Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]

First thing I want to say is, I apologize if I'm off topic and bring up STABmons, I'd like you guys to know that I have no intentions to metabash any metas.

Alternatively, I could've paraphrased as "We shouldn't ban things so we won't ban too many things", or some other variation on the idea, but yes, this is pretty much exactly what Chopin said: "We shouldn't ban things, because we might end up banning too many things."

It's bad logic. We shouldn't be afraid to ban things for fear of banning too many things. Full stop.

No thread has ever considered it acceptable to say "We may end up chain-banning things as a consequence of this ban, so we shouldn't do it", either, so the rest of your post is kind of irrelevant.

Yes, you can say "it's bad logic" all you want, but you see, this kind of thing has happened before several times, most notably in a metagame called STABmons. Inheritance and STABmons is a very different meta, but they're similar in regards that they're intended to be broken. After Diggersby ban, there has been an endless chain of suspects and bans to the point that a new rule was created to stop the neverending bans, that leads us to the new STABmons we know today. As a result, I see complaints in PS because of the new limitations, making it less fun. That's what happens if you try to fix the meta that's intended to be broken. FUN is what attracts us to play, not balance, though balance is one of the necessary things to make it fun.

If we want to suspect or ban things, we have to consider "does the metagame REALLY benefit from this ban?" You see, Protean makes us use pokes like Alakazam, Azelf, Marowak, Rampardos, Haxorus, Tornadus Therian, as well as other pokes with badly distributed stats, (Marowak and Rampardos in this case) and pokes with good stats but underwhelming offensive typing (like Azelf and Alakazam). If we ban Protean, we basically make those pokes unviable, narrowing the variety. In this case, I'd say the metagame lose more than it gains if we ban Protean, because more variety is what makes the metagame more fun.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
All right, lemme lay out the full logic here.

If you remove Illusion from the equation, you are missing some information, but you can make reasonable inferences based on the information you do have available. Ignoring Protean as well, Alakazam is going to be a Special attacker that prefers Psychic moves, and it's going to avoid stall-y sets that rely on bulk because it can't pull them off. (And if it tries one, well, there you go, you have the advantage) Any non-Psychic move is coverage, not its primary attack, and Physical moves are sub-optimal. (Albeit it's conceivable an Alakazam set might appreciate something like Focus Punch for Chansey, like in Gen III) This in turn tells you a lot of things: it probably doesn't have priority, and if it does have priority that's actually worth commentary, that priority is Vacuum Wave, as it's either that or Prankster Nature Power off of Whimsicott. fair enough assuption. zam runs special attacks, and in return, you can be somewhat safe while facing it knowing such a factor is true.

So you can be confident that Special walls, particularly those immune to Psyshock/Psystrike are reasonable effective against Alakazam builds. (If it's running Secret Sword, that means it's running Keldeo, which gives it no proper STAB, among other problems) You also know its Speed tier: skipping over the question of Mega Alakazam for the moment, you know for a fact what can and cannot outspeed it on your team, barring Scarf, and if it's Scarfed then you will learn that and know that it's limited and going to switch a lot.yes, zam is naturally really fast, so enless you run hyper offense, chances are you will either be relying on priority, or a bulky attacker to take it down.

You know that Alakazam takes tremendous damage from Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch, and only the latter cares all that much about questions of build. (eg Vacuum Wave Alakazam, particularly backed by Nasty Plot, could potentially defeat a Sucker Punch-based counter unexpectedly) again, true, you know that zam has a massive weakness to 2 priority moves.

You know that Alakazam is too fragile to put up a Substitute capable of tanking a Seismic Toss/Night Shade.

You know that its Special bulk is actually decent, so you might want to avoid focusing too much on that.

You also will be tipped off to a lot of specific builds instantly: if it's GeoZam, the Fairy Aura is a blatant signal. If it's some kind of Mold Breaker build, you'll be warned of that too. If somebody decides Primordial Sea Alakazam has a niche, you'll be forewarned. yes. straightforward stuff here.

You won't, at first glance, know what Alakazam's item is (Unless it announces itself, like Air Balloon), you won't necessarily know what Ability it has (Again, unless it announces itself), and you won't know its exact four moves, but you can eliminate vast swathes of possibilities by virtue of them being so sub-optimal that if the opponent is doing one of them making a mistake based on "Well, actually it is a Physical Alakazam" is likely irrelevant and easily recovered from, and the terribleness of the build in turn exploited. yes, this is true with every pokemon. moreso then in other metas.

Then we add Illusion in.

Now, you know nothing about what Alakazam is. You have only the certainty that the Alakazam in front of you has to be one of the six members you can see on the enemy team, which is fairly limited in utility if they haven't done something silly like make a mono-Psychic-Special-Attacker team. ok...

Now, your decision-making process can go one of two ways, as I laid out before.

In the first scenario, you assume everything is non-Illusion until you hit a blatant Illusion. (eg Gengar using Knock Off to OHKO a bulky mon well outside of Gengar's ability to Knock Off to death) In this case, Illusion is basically uncompetitive bullshit you are incapable of accounting for and doing anything about until after it has likely cost you a Pokemon. "Virtually guaranteed to KO at least one enemy team member" is not an acceptable trait in Smogon metas.except suprising your counters is a normal thing in competative pokemon, and it is common for pokemon to run suprise sets to catch their usual counters off guard. what makes this any different from protean landorus T and aerialate landorus T? both can pick off eachothers counters and checks, and it ALSO will cost you a pokemon. altaria in OU runs its special set SPECIFICLY to catch its physical set walls off guard. guarenteed kos on at least one member is also a common thing i dont even know what you are saying. its not like every game is a 6-0 fest. "mon for mon" is a common thing in the metagame, and even vs stall, losing one member is rather common. what are you even saying here.

In the second scenario is that you assume anything and everything is Illusion until proven otherwise. You know what that decision-making process looks like? Honestly, it's basically random: again, unless the enemy team has a sharp bias in its team design, any decision can be the wrong decision because fuck you the thing in front of you is an Illusion, and conversely you making a decision on the possibility that it's an Illusion can be the wrong decision because it isn't.

No RNG steps in to feed you misses and unexpected Burns, but player skill is largely ripped out of the equation, because players are incapable of making even marginally informed decisions. It's indistinguishable from "randomness caused by dice programs". It only gets worse if both sides have Illusions up: they're both making completely mis-informed decisions, with no ability to predict or account for their opponent's actions because they have no information.so what your saying, is its uncompetative because you have no indication when something is illusion or not. well, we should ban EVERYTHING this meta offers, since NOTHING is set in stone in this meta. illusion is not uncompetative like shadow tag, swagger, or moody. its not based around dice rolls, or tilting matchups in your favor, its built around suprising stuff. which is a COMMON THING IN EVERY METAGAME. and is a COMMON THING IN THIS META.

It's functionally random. Bye-bye player skill, same as any match decided by crits or misses or lucky Burns.if you seriously lose a game because one of your pokemon is dead. then really i question your teambuilding. enless you run stall, illusion should NOT determine your game, because you still have 5 other pokemon capable of revenge killing it. as much as i hate to be that guy, but if you DO run stall, and thats why your upset about this, you really just have to accept your losses. its not that i dislike stall, i LOVE a good stall match, its just this entire meta follows a similar "beat your counterS" formula, so stall REALLY has difficulty working in this meta as is.

Note, in particular, that the first definition you've provided -success or failure brought about by something other than one's actions (choices, in this case)- applies fully to having Illusion a part of Inheritance. You don't succeed or fail based on doing your best while your opponent does their best and failure on your part reflects a poor decision-making process, whether at the team level or at the match level: you succeed or fail based on how your decision-making process happens to coincide with or diverge from the Illusion's impact on the situation. If you make decision A and it happens to work in spite of the Pokemon you're facing being completely different from what you thought it was, that's luck. If you make decision B, and it happens to fail because the Pokemon you're facing is not what you thought it was, with zero ability to anticipate the possibility in a meaningful way, that's luck.

do you not know what chance means? the one guy is right, you just put words into my mouth, the official definition is "success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions." chance-"a possibility of something happening." this isnt illusion, because the illusion user has control over illusion. its not a "possibility" of illusion happening. i get what your thinking, that "illusion is chance due to it being unpredictable" but thats not what its trying to say, it means it in a "roulette" sort of way, a "nobody can predict the outcome" which is false. since the illusion user KNOWS he has illusion. it falls into the second catigory. NOT the first one.
i bolded my responses to each of your points, just so its easier for me.
 
It should also be noted that not everything can run Illusion - while Zoroarks movepool is nice, it is a bit limited. While it doesn't change a lot, it does mean you have a small indication that your opponent might have Illusion. Hazards are another way to indicate if your opponent has Illusion or not (I understand this doesn't really matter Turn 1 with an Illusion lead, but throughout the match hazards help a lot, especially since Bug / Fire types are some of the inheritor options for Illusion).

As for Protean, I just don't see how it's any more broken than the other shit in the tier.
 
I'm not sure how I can repeat my point so you get it: it's still luck-based. You don't seem to understand the definition of chance: chance is not restricted to dice rolls or the like. There's a reason situations in Pokemon matchups get described as 50/50s, even though it's based on the decisions of the players and not on Dynamic Punch's accuracy or whatever.

Answer me this: what, exactly, is the skilled player's thought process when it comes to dealing with Illusion? I've laid it out twice in this thread, and the paraphrased version is "Well, I'm fucked". You can't account for Illusion, and if you try you tilt the game toward random chaos, because you can't make any assumptions except "Well, it has to be something that's actually on their team".

If Illusion costs someone a Pokemon, that's not a lure set. A lure is designed to lure out a specific archetype or even a very specific Pokemon build and then kill or cripple it by surprise, generally at the sacrifice of overall utility at its normal job. Illusion lets nearly any Pokemon (STABs mean it's more limited than that, but it's not like there's only 2 viable Illusion users) pretend to be nearly anything, and there's zero ability to account for it. I don't know why you think Illusion is like a lure set. Illusion is vastly more flexible than that, and it doesn't exploit assumptions like "All Clefable are Unaware walls" (Which is not necessarily correct, and if you make it constantly you honestly deserve to have your assumption busted and it cause you problems in a match), it exploits the assumption "The Pokemon I am looking at is the Pokemon it appears to be". It's one giant guessing game, down to the question of whether your opponent even has Illusion at all! Luck. Blind luck.

Nor am I talking chiefly from a stall perspective. Offense is actually prone to losing two Pokemon to Illusion, the first with no warning, the second either on a later, second switch-in, or in the process of revealing what the Illusion actually is. I'm being conservative in describing Illusion's threat, because even a conservative estimate is pretty horrifying.

First thing I want to say is, I apologize if I'm off topic and bring up STABmons, I'd like you guys to know that I have no intentions to metabash any metas.

Yes, you can say "it's bad logic" all you want, but you see, this kind of thing has happened before several times, most notably in a metagame called STABmons. Inheritance and STABmons is a very different meta, but they're similar in regards that they're intended to be broken. After Diggersby ban, there has been an endless chain of suspects and bans to the point that a new rule was created to stop the neverending bans, that leads us to the new STABmons we know today. As a result, I see complaints in PS because of the new limitations, making it less fun. That's what happens if you try to fix the meta that's intended to be broken. FUN is what attracts us to play, not balance, though balance is one of the necessary things to make it fun.

If we want to suspect or ban things, we have to consider "does the metagame REALLY benefit from this ban?" You see, Protean makes us use pokes like Alakazam, Azelf, Marowak, Rampardos, Haxorus, Tornadus Therian, as well as other pokes with badly distributed stats, (Marowak and Rampardos in this case) and pokes with good stats but underwhelming offensive typing (like Azelf and Alakazam). If we ban Protean, we basically make those pokes unviable, narrowing the variety. In this case, I'd say the metagame lose more than it gains if we ban Protean, because more variety is what makes the metagame more fun.
All right, here's my blunt, simple refutation.

Illusion is unfun. Fighting it is unfun, using it is mindless, abusive, unfun.

Protean is unfun to fight. It's kind of fun to use. Sort of. Really, I mostly had fun with the Protean spam team back in the day. That was fun. Individual Protean 'mons are... not really all that fun to use.

As far as STABmons goes: I'm relieved to see the various threats go. I hated Diggersby. I hated Mega Scizor well before it got banned. They were both unfun to fight. I didn't use them because they were so good they were unfun to use, too.

Now, of course, you are free to try to throw out my personal interpretation for... whatever reason you care to name, I don't care. Problem: you throw out any reason to take your statements here seriously if you do so. You're trying to argue we should consider fun factor.

Who says I'm not?

For me, personally? I only push a ban if I feel the presence of the thing in the meta sucks the fun out of the meta. I focus on more concrete arguments, whether it's broken or not, within thread discussion, but if everyone is convinced something is broken and I'm still having fun using/fighting the thing I tend to sit those out, because fun is my primary priority.

Also? Marowak and Azelf are the only Pokemon you named I haven't seen non-Protean sets for. Everything else I've seen competent non-Protean sets. Tornadus-Therian particularly likes inheriting from Mega Pidgot, for instance. Well, I haven't seen non-Protean Rampardos, but honestly Protean Rampardos is almost completely inferior to Protean Haxorus anyway, so I don't think it's a good example.
 
I'll explain the difference between a lure and Illusion in this metagame.

Lure
  • Your opponent has a 3 of a kind
  • You have a full house
  • You act displeased
  • They think you have a bad hand and raise their bet
  • You win
Illusion in this meta
  • You're using Ganondorf in Smash
  • You start the charge up animation for Warlock Punch
  • Your opponent moves behind you
  • Suddenly you're facing the opposite way and the attack animation of your F-Smash starts
  • Your opponent learns that Warlock Punch=F-Smash to the back
  • You start the Warlock Punch animation
  • Your opponent approaches from the front
  • Warlock Punch unleashes
  • Your opponent knows to keep their distance when you use Warlock Punch
  • You start Warlock Punch
  • Your opponent stays away
  • You unleash Robin's fully charged Arc-Thunder
 
My thoughts on Illusion, seeing as I use it.
On one hand, I think it isn't really as broken as people make it out to be. Zoroark isn't exactly barren in movepool, but for physical attacks it only has SD, Low Kick, U-turn, and dark coverage/stab (sucker punch, knock off). Not terrible, but almost every Mon has something they'd rather be running. The fact that Zoroark's ability doesn't increase damage like sheer force, protean, or download really hurts as well. This means any illusioner is probably special, and definitely not a wall (because seriously).

Special attackers are better, but not that much so. Zoroark has nice options like flamethrower, focus blast, shadow ball, and night daze. However, again, most Pokemon would rather be running something else. Even mixed attackers aren't that great, as Zoroark's main draw aside from illusion is it's boosting moves, and you either have to devote two slots or not get the boost on half your moves. further, there are limits to what you can disguise as. for instance, anyone who disguises their Hoopa as an Alakazam deserves every sucker punch coming their way. If it was just that, I think it would be fine. Annoying, sure, but not enough to be banned.

However, Zoroark recently got the sludge bomb event, allowing for a strict improvement over regular Gengar. Gengar does occasionally miss it's levitate, especially with spikes/sticky web on the field, but nasty plot is huge. It might not be quite as good as sheer force Gengar, especially as it usually needs a sash to take full advantage of surprise (ex: come in, set up while they hit you with attack you are immune to, survive the hit and ko), but after a single nasty plot it beats a lot, and you don't even feel satisfied when you do it right. The opponent just was lied to by their screen.

Still, if you see a Gengar on the screen you can at least assume the possibility of an illusion, and a lot of moves that destroy Gengar have are useful on other mons (knock off anyone?). Still, I think it is generally not needed and really annoying in this Metagame. I would definitely support an Illusion! Gengar ban, but I'm not sure about illusion in general.
 
There is a move that Zoroark gets that can completely screw with anything switching in, regardless of type. This move is called Trick. This basically means that even if you successfully predict the Illusion and go into the proper answer, that mon may be crippled for the rest of the game, depending on how much it likes its item or the ability to switch moves. Add this to the fact that choice items punish bad switches even more and you have a monster.
 
There is a move that Zoroark gets that can completely screw with anything switching in, regardless of type. This move is called Trick. This basically means that even if you successfully predict the Illusion and go into the proper answer, that mon may be crippled for the rest of the game, depending on how much it likes its item or the ability to switch moves. Add this to the fact that choice items punish bad switches even more and you have a monster.
I suppose, but with that, sure you cripple one, but now you have both a useless ability and item slot. You are crippled too, although not nearly as much. And if they have a Mon that doesn't completely hate said choice item, now you are dead, and if they have a choice item, now you are useless, with them coming in for the ko/getting damage on the switch. I understand it can wreck stall, but I've never really liked trick because I can't see it's utility outside of Gothitelle.
Besides, if you come in on an opponent you can't trick, you are down a moveslot and out of stat moves.
 
Maybe this has already come up, but I'll ask it anyway: why is Illusion a total non-issue in AAA but here it ruins the metagame? If you use Illusion in Inheritance, you're limited to Zoroark's moveset. If you use it in AAA, you can use any moveset you want. Yet from what I can tell, the only real use is on Mega Pokemon so they can get a free setup pre-Mega. Obviously they're different metagames (and I don't play AAA), but I feel like logically, Illusion should be more broken in AAA, yet clearly isn't. What am I missing here?
 

bp scrub

rub a dub dub one scrub in a tub
Whats the best donor for Altaria for a fully special set? Explouds movepool seems really nice, but Noivern gives it stab Draco (not sure if that matters too much) and Roost. Thoughts?
 
Outside of the obvious candidates, I think an underrated one is Genesect

Genesect as an Altaria donor for a special set has a lot of advantages. The first one is that you trick your opponent into think you're Shift Gear right from the start thanks to Download. The other advantage is Download itself - getting a +1 SpA right before you Mega will make up for Techno Blasts BP loss. Genesect also ties for giving the best coverage with Exploud - I'd argue that Genesects is a bit better. You can also use U-Turn to pivot around.

Back to more standard ones, I would say either Flygon or Exploud. Flygon provides everything Noivern does (I think) except it also gives it Earth Power for better coverage, while Exploud has a much bigger toolbox of coverage.
 
Outside of the obvious candidates, I think an underrated one is Genesect

Genesect as an Altaria donor for a special set has a lot of advantages. The first one is that you trick your opponent into think you're Shift Gear right from the start thanks to Download. The other advantage is Download itself - getting a +1 SpA right before you Mega will make up for Techno Blasts BP loss. Genesect also ties for giving the best coverage with Exploud - I'd argue that Genesects is a bit better. You can also use U-Turn to pivot around.

Back to more standard ones, I would say either Flygon or Exploud. Flygon provides everything Noivern does (I think) except it also gives it Earth Power for better coverage, while Exploud has a much bigger toolbox of coverage.
Noivern has focus blast to hit things like levitran and ttar, something Flygon cannot accomplish, but aside from that the other options like Genesect and Exploud are probably the best donors.
 
Also worth mentioning Psychic when inheriting from Noivern since that's one of the only ways Mega Altaria can get past Mega Venusaur on a special set while also beating other Poison types. There's Hurricane too to give a more solid chance of 2HKOing without Rocks, but it doesn't have the utility of beating other Fairy resists like Psychic does and the accuracy obviously sucks.

168+ SpA Mega Altaria Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 154-182 (42.3 - 50%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Altaria Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 164-194 (45 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Boomburst + Psychic + Focus Blast is also perfect coverage outside of Victini and Delphox.

EDIT: And Aegislash and Doublade too my b
 
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I honesty think we should focus on Illusion and magic Bounce chansey before Protean. Protean is an amazing offensive tool but it's no where near as threatening as Illusion. Protean is predictable, and Illusion is exactly the opposite.

MBounce Chansey (I realize this will be a tough argument to get through) forces you to run a mold breaker or a freakishly strong physical attacker. MBounce Chansey doesn't even just get the ability, it gets WilloWisp to stop physical attackers from KOing on its weaker defense. It's a hard stop to almost all special offense and many physical and is frustrating for stall and balance to defeat because of its ability
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Whats the best donor for Altaria for a fully special set? Explouds movepool seems really nice, but Noivern gives it stab Draco (not sure if that matters too much) and Roost. Thoughts?
the most optimal for its role, i feel is nasty plot with roost from chatot. boomburst and heat wave has pretty good coverage, and stuff that are immune to heat wave cringe at the thought of a +2 boomburst.

+2 252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 156-184 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO look at this, the STRONGEST potential (used) flash fire resist, can barely manage to take +2 boomburst with it being fully specially invested. most are physical to combat physical ate. from what ive seen, pixie chatot has the most potential, gene also being another noteworthy option, but i feel like glalie does that a bit better with its slightly better stats offensively.
 
I honesty think we should focus on Illusion and magic Bounce chansey before Protean. Protean is an amazing offensive tool but it's no where near as threatening as Illusion. Protean is predictable, and Illusion is exactly the opposite.

MBounce Chansey (I realize this will be a tough argument to get through) forces you to run a mold breaker or a freakishly strong physical attacker. MBounce Chansey doesn't even just get the ability, it gets WilloWisp to stop physical attackers from KOing on its weaker defense. It's a hard stop to almost all special offense and many physical and is frustrating for stall and balance to defeat because of its ability
I sort of disagree with magic bounce Chansey. While it is annoying, it can be beat, even with some regular special attackers (although these are harder, because you do need prediction). since this is hard to believe, here is an example:
Raikou @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball

Scenario 1: Chansey is out, you come in
Nasty plot until they use taunt.
If you got off three, that's it right there. You deal about 85%, so as long as you avoid metal burst you easily win this.
If you got off three, you still 2hko, so some prediction will win you. Remember, Chansey has no passive recovery.
If you got off 1, you have to wait until taunt wears off, but then you can do it again.
The obvious problem here is that if they taunt, you are easy prey to metal burst. Not so. Porygon-Z gives you shadow ball, a wonderful attack that does exactly 0% to chansey. This is what you use if you suspect metal burst and they are at <50% health
Scenario 2: Chansey is going to come out on you (you are a special attacker)
nasty plot on the switch, and again before they taunt.
Play mind games until you get off a tbolt not immediately followed by a recover/metal burst (probably followed by a will o wisp)
win

Of course, this is risky, so it might not seem like the best choice. However, even if they do win with metal burst, that Chansey is sitting at 15% and useless. How are they going to heal it, wish passing :)?
Further, you can replace shadow ball with substitute. This allows you to win vs Chansey guarenteed, but the LO recoil+sub will kill you very quickly. Also if you mispredict a taunt, you lose. I chose this set because it beats unaware Suicune and rips large holes in unaware Cresselia, which few other setup mons do. Note Tbolt almost always does more than shadow ball, or else ice beam does- the only time to use it is vs Chansey or Hoopa (or lightningrod water types, but...)

There are other ways, too. For instance, anything knock off ruins it, as does trick; Setup Sweeper with 101 hp subs (only needed with night shade, otherwise normal subs), especially physical ones (unless foul play but that's dumb with will o wisp); aforementioned mold breaker Pokemon, and No Guard dynamic punch (Machamp/Golurk).
None of these are unviable, and a lot of things can 2hko it if it switches in on the wrong move.

It is strong, but not banworthy imo.

the most optimal for its role, i feel is nasty plot with roost from chatot. boomburst and heat wave has pretty good coverage, and stuff that are immune to heat wave cringe at the thought of a +2 boomburst.

+2 252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 156-184 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO look at this, the STRONGEST potential (used) flash fire resist, can barely manage to take +2 boomburst with it being fully specially invested. most are physical to combat physical ate. from what ive seen, pixie chatot has the most potential, gene also being another noteworthy option, but i feel like glalie does that a bit better with its slightly better stats offensively.
Try flash fire Registeel. It is stronger defensively, although it does lack Aegislash's incredible typing. Also, Aegislash can carry leftovers, so...
Not saying it isn't good, but it isn't as strong as you are suggesting.
 
I don't think Magic Bounce is ban-worthy at all. There are a lot of ways of getting around it. It's usually very passive if you have something that can take WoW, and can be shut down easily if you have a Substitute user. MSableye Chansey is completely destroyed by an opposing Magic Bounce (like TTar with Sword Dance, or Chansey itself, especially with Koff), and the Xatu version is not really better for that matter (at least it can U-Turn away if it predicts the switch). Another option is something like CM Magic Bounce Cress. I never used it myself but from what I saw it just setup all over Chansey. It's pettry predicable too, as you can usually tell its whole moveset after seeing one move (Recover/Taunt/WoW means Sableye, U-Turn/Roost means Xatu, etc.)

Anyway, you can burn it with Scald or by bouncing its own WoW, as Burn damage hurts the blob pretty badly, or just slap Koff on anything, or Trick on any special sweeper. You can also muscle past it with Poison Heal + setup (Gliscor even gets Koff to maim the potential Doublade switchin), or mixed Protean, or even Facade (which is useful in a meta where half of the stallmons run Scald). It's annoying, but far from unbeatable.
 
Chansey is not broken, I don't even know why this has been brought up. Like, come on. Out of S, A+, A and A- the only attackers chansey can take on are lati@s, gren and alakazam. A "strong physical attacker" isn't rare whatsoever in this meta and a bunch of special attacker can still take him on like heatran, gard, gengar, hoopa...

Tbh as a special wall I think goodra is better than chansey.
 
Hello just some new user here and I was wondering if set up sweepers are used enough to make Mega Banette useful when inheriting from Malamar to get priority Topsy Turvy?

Banette @ Banettite
Ability: Contrary
EVs: Something idk, maybe max spdef? its kinda bad w/ 64/75/83 defenses, maybe ev to survive something then rest into other defense but idk whats popular
Bold Nature
- Topsy-Turvy
- Protect
- Destiny Bond
- Taunt / Hypnosis

Would it be worth it using this? Topsy Turvy gives you that amazing effect vs dragon dance/nasty plot/swords dance/geomany/boosting things and kinda makes it impossible to sweep with set up moves (unless like magic bounce cm user) destiny bond is a last minute move to net kos and taunt prevents status and hypnosis is prankster sleep!
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Try flash fire Registeel. It is stronger defensively, although it does lack Aegislash's incredible typing. Also, Aegislash can carry leftovers, so...
Not saying it isn't good, but it isn't as strong as you are suggesting.
when someone uses flash fire specially defensive registeel, THEN i will calc it. lets not forget what flash fire steels are USED for in this meta. and flash fire registeel is complete trash at stopping what aegis, doublade, and skarm are all capable of stopping, since ates can easily get past registeel via eq or fighting coverage.

and even then,+2 252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
the potential to 2hko IS there. very small, but there nonetheless. but i think if you want a flash fire steel, the other three mentioned are better suited for the meta, since they can actually stop ates. which is practically the only reason to even run it in the first place barring desolate land. which still beats registeel in the long run due to earth power.

given, you probably don't want to face specially defensive registeel or aegislash anyways, since they can roar you out, or cripple you, but as i said, if your not running physically defensive, ates likely shit on your team so most people id imagine run physical rather then special.

lastly, regular malt cant even break registeel with this investment, since 252+ SpA Mega Altaria Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 138-164 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers. registeel can tank a focus blast, which is the strongest move possible it can throw at registeel. so by that logic, its better then most boomburst altaria at what it does, because regardless on circumstance, both fail to beat its main check consistantly, but nasty plot has a higher chance of breaking the check then focus blast alt does.

im not implying its some godlike set, but it IS by far, the best specially based set alt can run from what ive seen, as it has every benifit from the other sets, but with the ability to set up and wallbreak, to combat would be counters.
 
Hello just some new user here and I was wondering if set up sweepers are used enough to make Mega Banette useful when inheriting from Malamar to get priority Topsy Turvy?
No.
Unaware outclasses completely since you can actually switch on moves.
And even then, murkrow gives you prankster + haze + recovery and you don't have to run a shitty pokemon and waste your mega slot.
I'm sorry, I don't want to be rude, but this set is just really bad. If you want to run bannette mega run shadow claw + copycat or something like that. bannette's defence are so bad that even at -1 most things can still kill him.
Also a lot of set up sweepers are -atespeeder.

Also, if you're running a more balanced build, chatot gard is a fantastic pokemon to have on your team and by far the best gardevoir set I used since it's a set up sweeper that can easily take on unaware and a special pokemon that can handily take on chansey.
 
when someone uses flash fire specially defensive registeel, THEN i will calc it. lets not forget what flash fire steels are USED for in this meta. and flash fire registeel is complete trash at stopping what aegis, doublade, and skarm are all capable of stopping, since ates can easily get past registeel via eq or fighting coverage.

and even then,+2 252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
the potential to 2hko IS there. very small, but there nonetheless. but i think if you want a flash fire steel, the other three mentioned are better suited for the meta, since they can actually stop ates. which is practically the only reason to even run it in the first place barring desolate land. which still beats registeel in the long run due to earth power.

given, you probably don't want to face specially defensive registeel or aegislash anyways, since they can roar you out, or cripple you, but as i said, if your not running physically defensive, ates likely shit on your team so most people id imagine run physical rather then special.

lastly, regular malt cant even break registeel with this investment, since 252+ SpA Mega Altaria Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 138-164 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers. registeel can tank a focus blast, which is the strongest move possible it can throw at registeel. so by that logic, its better then most boomburst altaria at what it does, because regardless on circumstance, both fail to beat its main check consistantly, but nasty plot has a higher chance of breaking the check then focus blast alt does.

im not implying its some godlike set, but it IS by far, the best specially based set alt can run from what ive seen, as it has every benifit from the other sets, but with the ability to set up and wallbreak, to combat would be counters.
A- Eq does more to aegislash than registeel, and cc isn't appreciably more
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 210-248 (57.6 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 174-206 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yes, EQ does less to Aegislash than Cc does to Registeel, but it's less than variation and still guarenteed 2hko, so idk.
B- The advantages of Aegislash over Registeel is it's nifty fighting immunity (be real normal isn't hurting you), it's inability to be trapped, and it's 10 extra speed. The speed is probably meaningless.
On the other hand, you sacrifice bulk and gain a weakness to dark and ghost
Skarmory and Doublade I can concede as being better physically, Aegislash no, unless your team really struggles against contrary, lacks a spot for unaware, and still needs special bulk/is extremely afraid of being trapped. Not impossible, but...
C- Fair point on MAlt still struggling. I just was kinda annoyed that you said Aegislash was both the best the tier could send against you and 2hko'd, neither of which was true.
D- Yeah, this is the best special MAlt set I've seen, seeing as chatter is now banned.
 
Hello just some new user here and I was wondering if set up sweepers are used enough to make Mega Banette useful when inheriting from Malamar to get priority Topsy Turvy?

Banette @ Banettite
Ability: Contrary
EVs: Something idk, maybe max spdef? its kinda bad w/ 64/75/83 defenses, maybe ev to survive something then rest into other defense but idk whats popular
Bold Nature
- Topsy-Turvy
- Protect
- Destiny Bond
- Taunt / Hypnosis

Would it be worth it using this? Topsy Turvy gives you that amazing effect vs dragon dance/nasty plot/swords dance/geomany/boosting things and kinda makes it impossible to sweep with set up moves (unless like magic bounce cm user) destiny bond is a last minute move to net kos and taunt prevents status and hypnosis is prankster sleep!
Banette would rather inherit from Darkrai:

Banette @ Banetite
Ability: Bad Dreams -> Prankster
EVs: max HP/atk I guess..
Adamant

- Dark Void
- Haze
- Any two of: Phantom Force, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Spite, WoW, Drain/PuP punch, etc.

Dbond is sorely missed, but prankster sleep is too good to rely on 60% accuracy. Plus, the Malamar set you have above forces switches and...can't really capitalize on them. you could also use PrankSpore from Parasect/Breloom/Amoonguss, but Darkrai gives you the best attacking moves as well. Also, grass types are immune to spore.

Alternatively, you could inherit from Manaphy, who can give you a moveset of Heart Swap / Knock Off / U-Turn / Heal Bell or something, but i see this getting worn down pretty quickly...
 
since we're on the subject of Banette, here's a very terrible and gimmicky set (assuming this works) but fuck it

Zoroark (Banette) @ Banettite
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Copycat
- Dig / Bounce
- Toxic / Memento / Bounce

This is basically me stealing the ancient art of Dive Cats back in Gen 5. I'm not sure if the mechanics of DiveCats still works, but the basic idea is that Prankster Copycat gives Dig / Bounce priority on the turn you use it while not getting priority on the turn it hits. There are issues with this (such as you needing to use Dig / Bounce before being able to Copycat it), but that's the general idea (DiveCats used Assist instead of Copycat, but this doesn't require you to build your entire team around the set). In general you get Shadow Claw + Copycat so its not 100% gimmicks. Dig vs Bounce is simple = 100% acc vs nothing is immune to Bounce. Toxic is there because you'll probably need to Toxic your opponent to get meaninful damage from Dig / Bounce. However, if you have like TSpikes support or you want to be less gimmicky you can run Memento instead, giving something on your team a free switch-in. Finally, you can run both Dig and Bounce for maximum shenanigans. If you want to run the less gimmicky version of this just run U-Turn over Dig / Bounce and run max speed. That set is probably better than this (Illusion is both fun and topical) but its not as fun as pointlessly stalling turns.

I don't know why but Inheritance makes me want to make a bunch of gimmick sets lol
 
has anyone thought about using (m-)salamence gyarados?

haven't tested it but it seems like it could be useful for luring typical gyara answers like fighting types. was thinking something like

Gyarados @ Lum Berry/Sky Plate
Ability: Aerilate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aqua Tail
- Dragon Dance
- Frustration/Double Edge
- Earthquake/Substitute/Roost

double edge with sky plate is there as an option since it can bust through unaware cune after rocks, and ups your wallbreaking power in general but wears you down and leaves you susceptible to status. cress and doub check/counter it but the beauty is that they probably won't switch in before you've already done significant damage for fear of knock off, and can be setup bait depending on set.
 

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