Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]

Not sure if this has been mentioned here or not but this set is amazing for me:
Excadrill(toxicroak) @ Leftovers
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Taunt/ swords dance
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch

This set is probably the best answer to primordial sea and suicune. Not only that, but theres extra priority to eliminate threats mega altaria. You could use taunt to prevent mons from setting up wisps or preventing cunes from recovering. At the same time, it could function as a psuedo scizor with swords dance and bullet punch.
 
I am kinda surprised that people find illusion so broken considering in this meta you can literally truly never know what the hell to expect from a mon you face
Sure you can take into consideration the most likely set that common non creative might copy paste from rankings
or maybe that landorus is going to inherit spore from amoongus and do something completely clusterfucky you didnt expect and start sub seeding or something
you could literally give like, fuck, just go anti meta with giving most bizarre setups that counter the common sets, whenever they are as effective or not, is the other question, but like so, if you manage to actually surprise with them, ey, you will net a kill in most likely hood.

Illusion literally is just this clusterfuckiness but actually with higher success rate cause you can also fake the mon on top of it.

Sure, you can start giving the luck argument here, but really, the luck here happens to only one side; The foe not using the illusion.
So is it truly luck? Considering the user of illusion actually is the one who controls most of the outcome? Like, there is no similiar situation like confusion where its 50/50 if the foe can move and it comes down to both players not being able to make the call if the mon can move, here the control is more on illusion side, the call of "luck" goes more for the foe who isnt illusioning, they need to make a good call, its like predicting in general, but heavier.
But seriously, with the first point in mind, maybe this wasnt protean azelf you send to tank with your usual tank, and instead just got psychoboost pummeled with specs set or maybe it was illusion gengar, but question is, is the overall result still so different? You got dunked on with something unexpected.

Overall, seriously, what the fuck? Is the super standardizing really this desperately wanted?
This meta is chaotic and creative and thats giant piece of the fun IMO.

if something is broken obviously like wonderguard or parental bond, yeah, ban it. But like, seriously, slow the fuck down in trying to find something "broken" to "improve" the meta. If the brokeness isn't completely fucking obvious and you need to like, desperately dig and go into philosophy and shit just to make it look broken enough(like, why do you think Policy Review had to rethink what is broken and uncompetitive parameters at that one point? I recommend reading the topics leading to that actually, its pretty good insight, specially the uncompetitiveness discussions that so many people just love to try shovel down peoples throat to make their arguments), then sit down and think if you're actually making any favors.
Whole player base isn't super srs top 10 ladder who demand apologizes when crit happens, infact I'd be almost willing to argue that lot of other metas benefit from being a break from that them with their silly twists and some metas might've lost players due of them going away from it too much, but thats another can of worms entirely so I won't go there further.

cause like, a lot of the time when I see shit like this, it just feels like people want to find something to ban for the sake of it and then pick whatever they got rekt by that agitated them the most.
 
I needed to form an opinion on Illusion, so I made myself a team using my favorite mostly original sets from this meta game and included an illusion mon. I have earned myself the 10 spot on the ladder with 1425, and I have to say that my Illusion mon is the least useful of them all. It's a banded Tyrantitar, for strong sucker punch and knock off, and I pose as a fighting offense to draw in bulky ghosts and psychics. Sounds good right? But it's just not, as useful as I thought it would be. Maybe ghosts are better, but it really doesn't seem as good as everyone says. Tar gets one surprise kill each match, but so does my Jolteon and so does Chandelure.
 
I know I said that Illusion was uncompetitive, but after reading the OU Tiering Philosophy, I'm starting to think that Illusion doesn't fit the definition of "uncompetitive," at least by Inheritance standard. I thought there was something weird that Illusion is a non issue in AAA, but people wanted to ban in here. Why did that happen?

Why does Illusion, is deemed broken/uncompetitive in here? People said it's uncompetitive because it's unpredictable and it involves "luck" but problem is, everything involves unpredictableness here. You never know what's the opponent set until you get hit by it. Isn't that the same as Illusion? When you see Medicham, you switch in your Azumarill, expecting it to be the common Lucario set, but your Azumarill get destroyed by Leaf Blade. Then you say "ah, it inherits from Gallade." Other posibilities are, if you see Terrakion, you immediately switch your Levitate Doublade, expecting a Close Combat. Terrakion then used Close Combat. It hits, super effective. Then your Doublade dies because it's Band Scrappy.

What I'm trying to say is, Inheritance is a metagame of where everything can run almost anything, which makes them unpredictable. Then why does Illusion is an issue? It's part of the "unpredicatbleness" which is basically the main thing of Inheritance. And Jajoken is right. It's a non-issue in AAA, where it should be more broken there, why it's an issue here?
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-295895850 - Not showing illusion, but does show Gengar keeping it's coverage and allowing a sweep. Not the best opponent (by far), but still demonstrates it's continued viability.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-296166658 The garchomp staying in when it shouldn't have, and netting me a free ko
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-296171439 me removing chansey and hippodon, which would otherwise have made me lose
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-296245094 illusion sweep. power not impaired, he had no idea what was under there and thought I was cheating. There is no way to predict that, unless you obsessicely track damage inflicted
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-296277867 stomped all over this guy

In these battles, it won me when I should have lost, or at least was a major player in my team, screwing over the opponent. However, I'm not sure that another teamate, like protean Azelf, couldn't have done the same. I'd still like it banned, if only because it removes a major part of gameplay (making proper choices), but it probably isn't broken.
 
Just wanted to give my two cents on illusion and protean.
For me, illusion has been kind of a hit and miss. I created a team with illusion hoopa and, while it does occasionally suprise people, the only real function it has is to cripple stall and get suprise kills. For the most part, its stuck with limited coverage and an ability that won't increase its damage output(unless you manage to np on a switchin). I've been using illusion and being playing against it as well and I can't really say its uncompetative. Sure a surprise gengar is going to be annoying but your team should be able to take it on.

On the other hand, I find protean incredibly broken. This metagame is supposed to be unpredictable, but playing against stab powered priority physical moves and high bp special attacks is just unfair to me. On one hand it does add variation to the gamemode, but if the protean mon has the right coverage, it can just run through your team. In other words, its just not fun to play against. I don't want to worry about being hit with a stab fake out that none of my mons can really take a hit from or having to worry about how I can hit the protean mon supereffectively after it hits me with a move next turn. Because of that, the only thing I think should be banned is protean
 
Just wanted to give my two cents on illusion and protean.
For me, illusion has been kind of a hit and miss. I created a team with illusion hoopa and, while it does occasionally suprise people, the only real function it has is to cripple stall and get suprise kills. For the most part, its stuck with limited coverage and an ability that won't increase its damage output(unless you manage to np on a switchin). I've been using illusion and being playing against it as well and I can't really say its uncompetative. Sure a surprise gengar is going to be annoying but your team should be able to take it on.

On the other hand, I find protean incredibly broken. This metagame is supposed to be unpredictable, but playing against stab powered priority physical moves and high bp special attacks is just unfair to me. On one hand it does add variation to the gamemode, but if the protean mon has the right coverage, it can just run through your team. In other words, its just not fun to play against. I don't want to worry about being hit with a stab fake out that none of my mons can really take a hit from or having to worry about how I can hit the protean mon supereffectively after it hits me with a move next turn. Because of that, the only thing I think should be banned is protean
This is what I end up using illusion for the most, sadly. A Gengar, disguised as Regirock, attracts all kinds of fighting attacks
 

dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
Illusion is a very good ability in inheritance, but I believe it should be suspected due to the fact it detracts hugely from stalls effectiveness in inh, because it is completely unexpected and the main donor (zoroark because zorua has worser movepool) has a wide variety of coverage+ nasty plot allowing it to break stall even easier.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-296562852
Illusion vs stall, in just several turns I was able to turn the match around simply due to the fact that I had an illusion. Please suspect this snaq.
Well, this is an unfortunate coincidence, but idk if you noticed, but Proteans standard set 6-0s your opponent with rocks.

252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Kyurem Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kingdra: 156-185 (44 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 Atk Life Orb Protean Kyurem Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 351-416 (54.6 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Kyurem Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 393-463 (92.9 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

4 Atk Life Orb Protean Kyurem Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 182-218 (47.1 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Kyurem Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 507-595 (128.6 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Kyurem Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 374-439 (92.5 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So there we go, if you had Protean on your team you could've easily won this match. Take what you want from that.
 
Neither Chansey or Hearten had intimidate, Kyurem can easily switch out?
That wouldn't quite be a 6-0... What if it's a scarf protean Heatran? That just used Extrasensory to resist the drain punch. Just because it can be a bulky set, doesn't mean it requires it in order to kill you.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
Anyways, I don't think Illusion is broken, I do think Protean is broken. In AAA everything can have Illusion as well, but it wasn't banned there. But Protean was however, and Illusion is worse here than it is in AAA. While Protean is arguable better, with its expansive movepool.
 

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AAA Illusion vs Inheritance Illusion
The power level of AAA is much lower. If something is carrying Illusion pretending to be some other Pokemon, you're not dealing with "Gengar is actually Banded Knock Off Tyranitar", because Tyranitar can't get Knock Off. Nor is Gengar pretending to be Banded Hustle Extreme Speed Ursaring, because that's not a thing in AAA. In general, in AAA mistakes are generally easier to recover from, because instead of the best moves being found on the most powerful Pokemon, you get... Standard, but with access to arbitrary Abilities, with pretty much any Ability that's 50% or more of a damage increase being either restricted to meh moves or banned outright, so really the power level isn't that much higher than in Standard. Certainly you don't have to fear random Quiver Dancers, random Tail Glowers, random Dragon Dancers...

As such, Illusion in AAA isn't really all that terrifying. If you assume it's an Illusion and it isn't... probably you're fine anyway, because the non-Illusions just aren't "you gave it one turn and now you're screwed". Nor is "Nasty Plot Illusion Gengar" even a thing in AAA -Gengar doesn't get boosting. In fact, in Standard/AAA, here's all the Pokemon in the entire game that have 120 Special Attack or more and Nasty Plot. (ie instant +2 to Special Attack)

Azelf, Beheeyem, Darkrai, Deoxys, Hoopa, Houndoom-Mega, Lucario-Mega, Porygon-Z, Thundurus

So, two Megas (One of which is banned), two Ubers aside from the Uber Mega, Hoopa, Thundurus, Azelf, Beeheeyem, and Porygon-Z. Beeheeyem is almost never used for anything and is hilariously slow, so it's not exactly going to 6-0 your team after one turn of setup. Porygon-Z is held back by its STAB being awful as an attacking type. Azelf is... painfully fragile, and still largely used for roles like suicide lead.

Thundurus's movepool has deep flaws, and in particular it has nothing for Magic Bounce Chansey if it's running Illusion. If I generously assume it's Thundurus-Therian, we get...

+6 252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 324-382 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252 SpA Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 576-678 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

... so basically if you're stupid enough to let Illusion Thundurus-Therian get three turns to setup for free, which Illusion can't reliably buy it, Chansey is no longer a useful check to it. That's something, but Thundurus really likes a number of options a lot more for their utility against other things, and Thundurus-Therian isn't even that fast anyway.

So, I guess maybe Hoopa-Confined running Illusion might be a terror in AAA? It does have innate Psyshock, letting it beat Special walls. Even so, that would be a motive to ban Hoopa-Confined, not Illusion, in AAA.

Here, in Inheritance, anything can be an Illusion running Nasty Plot, and it can have any value of Special Attack all the way up to the highest legal Pokemon in the game. Gengar has 130 Special Attack, suddenly backed by Nasty Plot. You can't get that in AAA, full stop, and Adaptability is not remotely equivalent. (Oh, and you can't be Illusion+Adaptability anyway)

Or... it can be Swords Dance and Physical, again with monstrous Attack. That Gengar is actually Sucker Punch Swords Dance Tyranitar, and the one turn you messed up on has ensured it gets at least one KO before you force it out or kill it.

Context matters. Illusion per se can be spread around just as readily in AAA as in Inheritance... but in Inheritance it brings with it a movepool that includes powerful boosting moves on both ends of the spectrum, decent attacking moves (Again, on both ends of the spectrum), and Trick. Not so in AAA. Even if it did do all that in AAA, because magic, the punishment for thinking something is an Illusion when it's not is just... less. You will never be surprised by a Tail Glow in AAA, unless you can't be bothered to keep track of what Pokemon can learn Tail Glow in Standard. In Inheritance you get powerful moves on powerful Pokemon with powerful boosting, all at once, with no guarantee of a warning beforehand. (Geomancy Power Herb at least has the good grace to announce itself with Fairy Aura. Tail Glow and Belly Drum provide no such warning) Illusion instantly makes all these powerful setup sweepers more threatening, by virtue of you being unable to assume you're not looking at an Illusion instead!

Thinking of it as "Illusion in AAA and Illusion in Inheritance" is completely missing that it's "Illusion in AAA, inheriting from Zoroark in Inheritance".

tl;dr version: Comparing inheriting from Zoroark in Inheritance to taking Illusion in AAA is a specious argument that completely ignores how radically different the choice being made is between the two metas and the differences in the context of each meta. They are not equivalent.

Everybody who is thinking the comparison works and we can use Illusion's relevance in AAA as a basis for making a decision in Inheritance is making a mistake. For that matter, an argument like "Protean was banned in AAA, we should ban it in Inheritance" is also specious.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
okay. let me finish this fiasco once and for all. illusion will not be suspected. and neither will protean, neither fall into the term "uncompetative" that OU uses, and neither is broken to the scale that inheritance deems broken. seriously. if we banned shit like illusion and protean, we might as well just ban the rest of the meta too. me and snaq have both talked about this, and as far as i know, he agrees that theres going to be no suspect for the two. illusion is not uncompetative because it falls into a "chance" catigory that "uncompetative" DOESN'T CONSIDER. and protean is not broken to the extent of inh banworthy. stall NATURALLY has problems in this meta. and by banning these two, DOESNT help stall one bit, it will STILL be just as hard to use.

im just going to bold this, so people understand: Illusion and protean will not be suspected.
 

Snaquaza

KACAW
is a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
okay. let me finish this fiasco once and for all. illusion will not be suspected. and neither will protean, neither fall into the term "uncompetative" that OU uses, and neither is broken to the scale that inheritance deems broken. seriously. if we banned shit like illusion and protean, we might as well just ban the rest of the meta too. me and snaq have both talked about this, and as far as i know, he agrees that theres going to be no suspect for the two. illusion is not uncompetative because it falls into a "chance" catigory that "uncompetative" DOESN'T CONSIDER. and protean is not broken to the extent of inh banworthy. stall NATURALLY has problems in this meta. and by banning these two, DOESNT help stall one bit, it will STILL be just as hard to use.

im just going to bold this, so people understand: Illusion and protean will not be suspected.
If you want to argue about this, please don't do it in this thread for now to give room for other discussions. PM me on Pokemon Showdown. If you have other arguments, maybe I'll agree and give a suspect test, but right now it'd feel like mindless banning.
 
Saying that illusion isn't uncompetitive because it uses a definition of chance not recognized by smogon is like saying stag isn't uncompetitive.
As far as I'm aware uncompetitivity isn't about rng but rather taking player skill out of the equation. Stag prevented players from reacting properly to situations by force. Illusion does it via misinformation. It's similar to using transform to divine that your opponent has truant to get surprised by them not having truant.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Saying that illusion isn't uncompetitive because it uses a definition of chance not recognized by smogon is like saying stag isn't uncompetitive.
As far as I'm aware uncompetitivity isn't about rng but rather taking player skill out of the equation. Stag prevented players from reacting properly to situations by force. Illusion does it via misinformation. It's similar to using transform to divine that your opponent has truant to get surprised by them not having truant.
stag isnt uncompetative. its broken. by OU's definition of broken vs uncompetitive.

uncompetitive:
II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) This can be match up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.
B.) This can be external factors; think endless battle clause, where the determining factor becomes internet connection over playing skill.
C.) This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, SwagPlay, Evasion, or Moody, all of which turn the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.
D.) Note uncompetitive elements are almost always present in the battling skill aspect; they will, however, be present in the team building aspect should we allow them in the sense of having to rely on excessively specific counters (such as loading teams with Sturdy or Keen Eye Pokemon and the like).

none of these apply to illusion or shadow tag. you can still make skillful plays with illusion and the illusionee still has control.

broken:
IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken, yet deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent
A.) These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually, but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.
1.) We haven't really had an example of an unhealthy ban yet, but a potential example is Stealth Rock; it certainly is on the mind of every team building experience and games are often steeped in Stealth Rock strategy. Whether or not this adds up to limiting team building skill or battling skill is part of the conversation to be had.
2.) One important thing to note with this is that distribution both matters (in the case of large distributions) and doesn't matter (in the case of low distributions).
a.) If Stealth Rock or Scald weren't so common, they probably would not be as controversial issues as they are.
b.) However, just because something isn't highly distributed, like Shadow Tag, doesn't mean it isn't unhealthy. Some tried to state that Shadow Tag wouldn't be broken on a 10/10/10/10/10/10 BST mon, but this is the wrong way to look at it.
c.) Things aren't broken (or unhealthy or uncompetitive) only in vacuums; they can contribute to the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. Instead, consider how potentially broken elements would be with averagedistribution on average BST Pokemon. If Shadow Tag was on, let's say 4-5 OU potential Pokemon as opposed to 1-2 and the average BSTs were something like 80/80/80/80/80/80, would it be broken?The take away from this is to not ignore distribution, but if lowly distributed, to assume how the element would take away from team building or battling skill if it was distributed to average pokemon in an average quantity.(Yes, we will provide average statistics)
B.) This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good to great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity.
1.) The Mega-Metagross suspect could be said to fall under this umbrella; Mega-Metagross wasn't really broken, but it was the best Pokemon in a game with far too many good to great threats. It was felt that, for the sake of metagame health, we should seek to reduce the number of these threats (however, you'll note the community voted to keep it in the tier).
C.) This is the most controversial and subjective one, and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The OU Council will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player.
D.) When trying to argue a particular element's suspect status, please avoid this category unless absolutely necessary. This is a last ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first. We are coming to a point in the generations where the number of threats is close to overwhelming, so we may touch upon this more often, but please try to focus on uncompetitive and broken first.

this even specifically mentions shadow tag being broken. illusion falls into "unhealthy" in this case, so illusion is broken. NOT uncompetitive, and by Inheritance's level of "unhealthy" illusion is no more unhealthy then everything else in this meta.

but seriously, listen to snaq. stop. pm him if you have problems.
 
Saying inheriting from Zoroark is "not any worse than the rest of the meta" (Implied to be in terms of unpredictability) is absurd: it's very existence makes the entire meta less predictable, even in matches it's not actually present in. That's ridiculous, that you can lose a match/'mon because oh god what if this is an Illusion and they don't even have a Zoroark inheritor on their team!

And, again, you know the type combination and base stats of the Pokemon you're looking at... unless it's an Illusion. Illusion is not equivalent to "Well, Gengar might be inheriting from Nidoking, or it might be inheriting from Kecleon, or..." If you remove Illusion from the equation, you know the Gengar in front of you is fast, fragile (especially Physically), strongly oriented toward Special attacking/utterly incompetent at Physical attacking, and is a Ghost/Poison type. (Weak to Psychic period, weak to Mold Breaker Earthquake period, weak to Dark and Ghost moves period, immune to Toxic, immune to Normal and Fighting moves, etc)

Oh wait, it's Tyranitar. nvm, everything except "weak to Mold Breaker Earthquake" is a lie.

The only other inheritor possibility that comes close to Illusion's ability to damage the effectiveness of prediction based on the information in front of you is Protean, and it only changes typing/STAB. (And Protean can only destroy your offensively inclined type-based decision's [eg hit Azelf with Shadow Sneak] validity if they go first, either through outspeeding or use of priority or both) Stat-based decisions will never let you down just because of Protean. (Haxorus is not going to spring a horrifically lethal Special attack with its pethetic 60 base Special Attack just because it has Protean)

II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
Emphasis mine.

This exactly describes Illusion's effect on the meta... again, even in matches it's not actually present in. Any choice made out of the fear of Illusion is essentially a completely random choice, or so close that the skill factor is overwhelmed by the sheer unpredictability factor. This cuts both ways: if player A loses because he went oh god, what if Illusion and made a nigh-random choice, that's not losing because of skill factor. If player B fails to anticipate player A's nigh-random choice based on oh god, what if Illusion and that costs player B the match, well... that's also player B having a loss unrelated to skill factor.

And, again, this can be happening when neither player has Illusion on their team.

Why on earth are you trying to say "we won't suspect Illusion because it doesn't fit this definition"? It does! It fits it to a T! It fits it better than most things that have already been banned on the basis of this definition! It fits the definition so strongly it can influences things uncompetitively even when not actually used by players in a match!

I'm seriously boggling at this approach to defending Illusion being retained.

If you want to argue about this, please don't do it in this thread for now to give room for other discussions. PM me on Pokemon Showdown. If you have other arguments, maybe I'll agree and give a suspect test, but right now it'd feel like mindless banning.
... the Illusion discussion slowed down and the thread didn't pick up. I don't think Illusion discussion is dominating the thread by virtue of shoving aside other discussion. I'm also getting annoyed that most/all of the arguments to not ban Illusion have nothing to do with whether it's ban-worthy and everything with trying to argue semantics or claim that the meta is fundamentally unpredictable and therefore there's nothing special about Illusion, never mind that it's radically more unpredictable than literally any other choice and directly makes everything less predictable just by existing. Tyranitar is in front of you: it's not an Illusion. If Illusion is a thing, you don't actually know that it's Tyranitar in front of you, in spite of not carrying Illusion itself. Non-Illusion builds are, themselves, less predictable by virtue of Illusion existing. This goes way beyond "Well, Tyranitar can run a variety of sets" when you can't even assume you're actually looking at a Tyranitar, and assuming you aren't can itself cause problems.

(Part of what I'm saying being: if Illusion just told you something like "There's an Illusion in front of you", instead of convincing you that you're looking at a specific Pokemon, it would be difficult to predict, but it wouldn't cause non-Illusion sets to, themselves, directly benefit from the fact that Illusion exists somewhere out there)
 
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OM room

Cheers
is a Battle Simulator Moderator
If you want to argue about this, please don't do it in this thread for now to give room for other discussions. PM me on Pokemon Showdown. If you have other arguments, maybe I'll agree and give a suspect test, but right now it'd feel like mindless banning.
Saying inheriting from Zoroark is "not any worse than the rest of the meta" (Implied to be in terms of unpredictability) is absurd: it's very existence makes the entire meta less predictable, even in matches it's not actually present in. That's ridiculous, that you can lose a match/'mon because oh god what if this is an Illusion and they don't even have a Zoroark inheritor on their team!

And, again, you know the type combination and base stats of the Pokemon you're looking at... unless it's an Illusion. Illusion is not equivalent to "Well, Gengar might be inheriting from Nidoking, or it might be inheriting from Kecleon, or..." If you remove Illusion from the equation, you know the Gengar in front of you is fast, fragile (especially Physically), strongly oriented toward Special attacking/utterly incompetent at Physical attacking, and is a Ghost/Poison type. (Weak to Psychic period, weak to Mold Breaker Earthquake period, weak to Dark and Ghost moves period, immune to Toxic, immune to Normal and Fighting moves, etc)

Oh wait, it's Tyranitar. nvm, everything except "weak to Mold Breaker Earthquake" is a lie.

The only other inheritor possibility that comes close to Illusion's ability to damage the effectiveness of prediction based on the information in front of you is Protean, and it only changes typing/STAB. (And Protean can only destroy your offensively inclined type-based decision's [eg hit Azelf with Shadow Sneak] validity if they go first, either through outspeeding or use of priority or both) Stat-based decisions will never let you down just because of Protean. (Haxorus is not going to spring a horrifically lethal Special attack with its pethetic 60 base Special Attack just because it has Protean)



Emphasis mine.

This exactly describes Illusion's effect on the meta... again, even in matches it's not actually present in. Any choice made out of the fear of Illusion is essentially a completely random choice, or so close that the skill factor is overwhelmed by the sheer unpredictability factor. This cuts both ways: if player A loses because he went oh god, what if Illusion and made a nigh-random choice, that's not losing because of skill factor. If player B fails to anticipate player A's nigh-random choice based on oh god, what if Illusion and that costs player B the match, well... that's also player B having a loss unrelated to skill factor.

And, again, this can be happening when neither player has Illusion on their team.

Why on earth are you trying to say "we won't suspect Illusion because it doesn't fit this definition"? It does! It fits it to a T! It fits it better than most things that have already been banned on the basis of this definition! It fits the definition so strongly it can influences things uncompetitively even when not actually used by players in a match!

I'm seriously boggling at this approach to defending Illusion being retained.



... the Illusion discussion slowed down and the thread didn't pick up. I don't think Illusion discussion is dominating the thread by virtue of shoving aside other discussion. I'm also getting annoyed that most/all of the arguments to not ban Illusion have nothing to do with whether it's ban-worthy and everything with trying to argue semantics or claim that the meta is fundamentally unpredictable and therefore there's nothing special about Illusion, never mind that it's radically more unpredictable than literally any other choice and directly makes everything less predictable just by existing. Tyranitar is in front of you: it's not an Illusion. If Illusion is a thing, you don't actually know that it's Tyranitar in front of you. Non-Illusion builds are, themselves, less predictable by virtue of Illusion existing. This goes way beyond "Well, Tyranitar can run a variety of sets" when you can't even assume you're actually looking at a Tyranitar, and assuming you aren't can itself cause problems.

(Part of what I'm saying being: if Illusion just hid what Pokemon was in front of you, instead of convincing you that you're looking at a specific Pokemon, it would be difficult to predict, but it wouldn't cause non-Illusion sets to, themselves, directly benefit from the fact that Illusion exists somewhere out there)
I-i thought this was over...
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-296562852
Illusion vs stall, in just several turns I was able to turn the match around simply due to the fact that I had an illusion. Please suspect this snaq.
Hey look! That's me!

So, I know we shouldn't be talking about Illusion anymore, but because I still see a conversation going on about it, I guess I'll just explain how the battle in the replay went from my side.

So, I pretty much figured out the Gengar was Illusion from the preview and knew I had to watch out for it. At one point AA did a lot of predict-switches. This made me fear the Illusion popping up more and more while turns went by. So, at one point he switches his 'Ursaring' in on my M-Slowbro while I switch Slowbro out into Kingdra. Because he was making a lot of double-switches I didn't really think anything of him switching in Ursaring on my Slowbro. I switched in my MegaBro as it can easily wall Ursaring and I could set up SR in the process. But hey? Ursaring is not Ursaring and now my ursaring counter is dead. At that point the battle shifted and I had to really on Suicune now to wall Ursaring, which is pretty shakey. But hey, he does it again, byebye Suicune and while I managed to force Ursaring out a few times after that, (the real one), I didn't have anything to wall it anymore and Ursaring killed my remaining mons.

So, that's that, imo Illusion is way too unpredictable for stall to handle and it should be suspected imo.
 
Saying inheriting from Zoroark is "not any worse than the rest of the meta" (Implied to be in terms of unpredictability) is absurd: it's very existence makes the entire meta less predictable, even in matches it's not actually present in. That's ridiculous, that you can lose a match/'mon because oh god what if this is an Illusion and they don't even have a Zoroark inheritor on their team!

And, again, you know the type combination and base stats of the Pokemon you're looking at... unless it's an Illusion. Illusion is not equivalent to "Well, Gengar might be inheriting from Nidoking, or it might be inheriting from Kecleon, or..." If you remove Illusion from the equation, you know the Gengar in front of you is fast, fragile (especially Physically), strongly oriented toward Special attacking/utterly incompetent at Physical attacking, and is a Ghost/Poison type. (Weak to Psychic period, weak to Mold Breaker Earthquake period, weak to Dark and Ghost moves period, immune to Toxic, immune to Normal and Fighting moves, etc)

Oh wait, it's Tyranitar. nvm, everything except "weak to Mold Breaker Earthquake" is a lie.

The only other inheritor possibility that comes close to Illusion's ability to damage the effectiveness of prediction based on the information in front of you is Protean, and it only changes typing/STAB. (And Protean can only destroy your offensively inclined type-based decision's [eg hit Azelf with Shadow Sneak] validity if they go first, either through outspeeding or use of priority or both) Stat-based decisions will never let you down just because of Protean. (Haxorus is not going to spring a horrifically lethal Special attack with its pethetic 60 base Special Attack just because it has Protean)



Emphasis mine.

This exactly describes Illusion's effect on the meta... again, even in matches it's not actually present in. Any choice made out of the fear of Illusion is essentially a completely random choice, or so close that the skill factor is overwhelmed by the sheer unpredictability factor. This cuts both ways: if player A loses because he went oh god, what if Illusion and made a nigh-random choice, that's not losing because of skill factor. If player B fails to anticipate player A's nigh-random choice based on oh god, what if Illusion and that costs player B the match, well... that's also player B having a loss unrelated to skill factor.

And, again, this can be happening when neither player has Illusion on their team.

Why on earth are you trying to say "we won't suspect Illusion because it doesn't fit this definition"? It does! It fits it to a T! It fits it better than most things that have already been banned on the basis of this definition! It fits the definition so strongly it can influences things uncompetitively even when not actually used by players in a match!

I'm seriously boggling at this approach to defending Illusion being retained.



... the Illusion discussion slowed down and the thread didn't pick up. I don't think Illusion discussion is dominating the thread by virtue of shoving aside other discussion. I'm also getting annoyed that most/all of the arguments to not ban Illusion have nothing to do with whether it's ban-worthy and everything with trying to argue semantics or claim that the meta is fundamentally unpredictable and therefore there's nothing special about Illusion, never mind that it's radically more unpredictable than literally any other choice and directly makes everything less predictable just by existing. Tyranitar is in front of you: it's not an Illusion. If Illusion is a thing, you don't actually know that it's Tyranitar in front of you, in spite of not carrying Illusion itself. Non-Illusion builds are, themselves, less predictable by virtue of Illusion existing. This goes way beyond "Well, Tyranitar can run a variety of sets" when you can't even assume you're actually looking at a Tyranitar, and assuming you aren't can itself cause problems.

(Part of what I'm saying being: if Illusion just told you something like "There's an Illusion in front of you", instead of convincing you that you're looking at a specific Pokemon, it would be difficult to predict, but it wouldn't cause non-Illusion sets to, themselves, directly benefit from the fact that Illusion exists somewhere out there)
This is inheritance. I can take your argument and apply it to a large number of things. Illusion is just ironically the most apparent of these. Oh god what if that's sap sipper swampert, or shell smash swampert or flash fire etc etc. There are plenty of moves and abilities that change the defining weaknesses and capabilities of a pokemon. With these come restrictions of the inherited set. Zoroak has its own moveset and in fact as long as the imposter doesn't lead health differences can give it away. Even close attention to switches can reveal it if you understand how ordering works. The argument of not knowing regardless of whether or not it's in the match is literally the meta. Anything can have anything.
 

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