Hydreigon Discussion: Viability in BW2



I think Hydreigon is viable, but you really know how to use it. with base speed of 98 you really have to have the choice scarf set (unless you want to out sped by a lot pokemon)
I love using him don't get me wrong but Latios or Latias is way better. But once again it is viable. Even with base 98 speed it special attack makes up for it with base 125 Special Attack.
This is really faulty logic. You don't put a Choice Scarf on slow things in order to make them fast, you put it on fast things in order to outspeed everything. Choice Scarf Hydreigon is horrible because, even when scarfed, it gets outsped by other scarfers that will ruin it's day (Terrakion, Keldeo, Salamence, Garchomp, Latios, etc.).

OT: Is Hydreigon viable? Technically, yes; you can put Hydreigon on your team and, if your team is built well enough to support it, you'll see a decent return of investment. But is Hydreigon worth a team slot? That's a much trickier question, and I'm leaning towards no.

I've had plenty of experience with Hydreigon, and I've found his talents aren't in particular demand in this metagame. He's fast, but not fast enough, and Latios and Terrakion are faster. He's bulky, but not that bulky, and Garchomp and Dragonite are bulkier. He's a good mixed attacker, but so are Kyurem-B and Salamence, and Salamence has access to boosting moves and an arguably better typing (Hydreigon exchanges a weakness to Rock and 4X weakness to Ice for weaknesses to Bug and Fighting... worth it?). His Draco Meteros are like nukes, but so are Latios', and Latios is faster and not quite so weak to priority (but being weak to T-Tar sucks). All in all, Hydreigon is a quinessential jack-of-all-trades Dragon-type; he does everything at least decently, but there will always be Pokemon who can do one specific thing Hydreigon does better.

I think that one of the best tests of whether or not a Pokemon is worth a slot on your team is if, in the process of team-building, if you ever stop and say to yourself "You know what this team is crying out for? A Choice Banded Terrakion / physically defensive Hippowdon / etc." I've used Hydreigon before, but never because I thought he fulfilled a niche my team required, but because I just wanted to. As I said, you can use Hydreigon on your team and get a decent return of investment, but chances will always be good that you're better off using something else.



Also, Hydreigon does not look badass. He looks like a chubby little dinosaur with a flower on his head and two sock puppets for hands. I mean seriously he's just dopey looking >:V
 

PK Gaming

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Is Hydreigon viable? Yes

Would you use it in a high level tournament over similar Pokemon? Probably not. Hydreigon's incredible offense doesn't really count for much when its revenge killed by every relevant offensive threat in OU(Top 5 alone bodies Hydreigon). That doesn't mean its not tournament viable (it is, i've seen good players do work with it) but that speed and fighting-type are just too huge of a weakness to have in this metagame.
 
I have been using hydreigon for some time, specifically the mixed set. Its definitely dangerous and simply uncounterable:
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk/ 252 SAtk/ 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Superpower
- Dark Pulse
Pairing this with wobbufett is a good strategy since wobba can beat the scarfers that haunt hydreigon. The main problem with hydreigon is its fighting weakness and disappointing speed. Also i dont get the slashes in his set. Earthquake doenst hit anything that the other moves doesnt already, and why would i bother roosting when i should be attacking everything that switches in? Hydreigon inst a sweeper and doesnt have the speed to pull off tailwind before fainting to help a teammate. Dark pulse is always the superior choice, ohkoing jellicent, reuniclus, celebi (without having to risk a fire blast miss) and being a good stab in general. Anyway i say that Hydreigon is definitely viable in the current meta but he needs some support to be effective. Revenge killing is the only way to deal with it so teammates that can trap and kill scarfers are essential like the aforementioned wobba and gothitelle. Just make use of using hydreigon advantages over mixmence. Not weak to rocks means it doenst need rapid spin support, acces to a secondary stab makes it less reliant on its dragon moves, access to superpower allows it to oneshot ttar and of course it has a higher sp atk. Overall a good mixed attacker that has several flaws that prevent it from demolishing entire teams but nevertheless a solid choice if youre willing to give it the right support.
 

alexwolf

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Earthquake doenst hit anything that the other moves doesnt already,
2HKOes Jirachi in rain, OHKOes Heatran before it Toxic's you without droping your stats, checks SubCM Jirachi, and allows Hydreigon to 2HKO Tentacruel in rain even after it uses Protect (DM + EQ 2HKOes). Jirachi in rain and Heatran alone are two really good reasons to use it.
 
Personally, if I were to rank Mixed Hydreigon in terms of the sets that OU Dragons run, it's high up there. But it's not the best mixed set in the business.
That honour, I feel can only go to MixMence. The advantages Salamence has over Hydreigon are:
a) Better speed: Hydreigon's speed is close, but Salamence's speed allows it to tie with Jirachi and Celebi amongst other common threats
b) Both Outrage and DM: This makes MixMence more deadly than Mixed Hydreigon because both hit hard as hell and have Dragon STAB.
c) Moxie: This is perhaps the best reason why I fear MixMence more: One boost and it can OHKO random stuff(even steel types) and pick up boosts on the way to 6-0.
Hydreigon can learn Outrage as well. Just wanted to point that out
 
2HKOes Jirachi in rain, OHKOes Heatran before it Toxic's you without droping your stats, checks SubCM Jirachi, and allows Hydreigon to 2HKO Tentacruel in rain even after it uses Protect (DM + EQ 2HKOes). Jirachi in rain and Heatran alone are two really good reasons to use it.
Against subcalm rachi even in rain fire blast is doing a little bit more. Its also a 3hko with only a tiny chance to 2hko after rocks. Agaisnt heatran, Hydreigon doesnt mind poison that much. Without Dark Pulse you can no longer beat sp def jellicent and is forced to use draco meteor to beat reuniclus and starmie. The only thing earthquake beats is rain jirachi with 252 HP/ 0 Def. Of course you could argue that teams that have bigger trouble with rachi than with jellicent would prefer quake but i feel like having a secondary stab is usually more useful.
 

Gary

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Why are we only talking about Sub CM Jirachi? I find Earthquake to have its best uses against Specially Defensive Jirachi in the rain, who is MUCH more commonly used in this metagame anyway. Earthquake is pretty much a guaranteed 2HKO after SR, while Fire Blast only does about 32.92 - 38.61% in the rain. That's why EQ is used so much on Hydreigon, so it can beat specially defensive Jirachi without having to worry about being stalled out by the Protect + Wish variants. Also, EQ is very useful against Max HP Heatran, who can ALWAYS survive a Superpower. As a matter of fact, Hydreigon HATES to be poisoned, especially if its Life Orbed. It has to worry about LO recoil, damage from Toxic, and possibly from hail/sand/weak attacks. Roost only softens the blow, but not by much. Besides, if you're running EQ, you're probably not running Roost, so that's even worse. I also never find myself using Dark Pulse on Hydreigon. The ONLY thing I've found Dark Pulse to be useful against, is SpD Jellicent. That's pretty much it. Earthquake/Roost is so much more useful.
 
I have a feeling it would overcentralize UU. The only thing that can really stop any variant in UU is Mienshao, who even then can only revenge it. If it does go down, it will probably be in BL.
 

alexwolf

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Against subcalm rachi even in rain fire blast is doing a little bit more. Its also a 3hko with only a tiny chance to 2hko after rocks. Agaisnt heatran, Hydreigon doesnt mind poison that much. Without Dark Pulse you can no longer beat sp def jellicent and is forced to use draco meteor to beat reuniclus and starmie. The only thing earthquake beats is rain jirachi with 252 HP/ 0 Def. Of course you could argue that teams that have bigger trouble with rachi than with jellicent would prefer quake but i feel like having a secondary stab is usually more useful.
Hydreigon will be switching into SubCM Jirachi not the other way around. And by the time that Hydreigon gets to attack Jirachi it will already have gotten a Calm Mind boost meaning that EQ outdamages Fire Blast. Without EQ, Hydreigon becomes setup bait for SubCM Jirachi in rain, which can simply get at +2 and then create Subs which can't be broken by one Fire Blast.
 

Gary

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I have a feeling it would overcentralize UU. The only thing that can really stop any variant in UU is Mienshao, who even then can only revenge it. If it does go down, it will probably be in BL.
I agree. 98 Base speed is a LOT better in UU, being able to outspeed common threats such as non scarfed Heracross, Darmanitan, Kingdra, and Chandelure. It's even worse that the tier lacks any reliable switch-in on Draco Meteor, and Steel-types like Registeel who don't mind it much, are fried by Fire Blast. If Hydreigon drops, a Scarfed Fighting-type or Flygon would be pretty much mandatory on every team.
 
Actually, Weavile outspeeds and OHKOes, so a Hydreigon drop would trigger a rise in Weavile usage.
Also, the reason I believe MixMence is more dangerous as a mixed attacker than Hydreigon is because of Moxie. Moxie means Salamence can beat physical walls with DM and, once he's collected a Moxie Boost, go on rampage, Outraging and taking out mons whereas Hydreigon has no such advantage. Salamence's Flying is better than Hydreigon's dark simply because dark makes it weak to fighting, one of the most common attacking types in the tier. Nevertheless, if used correctly Hydreigon can be quite dangerous.
 
Popular opinion here seems to be that hydreigon is outclassed by other dragons. He does tend to be, but only because people keep trying to use him like other dragons. Hydreigon is much more niche than people make him out to be, so I'm here to clear things up.

The only reason to use the specs set over latios is because hydreigon doesn't get pursuited. Thing is, his speed is still disapointing, so he's not as good against more offensive teams, so you'll need to compensate with other mons.

The Choice scarf set is unique amonst OU dragons for U-turn. I always abuse it when I use him.

I think the mixed attacker set is near garbage. I have yet to find a decent reason to use hydreigon over kyurem.

The sub 3 attacks is my favorite set right now. Thing is, I keep seeing people using dragon pulse on here. When you use dragon pulse, you are inadvetently getting him outclassed by kyurem again. Dark pulse I feel should be used here whenever possible. Dark pulse maintains similar power, but hits quite a few things more effectively, like starmie, gengar, and jellicent. You may miss out on other dragons, but that's why you use other dragons.
 
I think the mixed attacker set is near garbage. I have yet to find a decent reason to use hydreigon over kyurem.
Hydreigon is not weak to rocks, not weak to bullet punch, not vulnerable to spikes and toxic spikes, has a better movepool, resistance to fire moves and immunity to ground and psychic.
 
Hydreigon is not weak to rocks, not weak to bullet punch, not vulnerable to spikes and toxic spikes, has a better movepool, resistance to fire moves and immunity to ground and psychic.
Kyurem-b has 170 attack and 120 special attack...

To be honest though, they aren't too comparable. They play differently. (though i still prefer kyurem in every case)
 
Many of the OU Dragons excel at attacking from one side of the spectrum (Dragonite: base 134 Attack, for instance). However, Hydreigon has solid attacking prowess all-around, and one of the best movepools out there (Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Surf, Head Smash, Focus Blast, you name it!). However, where it is lacking is the base 99 speed, one short of being on par with a ton of Pokemon in OU, including Salamence, one of its main competitors. A Choice Scarf helps with this, but Hydreigon can't utilize its coverage options as well, and it is still outsped by ScarfMence, Scarf Landorus-I, and so forth.

Therefore, Tailwind is great support for Hydreigon, letting it switch moves while letting it keep its great attacking abilities. However, good Tailwind users are uncommon. Salamence can provide Tailwind support, but outside of DragMag, most teams won't run both Pokemon. Hydreigon can learn Tailwind itself, but then it loses a valuable slot for coverage. I once saw a Whimsicott utilize Prankster Tailwind to open up a Kyurem-B sweep, so something similar could be done here. In short, if Tailwind is somehow given to Hydreigon, it becomes a much more potent beast.
 
I find Hydreigon's Mixed Attacker set to be mediocre at best. Getting Hydreigon in safely is a difficult task, and due to the Mixed Attacker's frailty it's unlikely to happen more than once in a battle (if at all). And due to how easily it is to revenge kill, you're left with only one turn to try to OHKO, or at least severely cripple, one of your opponent's team member. At best, you actually choose the right move out of DM / Fire Blast / Superpower and you secure a kill, but even then you are only breaking even with the opponent. Choose the wrong move, and you've just wasted a teamslot.

I find Choice Specs Hydreigon much more viable, as it enables Hydreigon to fulfill the niche of being a Dragon with access to U-turn. Why stress over choosing between your coverage moves when you can simply U-turn? Of course this can still be taken advantage of, but it's generally far more reliable. I've even experimented with 252 Atk+ Choice Band Hydreigon running Crunch / Superpower / U-turn / Outrage, because really what else are you going to use besides U-turn. Choice Band Superpower smashes Heatran and Ferrothorn, while Crunch takes chunks out of Water-types not named Keldeo. Outrage if you don't need your Hydreigon anymore.

That being said, I've been trying to include Hydreigon in my teambuilding, and I'm surprised that no one has suggested more defensively oriented sets. 92/90/90 defenses are workable when your base SpA is so high that you can cut EV's in SpA and still retain decent hitting power. More importantly, the lack of a Stealth Rock weakness, no Pursuit weakness, and resistances to both Water and Electric lets it switch in easily against many defensive Pokemon, as well as allowing it to survive a rain-boosted Hydro Pump if necessary.

Here's a spread I've been running:

Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 108 HP / 48 Spd / 176 SDef / 176 SAtk
Modest Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Roost
- Substitute

The EV spread lets it reach 352 HP / 363 SpA / 260 SpD / 244 Spe. Focus Blast can be used over Flamethrower for better coverage, but it's a terrible move so don't. This set allows Hydreigon to beat the FerroCruel combo without having to worry about being worn down by Scald + residual damage. Substitute keeps Hydreigon safe from a myriad of status inflicters such as Politoed, Jellicent, and Tentacruel. Once Hydreigon is behind a Substitute (without a status), most defensive Water-types will have no option but to switch out. I love leading with this thing against Rain teams, as they will most likely lead with Politoed and will either be forced to switch or be Choice-locked into a move. Here's some calculations showing how Hydreigon fares against Starmie and Keldeo:

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 108 HP / 176 SpD Hydreigon in rain: 144-170 (40.9 - 48.29%) -- 15.23% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 108 HP / 176 SpD Hydreigon: 205-242 (58.23 - 68.75%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Ice Beam vs. 108 HP / 176 SpD Hydreigon: 236-278 (67.04 - 78.97%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 108 HP / 176 SpD Hydreigon in rain: 166-196 (47.15 - 55.68%)

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 108 HP / 176 SpD Hydreigon in rain: 133-157 (37.78 - 44.6%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 108 HP / 176 SpD Hydreigon in rain: 199-234 (56.53 - 66.47%) :(

Not the greatest, Secret Sword is an OHKO on Hydreigon as well.

Bonus Venusaur calculation:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 108 HP / 176 SpD Hydreigon: 289-341 (82.1 - 96.87%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


And here's a few of the more important attacking calculations:
176+ SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 127-151 (34.89 - 41.48%)

176+ SpA Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 156-188 (44.31 - 53.4%)

176+ SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 169-201 (64.75 - 77.01%)

176+ SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 163-193 (50.3 - 59.56%)

176+ SpA Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi in rain: 104-124 (25.74 - 30.69%) (don't try this)



Just some final notes: I've tried a Rest / Sleep Talk / Dragon Pulse / Flamethrower set, nice because you can switch in on status but sleep is super abusable and Hydreigon ends up just kind of sitting around tanking but not actually doing much. I've also ran a para-shuffle set (Substitute / Dragon Tail / Thunder Wave / Roost) that I feel has its merits. Dragonite can run the same set, but Hydreigon has the upper hand in the Speed department, most notably letting it Substitute up before being burned by Rotom-W. Specially defensive Hydreigon is great at forcing switches, and with Dragon Tail you can at the very least cause your opponent some frustration in getting a Pokemon in to counter Hydreigon, if not rack up a ton of residual damage. Thunder Wave will punish opponents who try to break your Substitute with a fast attacker, and the threat of it alone may force more switches out of your opponent. Roost lets you stall out Gyro Ball from Forretress and Ferrothorn, and it's crucial for survival if Hydreigon gets burned.
 
Kyurem-b has 170 attack and 120 special attack...

To be honest though, they aren't too comparable. They play differently. (though i still prefer kyurem in every case)
they both still 2hko everything they need to, right? it's just that hydreigon is more prediction heavy.
 
Although Hydreigon is definitely still a big threat to almost any team, the faster, more offensive metagame takes a significant hit on its viability. Despite lacking Superpower + Roost, I'd argue that Hydreigon was more effective in the BW1 metagame because everything was slower and bulkier, meaning its base 98 Speed was more of an asset, and could tear through teams lacking one of the pink blobs with its Sub + 3 attacks set or even its 4 attacks set. It was an amazing answer to the dominant Volt-Turn teams of the time. Nowadays, there's far less it can come in safely on, especially with so many Fighting attacks being thrown around. Of course, once it gets in, it's still a monster, but it just doesn't have the same impact it once had, and has to tread carefully in this dangerous new metagame. It also has competition from Kyurem-B (and Garchomp to an extent) as a wall breaker, though not being SR weak and having a less predictable movepool still gives it an edge. Hydreigon can be tough to use, but can still be incredible on balanced teams which need something to break down defensive cores with ease. It isn't so useful on HO teams though, nor does it match up particularly well against them.
 
I feel like Hydreigon is played to its strengths too much.

Some pokemon in OU are played to maximise their strengths (Scizor, Latios, Salamence, Skarmory) and require a little support to get the ball rolling..

Hydreigon strikes me as a pokemon that is ideally used playing to opponents weaknesses (like Gastrodon, Rotom, Garchomp, Tyranitar), A mixed set with no counters is overhyped, just because there are no counters doesn't mean the set is ideal. The substitute set is amazing and will often score me some critical ko's, its hard to decide on the 3 moves unfortunately but I've been using:

-Dragon Pulse
-Substitute
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power

The only counters to the above are Jellicent that can avoid crit hax, Blobs, SpDef Gastro, Tyranitar, Ice beam bulky Politoed and Bronzong/specially defensive Skarmory in rain. Earth power reliably 2hkoes ALL heatran when combined with dragon pulse, unlike the inconsistant focus blast (49% to 2hko specially defensive versus 100% chance to 2hko).

Hydreigons substitute set is so unique because you can literally do anything with it, the few pokemon that troll the above set may be trapped by Gothitelle for example, It also makes a great lure for choiced fighting moves to set up on :).

I also suggest 285 speed + modest, if you decide not to run dragon pulse or couldn't care less about dragonite (breloom outspeeds + ohkoes regardless) you can run enough speed to outdo bulky tentacruel and dump the remaining into HP, this gives you a better threshold to survive miscellanous moves like a -2 draco meteor from latios or a LO ice shard from mamoswine.
 

blunder

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I feel like Hydreigon is played to its strengths too much.

Some pokemon in OU are played to maximise their strengths (Scizor, Latios, Salamence, Skarmory) and require a little support to get the ball rolling..

Hydreigon strikes me as a pokemon that is ideally used playing to opponents weaknesses (like Gastrodon, Rotom, Garchomp, Tyranitar), A mixed set with no counters is overhyped, just because there are no counters doesn't mean the set is ideal. The substitute set is amazing and will often score me some critical ko's, its hard to decide on the 3 moves unfortunately but I've been using:

-Dragon Pulse
-Substitute
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power

The only counters to the above are Jellicent that can avoid crit hax, Blobs, SpDef Gastro, Tyranitar, Ice beam bulky Politoed and Bronzong/specially defensive Skarmory in rain. Earth power reliably 2hkoes ALL heatran when combined with dragon pulse, unlike the inconsistant focus blast (49% to 2hko specially defensive versus 100% chance to 2hko).

Hydreigons substitute set is so unique because you can literally do anything with it, the few pokemon that troll the above set may be trapped by Gothitelle for example, It also makes a great lure for choiced fighting moves to set up on :).

I also suggest 285 speed + modest, if you decide not to run dragon pulse or couldn't care less about dragonite (breloom outspeeds + ohkoes regardless) you can run enough speed to outdo bulky tentacruel and dump the remaining into HP, this gives you a better threshold to survive miscellanous moves like a -2 draco meteor from latios or a LO ice shard from mamoswine.

This set is really, really good right now to protect from priority and get through slower threats with its sheer power. Though I would really recommend focus blast over earth power as you still beat Heatran as well as Ohking things like Terrakion and destroying Tyranitar
 
Honestly, base 125 special attack isn't even that good anymore. Gardevoir has the same amount. Lots of pokemon like Latios hit harder and are faster. While Hydreigon has an amazing movepool, being outsped by everything and being weak to fighting doesn''t let him use it much. Hydreigons dark type gives him no favors, as usually his other coverage moves are better. so basically it gives him extra weaknesses to bug and fighting.

I'm sure one day something will happen and he'll rise once again, but right now he's just not worth it.
 

Dark Fallen Angel

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Honestly, base 125 special attack isn't even that good anymore. Gardevoir has the same amount. Lots of pokemon like Latios hit harder and are faster. While Hydreigon has an amazing movepool, being outsped by everything and being weak to fighting doesn''t let him use it much. Hydreigons dark type gives him no favors, as usually his other coverage moves are better. so basically it gives him extra weaknesses to bug and fighting.

I'm sure one day something will happen and he'll rise once again, but right now he's just not worth it.
Gardevoir has the same amount, but it does not get a base 140 attack, and Hydreigon technically hits harder than Latios since Latios almost always use a Timid nature, while Hydreigon can afford to run Modest, Mild, or Rash.

However, it's true that it is, in fact, plagued by its Speed and its weakness to Fighting. It also does not resist any common priority move found on OU.

As for the Dark Pulse issue, apart from Reuniclus and Jellicent I've found this attack to also be useful when you want to conserve Draco Meteor for something more dangerous, such as when battling against bulky Water-types (as they resist Fire Blast, which has the same power as STAB Dark Pulse). It is also useful against specially defensive Celebi on rain, as Celebi can laugh at Fire Blast on that condition and avoid the 2HKO from Draco Meteor. Another move that could be run in that fourth moveslot is Tailwind, but sadly, you have to use the much less powerful Dragon Pulse since using Draco Meteor would be counterproductive. Apart from that, only U-Turn seems to be a noteworthy option, but Hydreigon is better of just attacking.
 
Gardevoir has the same amount, but it does not get a base 140 attack, and Hydreigon technically hits harder than Latios since Latios almost always use a Timid nature, while Hydreigon can afford to run Modest, Mild, or Rash.

However, it's true that it is, in fact, plagued by its Speed and its weakness to Fighting. It also does not resist any common priority move found on OU.

As for the Dark Pulse issue, apart from Reuniclus and Jellicent I've found this attack to also be useful when you want to conserve Draco Meteor for something more dangerous, such as when battling against bulky Water-types (as they resist Fire Blast, which has the same power as STAB Dark Pulse). It is also useful against specially defensive Celebi on rain, as Celebi can laugh at Fire Blast on that condition and avoid the 2HKO from Draco Meteor. Another move that could be run in that fourth moveslot is Tailwind, but sadly, you have to use the much less powerful Dragon Pulse since using Draco Meteor would be counterproductive. Apart from that, only U-Turn seems to be a noteworthy option, but Hydreigon is better of just attacking.
STAB dark pulse has 120 base power. A resisted fire blast is 60. 120 is double of 60. Check ur math bro
 

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