Infernape

cosmicexplorer said:
Not at all. Infernape's dual 120 BP special STAB, with excellent coverage and the ability to OHKO Blissey after a single turn of setup is something that is very difficult to stop outside of Infernape's frailty, and can never be usurped by Blaziken.
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It can, actually. Blaziken just uses HJK.

I'd like to see a list of things that Infernape can reliably KO with the NP set that Blaziken can't, and I mean absolutely can't. Things like Jellicent that Blaze can KO with a decent coverage move don't count.

NPApe can still carry CC for Blissey and other special walls. Fire Blast and HP Ice gets pretty good coverage with CC I think.
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What other special walls, per se? I can't particularly think of any at the moment - Jellicent is immune, Latias resists it (and is faster), Milotic will take more from GK, Ferrothorn is roasted by Fire Blast...I'd rather go for the KO on Vaporeon, but I guess both are equally viable. If I were to use Infernape in the first place.
 
Hippowdon, Gliscor, Resttalk Gyarados, Bulky Dragonite (with multi scale he might survive a +2 nape hp ice though I'm not sure), Slowbro

I haven't done any calculations but I don't think Blaziken can ohko Hippow or Gliscor with any of his moves even at +2. He definitely can't take out Resttalk Gyarados, as even with Stone Edge, if you factor in Intimidate he fails to ohko while +2 Nape's Grass knot certainly does.

Bulky Dnite is questionable, but I listed it as a possibility. Slowbro can take anything Blaziken has, I'm pretty sure even after an SD boost. Nape can +2 on the special side hit Slowbro with a 80 BP GK that's super effective.
 
bludhoundz said:
Hippowdon, Gliscor, Resttalk Gyarados, Bulky Dragonite (with multi scale he might survive a +2 nape hp ice though I'm not sure), Slowbro

I haven't done any calculations but I don't think Blaziken can ohko Hippow or Gliscor with any of his moves even at +2. He definitely can't take out Resttalk Gyarados, as even with Stone Edge, if you factor in Intimidate he fails to ohko while +2 Nape's Grass knot certainly does.

Bulky Dnite is questionable, but I listed it as a possibility. Slowbro can take anything Blaziken has, I'm pretty sure even after an SD boost. Nape can +2 on the special side hit Slowbro with a 80 BP GK that's super effective.
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+2 Jolly LO HJK vs 252/252+ Hippowdon: 79.5% - 93.8%
+2 Adamant LO HJK vs 252/252+ Hippowdon: 87.1% - 102.9%
+2 Jolly LO Flare Blitz vs 252/252+ Gliscor: 83.9% - 99.2%
+2 Adamant LO Flare Blitz vs 252/252+ Gliscor: 91.8% - 108.5%
+1 Jolly Stone Edge vs 252/252+ Gyarados: 85.3% - 100.5%
+1 Adamant Stone Edge vs 252/252+ Gyarados: 93.9% - 110.7%
Dragonite takes over half from Stone Edge with Multi-Scale intact, so it can only come in on SD or a revenge kill, and only if SR is off the field (Extremespeed doesn't KO even with max+ Atk, so it has to survive a hit). Slowbro is 2HKO'd by Night Slash/Shadow Claw (and a chance of a 2HKO from Adamant Stone Edge), so it also has to be able to switch in safely.
 
Voodoo Pimp proves my point. ResTalk Gyara is actually a pretty decent check to Nape while it can't come into Blaziken at all.

Also, we should assume Adamant as it is the superior Blaziken nature - I don't particularly care about outpacing the rare Jolteon / Aero / Crobat as +1 when I can OHKO Gliscor with Flare Blitz.

Dragonite is an equal case for both, and using the mixed set, Blaziken is actually capable of taking on ALL of these threats, including Slowbro, and has the advantage of Speed Boost.
 
Blaziken should only have +1 (intimidate) against Gyara.

BTW, I was assuming the bulky pokemon switches in as Blaziken / Infernape setup their +2. In this case Blaziken is going to get ohko'd by Slowbro after failing to ohko. Ape doesn't have that problem. If you run Shadow Claw then Gyarados walls you completely. Ape's special set can break through both and doesn't have to worry about a specific move for either since Grass Knot takes them both out

But point taken, Blaziken can actually ko a lot of those guys o.o

BTW what move would he run on his mixed set that can take out a Slowbro?

Blaziken clearly has more muscle than Nape and can break through most (if not all) defensive threats more easily, I think Nape's niche is more of a choice set with U-Turn or as a Fake Out lead
 
bludhoundz said:
Blaziken should only have +1 (intimidate) against Gyara.

BTW, I was assuming the bulky pokemon switches in as Blaziken / Infernape setup their +2. In this case Blaziken is going to get ohko'd by Slowbro after failing to ohko. Ape doesn't have that problem. If you run Shadow Claw then Gyarados walls you completely. Ape's special set can break through both and doesn't have to worry about a specific move for either since Grass Knot takes them both out

But point taken, Blaziken can actually ko a lot of those guys o.o

BTW what move would he run on his mixed set that can take out a Slowbro?

Blaziken clearly has more muscle than Nape and can break through most (if not all) defensive threats more easily, I think Nape's niche is more of a choice set with U-Turn or as a Fake Out lead
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Grass Knot Infernape then loses to Salamence and Dragonite as it lacks HP Ice, as well as Garchomp since CC doesn't OHKO. Mixken 2HKOs Bro with HJK + HP Electric, I believe.

You said it yourself, Infernape is relegated to U-Turn with CB/CS, or Rocks lead.
 
Even then, he's an awful SR lead. There aren't a lot of SR pokemon who lose to Espeon. Infernape is sadly one of them. Getting beat out by Deoxys-S is also troubling.

Alright, so maybe he isn't awful as an SR lead, but he isn't a great one.
 
And with the drop of dedicated SR leads, its niche is diminished. Nape had a good run for its 4 years, now it can terrorize UU along with Swampert.
 
Let's look at what that actually accomplishes - nothing. It serves as a way for Infernape to hit the likes of Hippowdon and Gliscor harder as its SD set isn't strong enough to do it, but Blaziken can STILL outdamage the power output. Adamant SD LO Flare Blitz > Naive NP LO Fire Blast (Nape is forced to run a speed boosting nature).

With GK, Infernape has an easier time with Slowbro and Bloongell, but then it misses out on HP Ice and dragons, which Blaziken can easily pummel. It's also pretty likely that Infernape will NP only to have Latios or Starmie switch in, making its set up moot. This isn't a problem for Blaziken.

Infernape NEEDS to focus on taking advantage of its higher initial speed and balanced stats to be worth the slot over Blaziken - a Choice Bander or Specs Infernape can revenge threats that Blaze won't be able to (Garchomp, etc), and it hits pretty hard off the bat. U-Turn maintains momentum and actually has use outside of that by hitting Starmie and the Lati twins, two of Infernape's more common offensive checks, super-effectively.

It's either that or Stealth Rock in the lead slot.
 
As Blaziken is now banned, Infernape is no longer outclassed in its traditional roles. How do you all feel he fits those roles in today's metagame?
 
Now with Blaziken gone from OU we can stop all this discussion of Nape being outclassed. NP is a very good set still, and 108 speed is still quite good in this metagame.
 
NP still has to deal with the Lati twins, Starmie, and now the genies + Excadrill, not to mention that rain makes it much less effective. It also has to run more speed EVs to tie with the musketeers.

That said, it may not need as much investment in attack with LiteChansey around and other special walls being generally less common. The fact that Tyranitar is the favored special attacker will mean that most teams will struggle to check NP Ape outside of a speed tie, Latios, or Excadrill (and the latter has to worry about NP Vacuum Wave).
 
NPApe has its niche, but I think it still works best as a scarfed revenger. Unique speed tier, access to good coverage, and the ability to threaten both physical and special attacks make it unpredictable.
 
Kenshiro said:
NPApe has its niche, but I think it still works best as a scarfed revenger. Unique speed tier, access to good coverage, and the ability to threaten both physical and special attacks make it unpredictable.
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the 4 four fighting type legendarys all have 108 speed.
 
and our electric/bug spider also share's it speed tier and durant outpaces it with it's trolling 109 base speed
 
WHAT? Speed Boost Blaziken is banned? Wow I never saw that coming. : / It never caused me problems at all. Well thats kind of sad and good at the same time. Blazey finally hit OU but now its out... but Infernape got kicked out of UU and is back in business...

Strange.
 
AJC said:
and our electric/bug spider also share's it speed tier and durant outpaces it with it's trolling 109 base speed
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Lol, what business does durant have switching into an infernape in the first place.

Anyways, Infernape will probably rise to OU now. It still has a very useful and unique STAB combo that only it can use effectively cuz Emboar is lol... (unless Band but still...)
NP Ape isnt bad either with Vaccuum Wave for Excadrill it could come in quite handy.
 
voodoo pimp said:
+2 Jolly LO HJK vs 252/252+ Hippowdon: 79.5% - 93.8%
+2 Adamant LO HJK vs 252/252+ Hippowdon: 87.1% - 102.9%
+2 Jolly LO Flare Blitz vs 252/252+ Gliscor: 83.9% - 99.2%
+2 Adamant LO Flare Blitz vs 252/252+ Gliscor: 91.8% - 108.5%
+1 Jolly Stone Edge vs 252/252+ Gyarados: 85.3% - 100.5%
+1 Adamant Stone Edge vs 252/252+ Gyarados: 93.9% - 110.7%
Dragonite takes over half from Stone Edge with Multi-Scale intact, so it can only come in on SD or a revenge kill, and only if SR is off the field (Extremespeed doesn't KO even with max+ Atk, so it has to survive a hit). Slowbro is 2HKO'd by Night Slash/Shadow Claw (and a chance of a 2HKO from Adamant Stone Edge), so it also has to be able to switch in safely.
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252/252 hp/def bold slowbro(which is the most common set) doesn't get 2hkoed by any attack sd blaziken carries...so it is a 100% counter to sd blaziken!
it doesn't need to switch in safely...he can switch safely on any move that sd blaziken carries...
 
Yeah it was the only actual counter, actually.

Regarding Infernape, I think the NP set will be more popular than SD with the lack of special walls compared to physical walls. NP / Fire Blast / HP Ice / Close Combat lets it crush pretty much everything in sight, the exceptions being Slowbro, Quagsire, Gyarados, and Jellicent. If GK is used over HP Ice, they can be covered, but then you lose out on Garchomp, Salamence, and Dragonite.
 
I think I'm gonna vote for the banning of both Latios and Latias out of spite...

If going mixed or purely physical (which will probably be avoided), then would shadow claw be a good option for hitting the above dragons on the switch? Yes, it's shadow claw we're talking about here, but still!

Meh, I'll stick with nasty plot. How much power do you need to ohko trick room reuniclus with fire blast? Aside from him, the likes of Jellicient and the lati twins can be covered by partnering infernape up with a team member. Let's see if the king of swing can make a comeback into OU.
 
Wait. Where are people getting these claims that 'Infernape will finally rise to OU' or 'He's finally not UU'? Have tiers been out? I know Smogon has a new server with usage statistics but are they accessible? The usage statistics for the beta server are accessible 24/7 here http://91.121.73.228/Wifi/index.html but it has always shown Infernape up a few spots above Blaziken, around the 20s.
 
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