Pokémon Kangaskhan

[Olly]

In pre-Pokebank OU I run:
Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Crunch
- Power-Up Punch
- Sucker Punch

Right now it feels like everyone is running some kind of ghost as their counter and you can beat every one of them with Crunch. Gengar can come in after you've beaten something. Skarmory can phase you. Aegislash can play mind games with this set, but no one really brings Aegislash into Kangaskhan because they think you're running Earthquake. The rest is just rare stuff.

I really don't miss Earthquake. Most steel types are either immune to Earthquake, only take neutral from Earthquake or carrying a Balloon. The main down side to the set is you have no non-contact move to avoid damage from the Iron Barbs/Rough Skin and Rocky Helmet combo that some people are using.

 

[newtonja]

Either way, Jolly MKang's PuP -> +2 Return deals a minimum of 50%. Skarm can only phaze him once, he will die on the second attempt.

Only one thing, he doesn't have the boost anymore so it does less, and if you whirl wind into a physical attacker you can roost, true though that it has a hard time doing that. that why sableye is in my opinion the best counter to any of kangs sets

 

[nyczxjay]

The only way to reliably beat it is to burn/toxic it and go to a ghost, but that's all out the window if the user carries Crunch>Sucker Punch. And I guess Skarm can phaze it out but one on one, I think Kang has Skarm beat. Maybe I'm going about taking out Kang all wrong. Does this thing have a hard counter?

 

[newtonja]

The only way to reliably beat it is to burn/toxic it and go to a ghost, but that's all out the window if the user carries Crunch>Sucker Punch. And I guess Skarm can phaze it out but one on one, I think Kang has Skarm beat. Maybe I'm going about taking out Kang all wrong. Does this thing have a hard counter?

Sableye is a good place to start. Also remember, this thing suffers from four move slot syndrome so certain cores are a good way to defeat him like jellicent and skarmory combo

 

[RockStarFish]

The only way to reliably beat it is to burn/toxic it and go to a ghost, but that's all out the window if the user carries Crunch>Sucker Punch. And I guess Skarm can phaze it out but one on one, I think Kang has Skarm beat. Maybe I'm going about taking out Kang all wrong. Does this thing have a hard counter?

Max physical bulk Sableye is probably your best bet;

252 Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 138-163 (45.39 - 53.61%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk burned Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 69-81 (22.69 - 26.64%) -- possible 5HKO
0- Atk Sableye Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 153-180 (43.46 - 51.13%) -- 4.69% chance to 2HKO

Sableye can easily swap into MegaKhan's Earthquake, cripple it Will-O-Wisp, survive the second Earthquake, then 2HKO it through Foul Play and burn damage while Recovering off whatever the burned MegaKhan throws at it.

 

[Quaetrix]

Actually the only reliable way to deal with M-Khan aside from its 'counters' (which heavily depend on M-Khan moveset) is to throw everything you got at him hoping that you'll trade 1-1.

M-Khan is even more annoying in well-balanced team because when it is put as a lead it might surprise you and force you to switch which gives M-Khan the turn to set up.

Meaning that if you have no counter you'll at the very least lose 1 or 2 pokemon because this beast actually destroys physical walls (+2 Return crushes absolutely anything).

 

[RockStarFish]

What this does for me is confirm my belief that MegKang is broken and that Kangaskhanite needs to be banned. I daresay even more so than Mega Gengar (which has actually not been too difficult to handle).

The big problem with Mega Kangaskhan is that due to how powerful Return is, the only possible counters are going to be Rock, Steel, or Ghost types. But Rock and Steel-types are cleaned up by Earthquake, and Ghosts are wrecked by Sucker Punch unless they use a status move first, or Crunch if MegaKhan's forgoing priority.

Even Zygarde, one of the most physically bulky Pokémon out there, stands a chance of being 2HKOed by Power-Up Punch into Return, even with max physical bulk. And it can't OHKO Kangaskhan in return; Zygarde that can survive PuP -> Return can only do 45% back with Outrage.

Skarmory does a fantastic job of tanking hits and forcing it out, but it can't beat Kangaskhan; it can only delay it.

Mismagius is almost a perfect counter to MegaKhan, and variants that don't run Crunch can't touch it since Mismagius outspeeds and cripples with Will-O-Wisp, and is immune to Return, Fake Out, Body Slam, Earthquake, Power-Up Punch and Sucker Punch. It can then set up in MegaKhan's face while waiting for burn to kill it.

But MegaKhan that carry Crunch can (albeit rarely) OHKO physically defensive Mismagius in the switch-in with correct prediction, and physically defensive Mismagius lack the speed investment to outspeed MegaKhan;

252 Atk Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 236 HP / 176+ Def Mismagius: 272-322 (85 - 100.62%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

As it is, physically defensive Sableye is MegaKhan's only complete counter, because it's the only Pokémon that can boast the ability to always beat every MegaKhan if it switches in the moment MegaKhan hits the field.

That being said, that's still more counters than Gen V's Salamence and Hydreigon. Combined.

 

[Yellow Tokiwa]

T
Mismagius is almost a perfect counter to MegaKhan, and variants that don't run Crunch can't touch it since Mismagius outspeeds and cripples with Will-O-Wisp, and is immune to Return, Fake Out, Body Slam, Earthquake, Power-Up Punch and Sucker Punch. It can then set up in MegaKhan's face while waiting for burn to kill it.

I don't think that running mismagius is really that good, because if your opponent does not run Mega Khan, than you have dead weight on your hands, not to mention that mismagius is pursuit-weak.

Sableye can easily swap into MegaKhan's Earthquake, cripple it Will-O-Wisp, survive the second Earthquake, then 2HKO it through Foul Play and burn damage while Recovering off whatever the burned MegaKhan throws at it.

however, this comes to be a problem: burning it (i missed Will-o-wisp 4 times in a row...~)... With fairies this gen, Sableye will constantly be forced to switch out as the fairies are SE and can heal any potential burns with Heal Bell, as the main fairies i see are Sylvie and Florges.

 

[Silver Scrapes]

Through aggresive Theorymonning and Calcing, I have determined that Substitue MegaZam can possibly troll MegaKhan.

MegaZam can Trace Parental Bond and Substitute to avoid being swiftly ruined by Sucker Punch, and second turn, MegaZam can launch his attack. He still has to take a Sucker Punch, though. The parent's will break the Sub, but the second, the .5x attack from the kid, will deal at least 65% and and most 78%.

78% is still enough to OHKO MegaZam after a Sub, but that's a pretty great chance of survival. If MegaZam does survive, two Psychics in one turn will easily down MegaKhan, and indeed probably everything else that exists in this universe.

Still, it's extremely situational and I don't recommend actually trying it seriously.

 

[RockStarFish]

Through aggresive Theorymonning and Calcing, I have determined that Substitue MegaZam can possibly troll MegaKhan.

MegaZam can Trace Parental Bond and Substitute to avoid being swiftly ruined by Sucker Punch, and second turn, MegaZam can launch his attack. He still has to take a Sucker Punch, though. The parent's will break the Sub, but the second, the .5x attack from the kid, will deal at least 65% and and most 78%.

78% is still enough to OHKO MegaZam after a Sub, but that's a pretty great chance of survival. If MegaZam does survive, two Psychics in one turn will easily down MegaKhan, and indeed probably everything else that exists in this universe.

Still, it's extremely situational and I don't recommend actually trying it seriously.

252 SpA Parental Bond Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 276-325 (78.4 - 92.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Parental Bond Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 328-386 (93.18 - 109.65%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

Game theory tells us that the best move for Mega Kangaskhan to use against Mega Alakazam is not Sucker Punch, but Return, because Return still OHKOs if Alakazam uses any move other than Substitute, and breaks the Sub and deals an average of 50% to Mega Alakazam with the second hit, which leaves MegaZam unable to use Substitute the next turn, at which point MegaKhan uses Sucker Punch and kills it.

1st hit: 252 Atk Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 231-273 (91.66 - 108.33%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
2nd hit: 252 Atk Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 117-138 (46.42 - 54.76%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO

Also, after factoring in Focus Blast's accuracy, Focus Blast is only a 60% to OHKO MegaKhan.

So I'll second that recommendation of don't try it.

 

[Silver Scrapes]

Game theory tells us that the best move for Mega Kangaskhan to use against Mega Alakazam is not Sucker Punch, but Return, because Return still OHKOs if Alakazam uses any move other than Substitute, and breaks the Sub and deals an average of 50% to Mega Alakazam with the second hit, which leaves MegaZam unable to use Substitute the next turn, at which point MegaKhan uses Sucker Punch and kills it.

Of course, from here I could argue that most MegaZams wouldn't dream of using Sub most of the time, it's far more likely that MegaKhan will use Sucker Punch anyway since it's slower, etc, etc, but that gets away from Game Theory and more into How Smart is Your Opponent?

 

[Iodic Acid]

Zam has the same problem as Gengar and Mismagius, in that they get countered by any Kangaskhan running Crunch. I think we've already established that plenty of things can beat Kangaskhan that don't run X (where X is Crunch, Sucker Punch, Earthquake, PuP, or possibly Fire Punch?). The issue is that all of them except for Sableye get wrecked by X. Sableye seems like a solid counter though.

Edit: Or just plain ol' Return works too, apparently.

 

[Ryolain]

Only one thing, he doesn't have the boost anymore so it does less, and if you whirl wind into a physical attacker you can roost, true though that it has a hard time doing that. that why sableye is in my opinion the best counter to any of kangs sets

You use PuP when Skarm switches in and then you always get to hit it with +2 Return before you get phazed out due to Whirlwind's negative priority. So if MKang gets back in at some point, Skarm won't be able to switch in again, obviously assuming Skarm hasn't Roosted etc etc and then we get into Theorymon. My point is that Skarm is annoying to MKang but if he's your only answer to MKang on your whole team, you're screwed.

 

[Yellow Tokiwa]

252 SpA Parental Bond Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 276-325 (78.4 - 92.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Parental Bond Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 328-386 (93.18 - 109.65%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

RockStarFish, I think you did the calculation with 90BP psychic rather tan 85 BP.


252 SpA Parental Bond MegaAlakazam Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 261-307 (74.14 - 87.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

which is not enough, even with rocks. So that upholds the point that MegaZam is not a counter in troll or in reality (you really dont want to bet on a 60.6% chance of losing with focus blast. (30% miss, 30.6% not OHKOing)

So yeah,... don't try it really is the best recommendation.. rather try to burn it instead, although will-o-wisp always misses at the most important time for me...~

 

[newtonja]

You use PuP when Skarm switches in and then you always get to hit it with +2 Return before you get phazed out due to Whirlwind's negative priority. So if MKang gets back in at some point, Skarm won't be able to switch in again, obviously assuming Skarm hasn't Roosted etc etc and then we get into Theorymon. My point is that Skarm is annoying to MKang but if he's your only answer to MKang on your whole team, you're screwed.

yea, you're probably right. But actually skarmory has been doing a decent job, but that is because about half are running the garbage fake out set, seriously people stop putting fake out on your kangs its just not good at all

 

[farranpoison]

I've never had any problem with MKangaskhan, but then again I am running a Sableye...

MKangaskhan is sorta like Aegislash. They are Prediction: The Pokemon. If you can predict what set they're running, you're good. If not, you'll be taking some heavy damage.

However, I do not believe that MKangaskhan needs to be banned, simply because it hates status with a passion. Anything that is faster than it, and/or can take a PUP/Return/Fake Out on switch in and then status it, will cripple it for the rest of the match. Also, Defensive Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin/Iron Barbs mons are an easy way for MKangaskhan to kill itself.

 

[Punchshroom]

Actually, with PuP and Fire Punch covering most Rocks and Steels, does Mega-Kanga actually need Earthquake?

Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Return
- Fire Punch
- Power-Up Punch
- Sucker Punch

I won't deny that Earthquake is much more effective from the get-go than PuP against things like Tyranitar and Heatran, but after +2 won't PuP hit them just fine?

 

[alexwolf]

Actually, with PuP and Fire Punch covering most Rocks and Steels, does Mega-Kanga actually need Earthquake?

Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Return
- Fire Punch
- Power-Up Punch
- Sucker Punch

I won't deny that Earthquake is much more effective from the get-go than PuP against things like Tyranitar and Heatran, but after +2 won't PuP hit them just fine?

That's easily his best set in the PokeBank metagame. You can still fit Crunch over Sucker Punch if Jellicent is a huge bitch but the priority is obviously more useful overall.

 

[Iodic Acid]

I've never had any problem with MKangaskhan, but then again I am running a Sableye...

MKangaskhan is sorta like Aegislash. They are Prediction: The Pokemon. If you can predict what set they're running, you're good. If not, you'll be taking some heavy damage.

However, I do not believe that MKangaskhan needs to be banned, simply because it hates status with a passion. Anything that is faster than it, and/or can take a PUP/Return/Fake Out on switch in and then status it, will cripple it for the rest of the match. Also, Defensive Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin/Iron Barbs mons are an easy way for MKangaskhan to kill itself.

About the Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin route, Kangaskhan would have to get in four hits to kill itself, since (1/8+1/6)* 3 hits= 0.875, not enough to kill without prior damage. 252HP/0Def Ferrothorn dies to Fire Punch, or even PuP + Earthquake, both of which are only two hits. Garchomp does better; requiring both hits of Return and Sucker Punch to kill at 0HP/0Def and trading 1:1. It could invest enough in defenses to survive that combo, but doing so requires sacrificing EVs in speed, which would allow Khan to just kill it with two Returns instead. These are all 1:1 trades, but if that's all you're aiming for, why not just throw Destiny Bond on a ghost and be done with it?

 

[Nysyr]

That's easily his best set in the PokeBank metagame. You can still fit Crunch over Sucker Punch if Jellicent is a huge bitch but the priority is obviously more useful overall.

Or slap a magnezone on the team, and use crunch anyways.

 

[farranpoison]

About the Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin route, Kangaskhan would have to get in four hits to kill itself, since (1/8+1/6)* 3 hits= 0.875, not enough to kill without prior damage. 252HP/0Def Ferrothorn dies to Fire Punch, or even PuP + Earthquake, both of which are only two hits. Garchomp does better; requiring both hits of Return and Sucker Punch to kill at 0HP/0Def and trading 1:1. It could invest enough in defenses to survive that combo, but doing so requires sacrificing EVs in speed, which would allow Khan to just kill it with two Returns instead. These are all 1:1 trades, but if that's all you're aiming for, why not just throw Destiny Bond on a ghost and be done with it?

That's the point, ain't it? MKangaskhan is big and scary, but if it's gone you have a better chance at dealing with the rest of the opponent's team. And, unless that MKangaskhan player is either suicidal or stupid, they're not going to want to throw away one of their best damage dealers so easily. Using a defensive mon with Rocky Helmet will make them reconsider their attack plan, and you can use that time to threaten MKangaskhan with other threats now that it's weakened.

And besides, if you're going to put Rocky Helmet on something, you're gonna put Def EVS onto it otherwise what's the point?

Also again, Sableye. This little guy might become OU to counter all the MKangas running around. It certainly has helped me troll all the MKangaskhan users...

 

[Iodic Acid]

I was saying the defense EVs wouldn't help Garchomp vs. Kangaskhan, because if you don't outspeed it then it doesn't have to use its weaker Sucker Punch, and I think two Returns can even kill 252HP/252Def Garchomp. (just calculated, it's an 80.9% chance to KO, which means Garchomp actually wins sometimes instead of just trading 1:1. That's pretty neat!)

I secretly do hope Sableye becomes the "official" Kangaskhan counter though, just because I love Prankster mons so much.

By the way I hope I'm not coming off as combative, I'm just trying to explore various options.

 

[Thorhammer]

I decided to try out Sableye because Kangaskhan was such a pain, and I've found that it's really good against a whole variety of threats, as well as being a pain to face and actually quite a common sight. I'm not sure why it didn't get enough use to make the OU cut last gen, but if nothing else, I could see Kangaskhan pushing it over the edge and putting Sableye into OU.

 

[farranpoison]

I was saying the defense EVs wouldn't help Garchomp vs. Kangaskhan, because if you don't outspeed it then it doesn't have to use its weaker Sucker Punch, and I think two Returns can even kill 252HP/252Def Garchomp. (just calculated, it's an 80.9% chance to KO, which means Garchomp actually wins sometimes instead of just trading 1:1. That's pretty neat!)

I secretly do hope Sableye becomes the "official" Kangaskhan counter though, just because I love Prankster mons so much.

By the way I hope I'm not coming off as combative, I'm just trying to explore various options.

Oh hey, in no way I thought you were combative. I was just responding to your Ferrothorn set with no Def investment. I appreciate your calcs and such, they're quite useful. I myself have run various mons with Rocky Helmet that go full Def investment and they're quite useful against MKanga. Your thing about Garchomp is useful, though, seeing that it shouldn't run defensive. Then again, if it can deal damage to MKanga + Rough Skin damage at the cost of taking a big hit from MKanga, I'd say it's a fair trade if nothing else you run can help against MKanga initially.

And yeah bros it's finally Sableye's time to shine! I should really go update my Sableye thread about this...

 

[Mylo Xyloto]

Actually, with PuP and Fire Punch covering most Rocks and Steels, does Mega-Kanga actually need Earthquake?

Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Return
- Fire Punch
- Power-Up Punch
- Sucker Punch

I won't deny that Earthquake is much more effective from the get-go than PuP against things like Tyranitar and Heatran, but after +2 won't PuP hit them just fine?

Yeah I've been using this set a lot and its really the best set. The only time a miss Earthquake is versus King Shield Aegislash really.