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In-Game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Colonel M
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Just posting to try and place my opinion on some of the Pokes, here goes:
Mid split into Upper Mid and Lower Mid: Already argued and agreed with amongst many of us, this will REALLY help us separate some of the more controversial pokes
Frillish: Undeniably Low, unobtainable until Twist Mountain, is low levelled, has a terrible level up movepool and evolves pretty dang late.
Thundurus: Low, I've already argued against this thing being in Mid numerous times before, and the fact that it's a roamer should cement its and Tornadus' positioning in Low.
Elgyem: Probably the worst Psychic type in B/W and definately deserves to be pushed down to Low, comes late, its insanely slow, has a bad initial movepool and very common ingame weaknesses. Learning Thunderbolt sadly doesn't really make up for it.
Panpour: High, definately the best ingame Water type in B/W. It's the strongest of the monkeys right off the bat, and if you have Snivy compliments your team very well by giving you an option against your weaknesses. It gets even better when it learns Scald, which at that point of the game is ridiculous and allows it to KO practically anything other than those which resist it. At this point you can also just Water Stone it to make it ridiculously powerful. It stays strong late on too, due to high speed, access to Surf and a pretty decent movepool, and even if you didn't start with Snivy, it isn't particularly bad if you get it in Pinwheel Forest.
Terrakion: Absolutely Low, I can definately see why you're putting it in Mid, but for all of its good points, it has many more negative ones. It comes at the literal last point of the game, is very difficult to catch, has to be grinded up to match the rest of your team and most importantly, you need to catch Cobalion to get it, and in that case, why not just use Cobalion instead?
Timburr: Deserves High, it may be slow, but it has great power and bulk and comes before Lenora, beating her easily and giving good EXP. Unlike all of the other trade mons, it also doesn't lose much from lacking trade access, as it's still strong and bulky as a Gurrdurr. Fighting also happens to kick ass ingame due to all of the Normal and Dark types.
Pidove: Deserves Mid (though Lower Mid when the tier split hopefully occurs), its level up movepool isn't brilliant, but it gets a lot of tools to help it along the way, most notably Scope Lens, which combines with Air Cutter and Super Luck to give it numerous crits to make up for its otherwise lacklustre power. It also gains Return at this point, making it pretty strong as well, and learning Fly serves as a beautiful convenience for you later. Not the best ingame bird, but it definately isn't a bad Poke.
Yeah, hoping some of the posters here consider/argue with my points made, and that the OP gets updated soon enough.
Mid split into Upper Mid and Lower Mid: Already argued and agreed with amongst many of us, this will REALLY help us separate some of the more controversial pokes
Frillish: Undeniably Low, unobtainable until Twist Mountain, is low levelled, has a terrible level up movepool and evolves pretty dang late.
Thundurus: Low, I've already argued against this thing being in Mid numerous times before, and the fact that it's a roamer should cement its and Tornadus' positioning in Low.
Elgyem: Probably the worst Psychic type in B/W and definately deserves to be pushed down to Low, comes late, its insanely slow, has a bad initial movepool and very common ingame weaknesses. Learning Thunderbolt sadly doesn't really make up for it.
Panpour: High, definately the best ingame Water type in B/W. It's the strongest of the monkeys right off the bat, and if you have Snivy compliments your team very well by giving you an option against your weaknesses. It gets even better when it learns Scald, which at that point of the game is ridiculous and allows it to KO practically anything other than those which resist it. At this point you can also just Water Stone it to make it ridiculously powerful. It stays strong late on too, due to high speed, access to Surf and a pretty decent movepool, and even if you didn't start with Snivy, it isn't particularly bad if you get it in Pinwheel Forest.
Terrakion: Absolutely Low, I can definately see why you're putting it in Mid, but for all of its good points, it has many more negative ones. It comes at the literal last point of the game, is very difficult to catch, has to be grinded up to match the rest of your team and most importantly, you need to catch Cobalion to get it, and in that case, why not just use Cobalion instead?
Timburr: Deserves High, it may be slow, but it has great power and bulk and comes before Lenora, beating her easily and giving good EXP. Unlike all of the other trade mons, it also doesn't lose much from lacking trade access, as it's still strong and bulky as a Gurrdurr. Fighting also happens to kick ass ingame due to all of the Normal and Dark types.
Pidove: Deserves Mid (though Lower Mid when the tier split hopefully occurs), its level up movepool isn't brilliant, but it gets a lot of tools to help it along the way, most notably Scope Lens, which combines with Air Cutter and Super Luck to give it numerous crits to make up for its otherwise lacklustre power. It also gains Return at this point, making it pretty strong as well, and learning Fly serves as a beautiful convenience for you later. Not the best ingame bird, but it definately isn't a bad Poke.
Yeah, hoping some of the posters here consider/argue with my points made, and that the OP gets updated soon enough.
Isn't Oshawatt way better? This is a serious question as I haven't used Panpour before. I can understand why Panpour would be awesome and it's probably the best of the monkeys, but Samurott hits slightly harder and is also bulkier. Plus it has a more interesting movepool, with Megahorn being nice to hit the Psychics with (though Simipour has everything it needs). Also, you have to pick Snivy to get the free Panpour before the first gym which is kinda crappy. Otherwise you have to catch it in Pinwheel Forest, which could take a while if you're unlucky.
Honestly, they're pretty similar. Which one you call better largely depends on how much you value Speed and the 22-35 level range (where Simipour is indisputably better unless you want to give it your Eviolite). Keep in mind that while getting Panpour means you took the worst starter, picking Oshawatt gives you the worst Monkey by a loooong margain. Also, it's not impossible to pick up a Panpour even if you are running Tepig, in case you don't want Tympole/Ducklett/whatever for your Water Pokemon.
While Panpour lacks Megahorn, X-Scissor does the job well enough, and Panpour picks up Acrobatics, Brick Break (often preferable to Revenge), Shadow Claw, and Rock Slide. I'd say that Panpour wins as far as movepool goes, but Oshawatt is slightly better overall. They're both high material, though.
Of course, since Fireburn's opinion is the only one that really matters in the end, Panpour's going to remain Mid for the final article.
Yeah, except levelling Ferroseed up is a PAIN though. :/
Extremely. Some of my experiences on pokemon I used in my play-through:
Tepig: Really good. STAB Fire is awesome and it gets Flame Charge around Pinwheel Forest which is pretty much all it needs until Heat Crash. Top-notch.
Lillipup: Fairly good. Tackle's good until you get Chip Away. It really pulled it's weight, and was surprisingly durable.
Patrat: Very weak. I only used it for death fodder so I could use potions on Tepig and Lillipup. Low.
Purrloin: Same as Patrat.
Audino: I actually caught an Audino before I learned of all the Exp you gain from it. I mainly used it to tank hits and hit back with Return. Didn't pack much of a punch but I used it until Route 4. Middling value.
Blitzle: Somewhat useful. Shock Wave and Spark hit kind of hard, but level 27 is a bit of a long time to wait for an evolution. Middling value.
Pansage: Meh. I used it a bit early game but dropped it in Nimbasa. Too weak for my taste.
Panpour: I caught one in the Lostlorn forest and it was useful. I mostly used it as an HM slave but it had good STAB for against Clay. High value.
Woobat: This was my flier and one of my only special attackers. She did okay with her resistances, and was useful against some of the gym leaders. Has good speed and passable special attack. Middling value.
Scraggy: I love Scraggy! He's so useful with good bulk and attack power. Learns good moves early on like Brick Break and Payback (which are pretty much all it needs until HJK and Crunch). Very high value.
Yamask: I used Yamask to replace Audino as my "tank". He didn't dissapoint. Will-o-wisp and Hex are really the only moves I used for most of the game. Good value.
That's pretty much all I used for a while until I got to Iccirus.
Mienfoo: An absolute boss in-game. He levels up fast so he caught up well with the rest of my team. Gets Force Palm (later HJK :naughty:), U-Turn, and Acrobatics which was all I needed (also had Aura Sphere in case I was paranoid about an HJK miss). Really high value.
Deino: I was a bit paranoid about all of my fighting types so I grinded Deino into a Zweilous. Didn't use him much but he was useful. Not worth grinding in Victory Road to get though. Middling value (until end-game and Hydreigon is a BEAST).
My end-game team was Emboar/Scrafty/Mienfoo/Swoobat/Zweilous/Cofagrigus (which I swapped for Reshiram). It was pretty successful.
Tepig: Really good. STAB Fire is awesome and it gets Flame Charge around Pinwheel Forest which is pretty much all it needs until Heat Crash. Top-notch.
Lillipup: Fairly good. Tackle's good until you get Chip Away. It really pulled it's weight, and was surprisingly durable.
Patrat: Very weak. I only used it for death fodder so I could use potions on Tepig and Lillipup. Low.
Purrloin: Same as Patrat.
Audino: I actually caught an Audino before I learned of all the Exp you gain from it. I mainly used it to tank hits and hit back with Return. Didn't pack much of a punch but I used it until Route 4. Middling value.
Blitzle: Somewhat useful. Shock Wave and Spark hit kind of hard, but level 27 is a bit of a long time to wait for an evolution. Middling value.
Pansage: Meh. I used it a bit early game but dropped it in Nimbasa. Too weak for my taste.
Panpour: I caught one in the Lostlorn forest and it was useful. I mostly used it as an HM slave but it had good STAB for against Clay. High value.
Woobat: This was my flier and one of my only special attackers. She did okay with her resistances, and was useful against some of the gym leaders. Has good speed and passable special attack. Middling value.
Scraggy: I love Scraggy! He's so useful with good bulk and attack power. Learns good moves early on like Brick Break and Payback (which are pretty much all it needs until HJK and Crunch). Very high value.
Yamask: I used Yamask to replace Audino as my "tank". He didn't dissapoint. Will-o-wisp and Hex are really the only moves I used for most of the game. Good value.
That's pretty much all I used for a while until I got to Iccirus.
Mienfoo: An absolute boss in-game. He levels up fast so he caught up well with the rest of my team. Gets Force Palm (later HJK :naughty:), U-Turn, and Acrobatics which was all I needed (also had Aura Sphere in case I was paranoid about an HJK miss). Really high value.
Deino: I was a bit paranoid about all of my fighting types so I grinded Deino into a Zweilous. Didn't use him much but he was useful. Not worth grinding in Victory Road to get though. Middling value (until end-game and Hydreigon is a BEAST).
My end-game team was Emboar/Scrafty/Mienfoo/Swoobat/Zweilous/Cofagrigus (which I swapped for Reshiram). It was pretty successful.
Panpour can't learn X-Scissor, I don't think. I don't like Acrobatics on things that lack STAB on it because it gets weakened when you give it the lucky egg. The other moves are ok though so maybe Panpour does have a wider movepool.
I don't think that Panpour and Oshawatt are even though. Although Panpour is probably better midgame, it's as rubbish as all of the monkeys when you first get it. Oshawatt, on the other hand, contributes for the whole game and provides a more efficient way to beat the game overall.
Oops, I was looking at Samurott's page when I saw that. It does learn Shadow Claw, though, which hits Psychics almost as well (which is the main thing that make Bug attacks worthwhile).
Lucky Egg is completely unnecessary unless your party size is too large. Switching your items around every time something levels up is such a hassle that even if the extra experience wasn't mostly superfluous I don't know if I'd bother.
Flying pairs incredibly well with Water in-game, since the only Gen 5 Pokemon that resists both is Zekrom. This means that even if you want your last two slots to be something like Work Up (which Oshawott also lacks) and Waterfall, you're still hitting everything pretty hard.
I've heard this statement before, and I still don't get it. The monkeys are pretty much on par with the rest of your team when you first get them (good speed for that point, but fairly lackluster attacking stats), only they come with their elemental attacks, which are kinda hard to come by at that point in the game. They roflstomp the first gym, at which point they get Work Up to basically negate any issue they had with their offenses.
Sure, they aren't Lillipup, but nothing else is at that point, either (except for Lillipup, of course).
I concede that Samurott is generally better for the late game (I still think they are fairly even early on), but there's no real point where I would go so far as to say that Panpour didn't contribute.
If we're talking about the most "efficient" way to beat the game, I doubt either Pokemon would ever see any use past Route 4. Leveling as few Pokemon as possible (3 is a good number to aim for) is by far the most efficient way of going through the game, and you can find that many Pokemon in the desert alone that outclass the two Water types in usefulness (Darumaka, Archen, and Scraggy are all better for most of the game).
Long story short, even though Oshawott is somewhat better, it doesn't mean they can't both be high.
Megahorn also hits grass and dark types. It offers more coverage than shadow claw. Panpour may have access to a lot of moves, but it can't afford to run everything so there is usually something it can't cover. Panpour probably has better options anyway. Samurott only needs a water move and Megahorn really.
Well I always use a party of 6 so lucky egg is helpful in my case. I think the benefits (leveling up faster) outway the downsides (having to switch items around regularly).
Trust me, the monkeys are bad early game. Period. They die faster than they can kill opponents. They are only on par with weak stuff like patrat and woobat. The starters, lillipup, blitzles and other stuff are all better than the monkeys.
You act as if coming with elemental attacks early game is useful. Why? There is very little at the start that cares about them. In panpours case it's tepig, pansear and roggenrolla. Everything else takes neutral damage, and that means underwhelming damage.
Also, you can't say that work up fixes this problem. They are too frail to set it up and have it alter the outcome of any battle. Audino makes a far better user of work up seeing as it has good defences and even hits harder than them early on (not that I'm saying that audino is good, just that its better than the monkeys early on).
The only good thing about them at the start is that they beat the first gym. But its not like they are compulsory to do that. Because of all this, to say that the monkeys are rubbish early game is not too far from the truth really.
Just to clarify, I didn't say that panpour doesn't contribute. I was just making the point that oshawatt contributes for the whole game, whereas panpour is underwhelming early on. This is the main reason that oshawatt is high and panpour is mid.
I don't know what point you're trying to make. Of course darumaka, archen and scraggy are more efficient. But this has little to do with oshawatt being less or efficient than panpour.
>Megahorn hits Dark types
>ignoring that the only Dark types in Unova are easily destroyed by other stuff.
Unova Dark types:
Zoroark--only N has it, pass
Krookodile--Simipour uses Surf. It's a OHKO!
Scrafty/Bisharp--Megahorn hits these guys neutral. Surf > Megahorn
Hydreigon--Only Ghetsis has this guy, and a few trainers in the last gym with Deino. No.
Mandibuzz--...who uses her ingame
As for Grass?
Serperior--only your rival will have this guy and frankly, LOLACROBATICS
Lilligant--LOL ACROBATICS
Whimsicott--see above
Simisage--see above
Leavanny--see above
Sawsbuck--might give some problems, but the above still apply
Amoongus/Ferrothorn/Maractus--implying anyone uses them ingame
Virizion--*headdesk*
Simipour doesn't even have any problems with Grass types, save for maybe Simisage. There goes Samurott's Megahorn's advantage.
>ignoring that the only Dark types in Unova are easily destroyed by other stuff.
Unova Dark types:
Zoroark--only N has it, pass
Krookodile--Simipour uses Surf. It's a OHKO!
Scrafty/Bisharp--Megahorn hits these guys neutral. Surf > Megahorn
Hydreigon--Only Ghetsis has this guy, and a few trainers in the last gym with Deino. No.
Mandibuzz--...who uses her ingame
As for Grass?
Serperior--only your rival will have this guy and frankly, LOLACROBATICS
Lilligant--LOL ACROBATICS
Whimsicott--see above
Simisage--see above
Leavanny--see above
Sawsbuck--might give some problems, but the above still apply
Amoongus/Ferrothorn/Maractus--implying anyone uses them ingame
Virizion--*headdesk*
Simipour doesn't even have any problems with Grass types, save for maybe Simisage. There goes Samurott's Megahorn's advantage.
Hmmm... I see your point lol. I was mainly trying to state the advantages megahorn has over shadow claw, though in hindsight the grass and dark coverage is irrelevent really.
Megahorn is still better though, seeing as it's stronger against psychic types than simipour's shadow claw (and that's assuming simipour is running it). 240bp for megahorn compared to 140bp for shadow claw is a significant. Megahorn is nice to have against bulky psychics like musharna (who is used quite a bit and can be annoying with hypnosis) and reuniclus (less common and caitlin's reuniclus has thunder anyway). Shadow claw has the advantage against the psychis/flying types, though it is only slightly more powerful in terms of base power (and swoobat dies to a light breeze anyway).
Megahorn is also nice against neutral stuff compared to shadow claw, if there are cases where your other moves are of no use (mainly against other water types).
Megahorn is still better though, seeing as it's stronger against psychic types than simipour's shadow claw (and that's assuming simipour is running it). 240bp for megahorn compared to 140bp for shadow claw is a significant. Megahorn is nice to have against bulky psychics like musharna (who is used quite a bit and can be annoying with hypnosis) and reuniclus (less common and caitlin's reuniclus has thunder anyway). Shadow claw has the advantage against the psychis/flying types, though it is only slightly more powerful in terms of base power (and swoobat dies to a light breeze anyway).
Megahorn is also nice against neutral stuff compared to shadow claw, if there are cases where your other moves are of no use (mainly against other water types).
Are there any water types that are better than Semipour barring Oshawott? If I choose Tepig or Snivy, what water-type would you suggest I use as "the best?"
Only waters I like are the good ones mentioned: Oshawott & Panpour-Simipour.
The ingame trade of Minccino for a Basculin is okay if you like the trade boost to experience.
Basculin has 98 base speed, which makes it faster (usually) than Samurott. But having such a sad movepool put me in the pickle of Adaptability AquaJet / Waterfall / Soak / Crunch.
Soak was very nice in that it reduces damage taken by killing off STAB, easing the cope with ghosts, and turning the Dragon Gym into a Water gym was just awesome.
Soak, switch to Rocky Helmet Serperior (in case of Dragon Tail).
The ingame trade of Minccino for a Basculin is okay if you like the trade boost to experience.
Basculin has 98 base speed, which makes it faster (usually) than Samurott. But having such a sad movepool put me in the pickle of Adaptability AquaJet / Waterfall / Soak / Crunch.
Soak was very nice in that it reduces damage taken by killing off STAB, easing the cope with ghosts, and turning the Dragon Gym into a Water gym was just awesome.
Soak, switch to Rocky Helmet Serperior (in case of Dragon Tail).
Technically, you battle Zekrom in both games, so this point is slightly false.
IMO I'd prolly class Swanna as "HM-Slave" Tier.
It's quite useful though if you want to use it seriously. Comes at an excellent time, gets almost immediate access to Scald, and has a gym just nice to rape with.
It's quite useful though if you want to use it seriously. Comes at an excellent time, gets almost immediate access to Scald, and has a gym just nice to rape with.
I think that Tympole is the best water type besides Oshawatt. That's just my opinion though. Some people prefer Panpour. Tympole is better at the start than Panpour, but then Panpour learns Scald and can evolve around the same time. Simipour is faster and more powerful than Seismitoad, but it's frailer, and Seismitoad can use Rain Dance to make up for its lower speed (Swift Swim) and attack (water attack boost) anyway.
Why is Tympole in high tier? Is it because of it only having 1 weakness? I mean, Seismitoad has pretty lackluster stats all around.
Tirtouga is probably the second best water type after Oshawott and Panpour. I think it's only being placed so low because everyone gets Archen (which is stronger, but still). It has insane defense, and Aqua Jet makes up for its low Speed stat. It has decent level up moves, and Smack Down, Aqua Jet, Crunch, and Curse should server well until it evolves.
Carracosta is a great pokemon, high attack, insane defense, and slightly lower special attack than Seismitoad. At level 40, it becomes a beast, Shell Smash giving it insane power and speed. It pretty much KOs everything after one Shell Smash, the only thing holding it back being the disappointing 32 base speed (Shell Smash helps a bit). That's truly its downfall.
Tirtouga is probably the second best water type after Oshawott and Panpour. I think it's only being placed so low because everyone gets Archen (which is stronger, but still). It has insane defense, and Aqua Jet makes up for its low Speed stat. It has decent level up moves, and Smack Down, Aqua Jet, Crunch, and Curse should server well until it evolves.
Carracosta is a great pokemon, high attack, insane defense, and slightly lower special attack than Seismitoad. At level 40, it becomes a beast, Shell Smash giving it insane power and speed. It pretty much KOs everything after one Shell Smash, the only thing holding it back being the disappointing 32 base speed (Shell Smash helps a bit). That's truly its downfall.
Tirtouga is good and it served me well, but that horrible base speed is an issue. It is constantly taking hits from all the stuff that outspeeds it (read: almost everything) so you have to constantly heal it (which means a trip back to the pokemon centre or having to spend money on items). Faster special attackers are particularly problematic and many are capable of OHKOing Tirtouga (unless you have sturdy).
Aqua Jet and Shell Smash help with the speed issues, but they can't stop Tirtouga taking hits. Aqua Jet is too weak to OHKO most stuff so it will take damage anyway, and Shell Smash requires set up turns and it is still outsped by some stuff. Also, it doesn't learn Shell Smash for a while (lv. 38 is the earliest point it can learn it if you choose to delay evolution by 1 level).
It's definitely mid tier and is one of the better pokemon in the tier, but I think putting it in high tier is pushing it a bit.
Aqua Jet and Shell Smash help with the speed issues, but they can't stop Tirtouga taking hits. Aqua Jet is too weak to OHKO most stuff so it will take damage anyway, and Shell Smash requires set up turns and it is still outsped by some stuff. Also, it doesn't learn Shell Smash for a while (lv. 38 is the earliest point it can learn it if you choose to delay evolution by 1 level).
It's definitely mid tier and is one of the better pokemon in the tier, but I think putting it in high tier is pushing it a bit.
I didn't say that Tirtouga should be in high tier. Actually, its speed is probably why it isn't in high tier. Originally, I was going to post something about Panpour being the best water type besides Oshawott (but not in high, maybe upper mid), but then I remembered Tirtouga, forgetting its speed problem until the very end. I'll adjust that.
Oops my mistake. I think I just assumed you were saying Tirtouga should be in high tier because you talked about how Tympole should not be in high tier (which I disagree with but whatever) and then you started talking about how good Tirtouga is (I thought you were suggesting it should replace Tympole in high tier).
But yeah Panpour is probably slightly better than Tirtouga, though it's a close contest.
But yeah Panpour is probably slightly better than Tirtouga, though it's a close contest.
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