electric, Fire (4)
Neutralities: Steel, Dark, Ghost, Water (4)
Resistances: Normal, Flying, Fairy, Ice, Psychic, Dragon, Bug, Grass (8)
Immunities: Ground, Poison (2)
Pros:
Has good bulk. 90/100/125
Decent speed(85) and Sp. Atk(95).
Gets Haze, Roost, Defog, Heal Bell, Toxic, U-Turn and even Freeze Dry.
Cons:
Doesn't get Will-O-Wisp, Scald or any way of spreading burns.
Weak to four very common attacking types. And the 4x Fire weakness is terrible.

Steel Mantine:
Weaknesses: Electric (1)
Neutralities: Fighting, Fire, Rock, Dark, Ghost (5)
Resistances: Normal, Flying, Fairy, Ice, Steel, Grass, Bug, Psychic, Dragon (9)
Immunities: Ground, Poison, Water (3)
Pros:
140 base Sp.Def.
It gets Scald/Defog/Haze/Toxic/Confuse Ray and Mirror Coat.
Only 1 weakness.
Water
Cons:
No reliable recovery.
65/70 HP/Def is bad.
Electric weakness is terrible.

Steel Milotic:
Weaknesses: Electric, Fighting, Ground (3)
Neutralities: Fire, Grass, Dark, Ghost (4)
Resistances: Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel, Water (10)
Immunities: Poison (1)
Pros:
More HP and defence than Mantine at the cost of a little Sp. Def. 95/79/125
Recover/Haze/Scald/Mirror Coat/Magic Coat/Rest/Sleep Talk/Toxic
Can utilize Rest+Sleep Talk to take advantage of its ability. (Marvel Scale: If this Pokemon is statused, its Defense is 1.5x.)
No 4x weakness.
Cons:
3 weaknesses and only 1 immunity
Cannot clean hazards

Steel Vaporeon:
Weaknesses: Electric, Fighting, Ground (3)
Neutralities: Fire, Grass, Dark, Ghost (4)
Resistances: Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel, Water (10)
Immunities: Poison (1)
Pros:130/60/110 makes it the best special wall, looking at stats alone.
Haze/Acid Armour/Scald/Wish/Protect/Refresh/Toxic
Can use the annoying combination of Toxic/Wish/Protect.
Cons:Cannot clean hazards.Same typing issues as Milotic.
Toxic/Wish/Protect isn't that great due to all the steel types in the tier.

Steel Tentacruel:
Weaknesses: Electric, Ground (2)
Neutralities: Fighting, Fire, Dark, Psychic, Ghost (5)
Resistances: Bug, Fairy, Ice, Steel, Water, Normal, Flying, Grass, Rock, Dragon (10)
Immunities: Poison (1)
Pros:
80/65/120
Only two weaknesses.
Gets Rapid Spin, Acid Spray, Haze, Knock Off, Mirror Coat, Magic Coat, Scald, Toxic and Toxic Spikes
Base 100 speed is pretty surprising. Too bad it doesn't get Taunt.
Cons:
Terrible 4x ground weakness
No recovery

Steel Quagsire:
Weaknesses: Grass, Fighting, Ground
Neutrality: Fire, Water, Dark, Ghost
Resistances: Rock, Steel, Normal, Flying, Fairy, Ice, Bug, Psychic, Dragon
Immunities: Electric, Poison (Water also if for some reason you decide to run Water Absorb instead of Unaware)
Pros:
95/85/65
Very good ability in Unaware.
Haze/Acid Spray/Amnesia/Recover/Scald/Toxic/Earthquake
Cons:
It's a defensive wall not a special wall so pretty much any special attacker can kill it.

 

[Isa Simple]

Just a quick analysis of viable haze users. Do with it what you will.

Steel Articuno:
Weaknesses: Fighting, Rock, Electric, Fire (4)
Neutralities: Steel, Dark, Ghost, Water (4)
Resistances: Normal, Flying, Fairy, Ice, Psychic, Dragon, Bug, Grass (8)
Immunities: Ground, Poison (2)
Pros:
Has good bulk. 90/100/125
Decent speed(85) and Sp. Atk(95).
Gets Haze, Roost, Defog, Heal Bell, Toxic, U-Turn and even Freeze Dry.
Cons:
Doesn't get Will-O-Wisp, Scald or any way of spreading burns.
Weak to four very common attacking types. And the 4x Fire weakness is terrible.

Steel Mantine:
Weaknesses: Electric (1)
Neutralities: Fighting, Fire, Rock, Dark, Ghost (5)
Resistances: Normal, Flying, Fairy, Ice, Steel, Grass, Bug, Psychic, Dragon (9)
Immunities: Ground, Poison, Water (3)
Pros:
140 base Sp.Def.
It gets Scald/Defog/Haze/Toxic/Confuse Ray and Mirror Coat.
Only 1 weakness.
Water
Cons:
No reliable recovery.
65/70 HP/Def is bad.
Electric weakness is terrible.

Steel Milotic:
Weaknesses: Electric, Fighting, Ground (3)
Neutralities: Fire, Grass, Dark, Ghost (4)
Resistances: Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel, Water (10)
Immunities: Poison (1)
Pros:
More HP and defence than Mantine at the cost of a little Sp. Def. 95/79/125
Recover/Haze/Scald/Mirror Coat/Magic Coat/Rest/Sleep Talk/Toxic
Can utilize Rest+Sleep Talk to take advantage of its ability. (Marvel Scale: If this Pokemon is statused, its Defense is 1.5x.)
No 4x weakness.
Cons:
3 weaknesses and only 1 immunity
Cannot clean hazards

Steel Vaporeon:
Weaknesses: Electric, Fighting, Ground (3)
Neutralities: Fire, Grass, Dark, Ghost (4)
Resistances: Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel, Water (10)
Immunities: Poison (1)
Pros:130/60/110 makes it the best special wall, looking at stats alone.
Haze/Acid Armour/Scald/Wish/Protect/Refresh/Toxic
Can use the annoying combination of Toxic/Wish/Protect.
Cons:Cannot clean hazards.Same typing issues as Milotic.
Toxic/Wish/Protect isn't that great due to all the steel types in the tier.

Steel Tentacruel:
Weaknesses: Electric, Ground (2)
Neutralities: Fighting, Fire, Dark, Psychic, Ghost (5)
Resistances: Bug, Fairy, Ice, Steel, Water, Normal, Flying, Grass, Rock, Dragon (10)
Immunities: Poison (1)
Pros:
80/65/120
Only two weaknesses.
Gets Rapid Spin, Acid Spray, Haze, Knock Off, Mirror Coat, Magic Coat, Scald, Toxic and Toxic Spikes
Base 100 speed is pretty surprising. Too bad it doesn't get Taunt.
Cons:
Terrible 4x ground weakness
No recovery

Steel Quagsire:
Weaknesses: Grass, Fighting, Ground
Neutrality: Fire, Water, Dark, Ghost
Resistances: Rock, Steel, Normal, Flying, Fairy, Ice, Bug, Psychic, Dragon
Immunities: Electric, Poison (Water also if for some reason you decide to run Water Absorb instead of Unaware)
Pros:
95/85/65
Very good ability in Unaware.
Haze/Acid Spray/Amnesia/Recover/Scald/Toxic/Earthquake
Cons:
It's a defensive wall not a special wall so pretty much any special attacker can kill it.

I feel like most of these Mono Waters in particular would be better off with Grass > Steel. Maybe Tentacruel too, and there are probably some advantages to Ground on Articuno. Quagsire is a really weird case in that I honestly think it would probably be better off without a typing, the only typing I can think of with clear positives that weigh out the negatives is Fairy, but there is no HP Fairy yet.


Anyway, I've been mucking around on random alts recently and have a few things that I'd like to share:

Steel Mega Abomasnow: I'll bet you never thought you'd see an Abomasnow with only 2 weaknesses. That said though they are really horrible weaknesses with 4x Fighting and 8x Fire, but you can usually see them coming and they can be covered reasonably easily.
But anyway, the reason I've been using Steel Mega Abomasnow is mainly as a strong Dragonite check. Mega Abomasnow can come in the turn Dragonite either sets up or attacks, as Fire Punch is the only move that can reliably 2HKO Abo at +0 or OHKO at +1, and isn't always run. The turn Abo comes in Hail breaks Multiscale, then Blizzard OHKOs next turn. Without half as many weaknesses Mega Abomasnow is actually a really strong bulky mixed attacker. It has strong priority in Ice Shard and Pseudo recovery in Giga Drain, as well as options like Earthquake, Brick Break and Focus Blast to get around steels. B- maybe.

Another pokemon I wanted to test was Steel Scyther:
I'm currently playing around with a bulky SD set with SpD investment and STAB Steel Wing, and have found it to be surprisingly versatile. Banded sets are also quite nice with 105 Spe being actually really good in this meta with STAB U-Turn, and bulky Defog is good with the added resistances and less SR weak.
With 70/80/80 Defenses + Eviolite and reliable recovery, Scyther gets plenty of set up opportunities and is quite strong at +2. I'd put it in C+.

Lastly the gimmicky Bronzong set I've been using was Fire Bronzong with Trick and Flame Orb, to lure things that like to set up on Bronzong like Dragonite. When pulled off it was extremely strong and often won me the games, but it is very inconsistant and unreliable, would not recommend.
I also tried Fire Jirachi for the same reason, as well as STAB Fire Punch. This was pretty much better in every way and actually quite decent, but the 4x Ground weakness is a real deal breaker.

 

[Isa Simple]

Just a quick analysis of viable haze users. Do with it what you will.

Steel Articuno:
Weaknesses: Fighting, Rock, Electric, Fire (4)
Neutralities: Steel, Dark, Ghost, Water (4)
Resistances: Normal, Flying, Fairy, Ice, Psychic, Dragon, Bug, Grass (8)
Immunities: Ground, Poison (2)
Pros:
Has good bulk. 90/100/125
Decent speed(85) and Sp. Atk(95).
Gets Haze, Roost, Defog, Heal Bell, Toxic, U-Turn and even Freeze Dry.
Cons:
Doesn't get Will-O-Wisp, Scald or any way of spreading burns.
Weak to four very common attacking types. And the 4x Fire weakness is terrible.

Steel Mantine:
Weaknesses: Electric (1)
Neutralities: Fighting, Fire, Rock, Dark, Ghost (5)
Resistances: Normal, Flying, Fairy, Ice, Steel, Grass, Bug, Psychic, Dragon (9)
Immunities: Ground, Poison, Water (3)
Pros:
140 base Sp.Def.
It gets Scald/Defog/Haze/Toxic/Confuse Ray and Mirror Coat.
Only 1 weakness.
Water
Cons:
No reliable recovery.
65/70 HP/Def is bad.
Electric weakness is terrible.

Steel Milotic:
Weaknesses: Electric, Fighting, Ground (3)
Neutralities: Fire, Grass, Dark, Ghost (4)
Resistances: Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel, Water (10)
Immunities: Poison (1)
Pros:
More HP and defence than Mantine at the cost of a little Sp. Def. 95/79/125
Recover/Haze/Scald/Mirror Coat/Magic Coat/Rest/Sleep Talk/Toxic
Can utilize Rest+Sleep Talk to take advantage of its ability. (Marvel Scale: If this Pokemon is statused, its Defense is 1.5x.)
No 4x weakness.
Cons:
3 weaknesses and only 1 immunity
Cannot clean hazards

Steel Vaporeon:
Weaknesses: Electric, Fighting, Ground (3)
Neutralities: Fire, Grass, Dark, Ghost (4)
Resistances: Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel, Water (10)
Immunities: Poison (1)
Pros:130/60/110 makes it the best special wall, looking at stats alone.
Haze/Acid Armour/Scald/Wish/Protect/Refresh/Toxic
Can use the annoying combination of Toxic/Wish/Protect.
Cons:Cannot clean hazards.Same typing issues as Milotic.
Toxic/Wish/Protect isn't that great due to all the steel types in the tier.

Steel Tentacruel:
Weaknesses: Electric, Ground (2)
Neutralities: Fighting, Fire, Dark, Psychic, Ghost (5)
Resistances: Bug, Fairy, Ice, Steel, Water, Normal, Flying, Grass, Rock, Dragon (10)
Immunities: Poison (1)
Pros:
80/65/120
Only two weaknesses.
Gets Rapid Spin, Acid Spray, Haze, Knock Off, Mirror Coat, Magic Coat, Scald, Toxic and Toxic Spikes
Base 100 speed is pretty surprising. Too bad it doesn't get Taunt.
Cons:
Terrible 4x ground weakness
No recovery

Steel Quagsire:
Weaknesses: Grass, Fighting, Ground
Neutrality: Fire, Water, Dark, Ghost
Resistances: Rock, Steel, Normal, Flying, Fairy, Ice, Bug, Psychic, Dragon
Immunities: Electric, Poison (Water also if for some reason you decide to run Water Absorb instead of Unaware)
Pros:
95/85/65
Very good ability in Unaware.
Haze/Acid Spray/Amnesia/Recover/Scald/Toxic/Earthquake
Cons:
It's a defensive wall not a special wall so pretty much any special attacker can kill it.

I feel like most of these Mono Waters in particular would be better off with Grass > Steel. Maybe Tentacruel too, and there are probably some advantages to Ground on Articuno. Quagsire is a really weird case in that I honestly think it would probably be better off without a typing, the only typing I can think of with clear positives that weigh out the negatives is Fairy, but there is no HP Fairy yet.


Anyway, I've been mucking around on random alts recently and have a few things that I'd like to share:

Steel Mega Abomasnow: I'll bet you never thought you'd see an Abomasnow with only 2 weaknesses. That said though they are really horrible weaknesses with 4x Fighting and 8x Fire, but you can usually see them coming and they can be covered reasonably easily.
But anyway, the reason I've been using Steel Mega Abomasnow is mainly as a strong Dragonite check. Mega Abomasnow can come in the turn Dragonite either sets up or attacks, as Fire Punch is the only move that can reliably 2HKO Abo at +0 or OHKO at +1, and isn't always run. The turn Abo comes in Hail breaks Multiscale, then Blizzard OHKOs next turn. Without half as many weaknesses Mega Abomasnow is actually a really strong bulky mixed attacker. It has strong priority in Ice Shard and Pseudo recovery in Giga Drain, as well as options like Earthquake, Brick Break and Focus Blast to get around steels. B- maybe.

Another pokemon I wanted to test was Steel Scyther:
I'm currently playing around with a bulky SD set with SpD investment and STAB Steel Wing, and have found it to be surprisingly versatile. Banded sets are also quite nice with 105 Spe being actually really good in this meta with STAB U-Turn, and bulky Defog is good with the added resistances and less SR weak.
With 70/80/80 Defenses + Eviolite and reliable recovery, Scyther gets plenty of set up opportunities and is quite strong at +2. I'd put it in C+.

Lastly the gimmicky Bronzong set I've been using was Fire Bronzong with Trick and Flame Orb, to lure things that like to set up on Bronzong like Dragonite. When pulled off it was extremely strong and often won me the games, but it is very inconsistant and unreliable, would not recommend.
I also tried Fire Jirachi for the same reason, as well as STAB Fire Punch. This was pretty much better in every way and actually quite decent, but the 4x Ground weakness is a real deal breaker.

 

[DarkeKnight]

Steel Mega Abomasnow: I'll bet you never thought you'd see an Abomasnow with only 2 weaknesses. That said though they are really horrible weaknesses with 4x Fighting and 8x Fire, but you can usually see them coming and they can be covered reasonably easily.
But anyway, the reason I've been using Steel Mega Abomasnow is mainly as a strong Dragonite check. Mega Abomasnow can come in the turn Dragonite either sets up or attacks, as Fire Punch is the only move that can reliably 2HKO Abo at +0 or OHKO at +1, and isn't always run. The turn Abo comes in Hail breaks Multiscale, then Blizzard OHKOs next turn. Without half as many weaknesses Mega Abomasnow is actually a really strong bulky mixed attacker. It has strong priority in Ice Shard and Pseudo recovery in Giga Drain, as well as options like Earthquake, Brick Break and Focus Blast to get around steels. B- maybe.

Um..no.

252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (8x Weak) Abomasnow: 640-760 (166.6 - 197.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But otherwise, yeah.

 

[Isa Simple]

Um..no.

252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (8x Weak) Abomasnow: 640-760 (166.6 - 197.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But otherwise, yeah.

I know its a OHKO, all fire moves are OHKOs when you are 8x weak. I was trying to say that none of Dragonite's moves can reliably 2HKO, accept Fire Punch, which is an obvious OHKO. I guess you're right that I could have worded it better, but its blatantly obvious when its 8x weak.
Btw I run Protect to scout for Fire Punches and rack up Hail damage.

 

[The Immortal]

I don't think anyone has mentioned Trick Room in this thread. I lost to one on the ladder the other day. The added STAB for Trick Room sweepers makes their job much easier. Dark Rampardos with Sheer Force Crunch, for example.

 

[Isa Simple]

Trick Room does sound rather interesting.
The first thing bumping into my mind is new users of Hammer Arm as Fighting gets solid neutral coverage in this meta and the speed drop makes it extremely spammable in TR.

A couple things jumping to mind are:
Fighting Ursaring: Guts + 130 Atk with Normal / Fighting STAB with Shadow Claw to hit ghosts.
Fighting Golurk: Ghost / Fighting STAB with Iron Fist boosted Hammer Arm.

Rhyperior, Darmanitan and Metagross would also be quite scary with STAB Hammer Arm.

Then obviously there are the TR sweepers like Reuniclus, Mega Hera, Mega Camerupt, Mega Amphy and so on that would be devastating with an extra STAB option.
Definitely a potent play style.